Step Up Transformers….Are they Worth the Trouble?

@mijostyn 

It sounds like you got carried away by your love for Sota Sapphire, Kuzma 4 point 9 ….appreciate the good-natured exchange! If there's anything you'd like to add to SUT+phono discussion, feel free to share. I'm all ears!

@mervo

Thank you for sharing your experience with NC’s SUT. One question, did you receive any consultation from Ned prior to ordering the SUT. How was your buying experience with Ned...I noticed buying options are available through ebay only.

@br3098 

Would you provide some brands that impressed you. Thank you. 

@lewm…appreciate your vote on Dave Slagle. 

@mikelavigne 

Appreciate your candid feedback. I will take you up on your offer to connect with your friend and reach out to Dave Slagle for a customized SUT solution. 

“trans impedance phono”
@willy-t

Thanks for your recommendation. I already have Konus Audio Vinyle Phono (trans impedance) on my list to audition with Fuuga cart.
http://www.konus-audio.com/vinyle-3000mc.html

@jazdoc

Thank you for chiming in. That’s exactly I wanted to know! I concur with your feedback on Fuuga but find your assessment on Bordeaux bit perplexing. Other users and reviewers have not reported this cart to be analytical. Very detailed, slightly dark and full bodied sound overall but not analytical. I wonder, what could possibly the reason for Bordeaux to sound slightly analytical in your system…is it the silver wound SUT cause I found Silver to be ultra detailed that could lead to sound being analytical. Some folks dig this, it’s certainly not my cup of tea. I once had all Silver wire loom in my system…while it was all very exciting and sparkly at the beginning; eventually I couldn’t listen to my system over couple of hours.

Now, you’re the 4th person mentioned Etsuro ‘Gold’. I may end up there but it’s not in the cards right now. I have already pushed my budget to Bordeaux from Cobalt Blue thinking Bordeaux as sweet spot in Etsuro lineup and a cart I could live with for a while before moving to something else. I could be wrong in thinking that Etsuro Gold may be an overkill in my current system 🤷‍♂️

I look forward to hearing your impressions with Bordeaux + EMIA. 

My current system renders a romantic, slightly warm with a touch of mystique soundstage. The mid-range is simply magical. Lot of this I attribute to careful tweaking over the years, dealer support and my choice of gear plus the cables.

This is going to be a fun ride as I tread deep into analog world, hopefully without going bankrupt…lol! Thank you all for your feedback so far…keep it coming.

@mdalton 

That’s an impressive list of SUT’s (thank you). I will be taking a hard look at some of them. 

@theflattire

I will check out the Modwright phono. The only phono on hand is my AD-50, which is a input board in my Accuphase Integrated, This phono board mated beautifully with Hana Umami Red cart on SME V arm and surprisingly bettered the EAT E-Glo S tube phono with external power supply at $5K retail.

https://www.accuphase.com/cat/ad-50_e.pdf

@theflattire

Thank you so much for your recommendation. Ned Clayton SUT’s looks very appealing and gives lot of flexibility.

@boomerbillone 

Agreed, I think that’s where I am headed. Buy a good MM phono and experiment with bunch of SUT’s. 

@pindac 

Thank you for your recommendation.Sculpture A is already on my short list. Unfortunately, their products are not easily available in the US. I wanted to try the Le Phono MKII, so far no luck in securing a deal. 

@atmasphere 

Good point, I am focusing on ‘custom’ SUT’s that are designed specifically to mate my choice of the cart’s. 
 

@atmasphere

Thank again for your insight on SUT’s. I am aware of limitations with SUT’s as far as compatibility with another cartridge. I am willing to put up with extra cost of securing another SUT’s once I change my cart. I am approaching my re-entry into analog with a singular purpose, the very best sound out of my investment.

Let’s see how far and deep I land within my means :-)

@atmasphere 

Would you please care to elaborate on ‘phono sections’ options / brands. If this would entail switching out to a new preamp with stellar phono section then I am not ready to do that just yet. I made a mistake of selling my Shindo Monbrison preamp from Ken Shindo era that had a stellar MC phono section. I may get back to all Shindo system but that means changing out speakers…may be down the road.

I have an amazing synergy between Accuphase Integrated and Tannoy Canterbury’s, so the idea is to built upon what’s in place. 

“I thought the Monbrisson phono stage did not have sufficient gain for a LOMC cartridge”
@lewm 

I didn’t perceive anything lacking with the soundstage when I played Hana Umami Red through Monbrison onboard phono. Others may have used a SUT as personal preference. I believe the latest revision of Monbrison don’t have MC phono option. 

In any case, I am very close to finalizing a tube MM phono. The plinth is finally here (phew). 

@cey 

Appreciate your advise. I keeping an open mind about this and will continue to explore my options in upcoming months. For starters, I am leaning towards a custom SUT’s plus MM tube phono setup. 

@rauliruegas

I appreciate the recommendation for Integrated but I am not looking to upgrade my Integrated. Accuphase Integrated is not going anywhere! On my last shootout with T+A and Dartzeel, I preferred the synergy between the Accuphase and Tannoy’s.

@sns Good to hear from you and thank you for your feedback. Like I said, I am digging the features and it’s been compared favorably with big dogs. One of my favorites is Air Tight ATE-3011…wish I can afford it. Let’s see where I land…it’s all very exciting, the process and the pursuit.

Does anyone have a direct experience with Thöress ‘Phono Enhancer’. I was reading late last night about it and kinda digging its design and features. A purely active phono circuit – no step-up transformers – that uses three NOS (new-old-stock) tubes – one PCC88 and two 6J5GT.

"MUSIC is not magic"

@rauliruegas

I did not say Music is Magic. My exact words, "Mid-range is simply magical" which IMHO translates to, something beautiful or delightful in such a way that it draws or transports you into state of bliss.

Enjoy the Music and IGNORE the adjectives :-)

@mdalton 

Congratulations!  I am looking forward to hearing your impressions on Swissoner SUT.  And appreciate you for sharing the insight on noise from one of the brilliant minds in the industry. 

@rauliruegas 

The phono board option in Accuphase Integrated is pretty decent. But given my investment in Carts (north of $10K), I thought it would be worth exploring improvements over the phono board. I will be comparing the external phono’s with AD50 before committing to a purchase. 

@mulveling

Appreciate your feedback based on your extensive experience. I am also leaning towards Tube MM phono + SUT. With a SS system, if one place I can possibly insert a tube component; this would be IT. I am trying to line up few auditions and let’s see which pairing of phono + SUT I end up preferring.

@herman ..EMIA is on my list :-)

Those advocating simplicity or short signal path, I have already experienced that in my previous analog setup. I may end up adopting a phono that does it all in a single chassis but not until I tryout a MM phono + SUT pairing in my system.

+1, @lewm @dogberry

Keeping an open mind and experimenting is the key to ‘sound’ you prefer. There isn’t anything more gratifying than that!

You know what they say…All roads lead to Rome!

@moonwatcher

Thanks for the link to Steve’s video. Zesto Audio is another brand that intrigues me..lots of praise. I am surprised no one had mentioned Zesto Audio until now. While not cheap, they offer good quality and versatility in their product line up. 

Does anyone have a direct experience with Allnic H-6500 Phono-stage? How would you characterize Allnic sound. Thank you! 

@wrm57 

Thank you for taking the time to provide your invaluable feedback. I found your personal experience with Allnic very helpful and encouraging to try the H-6500 in my system. I know from past experiences that power supply plays is pivotal in any given component so I will make sure to experiment with rectifier in PS. 

@wrm57 

Appreciate the invite! 

@herman

No apology needed. I always enjoyed reading your posts and appreciate you for taking the high road. Unlike our friend @rauliruegas, who has shown us repeatedly that he is incapable of respecting views of other participants. I honestly don’t get why some folks get so worked up. It’s okay to disagree but disrespecting others that don’t share your views is so unnecessary. The best course of action in my book is to ignore such poster’s.

Back to my journey, I just finalized a tube phono with good MM and MC capabilities. We plan to compare the tube phono in following configurations,

1) Fuuga ➡️ Allnic H-6500 MC ➡️ Accuphase E-650

2) Fuuga ➡️ Konus Phono (transimpedance) ➡️ E-650

3) Fuuga ➡️ EMIA SUT (copper) ➡️ H-6500 MM ➡️ E-650

I am hoping to establish a good baseline from above, should be a fun day.

PS: Thank you all for your feedback and a special shoutout to @wrm57.

@mulveling 

LOL! I’ve come to admire and respect members like you and many others over the years. The combined wealth of knowledge and experience between some of you is simply off the charts. This is my second attempt at analog, so I am hoping to sustain my interest until I no longer able get off my chair to change out a record every 20 minutes…lol!  

“what is the step up ratio on the EMIA SUT ? ”
@herman 

The EMIA SUT has a step up ratio of 1:20 and designed specifically to mate with Fuuga. No additional loading plugs needed as per Dave. One other setup I forgot to mention in my last post, 

4) Fuuga ➡️ EMIA SUT (copper) ➡️ E-650 MM Phono board. 

I was told that if I chose to pursue EMIA, pure silver winding version would be the way to go. The copper version is A-Ok. 

@herman 

I did opt for 1st stage Transformer Upgrade to Pure Silver Winding. So I will get a taste of Silver characteristics with H-6500 phono. 

“I do know the enjoyment to be had entertaining oneself trying out the extent of Permutations that can be created for the Vinyl Signal Path. ”
@pindac 

That’s been my goal all along! Thanks again for your input :-)

@mdalton

That’s a great! It does look substantial in stock pics. I think, I’ve read somewhere 50 hours break-in time for HM7. Fun times ahead :-)

“With out those first hand experiences we can't grow up along each one of us objectivity trying to keep a rational equilibrium in between.”

@rauliruegas 

So after dozen posts, you’re basically agreeing upon on, 

“The importance of firsthand experiences that help us develop objectivity and maintain a balanced, rational perspective. It is only after our own trial and tribulations, we gain a better understanding on evaluating situations thus leading to more informed and fair judgments.”

@mdalton 

All the pieces in place except the cart. Still contemplating my options on carts. Here is my Analog chain looking at this point, 

Garrard 301 ➡️ Reed 3P ➡️ Fuuga (loaner) ➡️ Allnic H-6500 / Konus Audio / AD-50 phono board ➡️ Accuphase E-650 ➡️ Tannoy Canterbury’s 

There is a EMIA SUT (copper) version in the mix as well. 

There are just too many great carts out there to choose from…lol! 

@mdalton 

Atleast 2 if not 3…next few months is going to be about experimenting with carts and phono’s. The only constants would be Garrard / Tonearm and Accuphase. I will likely invest in a SUT once I know my everyday cart. 

Did you receive the Swissoner SUT yet? 

@mdalton

I hear you on spreading out the spending. That is exactly what I am dealing with…bite the bullet and get my dream cart or buy an interim cart. 

@mdalton

I just looked up Swissoner’s HM-7s retail, wondering what’s sort of wizardry commanding such a steep price? I remember seeing an outlet in US with similar Hashimoto tranny’s for lot less.

@mdalton

I wasn’t trying to knock down the HM-7.. just curious about your rationale to choose HM-7 over the other SUT’s in your elite list. There is very little info available about HM-7 online so I am certain you have done your research before pulling a trigger. 

@mdalton

I agree with your assessment and looking forward to your feedback on HM-7. My Allnic phono just showed up. Unboxing tomorrow and some fresh pics. And to hell with Equilibrium and Objectivity 🤣

@mdalton 

I’m in Texas but I did visit Gestalt couple of years ago. Had a great time with Colin. I was fortunate to listen to Cessaro - Opus 1 paired with New Audio Frontier amp and preamp, WVL - SON & Berlin paired with Tron 300B Integrated and Horning - Aristotle paired with Tron and NAF electronics. All great sounding speakers, match made in heaven for flea watts amplifiers. My personal taste, Opus 1 was bit ‘bright’ or ultra detailed. If I ever walked away from Canterbury’s, Berlin or Aristotle big brother Eufrodite Ellipse PM65 would be my preference. 

Allnic H-6500 now unboxed, it’s a beautiful piece of hardware. Pics uploaded here, 

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11092

@mdalton 

I never heard Wagner II but Jeff’s system at shows are among the best. That system you’re referencing is well north of $200K. 

https://youtube.com/shorts/ERj4mZBScaw?si=NdsVJbXcXS9nu4lV

IMO, Horns speakers needs way more diligence when it comes upstream electronics. You get that synergy ‘right’ and you”re in for a royal treat. Another brand that always impresses me is Avantgarde’s. I once heard their pairing with Phasemation’s MA-1500 (300B mono’s) and Control Meister Pre…sublime!  

I have yet to hear another 300B amp that can rival MA-1500’s. And I have heard lot of 300B’s. Went all out and got one custom made with Hashimoto’s but did not get there, turned out to be a disaster :-) 

“He was running a Fuuga”
@mdalton 

Several of their demo’s featured Fuuga and Aventurin 6 carts. 

@mdalton 

Any early impressions on HM-7 vs Rothwell? 

@mdalton 

I appreciate the quick update. As you already know, any new additions may take few fine adjustments to get it right. So tweak away my friend! 

@mulveling 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on gain settings. They will serve as quick reference when I am ready to further tweak my system with an SUT.  BTW, have you heard of FonoLab. I am conversing with their senior chief engineer/owner on SUT options. Great exchange so far and I am intrigued by Tamura transformers :-) 

“They have phase shifts.”

@dover

You can buy SUT with a phase equalizer option.

@dover 

Here you go! 
https://www.fonolab.com/veliferi

Update: After few sleepless nights, I ordered the Etsuro Urushi Bordeaux cart. I will be comparing Bordeaux with Fuuga. Thanks to @jazdoc for getting me more the hump. 

@lewm 

I hear you :-)

@pindac Stay Healthy and enjoy Life! 

“the EQVES line has become a successful example of devices with which you can color your analog system. "

If that " color " is what you want, that’s it

Btw, do you know why Excel did not choosed ruby material in the cantilevers in its own cartridges been the manufacturer of Etsuro and instead used BORON material?. Very simple ruby has not the superlative characteristic as boron or diamond in catilevers and Etsuro choosed ruby, ??? ? ! ! I mentioned these twice in other threads. Good luck with.”

@rauliruegas

I must say, your posts here and elsewhere adds nothing but mass confusion. As evident from many of your posts, you’re quick to criticize other posters choices and manufacturer design philosophy. This kind of behavior is a classic example of a narcissistic personality.

This is a shared learning environment, we should always respect the views of other participants even if you don’t agree with them. Moving forward, If you cannot respect others opinion and choices, all I can ask and hope for some civility in your posts.

As far as your negative comments about Etsuro,

Cartridges manufacturer uses different materials for cantilevers depending on the specific design and intended performance characteristics of the cartridge. The choice between ruby, boron, or diamond as cantilever materials is not solely based on the “superlative” qualities of one material over another but rather on how each material’s properties align with the design goals for the cartridge.

The choice of cantilever material is a balancing act between performance, cost, and the desired sound signature. While boron may offer technical superiority in some aspects, ruby provides a unique character that appeals to certain listeners and aligns with the luxury branding of products like those from Etsuro.

“You guys with MC carts, have fun.”

@moonwatcher

That’s the idea and partly the reason for this amazing hobby!

@mijostyn

I prefer not to expend my energy or time on Raul posts. I already said my peace!

Back to matter on hand, I wholeheartedly agree with your point and preference for accuracy and neutrality in audio equipments. And cartridges and phono stages are not any different, ideally your entire signal chain should be as neutral as possible.

My rule of thumb, if a specific audio component cannot convey music with its natural emotions, then it failed in its purpose and gotta go.

Your list of recommended brands—Sutherland, Channel D, CH Precision, and Pass Labs—reflects your fine taste and commitment to high-quality, precise audio reproduction. I am not averse to trying a SS phono and I may eventually end up there. A tube phono been on my mind so this exercise will put rest my curiosity and give me a better understanding on what I liked or didn’t like vs a SS phono.

For me, next few months is going to be all about finding that perfect balanced sound with least bit of coloration. Musicality is a constant in my choice of audio gear and so far I have been very pleased with the results.