Streamer Selection - Thoughts Requested Please!
I have been talking way to much to myself on my next purchase - a streamer, no DAC. I have reached the point of going round and round with the same three streamers - Innuos Pulse, Auralic G1.1 and Aurender N150. Mid $3K price range max. The Auralic G1.1 list just dropping by $1K to $2,249. The Innuos Pulse list is $3,250 and the Aurender N150 is at $3,500. Would be open to lightly used to upgrade my choices but the upgraded next step in each product line is a significant jump.
I began streaming with a Blusound Node 2021 Gen 3 which I converted last year with the PD Creative board LPSU and added an SBooster P&P Eco power supply. This was an improvement in my digital listening using the BS node for the DAC and streaming mainly TIDAL. Six months ago I added a Schitt Yggydrasil LIM (Less is More) and oh my goodness what a difference overall. I have the BS Node connected by an ethernet cable to my router. Use an iPad to run BlueOS and the Tidal app. The BS node is connected via USB to the Schitt Yggy.
I don't have a need for storage or playing CD's. Reading a few threads here have convinced me that a streamer upgrade with my system will provide better sound overall. How much is certainly an open question but I am willing to go forward. The rest of my system is a First Watt F8 amp, Modwright LS100 and Modwright 9.0 along with a Clearaudio Concept table and Zu Dirty Weekend Supremes.
Whats important to me would be the sound quality, an app with solid integration with Apple and TIDAL. I am leaning to Aurender as their players/transports are "streamers" / no DAC, they seem to integrate well with Apple and the Conductor app gets mixed reviews but mostly is well liked. I am just not sure if with my present system it makes sense to be over $3K for a streamer, although if down the line I move on from the Yggy, I wouldn't want to then add a new streamer.
Please jump in with thoughts, suggestions and let me know if I have missed any important criteria or other approaches/audio streamers. Thanks in advance.....
"Aurender is definitely good more neutral sound, but it can be bright, depending on the electronics, with the right ones it is a great option. Innuos it’s a little warmer and I like that,..." " I had the Innuos Zen MK3 for a while, nice app and also a roon endpoint, but I found it harsh compared to the Aurender." 😉 |
@12many Thanks. I am assuming that's the problem. I am using a consumer grade cable now and plan to upgrade very soon.
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@doodlebum Be sure your cable is secure and well connected. My buddy has something similar and the big heavy network cables were loose. Eithernet jacks were not designed for some of these heavy weight cables. |
I am really enjoying the N200. A vast improvement in the sound quality overall. As noted by @doodlebum I am not hearing any coloration in the music. I am not having any connectivity issues with my iPad to the Aurrender. I did make sure I was running the most recent release and its been 100%. Have been using primarily TIDAL but also Conductor. |
The streamer selection is done and dusted! Thanks to all who were part of this thread and offered advice, "coaching" and further education - especially want to thank @lalitk and @blisshifi I decided on Aurrender and took my time in searching for a lightly used N200 which I recently found. It arrived last week and is now up and running. I am streaming Tidal and experimenting with Conductor which to me is pretty straightforward. Took the advice offered here and running the N200 in Critical listening mode. |
Question on the connectivity out from the streamer to the Yggy DAC as noted by @mrmojo. As I understand it, the Aurender only provides USB out. Should I factor in SPDIF out? - I see that the Lumin Pulse offers SPDIF output in addition to USB. Will the accuracy of the clock in the streamer make the difference in an environment such as mine streaming to the Yggy?
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no rust you don't need any additional end point you just plug in the server to your dac you can run Roon or lms tocontrol the server
yes our entry level is $3500 it is a complete Roon core and Endpoint you need an ethernet connection and a usb cable.
Rhbsterno the reason there are so many usb tweeks is because many people are attempting to use a LAPTOP OR PC instead of a dedicated server, so you need some of these tweeks to prop up a pc or Mac
As per Roon you can direct the cpu to allocate its own core to running the program as per low noise we use a particular intel chip known for low power low noise applications. It is not a special chip just one that most people don't use Hope that helps ave and Troy audio intellect NJ US importers 432Evo music servers
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@lalitk A voice of reason when it comes to this complicated subject of digital streaming/DAC's and the various tradeoffs! I appreciate your wisdom on this thread and the knowledge I have gained. Closer to a decision ........ |
@lalitk So true! I tried a Jitterbug with my Dragonfly Red in my HeadFi system years ago and it totally sucked the life out of the music and I returned it. Also, I’ve read that Holo DACs are actually optimized for USB, so there ya go. |
You have long believed USB is categorically bad. Tech keeps on evolving, if one is using a dedicated streamer with USB output, USB is equally capable of delivering higher performance equivalent to SPDIF/AES and i2S. The final sound quality would also depend on implementation of these protocols within partnering DAC. Jitterbug was specifically designed for applications where general purpose laptop or computer being used as streamer as general purpose computers are inherently noisy. i2s requires careful selection of components as handshake between the two components is not given. I guess these handshake issues pave way to DDC re-clockers. IMO, they are totally unnecessary if you are using a high quality streamer + DAC. When it comes to streaming, there are so many ways to skin the cat! |
Audiotroy, I used to use USB many years ago. Sure it worked, that doesn't mean much when the sq of USB is so bad! Why are there tens/hundreds of tweaks from companies to try to improve the sq of USB? Have you heard of the reclocker? How about the off-ramp device? Femto clock? Jitterbug? IFI cable that separates the power from the data? IFI Ipurifier? Regen? I can go on, but why. Also, in some of the recent stereophile reviews of high end dacs (even the review years ago stating the dcs network module sounds better than usb), the reviewer preferred the sq using the other inputs other than USB. Also, some of the best 2023 dacs don't even include USB. Since you are a dealer. if somebody buys a dac and uses USB, you will be right there to recommend 1 of many tweak products to make usb sound better. |
let me step in here. Audiotroy, you are wrong on many fronts and don't understand how hardware/software works. "electrictrical noise"? You bring up cpu's when you tried to explain noise. The cpu's that any 3rd party server uses are not specifically built to run Roon. For example, Auralic runs/used to use the Tesla G1 cpu. Do you think the Auralic engineers went to the Tesla chip manufacturer and told them to make a unique processor to run Roon? Do you think Aurender engineers went to Intel to ask them to build the chip they use to specifically run Roon? Come on, nobody believes that, and Intel/Apple/AMD would laugh at somebody that would come in to ask them to build a specific chip to run a specific app that you would only sell a few thousand of them, if Intel/Tesla would design/build such a cpu, it would cost millions of dollars for each cpu. Aurender claims they run a low powered Intel chip and you stated the same, but if you compare Intel cpus to Apple or AMD Ryzen cpus, intel is not low powered, why do you think Apple went away from Intel. Another misconception you have is your statement: "We run Roon in its own CPU core". You have no control over this, it's how Roon is built, its out of your hands. Roon uses multithreading which utilizes a single cpu, it isn't written to multitask/parallel process over multiple cpu's. This is why the bigger the music library is/ or the more endpoints you have, Roon will eventually saturate the cpu its running on, that's why if you have a large music library, you will need a faster cpu. Most enterprise software multitasks/parallel processes over all the cpu's in the server to prevent such bottlenecks.If you look at your system resources running Roon, you will notice that cpu is getting saturated whereas the other cores are idle. Your years of testing are flawed IMO. What would you test? What does your testing actually consist of? You bring up cpu's, do you actually test the noise difference between an M2 Apple cpu vs a Tesla G1 cpu vs the low powered Intel cpu? No. Do you actually benchmark different flavors of linux? No. Every streamer is a server, it has a cpu, memory, and an OS. How many iterations of each of these components have you tested? Did you test the Tesla G1 cpu using Ubuntu v18 vs Ubuntu v20? How about Fedora? Bottom line, you don't know which cpu is the noisiest. You don't know which OS is the most efficient or the best OS for say USB or i2s. I do know that most of the streaming servers run a proprietary/tainted version of Linux, and with this, you either have to have the manufacturer update/or fix any OS issues, or if they are out of business, you will have to hire a Linux hacker to tweak the system. I don't use any hacked/proprietary/tainted Linux on any of my servers. |
@audiotroy - I am a new here but believe your above response was directed at comments by @rbstehno so I have linked him by the @ here so he can view your post. From your earlier post on page one I see that you are a vendor and from what I could pick up from the verbiage, the streamer you are suggesting is the 432 EVO music server. I have no issue at all with vendor responses and welcome information to assist me in my selection. In this case I had to take the initiative by doing the work myself to figure out who you were, the product represented and seek out the reviews/info as there were no links in your post. I had a bit of confusion in following your comments. I went to the review in the Absolute Sound review and figured out that the $7,800 price for the EVO server you mentioned was EVO's middle tier offering and not their entry level offering. A bit of time in searching showed that EVO designates their entry level server as the Standard for $3,500 - which is in my range. You did point out the platforms upgradeability which would be a big plus. Net is the user management software of either LMS or Roon for the EVO is not in my wheelhouse at this time. I also understand that in addition a to whatever management software is selected, a local player would be required to access Roon or LMS in order to establish the EVO's operating parameters. I am not ready to take all this on and simply want to add a streamer to utilize Tidal. I am sure that EVO servers are top tier products and wish you success in your marketing efforts. |
rbstehnoyou have a lot of misconceptions "iMO, Mac minis are much quiete"r no they are not we are not talking about fan noise but electrictrical noise which is what EVERY dedicated server is. Also, I believe these factors that weigh heavily on sq: a server of any kind in your audio room is bad, no this is wrong if the server has been designed for low noise rfi t makes no difference where the server is located
Our servers combat noise in a number of ways first the cpu is a low noise cpu designed to run Roon efficiently without requiring an excessivily fast cpu the greater the cpu’s processing power the greater the noise We employ a 3d printed all copper cpu shield designed to shield the cpu and eliminate rfi radiation.
Our OS is one of the keys to running roon to maximize sound quality We run Roon in its own CPU core We run machine housekeeping on its own CPU core We employ a third core for fille allocation and caching.it is for all of these reasons a dedicated server will outperform a mac mini, a mac mini is a great little computer but it has not been designed or sound quality.
manufacturer’s so i2s doesn’t mean everything will work, where usb is guaranteed to work.
so it comes down to design by the way the server is built We have sold and tested: Aurender, auraylic, Sotm, baetis and laufer tehnnik,lumin and Innous al vs mac minis and custom pc solutions
so long story short we have years of actual testing.
Dave and Troy Audio intellect nj us importers 432evo music servers |
Norust. I respect everyone's opinions who have moved on to more expensive streamers. But I did what you did and stopped at the Bluesound Node with PD Creative PS and Denafrips Pontus 12th anniversary. It sounds so good to me but when I wanted to step up- I went with a Bluesound Node X and a Teddy Pardo PS which has not arrived yet. I like the Bluesound ecosystem and OS as well.... |
@cat_doorman Great insight! thanks... I was wondering the same thing about the hefty $1k discount off list on the Auralic G1.1. The price makes this compelling and agree that the discount did not all of a sudden place a G1.1 in a subpar category. BTW love your choice of speakers :) |
@mahler123 I realize this phrase "integrated" with Apple was confusing and not the best of words, I did clarify this above - about 9 posts up :) but I know this is a busy thread. Net is that all I meant was having the streamer app ( i.e. Conductor, Sense, etc ) be available to download from Apple and run on an iPad. All of the final choices I have learned allow for this. |
I actually just bought an Aries G1.1 as an upgrade to a Node2i. I had been leaning that way, but the recent discount made me jump in. I’m not sure if it’s a precursor to discontinuation, but I’ve seen used G1s for more than the discounted price. AURALiC seems to be angling higher end with the G3, but I think there was a lot of trickle down from the G2 that made it into the G1.1. Either way, it didn’t suddenly get worse just because of the discount. It feel hefty, and seems well built. It may be my imagination, or it could be finally running my Qutest with the USB input, but I think it’s better soundstage and separation. I run Zu Soul Supremes driven by either an LTA MZ3 as an integrated or as a pre into other amps. I did get the SSD but haven’t started setting up a library yet. One of the pluses for me was the wireless connection. A lot of other streamers don’t have a wireless connection, much less a stated preference for it. I’m not up for rewiring my house for Ethernet so a solid WiFi connection is a big plus. I’ve heard a lot of whinging about most streamers’ apps (from people not running Roon). I’m still getting used to the app, but it seems on par with BluOS. There’s always a learning curve. It sounds like iOS only won’t be an issue for you so that’s good. I use Qobuz so I can’t tell you how well it integrates with Tidal. |
@norust I had a similar streaming journey with several computers and a Node 2i upgraded with the PD Creative board and a SBooster ECO linear power supply. It sounded quite good. I’ve not heard your Yggy, I use a Chord Qutest DAC with an Hugo M-Scaler. Upgrade your digital coax output to the DAC. I used Audioquest Carbon and then a Nordost Silver Shadow. Each was a step up. If you use USB, definitely upgrade it. Especially if you go to an Aurender N150. I’ve now used a N150 for over 6 months. The sonics are outstanding, 5 on a 5 point scale. However, the Conductor App is easy to use but lacks in a key area for me. I listen to mostly jazz. The Conductor App has decent information on the main artist in a song but 90%+ of the time there is nothing about the associated artists in a song or album. Same for classic rock. Who’s playing the sax? Forget it, you can’t find out on the Conductor App if it’s not the main artist. Now I understand why people love Roon. Customer support from Aurender is outstanding! Not only have I seen many improvements to the Conductor App but they are great on individual support requests as well. Thanks Kelly! Music discovery is good on the Conductor App because of “Allow Auto Play” which adds different songs/artists based on what you’ve played when you hit end of queue. Use the native music service connections on Conductor for the best sound quality, not Apple Airplay or other apps. I also used an Apple Mac Mini so I can add info there if you are considering that. There’s pros and cons like on everything else. |
@mattmiller Thanks for the description of just streaming on the Aurender. Since I am presently only streaming with Tidal and not initially planning on copying or playing music on a hard drive it would make for a very simple start!
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I use a Aurender X100L with a external DAC....You don’t use the conductor app when streaming music, you just have to start the app and make sure its connected, then minimize and start Tidal or Qobuz and your good. You only use the Conductor app when copying or playing music through the internal hard drives.
BTW the sound is really amazing , im listening to (Tidal) CD quality sound right now and its impressive, I may switch to Studio quality later. However I thought Qobuz has excellent sound with just the basic subscription.
Matt M |
We can offer you the 432Evo Servers he Evo is a full Roon core and endpoint and it has been designed from its inception to run Ronn:
in fact we are one of the very few servers designed to explloit a multi core cpu for better Roon sound quality: we have created a proprietary os that runs Roon in its own cpu core, while using another core to run housekeeping and backend processes wile another core addresses streaming file allocation and caching. We have actually compared our 432Evo Aeon $7800, vs the 12k Aurender N20 Everyone who heard the demo felt the Aeon produced a dramatically better sound out of the same Dac. The Aeon was more three dimensional, and had greater depth of field, and the midrange was richer, all in all the Aeon was a more engaging sounding server.
On another note, we have a few advantages over aurender and other servers:
1: We are an upgradable, modular platform, this means you can upgrade an Aeon to our flagship Master. Our Master 16k is shockingly close to the $30k Taiko extreme so we represent a server which is very close to the worlds best server yet is half the price. The upgradable modular nature of our servers means as better parts become available, we can swap out new parts so we have a platform you can grow with. We compared our $7800Aeon to a 25k Innous Statement with upgraded power supply after AXPONA at a Chicago dealers’ showroom. all listeners concluded the Aeon sounded just as good as the Statement. Now consider our Master sounds even better, yet still costs considerably less than the Statement. This means you can start with an Aeon and upgrade to a Master later.
This also means our products can evolve so if a better sound card or Clock card comes out, we can easily upgrade our server. also, our Master actually contains 3 separate toroidal transformers which is far superior to Innous single transformer design
As per is2 being better it is not better then usb and the lack of standards makes it impossible to support. we have done everything possible to maximize performance while eliminating digital noise.
dave and Troy audio intellect NJ us importers 432 Evo music servers. |
OP here ..... Wow, impressive number of replies to my request. Very thankful and enlightened. Appreciate all who have contributed. A shout out to @peipaul as his experience with several of the streamers I am contemplating and his environment with the Yggy LIM provide me with somewhat of a baseline. A clarification on my environment re Apple and a few questions based on the replies -
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Keep in mind that if you're using USB or I2S to connect your streamer to your DAC, you're defaulting to the DAC's clock rather than making use of the clock in the streamer. That may or may not influence your decision about how much to pay, since there are lots of other factors that could influence your decision. But as far as accuracy of the bits streamed, you're now defaulting to the Yggy by going USB. Buying a streamer because it has a better clock would mean a move to SPDIF to take advantage of your purchase. |
Larry, this is absolutely wild. My “extremely qualified” advice is to listen to your system - and enjoy it; our systems are better than 99% of what the general population has exposure to (let alone on a daily basis). I’d be curious to know your friend’s thought process - or maybe lack of awareness - when he purchased the three-way speakers and then sent you an article confirming his purchase and your perceived loss. Hopefully this was unintentional on his part. If not, I don’t think that’s normal behavior and it’s more of a reflection of him than you and your great speakers. You literally need to turn up the volume and drown out the noise (internal & external) on you killer system.
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I have a BlueSound Node 2i. I tried an inexpensive DAC and found it sounded better without. I really wonder if the sound is significantly better with these expensive streamers? I stream Tidal and since MQA disappeared, I wonder if the old MQA files play hi-res. The sound from these expensive streams would have to be significantly better to invest this kind of money. I had a friend who auditioned speakers for a year with me for a year. I finally settled for Paradigm Prestige speakers. I didn’t know at the time they were 2 1/2 way. Four weeks later this friend attacked an article from Stereophile Magazine explaining why 3 way were better than 2 1/2 way. Shortly after he told me he purchased a pair of 3 way SALK 3 way speakers. Since then I added a pair of REL SHO’s and they helped. However, I have stopped listening to my system because I think I should have purchased 3 way. |
MOON 280D MIND2 by SIMAUDIO bested my BRYSTON two-box player & DAC stack. - highly recommended. REVIEWS: https://darko.audio/2021/07/refined-precision-moon-by-simaudios-280d-streaming-dac/ https://www.stereonet.com/uk/reviews/simaudio-moon-280d-dac-review
- if you elect within the first year to upgrade to higher model unit, SIMAUDIO will grant you a 100% trade-in on your initial purchase toward the upgrade, - if you elect within the 2nd year to move a higher model unit, SIMAUDIO will grant you a 75% trade-in on the upgrade..
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I'm in the same boat as OP, looking at same models. Another wildcard is the Matrix Audio Element S (pure streamer, no DAC) that has an i2S output that is compatible with Denafrips DACS and others. Roon certification still pending, but I think the bigger concern is their app. The recent price drop on the Auralic G1.1 streamer had me leaning that direction, but still on the fence.Innous entry level models don't seem to be a large enough step up.
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I run an Aurender N100H with a Yggdrasil (OG) for several years and haven’t had the itch to upgrade. It sounds GREAT. I agree that when I got the Yggdrasil it was a gob-smacking upgrade. Macs may be quieter than most pc’s, but when I replaced my Mac laptop with the Aurender it was another astonishing increase in sound quality. Streaming high-res or well recorded red book Quboz sounds better than cds or vinyl on my system. |
mgrif104259 posts As far as build quality, I think Aurender is best in class at most any price point.
Nothing out there beats a Mytek Empire. |
Oops, forgot one. I had the Innuos Zen MK3 for a while, nice app and also a roon endpoint, but I found it harsh compared to the Aurender.
One other point, I have a bit of hearing sensitivity, and started using Roon just for the DSP. With the Aurender, I don't need any dsp. U2 mini streaming also don't need dsp so much. |
