@lalitk
If it hasn't already been pointed out: the fact that you enjoy Tannoy Canterbury as your main speakers, and have stuck with them for years (like me) - I think makes it more likely you'll prefer the SUT + MM approach.
The cartridges you cite (Umami, Etsuro, Fuuga) are electrically a good match for SUT. There are so many nice premium SUT options and new contenders today, many of which I haven't tried, e.g. Consolidated Audio, EMIA, Sculpture A. Over time I've settled on using my EAR MC-3 and MC-4 the most. If the newer options go beyond that, it's quite a bonus.
Used a SUT with tube MM stages for years because it felt like the "natural fit", and indeed it's hard to even find a bad match there. VAC, Herron, Audio Research, Hagerman - all wonderful results with the EAR SUT's, which I generally preferred to the built-in MC options, sometimes by a lot. Of them all, the Hagerman Trumpet Reference actually made it a close call in some scenarios - and even won out in cases where I needed a little more air & zip on top to balance things out (depends on the system). And the VAC itself uses Lundahl LL1931 SUT for its built-in MC stage - but Lundahls are my least favorite SUT!
Now that I've also got a Meridian 502 w/ MM stage I'm playing with in a 2nd system, I can confirm solid state MM's work great with SUT too! In fact that's a quirky little "sounds better than it should" MM stage. Its balanced line-stage is reasonably transparent, but I prefer a tube line stage over it for many of the same reasons I prefer a SUT.
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@lalitk
Sadly, these audiogon threads often become a demonstration of how NOT to effectively communicate. I can find myself being too wordy, repetitive, or combative at times - but then I read a thread like this, and feel like I've not been that bad lol.
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“I do know the enjoyment to be had entertaining oneself trying out the extent of Permutations that can be created for the Vinyl Signal Path. ”
@pindac
That’s been my goal all along! Thanks again for your input :-)
Agreed - same here, and well said on that point @pindac .
@rauliruegas I respect your bilingual skills, especially as I have none to speak of. I certainly wasn't knocking that, nor singling you out - it was meant as a general comment as to how these threads always go in this analog forum:
- Op has a specific inquiry or technical question.
- The usual crew trots out briefcases full of their own specific, narrow perspectives, retrofits them onto the op's inquiry (often very poorly) and dumps them on op's thread.
- There is the usual bickering between participants, as the thread descends into a wall after wall of text largely incomprehensible to anyone but those participants.
So to admit my own guilt in this game, my schtick is that subjective listening experience and perception is key. I realize that some find this perspective worthless.
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@mdalton IIRC Sugano Sr. also used a Fidelity Research arm on his Garrard. Even "just" my FR64fx and 64S are stunning with Koetsu (I have 6 lol) - and I ended up liking them better with all my other brand cartridges, too (ideal mass compliance matching be damned). Modern arms end up sounding a bit "dead" to me.
Your Reed should be awesome anyways (have a friend who recently got one), just saying :)
Your room and system are absolutely stunning btw - and that blue Garrard is almost beyond this plane of existence 
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With all else being equal (which it almost never is), core size can definitely have an impact on performance. Good luck getting an actual core weight sans all the casing, potting, etc.
EAR MC-3 and MC-4 add weighting to the box so stiff audiophile cables don’t wrestle it around - which is really nice. Almost all the CineMag MC variants use the same size can - but interestingly Quadratic (MC-1) has their CineMags custom made with at least double the usual height (presumably with a proportionally larger core). It featured stronger than usual bass response, along with a slightly relaxed treble (this behavior was consistent across MM stages and cartridges).
Lundahls (9206, 9226, 1931) use amorphous cobalt cores, rather than laminations, which must weigh differently - and I also wonder if this core material explains my aversion to them.
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@mdalton
Cool!! From my perspective, SUTs actually increase the Koetsu magic. But that hum is not "normal", even at the 30x / 29dB setting, and even with the volume turned up loud (my preferred setting lol). As least, it should not be invasive from your seating position. Anyways 30x SUT's like the Hashimoto will perform well with the 0.3mV Koetsu Platinums, though it's pretty "hot" at that setting. 15x - 20x is ideal. For your Urushi, 30x is way too hot. The 15x setting is ideal for you!
There will be ample opportunities to correct the hum - through various grounding schemes, IC swaps, and making sure all connectors & jacks are tight. Hopefully that can be resolved easily.
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Don't worry, we will be careful not to enjoy our inferior SUT's too much. I will keep in my place realizing I enjoy NOISE not MUSIC!
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Personally, I wouldn’t get hung up on Copper vs Silver windings
@lalitk @kennyc Totally agree - I became a SUT lover on "just" copper windings. In fact, tried the silver (Ag) version of Lundahl LL1931 (in a K&K box) versus the copper LL1931 in my VAC phono, and preferred copper (qualifying that a bit - the Lundahls aren’t my preference in general). Kevin Hayes of VAC has also told me he prefers the copper version, regardless of price. Not saying that can be extrapolated to other SUT makes - but copper ain’t bad! Sometimes I think that if copper cost over $1000 / oz, it would be the most desired audiophile wire metal BY FAR. We take for granted that it's so good, and affordable.
There is no substitute for trying things in your system and make an informed decision based on your own findings.
Also totally agree
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@mulveling : I certainly respect your knowledge and your ears, and those of Kevin Hayes, too, having been a VAC man myself for a long time. But I have to disagree about the LL1931Ag. I recently picked up a last-gen K&K Maxxed Out with the silver Lundahls. I love ’em, finding them deeper, more resolving, and more "lit from within," to use a hackneyed audiophile trope, than the copper version, which I’ve had for years in a K&K Premium SUT. Just goes to show, to each their ears!
@wrm57 that's fair! Agree the LL1931Ag does indeed dig deeper; just wasn't the right tonal balance in my system for my ears.
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VAC
It is much easier to make a transformer. I even made my own using top of the line Sowter cans. I could never make an active phono stage. I have placed Sowter cans inside preamps with MM phono stages with decent, but not spectacular results.
VAC has never made a head-amp, to my knowledge. Their phono stages have always used Lundahl SUT’s for MC gain. I think they recognize MC gain using tubes is a very bad idea, due to noise and the difficulty of tube selection. And SS isn’t their thing - closest they got was a tube DAC (the DAC chip being SS) which was discontinued long ago.
EAR made a head-amp unit "The Head" which is discontinued and hard to find used (and sought after by some) - supposedly very good.
Hagerman makes their head-amp "Piccolo", now in voltage and current mode flavors. VERY good sounding for the money (cheap), though the voltage mode units aren’t the lowest in noise floor (that’s their weakness). They made many prior iterations of their voltage mode Piccolo, going back many years now. I just recently learned Hagerman once made a short run of SUT boxes with the Stevens and Billington TX103. VERY nice transformers, hard to find / obtain now. The Bent Audio Mu used this same transformer.
It’s easy to stuff SUT cans in a box. It’s not easy to manufacture the transformers themselves - i.e. windings and (especially) core laminations for units with laminated cores (Lundahl's amorphous core models do not use laminations).
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You’re mistaken. There’s no SUT in my ARC Ref Phono 2SE. It uses an FET on the MC input. I’m pretty sure this is common on ARC phono preamps.
@cleeds Correct - at least modern (and relatively recent) ARC Reference phono stages use a JFET based MC gain stage (voltage mode). I had a Reference 3SE. Its MC mode (called High Gain) sounded very good, but I still preferred a SUT - the MC mode is simply "leaner" sounding. I like a slightly fat, lush sound - and I don’t need to hear for the 1,000th time how this is wrong. The SUT was *easily* quieter, too. Fremer mentioned some susceptibility to EMI / RFI noise in its MC mode. I heard this very easily with a plasma TV in the next room. Sounded like demonic garble noises with the TV on - and went away when off. Also found its inherent noise floor would start to make itself "known" with cartridges below 0.3mV. Again, SUT’s had a distinct advantage here. I do listen loud - audiophiles who keep their levels below 85dB may not notice these issues as readily. That said, once you add groove noise, it’s debatable how much this actually matters.
The Ref 3SE’s Low Gain mode is still probably the best MM stage I’ve heard. Really, really good with a SUT. I’ve always liked the 6N30 tube, in line stages too. It is very linear and clean; not as fat and lush as other tubes. That’s right! I’m allowed to like "fat" sound in some cases and "cleaner" sound in others. It’s all just preferences when we hear the end product anyways. 6N30 just strikes the right sonic balance between traditional tubes and SS for me.
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Based on your experience, I should rule out a transimpedance phono since both of my carts are spec’d over 2Ω. Right?
In my experience, no need to limit this way. What I found to be a reasonable determinant of matching was the ratio of output level divided by ohms. The transimpedance amp, in theory, should provide an amplification factor inversely proportional to the cartridge’s DC ohms rating. So higher ohms cartridges are OK so long as their "starting output" level is proportionally higher to compensate. Of course for simplicity, we’re ignoring losses and the stage’s (obviously) nonzero input impedance.
So from that perspective, 200 uV (micro volts) output at 2 ohms should be roughly equivalent to 500 uV at 5 ohms...etc. Koetsu with 300 uV at 5 ohms was an excellent match, by the way. In the end, I still preferred a good SUT.
Cartridges with non-magnetic armatures - like Benz’s Ruby / Gullwing / LPS, and maybe weird designs with with air coils - will (relatively) struggle to achieve the appropriate destination output (~ 5mV to MM level) with transimpedance amplification.
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@lalitk Glad you were able to resolve the feedback! Nothing else really matters until this is settled. Running subs with vinyl is definitely doing life in "hard" mode ;)
I’m guessing your feedback was well into audible spectrum. When I was fighting subsonic frequencies in the small room rig (thanks to Clearaudio’s CMB bearing being super-reactive in this range), all manner of footers (including ISOAcoustics) and constrained-layer damping shelves proved to be completely ineffective - quite obvious, in retrospect. By contrast, the VPI setup was particularly reactive ~ 100Hz, and footers helped. The SOTA just needs a very rigid stand so its suspension doesn't get excited by heavy footsteps, and then NOTHING gets through.
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@mijostyn Yep - I just picked up a refreshed older Cosmos IV that is now a hybrid of sorts (Condor motor & PSU), and it’s sublime. I’m truly impressed and in awe of it :) The only downside is it limits arm choices - I can get my FR64fx on there, but not 64S.
Back to the @lalitk ’s topic of SUTs - yes in theory a phono stage’s built-in SUT has an advantage with no extra cables / connections, but in practice I have yet to land on an internal SUT as my favorite choice versus one of my SUT boxes. Make sure you look inside the phono stage too - sometimes the internal SUT’s wiring isn’t as short as you think, especially if it’s trying to provide custom loading control (e.g. VAC Renaissance).
Even back when I had a Rogue Ares Magnum sporting internal CineMag 1254 - which should be VERY close to a Bob’s Devices CineMag Sky - the Sky and its external box still edged out the 1254. Thus, I rate the extra cable connection & box "not much to worry about". Just keep the cable run short and relatively low capacitance - you’ll be fine.
If you start rolling SUT boxes you’ll find these transformers affect the sound almost as much as cartridge itself (more if you choose a poor electrical match - don’t do that), and at least as much as MM stage.
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@vuch I owned the Herron VTPH-2A for a while. Regardless of having ample gain in its MC mode w/ tube swaps, it will sound different when paired with a SUT in MM mode. And that "difference" is quite likely to appeal to someone who likes VAC gear and/or Tannoy speakers (me).
That said, the Herron is decidedly not a traditional tubey sounding tube stage. Even comparing just MM modes, it sounds quite distinct to (say) the VAC and Hagerman tube stages, which are sweeter and warmer (Herron being almost a tad aggressive in upper mids by comparison). The MM / SUT combo with VTPH-2A gets you about halfway to that. And I’ve had system configurations where that particular combo was "just right", though typically I prefer a more "traditional" tube stage paired with SUT.
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