@atmasphere Very Touchy,
Thank You for the reminder and prompting myself to state as a Layman. Recorded Music Replay to become an Audio Experience, is dependent on Electric being generated at a source, which is to become a sent signal and managed through a selection of designs for Amplification that is dependent on Math. Where the Math is a fundamental requirement to Amplify a Electrical Signal with the sole intent to convert the Amplified Signal to become a conversion to a different energy type being Sound.
How silly of me to let it seem like I was overlooking this area of importance 
I have plenty of 'over the dam' experiences with Sales Persons. My assessment is that in their view, they are 'always right' in their own opinions and those shared are some sought of Gospel. Lucky for them they are not written as these opinions are very short lived, or last as long as the next best of the best arrives on the shelves.
Sales Persons are able to make very interesting claims for Sale Items, at the time of seeking a Closed Won. This biased encounter is one I have been proactive in avoiding. I have removed encounters with at work Sales Persons from my Audio Experience for many many years passed.
I am quite willing to meet with Sales Persons who do/have made a living from Audio Equipment sales where a Social Activity is occurring in relation to Audio experiences. In general the individuals I meet frequently / infrequently are liked by myself and a pleasure to spend time with.
Where Sales Persons fall very short, is where they can't sell to everybody met. Even when professing their bias and declaring designs promoted as being the best of the best. Such declarations are not enough, end sound for a large group of individuals really does mean something to them, especially when narrowed down to where it becomes important to be entertained as result of experiencing sound resulting from recorded music being replayed.
Audio Devices no matter how well designed, how accurate the Math, when encountered and is perceived as producing an end sound that is very unattractive, for many the only want left for the experience, is to end the experience hastily.
Sales Persons do not have the monopoly on how one perceives sound produced from Audio Devices.
I have been in agreement with Sales Persons when met, either at a place of work or socially. Where I agreed the device selected for a Demo' looked very attractive as a design, and the Control Knobs were a Bespoke design not typically seen. I'm not sure how these attributes to the product, would entertain myself for a prolonged period where the Sound Produced is the entertainment being sought.
|
@lalitk The Plinth is an extreme sample of a High Quality Workmanship.
If a Bentley Continental Owner was Specifying a TT as an extra, this Plinth would be the Sales Person recommendation.
As for SUT's I have a broad experience and have even been Demo'd not too far in the past, the very elusive to be discovered 'The Head or Brick' SUT designed by TDP, prior to the EAR Company being Incorporated. This was presented as a Model at a Comparison using Step Up and Head Amp's.
Firstly, Is the Phon's on the Shortlist not capable of matching the Cart's shortlisted? I strongly recommend having the experience of the Phon's only, before looking at alternate MC Amplification options used in conjunction with owned Phon' / Phon's..
Secondly, and underpinned by the recently discovered SUT Model experienced in use as a Perfect Match for a Miyajima Cart' , where the SUT was supplied with a Copper Wound Tranx, which had a profound impact on myself.
On the same day another same Company Model with a Silver Wound Tranx was also used with the Miyajima Cart', the end result being that this Company has compelled me to place their Products experienced way up on my list of must experience a Home Trial.
I strongly recommend an investigation, even a dialogue with the Company Sculpture A about their options to be offered on SUT's.
Thirdly, I strongly recommend not to overlook Head Amp' Designs.
Note: My experiences of SUT's has brought to the fore, the notion that SUT's are injecting Various amounts of a discernible Richness of Tone. A choice to be considered is how much perception of Richness of Tone an individual is willing to live with. The perception of Tonal Presence can be from one type of Tranx (Cinemag 1254) perceived to the point of being towards lean, with a Tranx (Brand not recollected Models 800 or 1200) both of these are overbearingly Bass Weighted, being beyond what I would refer to as a injection of Richness of Tone.
Head Amp's are the opposite, certain models can present with a perception they are a close match in Tone to a SUT that has a Lean Tone (Hint of Richness). The Head Amp' is also capable of moving towards a Bright unbearable presentation.
It is the individuals choice where they 'get of the bus', on their journey to find the end sonic they are willing to live with. I don't know any who found the comfort zone on their first toe tip on to the Waters of MC Signal Amplification.
I have a few Phonostages, A few SUT's and a Loan Option on a selection of an individuals own design Head Amp's to satisfy my overall listening needs.
I do not regularly use one of the Phon's' in use Built In MC Stage. Even though good and very well reviewed by a Group who long term loaned the Phon. For myself, the Phon' does not present with the same attraction a SUT or Head Amp can create in use through the MM Input, hence I have added expense to the method for using this Phon'.
|
SUT Brand is now recollected ( Audio Innovations 1200 ) produced by a Company that has as part of its history, an individual that is now the Owner of AN UK.
A SUT with this type of influence on the end sound, will change the balance of Coherence across the frequencies, to the point the Mid's, Upper Mid's and Highs are all seemingly subdued and not able to project.
That said, the same SUT used with a Valve Input / Output Phon' at a Phon' Bake Off when a liberty was given to mix and match devices. Resulted in the pairing producing a Venue Filling Sound quite different to any other Phon' > SUT used in the venue on the day. The impact made was that it was applauded when playing John Lee Hooker - Boom Boom Boom.
|
|
The SUT's I own/use are bought as Tranx only from the Brands Hashimoto and Cinemag, which have been assembled into a Chassis using Solid Copper Chassis Mount RCA Connectors.
From recent experiences had, I feel compelled to strongly suggest the Chassis Mount RCA Connectors are a Low Eddy Design.
The Box/Chassis is down to the individual to design as a Bespoke fit for purpose or purchase a Model of the shelf. Leaving one with the Oldest of decisions to make, are the Tranx's to be seen Mounted on the Chassis or Out of Sight contained within the Chassis, these types of choices can be deal breakers  .
|
The point not to overlook is that a Phon' with a Built In MC / MM Channel can be a Phon' that has an MC Input that when experienced proves a real challenge for a MM Input being coupled to a SUT or Head Amp'.
I could easily live with my multi adjustable MC Input on a owned / used Phon'. The options available by having both MC / MM Inputs and the additional devices that cans be added, has enabled myself to discover a end sound that satisfies myself, but not at the expense of leaving the MC Input unwanted. I demonstrate the MC Input to others, to help with their own learning about end sounds that can be produced.
My preferred end sound is certainly not ubiquitous, and the MC Input has been very well liked by some of the individuals who have been introduced to it.
|
|
@lalitk has stated " Good point, I am focusing on ‘custom’ SUT’s that are designed specifically to mate my choice of the cart’s " .
For this reason I have suggested the contact with Sculpture A
@pindac has stated " the end result being that this Company has compelled me to place their Products experienced way up on my list of must experience a Home Trial ".
|
I agree that the investigation can be broad, others have shared in such a broad investigation.
I don't agree the Math only is the defining information that should create a shortlist of options to investigate. The end sound and how it impresses is the one element that really matters. To discover end sound, foot work and listening is what is required. A built in MC Stage is out there to be discovered that does sound very impressive, a SUT or Head Amp' used in conjunction on the same Phon' can create a end sound that has that extra level of appeal. The added devices in the Signal Path will need to audibly assessed for what is removed or added.
My selections have added to the end sound, to my liking preference. Nothing of attraction is perceived to be diminished to the point it is a detriment to the end sound, through adding the additional Selected Cables and Selected Device.
I have experiences where the above has not occurred and devices being investigated have been rejected for the impression had on the end sound.
The following Links will show another respected individuals experiences and assessments of their own SUT investigations. There will be more info to be assessed resulting from others who are contributing. An open mind and broad experience become a great aide on the SUT / Head Amp' subject.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-of-quadratic-mc-1-sut-with-comparisons-to-other-suts-2
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/hagerman-piccolo-zero-new-transimpedance-head-amp
|
I have a experience of experiencing quite a lot of equipment in use across quite a few different systems, but must admit today, commercial orientated systems where a system is built to create sales are not listened to much, very infrequently will be a fair explanation since Covid Times and infrequently will be a fair explanation for a good period of time prior to Covid.
I can't Speak for all, but have even received reports from individuals I trust in heavily in relation to Audio Equipment, who on return from Event such as the High End Munich, have felt the Demo's encountered overall were uninspiring.
There is not a generic formula for Math, that is able to be used that will win over all with the End Sound Produced. Is this not another fact worth pointing out.
Foot Work, Experiencing and assessing impression made of an End Sound Produced, is my methodology. It has served me very very well, not much that has been bought has been replaced or resold. Those who have tried to convince me of the Math, are usually informed to leave that for the Mathematicians or Wannabe Mathematicians. During my time and limited encounters, my real trust count in individuals with a Mathematical prowess, that has slowly developed into trust over many years of encounters, is limited to reliance on a number of trusted individuals that amounts to less than the digits on one hand.
|
If my posts at anytime are addressed @rsf507 it would not be any care of mine if it was read by yourself or any other. It is known within this forum, I add Posts for the ’looker in’ who does not post or posts very infrequently, as well as for a future visitors looking to see if a broad range of notions and proposals are able to be discovered.
I have made no secret in the past, I periodically receive PM’s from individuals who are not regular posters, or who are regular posters. Where inquiries are made wanting to receive further information about the content they have seen. This is an encouragement and one that keeps myself active.
Additionally, I also receive the occasional PM that thanks me for a content added to a Thread, another unexpected encouragement and one that keeps myself active in this forum.
What is contradictory is you state you don’t read my Posts, but do make the time for reading 2% ? Is it not better to just SKIP the Post ?
With 2% of content being meticulously studied, you are fluent and able to offer up a reasonable interpretation about the content. Is this 2% across all Subjects I offer a supporting commentary on, or limited to the Analogue Subject only ?
I am glad you are absorbing the supplied info, about what I class as the most valuable asset to my Audio Experience. Which is my making it known I do not shut myself away in a Room as a lone listener to recorded music with the sole audio experience being from using the homes dedicated audio system. With the end result being I am Kidding myself I have created a great playback system. That stupidity from being very Insular in relation to recorded music replays on audio equipment was ended a long long time in the past.
For many many years the Bulk of my experiences are from a approach where Social Activity is the fundamental. Where experiencing Audio Systems and different devices as demo’s in such systems are the basic theme to create a reason for a Meeting. The real value is friends getting together, sharing Banter, sharing Lunch and enjoying New Music Tracks and few Old Faithful Tracks to get an ear in to the end sound on offer.
I whole heartedly encourage others to see if they can find a way to have very similar experiences on a regular basis, there is potential to learn vast amounts, through the broad range of individuals who can start to show up.
I make no secret on this forum that the bulk of my main audio system is packed away for storage, as there is a Home Overhaul being planned to occur.
I make no secret on this forum, that much of my musical experiences had in my own home are with my Wife and supplied by using her Amazon Alexa, which in my own opinion are as enjoyable as a musical encounter as any had anywhere at any time, just not as refined as a dedicated audio system can create as a end sound. The Grandchildren totally enjoy the interaction as well, one song being danced to is Alice Cooper the next from Horrid Henry 
If an individual can’t accept another’s chosen methodology for sharing on audio related experiences, that is their beef not mine. Life is way way too short.
Over a decade, a growing number of Members of a Local Audio Club, have evolved to host events throughout a year, taking place in the homes of Members, or where Members have Pooled Equipment to be taken to and used at Public attended Audio Enthusiast Events. 12 Members > 12 Systems of which Three systems are the regularly used ones, but over 18 Months - 2 years all systems will have been used for a Meeting. I can usually attends 4-6 meetings a year.
What’s not to like, what is needed to be criticised ?
@lewm stated " Not all high end component designers are EEs, although ideally one would like to think so. Many/most are just intelligent guys with no degree related to EE who use math, and yes also their own personal biases, to design equipment. "
I am very very familiar with this outlook and have friendships with a Group of individuals from both categories of EE Skills, as well being very familiar with the need to have accuracy in mechanical designs for use in audio, where I also have friendships with very adept producers of audio related equipment who use Lathes for machining, even producing Micro Parts, as well as using CNC’s.
Hence my statement, "During my time and limited encounters, my real trust count in individuals with a Mathematical prowess, that has slowly developed into trust over many years of encounters, is limited to reliance on a number of trusted individuals that amounts to less than the digits on one hand ".
Do I have any regrets to date, more of a want I would say, I would have liked to have been able to have had the available time to attend more get togethers, and had been able to visit all who have been met, who have impressed me with their discussed Skill Sets. To experience their work applied to their systems, is usually a indelible experience and one that inspires way beyond that, which is on offer from a commonly used methods to experience audio related equipment.
A very adept EE put on a event recently that I attended where a 3 Watt output Amp’ Prototype was being Demo'd ( not carried out on my own system ). This experience of this Amp' has blown me completely of track and has myself rethinking a lot about an End Sound that is able to be produced. The expectation that a 300b follow Up Amp was going to show the shortcomings of a 3 Watt Amp did not become realised. There are many questions now needing to be asked and answered to get the full grip on what was experienced and the impression that was made.
Within this Thread I have only shared with the OP my experiences had, my assessments of those experiences had and in relation to being investigative. I have shared, it is of value to have a open mind, with an intent to create a list that contains a broad range of devices to be experienced. Which suggests the investigation may become one that is a long haul with a few devices Superseded as the collateral damages, as I have experienced, or a few devices discovered to be used in conjunction, as I have also experienced and maintain to this date.
|
To suggest the use of a Off Board SUT / Head Amp' is a detriment to a produced end sound, as a result of the usage extending the routing for a Signal Path, along with being dependent on adding other parts to enable the function, does require a little extra analysis to fully understand the full extent of where the real world concerns can be found.
In the case of a SUT, for the entirety of a design to be enabled to function, will incorporate a Transformer. The Transformer will introduce a increased Length of a Wire in the Signal Path, as well as the likelihood Different Wire Types are used in required Umbilical Cables and Different Metals for Connectors are being used on Cables and at the Input / Output on the device.
In the case of the Head Amp' for the entirety of a design to enable function, will incorporate an increased number of components in the Signal Path, as well as the likelihood Different Wires Types are used in required Umbilical Cables and Different Connectors metals for Connectors are being used on Cables and at the Input / Output on the device.
I propose one other consideration not too often seen being put on the table for discussion, is the end users unique choice for the Topology of the added devices, such as the Placement in relation to the Tonearm > Phon' and the Lengths of Umbilical Cables adopted ? Certainly worthwhile learning more and optimising.
Additionally there are other materials selected for use in the Signal Path, which are to be found used at critical interfaces along the Signal Path, i.e, Cart' Lead Out Pin's being Brass, Copper or another metal - Tag Wire Type? - Tag Wire Connectors being Brass, Copper or another metal - Connectors at the Tonearm Wire Interface being Brass, Copper or another metal - Tonearm Wire Type? - Connectors used within a Tonearm at another Interface being Brass, Copper or another metal - Connectors on Tonearm Phono Cable at either end being Brass, Copper or another metal.
Alternatively a selected Wire used as a continuous Wire, which is run from Cart' Lead Out Pins to Phono Connectors at the wires opposite end, which leaves the question about the Wire Connectors at either end being Brass, Copper or another metal.
Not creating a route for the Signal Path that is to its absolute benefit, is one that through experiences had and assessments made, one which is compromised and will diminish the end sound in achieving its full potential. Making changes to this Signal Path will create a perception that a less diminished end sound is being structured.
On certain Phons', mainly with a MC Input, a version of either of the above descriptions are most likely to be found incorporated within the Phon' as a design for the Phon's Circuit and will be given a specific Topology.
When using Outboard/Standalone Devices for the purpose of Amplifying a Signal, strongly suggests the fundamental affect on what can be classed as being able to diminish the end sound ,is the Input / Output Connectors and the Output Cable. y.
When considering what is very commonly encountered as the Signal Path between a Cart's produced electrical signal to the first stage of Signal Amplification.
The notion that a few additional connectors and a Cable Length used on an Off Board Amplification Device is a real cause for concern does seem to be a little OTT.
Removal of the Upstream Logs seems to be much better a place to focus on to improve the flow, rather than a few branches further down the stream.
It is each to their own, in relation to how they address the Signal Path.
As for myself, In relation to the Signal Path. I go to Pure Copper frequently, Pure Silver infrequently, avoid Brass unless no choice but to have it. Also reducing connections has been the choice in relation to Cart' > Phon' for quite few years.
In relation to the 333 Integrated, the design is seemingly showing the fundamental is to have a very short Signal Path, the design selected being the anti-thesis of a Separates System.
Is the introduction to this Amp' coming from the notion, all Systems made up from Separate Devices and connected with Umbilical Cables are no longer necessary ?
Or is the notion behind introducing the 333, that to use a SUT / Head Amp can be bettered by adopting this type of Amp' Design?
As for my interpretation of the 333 in relation to it being a concept with a Scandinavian Philosophy, as well as being a very new model. I have assessed how the design fits into a modern ethic about production and the environmental impact.
1, Does it as a design depend on less Electrical Power Consumption than a comparative Separates System ?
2, Does it require a lot less real estate ? i.e, Less than the usual Packaging for Shipping when considering alternatives ? Less Support/Rack Equipment is needed when considering alternatives ?
3, Does it as design fit in more comfortably with a modern ethic on reducing the impact on the environment resulting from methodologies typically used for commercial ventures production ?
With the design coming from Scandinavia and knowing the Countries ethics on Conservation / Preservation, 2, looks like a ticked box. 1 and 3 are by myself requiring further investigation to be proven.
4, Does it as a design produce a must have end sound ? There will be advocates who wear this products sonic attributes on their sleeves.
|
"Richness of Tone" is a term I use, that I have experienced being perceived, depending on device used, rhat has variance in how the presence is substantiated.
I like to detect a presence, but it will need to be subtle to get my vote.
Another may find that a much more weighty and what ai class as ovetbearing is to be detected to get their vote.
Another may class any detection of a Richness of Tone from a add on device, as being iadding a unnecessary noise. Where they.
would prefer to add a Richness of Tone through considering other options.
What really matters, where an End Sound is being sought by an individual, that is unique to the individuals preferences, is that the different perceptions that are able to be created, are experienced and that the individual makes their choice for what is most attractive and wanting to be maintained.
|
@psf4972 Your Statement " One example worked well in my set-up: wiring tonearm cable direct to valve phono board, bypassing RCA plug, socket, and wire, resulted in notably more dynamic sound"
is one I fully get the attraction to, it is a idea discussed with Tonearm Designer / Builder who are friends. Recent experiences had and the impression made strongly suggested this type of Signal Path Interface was worthy of consideration.
I have also been following Covid successful in encouraging a Catt' Technician to bypass the Cart's Lead Out Pins and offer a Continuous Wand Wire from the Cart's Coils or a alternate interface for the Wand Wire Cart' Coils, if convenience of use wins over.
Is it excessive as a method, this depends if one wants Gold Plated Brass Pins as the Signal Path Interface from Cart' Coils / Wand Wire.
Due to War Zones and Sanctions this design is on hold until the World shows more kindness towards each other.
In relation to AVC or TVC, the ones I have experienced have added a Richness of Tone, but no where near as a impression certain experienced Valve Pre's have been able to present.
My AVC is out on loan with other owned VC's to a EE producing a 3 Watt Output Amp', there use of the AVC has been able to substantially alter my assessments made in the past. The 3 Watt Amp' has created a Head Scratching / Chin Rubbing response, I am rethinking everything I have learnt about an Amp's influence on an End Sound.
@lalitk if the Valve Phonostage is selected, with a Valve Input / Output - MM only Design, you will be adopting Phon' Type that I use, which has been a Bespoke Build and in the end Voiced to my own preference for the End Sound.
Note: With such a design there is so much more available through Tube Rolling, this simplistic method to create option for the Circuit and Signal Path is for myself extremely attractive.
Fortunately, it took a lot less exposure to Valves as it did SUT's to find my keeper Valves.
Note: Such a suggestion to go Valve > SUT in the assessment of some, will no longer suggest your plan is a Step Backwards, more likely be a suggestion that you are not an Audiophile but just another Stupid OP based on voiced choices being considered/made.
|
I watched the bulk of the Video, a rare thing for myself to do.
I have been sharing the experience this man is having since approx' 2010, I do believe there is a fire put into some individuals bellies when such a discovery of what can be encountered is discovered.
Variety is a Wonderful Option, especially when achievable with minimum effort, even better if minimum outlay is the cost as well.
I have a selection of Cart's able to be used in LOMC - HOMC - MM and Ceramic. All have their own Identical Magnesium Headshells
I run 2 Phon's MM Inputs > 2 SUT's Types + Occasional used Head Amp. I run one of the Phon's MC Input as well.
I have experienced in my system on Phon's designed as a Valve Input / Output, Valve Hybrid and SS the LOMC Cart' used as a MC Input and a MM Input > SUT or Head Amp.
Additionally to this I also have options for Valves and fully understand how a few selected Valves can influence the end sound.
All SUT;s experienced have not been experienced through the same Phon's on the home system, the time line for experiencing SUT's has be quite long and fair number have been demo'd.
In relation to the Video, at times between 3.28 - 3.55 -- 4.25-4.50 -- 8.20 - 8.45 I see no reason to question the discoveries being shared or the thoughts about the discoveries. I know the bite that takes hold to have a insatiable appetite for new experiences. I also totally agree with experiencing the Phon's Built In MC Input regularly when trying the Phon's MM Input with a alternate amplification method, the Built In MC Input is quite capable on a large range of Phon's and really does prove to be more than enough for certain types of sensitivities to a produced sound.
I do question the comments made at 11.30 - 11.47, in the Video. It does seem there is a need to explain something but this might not necessarily be what has been experienced ?
In my trials of Phon;s > SUT or Head Amp'. My whole fundamental is to discover if the most attractive areas of the replay from hearing the End Sound minus additional amplification are preserved when the additional amplification method is added.
My experiences had, have led me to making choices that has the attraction to keep the additional amplification device maintained in use, as the added amplification device provides more to the End Sound, that has an added attraction, with no loss to other attractive traits already discovered.
Note: There has been quite a number of SUT's not given much attention by myself, as they have produced an End Sound that is quite a way of from my objectives for what an End Sound can be. This is no Different to my changing direction for Cart's, Valve or SS, Valve Types, Signal Cable Type, Cable Connections and Speakers, each of these can change my perception of how my objective for an End Sound is being steered toward or away from.
The Subject remaining so tightly focused on an area of a method used for entertaining oneself, where an individuals choice is made to add amplification, as a built in design or off board design seems a futile exercise, especially when each method produces the Goal very very successfully, to be entertained by listening to recorded music from a Vinyl Album Hard Medium.
Each to there own, Life is way way too short .
|
My system is set, there is little to be done, and yes the process has been but not absolutely intentional to fall into a description where Elaborate is a reasonable word to use.
My choices are made and are concrete. I have little intention to bring in New, I have been very carefully guided in my making some of the final introductions to the system.
Much of the time for making choices that are for myself at this present time deemed as final, has been resulting from designs of interest have been evaluated, where my time is Spent in the Company of others, where assessments of the Ultimate selections made, are very clearly discussed and reasons for the choice made is very well understood by myself for the impression that has been able to be made in my own system and systems belonging to others.
By introducing others to some of these choices made, some have almost immediately converted to the idea, and later realized the idea into their own systems. The result being I get opportunities to be demo'd close matching Sources, using devices I use myself.
I don't need my full home system assembled to remind myself of how Sources I use can impress. I have given reasonable accurate descriptions of assessments made about such devices, resulting from experiencing them over a broad range of interfaces into systems.
Additionally, items under discussion are quite portable and are regular offered up as a loaned item, sometimes for a demo' purpose and others as a demo' and increased loan time. The end result being, I have plenty of opportunities to refamiliarize with the End Sound that owned Cart's, Phon's, SUT's, Cables, CDT, DAC are able to deliver, as well as measure their capabilities when used in other systems or measure their Capabilities against other comparative devices brought along to be used in a similar way my own ones are to be used on systems visited.
In most systems listened to regularly, Valve Amplification and ESL's are the Speakers the downstream support and those less regularly listened to, will bring SS Amplification and Cabinet Speakers into the downstream supporting Audio Equipment.
As stated by myself in this Thread previously:
For many many years the Bulk of my experiences are from a approach where Social Activity is the fundamental. Where experiencing Audio Systems and different devices as demo’s in such systems are the basic theme to create a reason for a Meeting. The real value is friends getting together, sharing Banter, sharing Lunch and enjoying New Music Tracks and few Old Faithful Tracks to get an ear in to the end sound on offer.
I whole heartedly encourage others to see if they can find a way to have very similar experiences on a regular basis, there is potential to learn vast amounts, through the broad range of individuals who can start to show up.
I make no secret on this forum that the bulk of my main audio system is packed away for storage, as there is a Home Overhaul being planned to occur.
I make no secret on this forum, that much of my musical experiences had in my own home are with my Wife and supplied by using her Amazon Alexa, which in my own opinion are as enjoyable as a musical encounter as any had anywhere at any time, just not as refined as a dedicated audio system can create as a end sound. The Grandchildren totally enjoy the interaction as well, one song being danced to is Alice Cooper the next from Horrid Henry
For the record, I can use the CDT> Valve DAC with the Valve Power Amp's > Cabinet Speakers within a few minutes of wanting to listen to a CD source, with the only obstacle being a not so pretty dedicated audio room as it is with Storage Crates in the space.
If anybody thinks such a circumstance discredits me as a contributor on this forum let me know, if it is offensive to a group, I will happily take a full Hiatus from Forum Activity.
At the same time anybody who shares on experiences, where other very familiar systems are used for an assessment or other assessments are offered resulting from attendances at Forum Events or Commercial Events, should be very clear about making this known, if there is a suggestion that is seemingly aimed at asking how does one qualify themselves to comment, if the experience had is not in ones own system.
Surely if one is experienced and has experiences, their assessments of such experiences had, are much much better aired than kept quiet.
Alternatively, there is the claiming I don't like the Math or the Methodology, so I don't like the experience that can be had. Hence I will knock the whole idea of encouraging the seeking of a experience of the Methodology to occur.
The latter is a commonly seen weave produced in the fabric pattern of many Gon - Analog Threads.
|
The Link is to a Thread produced by a Forum Member on another for and one who I have a lot of trust in what they report.
In this case they are making known a experience had using different Phonostages in comparison, as well as using SUT's on a Phonostage Model that have been referenced on this forum recently as being a state of the art design costing $30K.
A extended read is the least the link is able to offer.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/my-next-phonostage-boulder-2008-or-ch-precision-p1-or.26346/
|
It is very fortunate for retailers of Audio Equipment many of the potential customer base are seeking a Buzz more than a Doctoral level of Education.
When I watch recorded TV programmes / films as a form Audio Visual form of entertainment what is expected of my education in TV Technology, at best how to Navigate the TV's Settings Menu, maybe even extend to being able to change the remote batteries, these two capabilities are usually more than enough to substantiate myself as acceptable type of viewer.
When I choose to use a Audio System as a means to listen to recorded music to be a form of entertainment, a different criteria prevails to substantiate my acceptability for being a listener. I am expected to have some acquired superior understanding or it is suggested that I lack in substantiation as a listener.
How Very Strange, or is just how the Very Clever Marketing continuously presented over many many years has engineered a mindset, that has successfully created a false belief, that there is something quite superior over Recorded Audible Entertainment vs Recorded Audio Visual Entertainment?
|
@lalitk I am not familiar with the Phon' or SUT in use, but I do know the enjoyment to be had entertaining oneself trying out the extent of Permutations that can be created for the Vinyl Signal Path.
I wish you the best for the next period of your Vinyl Endeavours.
@lewm Not too long ago, I made known I have been very impressed with the experience had from being demo'd the Paradise Phonostage.
For my bringing the Paradise into the arena of discussion and for referencing the the Builder of 40+ Models choosing a particular RIAA (0.3dB) if remembered correctly. I was subjected to the usual ugliness of written stuff by one forum member at the least. When the Builder referenced the dB i reported on they did claim "this is the value the end user is selecting" ??, food for thought, or all owner / users are no better than Stupid DJ's - not my words ??
As a show of my not caring about these types of individuals who spiel their ills onto the niceness of a friendly forum, ( I was always advised to Punch the Bully on the nose, rightly or wrongly). I am to continue making a reference to the Paradise, as it is extremely good VFM and will impress many many who encounter it. My own experiences of it in use strongly suggests, especially if individuals are expressing an interest in Branded Phon's up to £10Kish in Value.
The following info, which is extracted from another forum where the Paradise is under discussion by a few Builders.
Two UK Based Paradise Builders are discussing their builds, One Builder is the above referred to and the other is the producer of a Two Box Model I have also been able to be demo'd and impressed by on the £200K System, where Bake Off's has occurred. These Two Phon's got into the End of Day Line Up to be compared to the Premises Resident Phon' all comers if proven by selection are compared to.
As your earlier inquiry remains unanswered, this following info might help with some of the info that has been of interest to you.
__________________________________________________________________
Both SPICE simulation and I have reverse RIAA generator and Bruel & Kjaer signal generator plus widerange AC millivoltmeter.
I only simulated it for the Paradise but it can be done more accurately in simulation than in real life as a perfect reverse RIAA generator can be used virtually which is built with +/- 0.00000% accurate parts. This can then allow you to design RIAA networks of extreme accuracy which will be limited only by the tolerance of the real components.
When I design and build phono stages I use the reverse RIAA generator to check the actual response as a "reality check". With many designs the topology is such that if the simulation says the RIAA is spot on then it will be in reality but it can be useful to check that eg the 1% parts used really live up to that spec and that nothing has drifted.
In some designs the accuracy of the RIAA can be affected by the topology and the parts used, I'm mainly thinking of various simple valve phono stages here in which the sample of a particular valve used and how worn it is can all effect the RIAA accuracy.... Not all valve phono stages are affected by this but many of the simpler and more popular ones are.
I've found values to get it within 0.02dB if anyone wants to try it.
Change: 73.5K to 72K, 9K1 to 9K8, 33.3nF to 32.7nF and 11nF to 11.1nF. Leave the 220R shorted or remove and place wire link in. I believe it's generally shorted by most users and if not then it causes a further kick up in HF above about 18KHz....
_________________________________________________________________
|
@lewm I know all about discards due to testing matching, I supplied a substantial amount of monies for the Parts used on the Two Valve Phon's Prototypes of which I have one which incurred further costs by having the End Design voiced to my own preference.
I do believe the individual you have quoted does produce a RIAA that falls into the tight tolerances quoted, by being in a room with the builder, I vaguely remember their description making a reference to the RIAA and on other posts on forums they certainly make reference to it.
On the day a Two Box Paradise 0.02 dB RIAA? and a Four Box 0.3 dB RIAA?
The RIAA dB's quoted are very likely to have been these, unless the Four Box Builder selects a tighter tolerance for their own Phon's RIAA, than the one they reference as being the purchasers selection,
On the day, as made known in earlier Posts about the Paradise, the Four Box Model in my view, was the Phon' worthy to be Standalone A/B Compared to the resident £10K Phon' and separating them for which was the better was no easy task.
As said, this in my view, places the Paradise in a position where for the monies to be laid out to achieve one, gets an individual a Phon' will comfortably hold its own with Phon's from the Branded World that retail at £10K and upwards.
What's not too like if one is a Vendor, Probably a Fly in the Ointment if one is a Retailer.
|
@lalitk I am a Curioso in character, but do need to have a Tangible Experience when attempting to attain a knowledge.
I see your activities to be undertaken as a very similar trait and I feel very confident in my saying much of what has been thrown at you to steer you away from your intention is a waste to you, not worthwhile to you.
As for Shortest / Purest Signal Path.
Take electronics produced at a time say around 2010, say a Phonostage produced from that era. Has it got Pure Copper or Coated Brass for the Chassis Cable Connections? How much lead is in the Solder? How much Silver is in the Solder? Which metal is the lead out wire on a component.
The list is just a few considerations, a well thought out Signal Path being very careful with math and metal types selected to be used at a interface will offer something quite special as an end sound.
My own investigations have left me to feel very confident, when a careful metal material selection is made for interfaces. This is capable of outshining another Phon' that only has a Math as its selling point, and is creating a inferior Signal Path resulting from inferior Interface Metals selected.
Inferior metals are commonly selected when a design is to offer the most attractive margins as a return remuneration.
I have been privy to work carried out on a Tonearm Signal Path and Bespoke Design SS State Phon' and my own Bespoke Built Valve Phon'. My fundamental influences proposed was when the Amp's were near Voiced and presenting with attraction, was to work on the Signal Path focusing on materials used for Interfaces. Great indelible memories are made, and the approach taken has become the method I thoroughly recommend to be experienced.
I have referenced some of the methods used within the forum.
As to SUT's referred to in the Link I supplied.
Two Individuals who have seemingly owned over time approx' $180Kish Phon's of which certain models approach $30K+ Retail are both dedicated to using SUT's of various Types married up to these Phon' Models.
I have no reason not to believe both of these individuals know a thing or two about how to have a high quality end sound produced when using a Vinyl Source.
|
If the individual stays the journey and has many musical encounters whilst on route. There is inevitably going to be a point where a discovery is made that they have worked out how to produce a end sound that is totally satisfying and unique to their preferences.
When the individual discovers the end sound that is the one that they want to be entertained by forever, or at least until the next hone is added.
I am certainly not going to be the one to suggest their discoveries and choices made are only showing how stupid they are.
I am certainly going to wish them all the very best with the method they have discovered and adopted, that is proving to be a great form of entertainment for them when listening to music, or any other form of healthy entertainment on such a matter.
|
There does seem to be plenty of opportunities being taken in the past year by an individual, to enter into a Thread a reference to a particular Phonostage that has been a Commercial Sale Item in the past and is once more being made known it is a available as a Commercial Sale Item as of the present or soon to be ?
Some of the following which is Bracketed is seemingly the posts from a individual with a Vested Interest in the Company producing the Phonostage.
With such a knowledge, I am to assume much being said is a cacophony of bias loaded statements to be used as supporting marketing sales spiel.
For myself being one that is an advocate of using a SUT, the sales spiel being purported, is strongly suggesting a SUT is liked by this Model of a Commercially Offered Phonostage, when married up to the MM Input.
The SUT info is sort of confusing for myself to fully comprehend, when the info is seemingly supplied by an individual spending much of their forum time advising on not using SUT's. Does likes to mean a very worthy challenger to the Phonostages MC Input ?
I know there is regularly references to Translation to American English being a weak point, which leaves the question ?
Is the following what is meant by "analize the whole subject in objective/subjective equilibrium " ?
________________________________________________________
" don't try to help the OP and they do not like to analize the whole subject in objective/subjective equilibrium. "
" Objectivity and subjectivity in equilibrium is the name of my audio " game ". "
" hand tested each part, we don’t let nothing at random everything was measured. Along those chasing " numbers " we made really hundreds of listen tests in several room/system and always testing with the same LP tracks. "
You are right, your 3160 came with the normal gain but the MC2000 it's not a normal output level MC.
___________________________________________________________
It needs 85-86db that the 3180 does it with very low noise, a beauty or through its MM stage that comes with 100k fixed impedance that likes to SUT's.
_____________________________________________________________
|
@mijostyn For the Record, not one copy / paste presented in my last post had anything to do with the individual suggested by yourself as the one being identified.
On a completely different note, a very recent Health Issue that is very luckily discovered and is now undergoing the earliest treatment.
Has a Prognosis attached, that strongly suggests my forum activities are much better for my health, if exchanged for a use of available time, that is spent being more mobile and participating in light activities for the next upcoming months.
I am happy to initiate this new approach when convalescing, and put more time and intentions into my Grandchildren, Nature Photography and Recording Sound from the Natural Environment. These are the only real thing I can do, to help teach the G'children things that are a concern, as well as show how modern methods being adopted by Humans are really impacting on Local Flora - Fauna. This is part of a Country Wide initiative, to help Map locations that are showing where regenerative conservation action can be diverted to.
I will be avoiding posting on this or other forums for the foreseeable future, maybe only using the forums I use, to keep the contacts I have communicated with, informed, enabling myself to complete a few outstanding visits to the homes of others when lengthy travel is able to be carried out by myself with no health concerns attached.
|
|
@mulveling stated "EAR made a head-amp unit "The Head" which is discontinued and hard to find used (and sought after by some) - supposedly very good".
I have been very curious about this model for many many years, it is a SUT and is produced at a time before EAR was an Incorporated Company.
Not to long ago an infrequent attendee of the local HiFi Group brought their bought at the time of production for £200 TX 4 'The Head' SUT, which the owner referred to the model as being 'The Brick', to be demo'd.
The TX 4 was compared to a few SUT's which I will say as a comparison. The short in length demo's showed the TX 4 to be much more extrovert and out in the room, voluminous and room filling are a very noticeable trait from its presentation.
During the short Demo's the TX 4, seemed to draw parity in a comparison with a Group Members own design Head Amp. These Two both produced very Transparent room filling sound. The TX 4 might be the least Rich in Tonality SUT I have been in front of?
The following is apparently a extract of a correspondence being had with TDP in 2016.
"I will try to find old literature , how dare you say I did not design lock stock and barrel everything in the HEAD TX4?
I do all my own transformers not like my competitors who go to mr transformer man please make me transformer! I designed the step up device in 1979 to be the best in the world period. More bandwidth more headroom better square wave etc. Still no one has matched it. If I had to market today I would have to price it at £3000. I made about 200 units. I will not disclose winding details or core type other than usual mumetal 78% Nickel. The highest inductance core material".
|
@lalitk I stand strong in my expressed certitude, that the usual use of Audio Equipment as a means to replay recorded music is only a Hobby/Enthusiasm to participated in as a means of entertainment, no different to how any other experience had of encountering music or music/song is expected to offer. I fail to see how the usual use of Audio Equipment is able to be suggested to be anything else but a method to be entertained.
There is a goal to be achieved, which is to create an end sound that is clearly understood as a being a performance which is recorded and able to produce Music or Music/Song.
With the permutations available today for the Sources, Amplification, Speakers, there is much to be read that very strongly suggests there is not a ubiquitous path taken by individuals for their selecting particular devices for the assembly of the Audio System.
It can be seen on regular occasion, especially within forums, that an individuals choice being made for devices to be used in their Audio System are not able to be embraced, accepted or encouraged by another. Is this not quite strange as a outcome, when mostly all of the individuals in communication, are all sharing about what they have chose as devices to entertain themselves only.
It does seem that through creating increased experiences of available Audio related devices. That different options for devices being experienced in use, have for some become a more attractive device to wed themselves to.
One person or a group of individuals expressing their preference for a particular device. Certainly does not mean it is a better choice over another's, who is not showing intent to experience such a device.
From my own end, I am yet to encounter a DD, ID, BD TT, in the past 30+ Years that has not been able as a Source to replay recorded Music or Music/Song to a level that has not been able to be enjoyed. The same can be said for Amplification and Speakers encountered in the same timeline which have been used with TT's as a Source. I do totally agree, one permutation type of Source > Amp > Speakers will on many occasions produce an end sound that can have a noticeable difference to another type of permutation of Audio Devices having been assembled.
My usage of Idler Drives have a long term history, and more than one ID is still owned.
When ID's are worked with in the way you have selected for your 301. My experiences of doing work that comes from a similar thought, as well as experiencing work carried out quite similar to the methods chosen by yourself. Strongly suggest there is something very attractive to be discovered.
I would very much like to experience the Reed TA as well. My local HiFi Group has a member who is also a Proprietor of a Audio Business. This Business supplies TA's of which there are Reed TA Models offered. To date the Group Sessions I have been able to attend has been demo'd a TA from this individual, being the Glanz MK 1200S. Which at a later date, and after a selection of TA's being trialed, inclusive of my loaned SME IV, become a group members TA. The 1200S, ended up being used with a Miyajima Cart'. Experiencing this TA>Cart' has always been very much enjoyed as a experience.
|
@dogberry not a quick recovery or one needing congratulations, but at present my recovery going better than was suggested by a Consultant. I am now up to 8000 Steps on Three Days during a week, with other walk outs being much lesser in Steps on intermediate days. I'll take that as a win, as I this is doing better with my aerobic recovery than was anticipated.
I also did manage to get out and share time with a friend, experience their Home Audio System for a short period on the weekend. Maybe the meeting with a friend was the experience that was the milestone as a point in recovery, the music encounter be just that a music encounter.
As for the rest of the attachments that can be added by another to what a use of a Audio Systems is presented as meaning. I'm sure there are plenty out there, I'm sure they are all able to be a furthering of a form of entertainment when discovered.
|
Note: It is not any Radio, it is a @mijostyn Radio
When I use my Xbox F1-23 Game for entertainment as a driving experience, I am convinced the set up for the gaming experience is able to bring me extremely close to being a F1 Teams Driver at a Race Track. Or maybe?, I am just over exaggerating what I am perceiving, as I have never had my Xbox at a F1 event with the access to being a F1 Driver and a F1 gamer in conjunction .
Ones mind can play great tricks on oneself.
|
I remain an advocate of the SUT in use. I am also very aware of the additional connections required to be used, and know from experiences had there is more to be achieved on this area.
In other Threads, I have referred to the use of Low Eddy RCA Connectors on both Cables and Chassis of the Amp, where A/B comparisons were carried out with SAEC XL 5000 Cables and a Bespoke Built SS Phon's MC Input / Output on the Analogue Signal Path belonging to the Audio System used for the Demo's.
Experiencing the use of Low Eddy RCA connectors on the Analogue Signal Path, as a subjective evaluation was describable as being transformative for the betterment of the Audio System end sound, when used in the permutation of Low Eddy RCA Connectors and PC Triple C Wire, being used as the Signal Path from Cart' Lead Out Pins to Power Amp's and as Speaker Wire, I also believe on this occasion the Internal Cabinet Wire was PC Triple C as well, it it was not, it is now.
When my Analogue Source is once more set up, this type of permutation is the first of the changes to be put in place.
The PC Triple C Wire is to be used where it can be utilised within Devices and Low Eddy RCA's are to be added to Cables and Chassis in conjunction with XLR Connectors as another option. These connections will be in place on both the Power Amp and the Pre Amp design yet to be built. I am today convinced that having both options for umbilical's is where I want to be.
My suggestion made in the past and now repeated. Is that when the Warranty Period is no longer in place on devices and if the desire is surfacing to learn if additional end sound quality can be attained. The use of Low Eddy Connectors and PC Triple C wire in the Signal Path has great potential be the method to create the improvement desired.
|
The journey into learning the value of protecting the Styli from be detrimentally impacted on by Ambient Energies being Transferred to it, has many pluteus of discovery to be made.
A Sub - Plinth with a same or alternative type of footer s good second attempt. There are numerous permutations to be pondered and tried out, all in good time though.
|
I am familiar with Phasemation Audio Devices, they are usually handled in the UK by the Audio Dealers who work towards giving a customer something that can be very appealing without having to reach too far with their finances.
I am with experiences of Cart’s and a few Phonostages in a selection if systems and also have heard a Phon’ Model not too long ago in a Audio System I am very familiar with. I was also being familiarised at this time with a Bespoke Produced SS Phon, also carried out on a Audio System I am very familiar with in use. ’ which for myself, proved to be very impressive. The Phasemation and the other Phon’ being both SS Designs were for myself very impressive demonstrations.
I am confident in stating Phasemation are a Company that are able to offer products that create that little extra, which wins over loyal followers, who return to their products.
I feel very confident if the Phasemation SUT shown in the Link, was able to be acquired at the money as seen at the time of this post, even with the shipping fee, there will be a very happy customer.
In context, both of my used SUT’s each cost more than twice this price seen at the present, as a Commissioned Produced end product.
https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/auction/yahoo/input/1151091863/
The next link will be one of interest in a discussion on SUT's.
https://www.analogueseduction.net/phono-stages-phono-boards/Phasemationcst2000.html
|
