“if copper cost over $1000 / oz, it would be the most desired audiophile wire metal BY FAR….We take for granted that it’s so good, and affordable.”
@mulveling
Agreed. I believe lot of our choices are driven by our personal preferences, budget and system constraints. When it comes to audio, there are so many ways to skin the cat.
Speaking of SUT’s, there is a brand from France called Sculpture. They are appear to be well built and reasonably priced. Don’t get much press in US but they are quite popular across the pond. I plan to try one once the dust settles on my choice of cart and phono.
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@lalitk
dealer I worked with on Swissonor - Constantin at Atelier 13 - carries Sculpture as well.
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@mulveling : I certainly respect your knowledge and your ears, and those of Kevin Hayes, too, having been a VAC man myself for a long time. But I have to disagree about the LL1931Ag. I recently picked up a last-gen K&K Maxxed Out with the silver Lundahls. I love ’em, finding them deeper, more resolving, and more "lit from within," to use a hackneyed audiophile trope, than the copper version, which I’ve had for years in a K&K Premium SUT. Just goes to show, to each their ears!
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@mulveling : I certainly respect your knowledge and your ears, and those of Kevin Hayes, too, having been a VAC man myself for a long time. But I have to disagree about the LL1931Ag. I recently picked up a last-gen K&K Maxxed Out with the silver Lundahls. I love ’em, finding them deeper, more resolving, and more "lit from within," to use a hackneyed audiophile trope, than the copper version, which I’ve had for years in a K&K Premium SUT. Just goes to show, to each their ears!
@wrm57 that's fair! Agree the LL1931Ag does indeed dig deeper; just wasn't the right tonal balance in my system for my ears.
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@mulveling : " just wasn't the right tonal balance in my system for my ears. "
Normally subjectivity is the personal characteristic that dominates the audio world against objectivity because normally too silver win over cooper but I can attest my self experiences like that yours only between different SUT manufacturers where the cooper Denon Murata outperforms several silver wired SUTs as the Audio Note and made it easily....
Now in your case is in the same model where I imagine that both SUTs shares the same design and this gives you the opportunity to think and make a system deep search trying to find out why what in " paper " should be better it's not through your first hand experiences other that the silver one was not inside specs for whateever reasons. At least is what I do in cases as this one. Everyday is a day to learn or confirm what we already know.
R.
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@mdalton
Thanks for the heads up. I may pick up the Sculpture copper version if I end up with Fuuga and Bordeaux carts 🤣
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@lewm : As you know I owned 3 original MC2000, yes I like it. All came directly from Ortofon to me in México ( no distributor in my country. ).
In those times no one not even reviewers looks at the stylus/cantilever joint under microscope so I can't attest on it. One of those samplezs made a trip to VDH for boron cantilever and it ouperformed the other two.
Now, i still ownthe MC20MK2 that's a model that appeared before the 2000, it has aluminum cantilever and loking with my microscope it came glued and I still own the 3000MK2 model that was in the market after the 2000 and comes too with aluminum cantilever and the stylus is glued.
Next is the only picture that I can get from the net but I think we can't be sure if its press fitted or glued:
3523866-a44425b6-mega-rare-cartridge-ortofon-mc2000-and-t2000-with-boxes.jpg (1100×824) (canuckaudiomart.com)
Due to the other Ortofon cartridges samples I have on hand seems to me a little weird that the 2000 was not glued.
@kennyc the PS audio is at high end market niche almost inexpensive unit that's a true challenge to other SS very top units with a price tag over 50K ( this was what reported M.Fremer. ).
In the other side and with all respect to him I think that not only you but no audiophile can take really seriously a gentleman like @lalitk that ( as he said/posted ) had not direct experience with SUT and who told you:
" I would encourage you to try SUT. " @lalitk this truly creates " confussion " and not the facts I posted and that you said creates " that ".
R.
R.
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Personally I like a head amp/phono stage with LOMC over a SUT. A good gain stage to me sounds better then a SUT. A good analogy would be an active preamp compared to a passive preamp. Both can be great under the right build quality and situation. But for me the active is more engaging.
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@glennewdick
What are some of the brands that are offering good head amp/phono stage. My Google search did not show any good results. Thank you!
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@lalitk
Just for one, not particularly expensive example, I believe the MC dude of their phono stages are active gain designs. Interestingly though, they just announce a new, separate SUT - the Argentum. Haven’t seen any reviews yet, but very interesting - silver wound but not crazy expensive. They are a very interesting company, handled by a bunch of dealers I think highly of.
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Simaudio
Sutherland (also make outboard head amps operating in current or voltage mode)
Pass XP series
Atma-sphere MP1
J&R 3180 Phonolinepreamp
Manley Steelhead or Chinook
Goldnote
DarTzeel
Many, many more.... (Mind has gone blank.)
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oops again! I swear I’m not day-drinking, I forgot to say brand: Fezz Audio. To add to @lewm list, Graham Slee and Rothwell also make pretty inexpensive head amp, btw.
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@mdalton
LOL! I figured it out by googling the SUT. It’s a very interesting brand. I love the uncluttered design throughout their product lineup. No idea how they sound but interesting nevertheless. Their 300B mono’s is definitely worth the audition if I had the higher efficiency speakers.
@lewm ..thanks for the suggestions.
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@lalitk
haven’t heard the brand yet myself, but they’re on my list if/when I ever replace the synthesis ensemble in my big rig. recently spent time with a dealer in NC - Ember Audio - who believes their stuff competes with any other tube gear up to $10k, so potentially a great value. And yes, their aesthetic is perfect for my sunroom!
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@lewm : " , many more.... (Mind has gone blank.) "
PS Audio Stellar deserves to be in your list. Btw, really good that you posted Simaudio as and excellent unit.
@lalitk : " offering good head amp/phono stage. My Google search did not show any good results. "
Not show because does not exist. What exist are phono stages with active high gain for MC and MM cartridges. The lewm list named these kind of units.
@mikelavigne posted in this thread about the phono stage active high gain design that he owns:
" they are very fine and i do use them and appreciate their low noise and dynamics. " I can add that no passive unit can't even or beats those chjaracteristics and several more.
lalitk: @glennewdick posted :
" A good gain stage to me sounds better then a SUT. A good analogy would be an active preamp compared to a passive preamp. Both can be great under the right build quality and situation. But for me the active is more engaging. "
and other than me and lew and the ones posted here other two gentlemans have the same kind opinion for active high gain phono stages.
R.
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@lewm : What do you think of your 2000 press fitted cantilever: it's and original cartridge or could be that you bougth a retipped sample?
Thank's in advance.
R.
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“their stuff competes with any other tube gear up to $10k, so potentially a great value”
@mdalton
I am inclined to agree on value proposition. There are plenty of good offerings coming out of Eastern Europe in last few years. Now if you consider Fezz Audio, they will need to add electric blue to their color palette….lol! My top picks would be Big Calm and EverGreen 😊
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haha! I prefer to think of my stuff as Lamborghini blue (though technically it’s “traffic blue”, which is RAL code #5017). But among their colors, I might go with Republica (white). would look very cool.
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My MC2000 cantilever and stylus are OEM, according to the seller. And the assembly looks like on-line photos of OEM.
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You was lucky to found out at NOS of that cartridge. Good.
R.
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@mdalton Lamborghini is a tractor company. It should be agricultural blue.
There is no question in my mind that active phono stages are superior in every way. They are much less finicky in terms of placement, are quieter, have more gain and are more dynamic. Other sonic qualities are subjective but to my ears they also sound better and image better.
Missing from Lew's list are;
The CH Precision P1 and P10
The Channel D Seta and Lino stages.
Audio Research.
McIntosh
VAC
It is much easier to make a transformer. I even made my own using top of the line Sowter cans. I could never make an active phono stage. I have placed Sowter cans inside preamps with MM phono stages with decent, but not spectacular results.
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VAC
It is much easier to make a transformer. I even made my own using top of the line Sowter cans. I could never make an active phono stage. I have placed Sowter cans inside preamps with MM phono stages with decent, but not spectacular results.
VAC has never made a head-amp, to my knowledge. Their phono stages have always used Lundahl SUT’s for MC gain. I think they recognize MC gain using tubes is a very bad idea, due to noise and the difficulty of tube selection. And SS isn’t their thing - closest they got was a tube DAC (the DAC chip being SS) which was discontinued long ago.
EAR made a head-amp unit "The Head" which is discontinued and hard to find used (and sought after by some) - supposedly very good.
Hagerman makes their head-amp "Piccolo", now in voltage and current mode flavors. VERY good sounding for the money (cheap), though the voltage mode units aren’t the lowest in noise floor (that’s their weakness). They made many prior iterations of their voltage mode Piccolo, going back many years now. I just recently learned Hagerman once made a short run of SUT boxes with the Stevens and Billington TX103. VERY nice transformers, hard to find / obtain now. The Bent Audio Mu used this same transformer.
It’s easy to stuff SUT cans in a box. It’s not easy to manufacture the transformers themselves - i.e. windings and (especially) core laminations for units with laminated cores (Lundahl's amorphous core models do not use laminations).
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@mijostyn : AR, VAC and MAC use SUTs ( passive not active designs. ). In that list I can add: Parasound, Levinson, Boulder, Gryphon, D'Angostino.
" It is much easier to make a transformer ", yes way easy but audio phono stage manufacturers do not build the SUT, they buy from different SUT sources. So way way more easy to design a phono stage with.
R.
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@rauliruegas don't forget Constellation!
@dogberry I have several BluRay and DVD operas and my system doubles as a theater. Believe it or not, excepting rare theaters like Teatro alla Scala Milano, I actually prefer the sound at home. This is a common occurrence with Rock shows. The acoustics in most of the venues these occur in are awful and the sound at home is better. Seeing the show and the Opera especially are key. Operas and plays were that period's motion pictures, the visuals are very important. You know for certain Carman was just murdered by her lover when you see it. What torments Pagliacci so at the end of the opera?
@lalitk Be careful what you wish for. It would be nice if you could make that comparison before spending your money. There are many of us here that not only won't use a SUT but also shy away from tube phono stages. Myself and @rauliruegas are examples. Perhaps others will chime in.
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“There are many of us here that not only won’t use a SUT but also shy away from tube phono stages.”
@mijostyn
And there are many who do use SUT and tube phono….to each their own, right! Your point well taken on not committing to spend before I vetting the components in the analog chain.
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@lalitk That is true. Now I am going to be politically incorrect. You have to look at the demographics. Many of us have tube preamps with an onboard MM phono stage. Most of us are price sensitive and we are going to take the least expensive path that is acceptable. The popularity of Hana moving coil cartridges is a good example. Adding an SUT is the least expensive way to add moving coil capability. Having said this there are some mighty expensive SUTs out there and I have heard some mighty fine systems using them with great results. I still think these systems would be even better with a SS phono stage, but you are talking much more money and in some cases crazy amounts of money. There are units now like the Channel D Lino C 3.0 which are insanely good, A+ good, that cost less than $5000 and they will accept any MC cartridge. SUTs will not. They have to be designed for the impedance of the cartridge within just a few ohms or the performance will be unacceptable. The SUT I have was designed for very low impedance cartridges. Mine works well with the Lyra Atlas SL but sounds awful with the MC Diamond and Hyperion MR. The safest way to go is to purchase SUTs made by the same manufacturer as the cartridge and if you go with a cartridge by another manufacturer make sure they match within a few ohms. This is not the the step up ratio, 1 to 10, 1-20 and so forth.
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rauliruegas
... AR, VAC and MAC use SUTs ( passive not active designs. ) ...
You're mistaken. There's no SUT in my ARC Ref Phono 2SE. It uses an FET on the MC input. I'm pretty sure this is common on ARC phono preamps.
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You’re mistaken. There’s no SUT in my ARC Ref Phono 2SE. It uses an FET on the MC input. I’m pretty sure this is common on ARC phono preamps.
@cleeds Correct - at least modern (and relatively recent) ARC Reference phono stages use a JFET based MC gain stage (voltage mode). I had a Reference 3SE. Its MC mode (called High Gain) sounded very good, but I still preferred a SUT - the MC mode is simply "leaner" sounding. I like a slightly fat, lush sound - and I don’t need to hear for the 1,000th time how this is wrong. The SUT was *easily* quieter, too. Fremer mentioned some susceptibility to EMI / RFI noise in its MC mode. I heard this very easily with a plasma TV in the next room. Sounded like demonic garble noises with the TV on - and went away when off. Also found its inherent noise floor would start to make itself "known" with cartridges below 0.3mV. Again, SUT’s had a distinct advantage here. I do listen loud - audiophiles who keep their levels below 85dB may not notice these issues as readily. That said, once you add groove noise, it’s debatable how much this actually matters.
The Ref 3SE’s Low Gain mode is still probably the best MM stage I’ve heard. Really, really good with a SUT. I’ve always liked the 6N30 tube, in line stages too. It is very linear and clean; not as fat and lush as other tubes. That’s right! I’m allowed to like "fat" sound in some cases and "cleaner" sound in others. It’s all just preferences when we hear the end product anyways. 6N30 just strikes the right sonic balance between traditional tubes and SS for me.
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Mijostyn, I am curious what you mean when you use the phrase "match by a few ohms", where you applied the term to SUTs.
As to tubes vs SS, I think you would have trouble supporting the notion that the best tube phono stages are categorically less expensive than the best SS phono stages. For example, the Ypsilon VPS 100 costs $30K and only develops 39db of gain. VAC make some high end units, too, and there are others I don’t know about. I know that Channel D make a $90K SS phono that does both current and voltage gain, and I don’t know how much some of the stratospherically expensive SS stages, like Soulution (sp?) and others cost. (Has anyone heard any of those?) I think Raul mentioned someone brought the top of the line Channel D unit to his home, and they compared it to his 3180 Phonolinepreamp; results in his group of listeners favored the latter unit, and I believe it because the 3160 is the best sounding SS phono stage I have ever heard in my home environment. Which is to say it’s the only one I have auditioned that I could live with (and am living with) long term, among those I have heard. I’m a tube guy at heart but with some qualifications, like OTLs only, for amplification and a preference for tube/SS hybrid phono stages to achieve high phono gain. This is a bit different from the ARC approach (and which is used by a myriad of other manufacturers) of using a FET to add gain at the front end; I prefer a hybrid cascode input for high gain. On the low end, the market is replete with inexpensive SS phono stages (less than $500) that people swear by and which typically offer high gain. Op amps make it easy and cheap to do. But could we (you and I) live with any of those? The only tube phono in that low price range I can think of is the Bellari, and it’s MM only. Anyway, I have avoided SUTs for 45 years so far, but I never would say not to take that route. I am sure it can work beautifully. (Which is also what you said.)
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@cleeds : AR, yes you are rigth because is not a tube but and hybrid one. My mistake.
R.
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@mijostyn
Thanks for your recommendation on Lino C which BTW is very similar to Konus Audio Vinyle phono. And I am auditioning / comparing this phono with Allnic in next week or so. As far as SUT’s goes, gotta get it out of my mind by inserting in the signal chain ahead the two phono’s (Allnic and Whest) with contrasting topologies.
If I really like what I hear with EMIA SUT (loaner) then I will be ordering Etsuro Transformer to mate with Etsuro Bordeaux cartridge.
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@mulveling stated "EAR made a head-amp unit "The Head" which is discontinued and hard to find used (and sought after by some) - supposedly very good".
I have been very curious about this model for many many years, it is a SUT and is produced at a time before EAR was an Incorporated Company.
Not to long ago an infrequent attendee of the local HiFi Group brought their bought at the time of production for £200 TX 4 'The Head' SUT, which the owner referred to the model as being 'The Brick', to be demo'd.
The TX 4 was compared to a few SUT's which I will say as a comparison. The short in length demo's showed the TX 4 to be much more extrovert and out in the room, voluminous and room filling are a very noticeable trait from its presentation.
During the short Demo's the TX 4, seemed to draw parity in a comparison with a Group Members own design Head Amp. These Two both produced very Transparent room filling sound. The TX 4 might be the least Rich in Tonality SUT I have been in front of?
The following is apparently a extract of a correspondence being had with TDP in 2016.
"I will try to find old literature , how dare you say I did not design lock stock and barrel everything in the HEAD TX4?
I do all my own transformers not like my competitors who go to mr transformer man please make me transformer! I designed the step up device in 1979 to be the best in the world period. More bandwidth more headroom better square wave etc. Still no one has matched it. If I had to market today I would have to price it at £3000. I made about 200 units. I will not disclose winding details or core type other than usual mumetal 78% Nickel. The highest inductance core material".
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For yet more food for thought, Steve Gutenberg recently reviewed a new Zesto Tube Phone Preamp, but he intentionally chose the MM one not the more expensive MM/MC one, but instead used, you guessed it, SUTs with it.
You guys with MC carts, have fun.
ZESTO's new Tube Phono Preamp is a KNOCKOUT! (youtube.com)
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“You guys with MC carts, have fun.”
@moonwatcher
That’s the idea and partly the reason for this amazing hobby!
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@lalitk
a little more time with the new SUT today. not just more dynamic - more of everything. I was missing out on a lot of Koetsu magic previously. Very cool. Looking forward to hearing about your experience.
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Steve Gutenberg recently reviewed a new Zesto Tube Phone Preamp, but he intentionally chose the MM one not the more expensive MM/MC one, but instead used, you guessed it, SUTs with it.
The more expensive Zesto phonos use a SUT internally with the internal MM phono section. They use Jensen transformers.
The likely reason he chose the MM only phono is so that he can use his own choice of SUT.
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@mdalton
Thank you for your sharing your experience. Did you end up lowering ratio or found factory setting to be more acceptable?
I am hoping to find a perfect setting for Bordeaux / Fuuga with Allnic H-6500 before I purchase Etsuro or Sculpture SUT’s. The EMIA/Fuuga pairing should be a good indicator if H-6500 is not quite all there. I have high expectations for H-6500….it all unfolds on Labor Day weekend.
On another note, I am going straight from 301 motor to power conditioner (bypassing the IEC). My dealer bought a very high quality Lithe Copper Power cable. I am going to terminate this cable with Furutech FI-28 (G) plug.
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Steve Gutenberg is a mid Fi guy which is a good thing. He reviews equipment that most of us can buy. He prefers a more romantic, bloomy sound. The Zesto phono stage is a great example using four 12AX7s. I understand the leaning towards SUTs and I have heard some great systems utilizing SUTs. I also prefer simpler gear with fewer switches and connections. My favorite phono stage for two decades was the AR PH3-SE with RAM ultra low noise 6922s. It was killer with MM cartridges but did not have enough gain for most MC cartridges. I tried it with SUTs but always preferred the sound with high output cartridges. I have to point out that it is highly likely that a cartridge like the Soundsmith Voice will outperform a MC/SUT combination. It will be more dynamic and have a vastly superior signal to noise ratio. The situation does not tilt towards high gain phono stages and MC cartridges until you are spending in the vicinity upwards of $15,000 and most of us are not spending that much.
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“The situation does not tilt towards high gain phono stages and MC cartridges until you are spending in the vicinity upwards of $15,000 and most of us are not spending that much.”
@mijostyn
Your point well noted. I am beyond the $15K mark but still below my initial goal of staying under $30K.
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@lalitk 30K gets you an awfully fine phono stage and cartridge. With that kind of money I would get a loaded Channel S Lino C 3.0. and an Air Tight Opus 1 or a Lyra Atlas SL or maybe even an Ortofon MC Diamond.
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@mijostyn
Sorry for not being clear earlier, I meant $30K for complete analog setup. This includes, TT, Tonearm, Cart and Phono.
Your recommendation for cart and phono duly noted.
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In that case I would get a Sota Sapphire, Kuzma 4 point 9, Channel D Lino C loaded and an Air Tight Opus One or Lyra Atlas SL
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@mijostyn : That you like to live in the " error " does not means that other gentlemans could do it even that many stay as you are.
The old current phono stage design is a problem, first because the cartridge is a voltage item and second because it does not works with all LOMC cartridge and even the Ortofon MC Diamond that is one outside the limitations on current design you posted here that you like more in the voltage design but not only you say that because many owners of CH phono stage with both options prefers the voltage one and other gentleman in this thread that own both kind of separate current and voltage units design prefers the voltage one.
mijos it’s the same as those gentlemans that like to own a dedicated SUT for an specific cartridge what is way way and high limitation and only justified if you will live for ever with that only cartridge and we all know that almost no one lives with one cartridge but over the months or years to come always we buy new cartridges with different characteristics but as I said: to each his own. Fortunatelly not my problem.
R.
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@mijostyn
Are you trying to be funny….why would I give up Garrard 301 and Reed 3P tonearm and consider getting “Sota Sapphire, Kuzma 4 point 9”.
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@lalitk I stand strong in my expressed certitude, that the usual use of Audio Equipment as a means to replay recorded music is only a Hobby/Enthusiasm to participated in as a means of entertainment, no different to how any other experience had of encountering music or music/song is expected to offer. I fail to see how the usual use of Audio Equipment is able to be suggested to be anything else but a method to be entertained.
There is a goal to be achieved, which is to create an end sound that is clearly understood as a being a performance which is recorded and able to produce Music or Music/Song.
With the permutations available today for the Sources, Amplification, Speakers, there is much to be read that very strongly suggests there is not a ubiquitous path taken by individuals for their selecting particular devices for the assembly of the Audio System.
It can be seen on regular occasion, especially within forums, that an individuals choice being made for devices to be used in their Audio System are not able to be embraced, accepted or encouraged by another. Is this not quite strange as a outcome, when mostly all of the individuals in communication, are all sharing about what they have chose as devices to entertain themselves only.
It does seem that through creating increased experiences of available Audio related devices. That different options for devices being experienced in use, have for some become a more attractive device to wed themselves to.
One person or a group of individuals expressing their preference for a particular device. Certainly does not mean it is a better choice over another's, who is not showing intent to experience such a device.
From my own end, I am yet to encounter a DD, ID, BD TT, in the past 30+ Years that has not been able as a Source to replay recorded Music or Music/Song to a level that has not been able to be enjoyed. The same can be said for Amplification and Speakers encountered in the same timeline which have been used with TT's as a Source. I do totally agree, one permutation type of Source > Amp > Speakers will on many occasions produce an end sound that can have a noticeable difference to another type of permutation of Audio Devices having been assembled.
My usage of Idler Drives have a long term history, and more than one ID is still owned.
When ID's are worked with in the way you have selected for your 301. My experiences of doing work that comes from a similar thought, as well as experiencing work carried out quite similar to the methods chosen by yourself. Strongly suggest there is something very attractive to be discovered.
I would very much like to experience the Reed TA as well. My local HiFi Group has a member who is also a Proprietor of a Audio Business. This Business supplies TA's of which there are Reed TA Models offered. To date the Group Sessions I have been able to attend has been demo'd a TA from this individual, being the Glanz MK 1200S. Which at a later date, and after a selection of TA's being trialed, inclusive of my loaned SME IV, become a group members TA. The 1200S, ended up being used with a Miyajima Cart'. Experiencing this TA>Cart' has always been very much enjoyed as a experience.
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@lalitk You do not want me to answer that question.
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@mijostyn
It sounds like you got carried away by your love for Sota Sapphire, Kuzma 4 point 9 ….appreciate the good-natured exchange! If there's anything you'd like to add to SUT+phono discussion, feel free to share. I'm all ears!
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I fail to see how the usual use of Audio Equipment is able to be suggested to be anything else but a method to be entertained.
Music is more than entertainment for some of us: it is nutritious, sustaining our spirit just as food sustains the body.
By the way, congratulations on your quick recovery! (Maybe it's the music.....)
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