Dar @maxson : Good that you are hapy with the Piccolo current design.
As @lewm posted exist several phono stages designed that way and I already posted that that kind of design is an old phono stage kind of design from the 80's when I owned one. In those time never had success.
In the last ( more or less ) 10 years that old kind of phono stage design is the fashion, mainly for each one of us knowledge levels in that specific regards ( including mijos. ).
Here what and Agoner posted:
" I was recently reading a Unami test report and the reviewer used the unami with a CH Precision P1 using both the voltage and current imputs. He indicated the unami sound better with the voltage input vs current. He stated from experience low internal resistance alone less than 10 ohms doesn't guaranty good sound with a current input phono stange and listed a few very expensive cartridges with resistances in the 2ohm range that sound better with voltage input phonos. "
Btw, he owns the Umami along the Lino C and he feels no " confortable " with that phono stage.
Other that the cartridge is a voltage item and looks for a voltage phono stage design and that almost 100% of cartridges were and are voiced by its designers/manufacturers with voltage phono stage designs we need to know what marketing mades/makes inthis specific regards.
Some top phono stage designs as CH gives us both alternatives voltage/current owner choice and doing that they take advantage with a higher price tag but not because the current design be the main characteristic of its units where the main characteristic is voltage choice and current choice is only a " side line ".
Now is way easy to design and manufacture a phono stage current design but a truly good phono stage voltage design require not only higher knowledge levels from the designer but higher skills too . With a current design we always are at random of the kind of sound we will listen, is full of limitatios and with the voltage designs we can use 100% ( active high gain units ) of vintage and today cartridges at any price tag levels.
As an audiophile and audio item buyer each one of us is absolutely free to makes his choices because is him who must live with those choices.
The Audio Life is a day by day learning open book, the issue is if we can learn or willing to do it from that open book.
The pleasure to listen MUSIC as nearer to the recording in our systems will be as high or low as all our choosed trade-offs quality levels to build that audio system.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
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@mijostyn : " The old current phono stage design is a problem, first because the cartridge is a voltage item and second because it does not works with all LOMC cartridge ."
The main issue is that cartridge manufacturers make the cartridges voicing using voltage phono designs not current design.
JC even has his own voltage phonolinepreamp and Ortofon does the same.
I'm not talking of what we like but about that main cartridges issue.
If you did not like the Lambda SL in voltage design then you can be sure that something is not working totally fine in the system.
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Dear @mijostyn : " I can enjoy music on a transistor radio. "
At least in the last 20-25 years I posted exactly that dozens and dozens times, totaly right.
" Being an audiophile is about the sound for which there are innumerable definitions. For me it is recreating the live performance on my audiophile system. "
Well said it.
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@mijostyn : That you like to live in the " error " does not means that other gentlemans could do it even that many stay as you are.
The old current phono stage design is a problem, first because the cartridge is a voltage item and second because it does not works with all LOMC cartridge and even the Ortofon MC Diamond that is one outside the limitations on current design you posted here that you like more in the voltage design but not only you say that because many owners of CH phono stage with both options prefers the voltage one and other gentleman in this thread that own both kind of separate current and voltage units design prefers the voltage one.
mijos it’s the same as those gentlemans that like to own a dedicated SUT for an specific cartridge what is way way and high limitation and only justified if you will live for ever with that only cartridge and we all know that almost no one lives with one cartridge but over the months or years to come always we buy new cartridges with different characteristics but as I said: to each his own. Fortunatelly not my problem.
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@cleeds : AR, yes you are rigth because is not a tube but and hybrid one. My mistake.
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@mijostyn : AR, VAC and MAC use SUTs ( passive not active designs. ). In that list I can add: Parasound, Levinson, Boulder, Gryphon, D'Angostino.
" It is much easier to make a transformer ", yes way easy but audio phono stage manufacturers do not build the SUT, they buy from different SUT sources. So way way more easy to design a phono stage with.
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You was lucky to found out at NOS of that cartridge. Good.
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@lewm : What do you think of your 2000 press fitted cantilever: it's and original cartridge or could be that you bougth a retipped sample?
Thank's in advance.
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@lewm : " , many more.... (Mind has gone blank.) "
PS Audio Stellar deserves to be in your list. Btw, really good that you posted Simaudio as and excellent unit.
@lalitk : " offering good head amp/phono stage. My Google search did not show any good results. "
Not show because does not exist. What exist are phono stages with active high gain for MC and MM cartridges. The lewm list named these kind of units.
@mikelavigne posted in this thread about the phono stage active high gain design that he owns:
" they are very fine and i do use them and appreciate their low noise and dynamics. " I can add that no passive unit can't even or beats those chjaracteristics and several more.
lalitk: @glennewdick posted :
" A good gain stage to me sounds better then a SUT. A good analogy would be an active preamp compared to a passive preamp. Both can be great under the right build quality and situation. But for me the active is more engaging. "
and other than me and lew and the ones posted here other two gentlemans have the same kind opinion for active high gain phono stages.
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@lewm : As you know I owned 3 original MC2000, yes I like it. All came directly from Ortofon to me in México ( no distributor in my country. ).
In those times no one not even reviewers looks at the stylus/cantilever joint under microscope so I can't attest on it. One of those samplezs made a trip to VDH for boron cantilever and it ouperformed the other two.
Now, i still ownthe MC20MK2 that's a model that appeared before the 2000, it has aluminum cantilever and loking with my microscope it came glued and I still own the 3000MK2 model that was in the market after the 2000 and comes too with aluminum cantilever and the stylus is glued.
Next is the only picture that I can get from the net but I think we can't be sure if its press fitted or glued:
3523866-a44425b6-mega-rare-cartridge-ortofon-mc2000-and-t2000-with-boxes.jpg (1100×824) (canuckaudiomart.com)
Due to the other Ortofon cartridges samples I have on hand seems to me a little weird that the 2000 was not glued.
@kennyc the PS audio is at high end market niche almost inexpensive unit that's a true challenge to other SS very top units with a price tag over 50K ( this was what reported M.Fremer. ).
In the other side and with all respect to him I think that not only you but no audiophile can take really seriously a gentleman like @lalitk that ( as he said/posted ) had not direct experience with SUT and who told you:
" I would encourage you to try SUT. " @lalitk this truly creates " confussion " and not the facts I posted and that you said creates " that ".
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@mulveling : " just wasn't the right tonal balance in my system for my ears. "
Normally subjectivity is the personal characteristic that dominates the audio world against objectivity because normally too silver win over cooper but I can attest my self experiences like that yours only between different SUT manufacturers where the cooper Denon Murata outperforms several silver wired SUTs as the Audio Note and made it easily....
Now in your case is in the same model where I imagine that both SUTs shares the same design and this gives you the opportunity to think and make a system deep search trying to find out why what in " paper " should be better it's not through your first hand experiences other that the silver one was not inside specs for whateever reasons. At least is what I do in cases as this one. Everyday is a day to learn or confirm what we already know.
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Dear @lewm : " aluminum cantilevers or any other type where the stylus can be press-fitted into the cantilever, rather than glued to a blank surface, may actually be an advantage. The glue adds extra mass just where you don't want it.. "
Did you listen an aluminum cartridge cantilever with stylus press fitted?
Probably not but I did it.
In the long MM thread JC posted that aluminum subject just as a characteristic and were some audiophiles as me that took that " road " in my case because my tought was that exist a more direct conection between the stylus and cantilever.
Higher moving mass? how much higher? because today stylus glued almost you can't see the " glue ". n the other side and as anything in audio always exist trade-offs and my first hand experiences about told me that the glue stylus/cantilever function as a very good feedback damping and a very good damp for the tremendous developed forces during tracking with out really makes a " damage " to that minimum " high " moving mass.
Now you have some cartridges including the MC2000 where you can have a real first hand experience next time that you need to re-tip it.
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Dear @kennyc : " have Koetsu stone and Ortofon SPU carts which reportedly work well with SUTs. "
Do it you a favor and just forget ( for now ) what other reported because the type of higher distortions/fake colors that they like maybe do not like you because your targets could be different.
If what you want is to listen what's in recording then forgeret about SUTs that only degrades the cartridge signal and no matter what can't improve/enehance in any way the cartridge signal.
You can read this M:Fremer full review on this active high gain MM/MC phono stage and take a look with wich cartridges he reviewed along which preamp:
PS Audio Stellar Phono phono preamplifier | Stereophile.com
M.Fremer:
"
I recommend a listen to the Stellar to anyone in the market for a new phono preamp, regardless of price. I don't think I've ever written that before. Like darTZeel's clever engineer Hervé Delétraz, Myers designs using a deft combination of technical knowhow and careful listening, more interested in the sonic outcome than in getting the absolute best measured performance. In my view, that's a winning approach.
Footnote 1: As you can see in the measurements section, JA called the RIAA response "superbly accurate." "
Or you can go for the Phonolinepreamp as Dartzeel or Boulder. Just remember that the quality sound in any LOMC cartridge depends not only of a first rate phono stage but needs to a first rate line stage preamp.
If you can, stay far away from any SUT at any price MUSIC deserves a lot more than just that and you too.
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@mijostyn : Yes, you have to and play and listen with. I owned the boron and sapphire/ruby and really did not like me its quality build.
Now, SAS had one for Technics cartridge ( boron ) and almost all the owners were not satisfied with .
If you don't like it and due that the Shure V15-V was the top of the line and very good performer you can send to J.Long to fix it with the first rank quality build by Namiki boron MR or other alternatibe could be the boron Shibata ( 72um.) he has both and other options from Gyger and Ogura.
Good luck.
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@dover : Very good eye in the Jico drawing comparison. Thank's.
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@mijostyn @dover : Do you know why Jico can't use MR word? because is a Namiki trade mark.
Now, what I remeber of Jico SAS samples is tha's it quality is not really top ( that's why only 500 hours as Jico specs. ).
His site does not said everything because in the contact surface numbers by Shibata stylus Jico choosed the old Shibata one even that exist 3 Shibata dimensions and one of them is 72um surface contact.
The ruby/sapphire price is a trick because Jico knows that boron is way better but knowledge level in audiophiles looks Ruby word and its ignorance makes they think is a jewel and must be better. Jico takes advantage of our ihnorance levels.
mijos, you can try at thde end you need it. In good shape go a head.
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@mijostyn : Today Jico has not the exact replacement for the V15 V and in its site looks as the SAS/MR does not exist and certainly not for the Shure model you are looking for. This is the SAS and it’s not close the Gyger S/Replicant 100 or MR:
@dover I never seen that SAS MR stylus tip because or the stylus shape is SAS or is MR: both are not exactly the same.
@lewm this is the third on the row cartridge expert as Jico that stated on cantilever Boron material:
"
is one of the most suitable materials for cantilevers. its density is low, Young’s modulus is large, and the speed of sound propagation is approximately 2.6 times faster than that of aluminum. ""
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lewm , those are numbers of the materials characteristics that that true expert took ( I only pasted his information and I think that he knew why and certainly he knows a lot more that you and me together. ) ) and every one knew that the cantilever does not " sense " sound but the groove modulations: are you trying to discover the " black thread " with your post? and about the aluminum that was very first posted in the long MM thread: your " notice " is very old but no problem with.
Btw, that " aluminum advantage " is not really one against boron or diamond cantilevers and that’s it why top today cartridges use boron/diamond and not aluminum with stylus pressed fitted. Yes was JC who shared that aluminum subject in the MM thread. Aluminum stylus pressed/fitted is no existence in the Lyra cartridges however I did it with more than 7+ vintage cartridges in the past and was a mistake from my part. I will let for other specific thread but in the long MM was posted.
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@mijostyn : I remember that you posted that you never buy the Etsuro Gold because its tracking spec is lower than 80um.
Well Excel was founded like 50 years ago and today the manufacturer workers changed because that problem with the tracking abilities of the Etsuro Gold is similar to thr Hana top of the line, not very good trackers.
In change in the past the Excel ES-10 ( same sapphire top plate than Etsuro Gold. ) has a 90um tracking ability with an output level of 0.2mv when the today designs are in the 0.35-0.4mv, here lower mv output level is better.
I don't know how much spend lalitk for the Etsuro but last year ( NOS ) I bougth the Excel for only 200.00 and is a great performer with out " luxury " and only high quality level and yes outperforms the Gold that I listened in my system last year ( I posted on the gold somewhere. ). If I remember I share with you the opportunity and you told me that like to liven in the present. Time to time discovering the past is " fantastic " and a " surprise ", worth to do it and is a " win to win " choice. Some of the best designs came from the past.
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@mijostyn : If you own the cartridge body then the best is to fix it with boron cantilever and MR stylus tip and not SAS boron.
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Dear @lalitk : " we should always respect the views of other participants even if you don’t agree with them. "
Please show me 4-5 posts where I did not respect the views of any other participant. The REAL ISSUE ( for me ) is not to agree or not or convice or not to any one:
My posts in this thread are almost all ALERTS/WARNINGS not only to the gentlemans in this thread but for all who read the thread and is not fear for them not to have or analize a different " true " based in first hand experiences and with all those facts posted in almost each post by me when no one in this thread not only just did not post any fact that be the foundation on his or their posts or posted that I’m just wrong. So, where is or are my disrespect to other gentlemans.
I think that only " dover " really has the knowledge levels about and first hand experiences on the issue just like me.
"
The choice between ruby, boron, or diamond as cantilever materials is not solely based on the “superlative” qualities of one material over another but rather on how each material’s properties align with the design goals for the cartridge.
The choice of cantilever material is a balancing act between performance, cost, and the desired sound signature ".
@lalitk , next are statements from one of the few and the bigger more experimented manufacturer of cantilever/stylus tip in the world:
"
The stylus cantilever of a record cartridge, like the stylus itself, is an important part of the vibration system and necessary in order to transmit the vibrations accurately from the record to the stylus.
A variety of materials such as aluminum, sapphire, beryllium, diamond and boron are used to make stylus cantilevers of different shapes and dimensions. The lighter and stiffer the material, the better and more accurately the stylus cantilever can transmit vibration.
Diamond, the hardest material on earth, is possibly the best material for use in audio equipment. It does not easily deform when force is applied, and the sound transmission speed is overwhelmingly faster than other materials. When playing a record, the stylus tip/cantilever traces the groove with great precision
Boron Rod
Large elastic modulus, high specific rigidity, and speedy sound transmission. The tip is fixed with adhesive due to fragility and limits in processability. Cost performance is outstanding. """
and here some material number characteristics:
MOHS Hardness:
- diamond 10 and Boron the next down step with 9.3
-Young’s Modulus:
- diamond 1210, boron 690 and ruby/sapphire 372 Btw, berylium 287
Density p:
-boron 2.41 vs 4.0 in ruby/sapphire.
Sound speed:
- diamond 18,000, boron 16,500 ruby 11,200.
Enough in numbers that are what it counts in the overall cartridge quality performance.
My first cartridge with Ruby cantilever was the Dynavector Karat 23 R ( very short cantilever. ) I owned and bougth because was a " novelty " and because my ignorance knowledge level but too because Dynavector manufactured his even today fenomenal diamond cantilever 13D and maybe for the same reason other manufacturers choosed ruby as cantilever material.
Around those years Audio Technica designed his first diamond cantilever cartridge in its MC 1000 that I owned and almost at the same time AT designed its ruby cantilever AT 37 that I owned too. Then ADC Astrion ( owned ), Grace ruby I owned ), Highphonic MC R5, Supex 1100R ( I owned too. ). Still down there the ignorance issue from my part.
Other were Sao Win, BM Ruby and Ortofon Jubilee, all these already sold
I had the opportunity to compare same cartridge motor/body with ruby cantilever vs hardened tapered Al in the AT line with the AT 36: way superior to the AT 37, same inside the Benz Micro line vs the non-ruby cantilever and Ortofon was not the exception neither.
"" ruby provides a unique character that appeals to certain listeners and aligns with the luxury branding of products like those from Etsuro ""
not exactly to the MUSIC reproduction but " certain listeners "
"" the luxury branding of products like those from Etsuro. "" , that’s it " luxury " due that sapphire/ruby shines and boron not and the same for the cartridge body laquer/Urushi but at the end it’s a Hana non luxury cartridge.
Now, in the vintage times Excel was in the USA market with its USA Argent brand where they had a diamond catilever one and a sapphire/ruby cantilever too and this one was theonly fail in the market I know about Excel.
Only for your records: that sapphire base/cartridge top plate in the Etsuro Gold and in the one you bougth is exactly the same( same size too. ) in its 1979 top of the line LOMC ES-10 that I still own and no it does not came with sapphire/ruby cantilever Excel knows exactly what they do with its own brand cartridge and Etsuro is one of those " listeners " you are talking about.
@mijostyn " should be inherent in the music itself, rather than introduced or altered by our choice of gear. We may choose a different path but the end goal is to end up with a system that faithfully reproduces the original recording, allowing the music to speak for itself without any additional influence from the components " good said because Musicality persé is only an audiophile adjective.
That luxury with Etsuro or silver wired SUT is part of our ignorance levels and sellers/manufacturers take advantage$$$$ of that low level knowledge about but this is the market: offer and demand and who win? $$$$$ no one else.
@mijostyn "" I want to know exactly what is on the record and nothing else. On the very best systems colored equipment always shows itself as flawed. ""
I can't add nothing to your exceptional statement.
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Dear @mijostyn : I owned that Shure V15 and other Shure models and I know very well ( by first hand experiences. ) Jico SAS developments and owned the normal SAS, the Boron and the Ruby/sapphire SAS.
I remember in those times that in other than the long MM thread we have a dialogue about ad the gentleman that posted the first time about the SAS Ruby was extremely disappointed by its quality performance against the SAS Boron and I was in agrenment with him Jco SAS Ruby was almost a trash. I return it to JICO and they accepted the cacelation in change of JICO SAS Boron for other cartridge.
You know very well Lyra designer and he never used ruby cantilevers in his cartridges but boron and boron with deposited diamond as in your Atlas Lambda SL.
There are very good reasons ( later in my next post ) why boron and diamond are true cartridge References, ruby is out of question.
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@lalitk : the first statement in your link by the manufacturer is:
" the EQVES line has become a successful example of devices with which you can color your analog system. "
If that " color " is what you want, that's it.
Btw, do you know why Excel did not choosed ruby material in the cantilevers in its own cartridges been the manufacturer of Etsuro and instead used BORON material?. Very simple ruby has not the superlative characteristic as boron or diamond in catilevers and Etsuro choosed ruby, ??? ? ! ! I mentioned these twice in other threads. Good luck with.
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@lalitk : " You can buy SUT with a phase equalizer option. "
well and you can follow adding higher distortion and it’s not only phase but other kind of distortions too. If this is your reproduction system " game " just go a head. Remember my post?: shorter path for the cartridge signal.
Btw, @mulveling " SUTs actually increase the Koetsu magic. "
if for magic you means its quality level performance then your statement is totally false.
No single system link where the cartridge signal must pass through can IMPROVE/ENHANCE that signal in anyway only can degrades.
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Dear @mulveling : With all respect you don’t need to be " ironic " or post that kind of " taunt ".
I know who you are and your overall high knowledge levels and I know for sure that you undersand exactly what I posted that from my part was not a way to " taunt " of any one of you but only facts. You already know that no single of your SUTs has that kind of wide FR and you know too the importance of that spec in any SUT.
Btw, the AU-1000 transformers are not silver wired and were made expressely by Tamura exclusively by Denon order. No other Tamura transformers came close to the ones in the AU-1000.
In the vintage years Tamura and Altec were the best transformers as a line models. Some of them silver wired.
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@dover : Of course that the transformers are a fraction of those kg..The realsubject of my post is its wide frequency range. I still own that AU-1000 hard wired by me from the transformers to output connectorsandmeasured from around 3hz to over 300khz.
The Denon unit transformers are just " incredible " with no developed hum/noise and way low THD.
No one of the SUTs owned by the gentlemans that posted here comes near to the quality Denon performance even almost no one are flat in such wide frequency range that's unique and in benefit of MUSIC reproduction..
Several audiophiles on this " SUT's party " have any idea what I'm talking about when theyare so happy with those SUT they own that does not permits that the cartridge can shows at its best.
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Dear @mdalton : " this thing seems serious - I think it weighs north of 7 lbs! "
Seriously?.You have to know that the Denon AU-1000 weigths 12kg. ( not lbs. ) and has a frequency response from 5hz to 200khz, this is the important and critical spec for any SUT and MUSIC. Do you know the FR of the one you are " surprised "by its 7lbs.?
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Dear @lalitk : I'm sorry to insist and disturb you:
" On my last shootout with T+A and Dartzeel, I preferred the synergy between the Accuphase...."
As I said before good for you that your unit outperformed the very well regarded top Dartzeel elctronics but ( as you said ) after dozens of post you showed no single word about MUSIC and you will do some comparattion tests between all the units options you will have on hand.
The 650 outperformed the Dartzeel because?: better transient response? better tigth low bass? better mid-bass or low midrange? better dynamics and lower noise levels? better natural color of the MUSIC?, better resolution?, better harmonics or wider frequency ranges? better high frequency range?, using which LP tracks?
I ask again because outperforms the Dartzeel are " big words " and you follow staying " dead silence " about MUSIC ( not only you but all other gentlemans too. Only hardware. ) and its characteristics in a units comparisons.
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@lewm : " the Allnic, reported by Raul as "0.4db" "
my mistake because is even worst because is: 0.6db. that RIAA deviation and the unit has not the critical Neumann pole.
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Dear @lalitk: I started to post in this thread in the page 2 and from there I was the only person that touched that " equilibrium " not one but 4 times, here the other 3 that confirm I'm in agreeing up on even that no one posted:
" don't try to help the OP and they do not like to analize the whole subject in objective/subjective equilibrium. "
" Objectivity and subjectivity in equilibrium is the name of my audio " game ". "
" hand tested each part, we don’t let nothing at random everything was measured. Along those chasing " numbers " we made really hundreds of listen tests in several room/system and always testing with the same LP tracks. "
@lalitk obviously that you know that 0.4 db deviaiton in the RIAA of your integrated and that number ( for an SS unit.) is unaceptable but been the design of the 650 was not main focus the phono stage because it's an integrated unit where normally designers look to the amplifier design.
Btw, and after rea ldozens posts by youin the thread you showed not aminimum minimum EQUILIBRIUM. Objectivity just does not exist for you because goes totally againts what you want and these are facts.
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Dear @mulveling : " listening experience and perception is key. I realize that some find this perspective worthless. "
I agree and for me it's not worthless. With out those first hand experiences we can't grow up along each one of us objectivity trying to keep a rational equilibrium in between.
Thank's for your answer, appreciated.
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Dear @herman : I know you by Agon since 15-20 years and I know that even you teach for some years circuit theory.
Again: I’m not chasing numbers. I posted " thousands " of times that my main syatem target is to stay nearer to the recording and to reach that target you need accuracy at each single chain system link and at the end you need " numbers " to look how accurate is " this or that " and not only in the RIAA but in THD or IMD:WE NEED NUMBERS, and like you posted: everything the same lower numbers are better.
I know very well your high knowledge levels but in audio phonolinepreamp designs you need skills too and more important is CREATIVITY because with out this you can’t reach that main target.
Now, been a circuit theory teacher along working in electronics I think that you understand that for the truly sensible output levels of the cartridge signal a short circuit path road for that signal outperforms a longer one: rigth?. Maybe not because in your system you choosed the long path for the cartridge signal. This behavior makes no sense to me knowing your technical background. @lalitk this for me is not " disrespect " not with herman or with any other Agon member never. @mulveling things are that normally I really have serious problems to explain me in english ( " become a demonstration of how NOT to effectively communicate. ) that’s not my native language along that I always try to be direct and always trying to help and not to destroy: I don’t say " look as white " if it’s white and then I say is white. Yes, several times Agoners think that I’m truly agressive because when something seems to me ( first hand experiences. ) is wrong I post is wrong no matter what but I don’t said in that way trying to diminish the other person in any way and I’m sorry for that.
Now and returning to that creativity what my technical friend ( designer ) and partner in the phonolinepreamp manufacturedid it was to " invent/creative " a propietary technique using ( between other things. ) the digital domain audio signal to calibrate in real time each one phonolinepreamp RIAA that allows an overall phono re-equalization accuracy to within +/-0.01 dB, guaranteeing that the musical information decoded by the preamplifier is completely neutral to the input source.
That means accuracy to reach my main system targe. Well this care wit that unit is the care we took in the selection parts that we did it hand tested each part, we don’t let nothing at random everything was measured. Along those chasing " numbers " we made really hundreds of listen tests in several room/system and always testing with the same LP tracks.
At the end what I did it and do in my room/system is not chasing numbers but chasing accuracy and proudly I can say that I achieved and the system has a very high resolution . Next is the link of my virtrual Agon system, yes to long to read it but for me is interesting and explain why it looks here as if I’m chasing " numbers " and why I use transistors instead tubes and why I don’t use any more SUT’s:
On the Quest of Audio Heaven. | Virtual Listening Room (audiogon.com)
Btw, @lalitk it’s a must that the phono stage you choose comes with the RIAA 3.18us pole that’s where the cutting machine stops ( around 50khz-60khz ) to avoid the cutting head burn-in. Not all the phono stages comes with and not all the ones that have it have it with out phase developed " problems ". Nearer to the recording means that the 3.18us most be " there " in your phono stage. Btw, the real issue with my posts in this thread is that what I said goes against what you want it and I don’t posted trying to " hit " you in any way but trying to help trying that you avoid the other gentlemans mistakes/errors because they are wrong ( with all respect ): black is black, no other word .
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@herman : No, I did not. In that measure regards you have not ( yet ) the knowledge level and skills to do it and understand it instead to follow chasing " numbers " or errors by me.
A mistake, it’s not 0.01 but 0.012. We did it and do it with each phonolinepreamp RIAA calibration in real time . No, you will never know ( the Audio precision System 2 is useless for that. ) and no we can’t have two phonolinepreamps with exactly the same RIAA calibration values ( very near in between but not exactly. We can do it with a little higher tolerance. ) because is almost imposible to match exactly all RIAA circuit parts.
Again, I’m not chasing numbers and I don’t care how good sounds your system because is your system and what you like . Again, you are not so demanding as I’m with the overall quality LP reproduction room/system. That’s all. You need to understand that.
Good day too.
Btw, @lewm , if you can’t hear differences then you need to fine tune your room/system because I know you are not deaf. No, I don’t want to follow arguing with you about, it’s not the OP subject.
R.
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Dear @herman : " chasing numbers like this is a fool’s errand. There are so many errors introduced in so many stages of the process that these small deviations do not matter. "
" focus on things other than getting distortions down to such ridiculously small amounts, like how it sounds. "
Clasic posts of an audiophile but certainly not a MUSIC lover.
Yes,speakers could have several dbs deviation in room frequency response but that is not the issue.
Gentlemans as you are the " market centuries bargain " for the manufacturers/designers/sellers in the audio world where almost none takes care why or what gives me the audio item I buy for the money I paid for it and manufacturers/designers know that they do not have to make a higher quality design efforts due that no one is asking for. Their customers are way " easy " customers " easy " to let satisfied ( just as you. )
That " bargain audio market " it’s conform and with no comply about quality level true performance.
Those gentlemans like you that stay in the " bargain audio market " are the ones that impedes the audio market designs truly grow-up but only " more of the same ".
Look from everywhere and you will see that the quality audio design almost is in stand-by real situation and ( again ) manufacturers are truly happy with because audiophiles today pay 10 times the kind of money for audio units that almost has no true improvements .
However, I can see that you are not using " lamp cord " for the electrical power in your system or a simple IC wire from your tonearm and I can see that you use too a TT " diferent " mat and that you or some one made for you the TT plinth and many other things. Maybe you don’t use a protractor to cartridge/tonearms alignments and many other " maybe’s ". Why took you all that time and money with your room/system modifications including the Voxativ? or why posted those silver connectors picture?. I don’t care, you are.
Now, we can’t modified what already happens in the LP whole recording process but we can take care with the playback proccess and between other several " things ". the RIAA is there.
I know that you should understand that the first main subject to exist a phono stage is because is because the grooves recorded information comes with the RIAA pre-emphasis and we need some way to have the inverse RIAA eq. to translate that recorded information in our " language ", the second main reason exist a phono stage is that we need to amplify the very low cartridge signal levels. A stupid question could be: do you know why the inverse RIAA eq. needs to do it at the very begin of that signal that pick up the cartridge and before any other stage?
What we listen at the other end of the system chain is an accumulation of several kind of distortions/noise/resonances/frequen cy deviations and the like along the room/speakers contribution about.
Why can you change the VTA or VTF or AZ in a cartridge/tonearm combination?. Well and between other things to achieve at minimum any kind of added distortions/degradations to the MUSIC signal.
Obviously that you don’t care about accuracy where it matters " th first " and maybe you don’t care because what you have is what you like it ( btw, the swing in your unit RIAA is 0.6db ) additional I can see that you are not in favor or a cartridge signal short path but the other way around. Nothing wrong with me and neither with you but for the MUSIC tht at the ends is the only subject it matters to me.
In the same way that is critical the cartridge/tonearm accuracy alignment in even more critical way is the phono stage inverse RIAA eq. accuracy. Any single minimal discrete frequency deviation in that curve ( I already posted ) affects at least 2 octaves and its developed harmonics and affects even when you have: + 0.3 or -0.3.
" they get within .01 dB " yes, absolutely I shared several times that RIAA again other phono stages RIAA and do you know how looks in aa chart both channels?.
you can only see a perfect linear line as if be only one channel instead 2. Yes, near perfection and yes I’m way demanding in the MUSIC reproduction needs and yes I know you are not. Nothing wrong with me.
lewm the swing in the RIAA is the true deviation and not only the: +.
R.
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Dear @atmasphere : " this has nothing to do with tubes or solid state. "
Ok, then is a huge coincidence that all SS units outperforms in that regards tube units and according what you posted I can infere that all those tube designers has not the technical knowledge levels and skills.Just incredible that so low level in tube designers. Could be a " shame " for them.
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@lalitk : Just by curiosity I check the RIAA deviation on the Allnic and " one of your favority " Air Tight and what I found out confirm what I posted about the bad RIAA performance with tube electronics:
Allnic has a swing of 0.4db and the AT 3011 is really terrible: 0.4db from 50hz-20khz and -2.5db at 20 hz. Go figure ! ! ! ? ?
R.
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Dear @dogberry : " you can see we should all listen to our music through equipment that we do not like. "
Maybe you but that is not my case.
" I listen for pleasure and I'll maximise that pleasure if I can. "
Me too and my room/system is " build " around that " maximise " to stay nearer to the recording and to the MUSIC. Objectivity and subjectivity in equilibrium is the name of my audio " game ".
There are different levels of pleasure depending which " road " you take or took that depends of each one of us targets.
R.
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@lalitk : There is another way critical issue against MSIC that no one touched in the thread in reference with the option you are looking with tube phono stages and the issue has a name inverse eq. RIAA Deviation:
the today top phono SS stages has A RIAA deviation of at least 0.1db and lower than that, mine is 0.011 and FM Acoustics 0.05.
Tubes units normally have really high RIAA deviation 20hz-20khz some witn a swing over 1 db and why is important this deviation?: because we are talking of a curve where any discrete frequency deviation affects around 2 octaves in that RIAA curve and the deviations exist almost in all discrete frequencies in that RIAA . You can use tubes in any place but phono stage due that in reality makes a damage ( sever ) to that cartridge MUSIC signal. In theory the RIAA eq. in a phono stage should has 0 deviation ( only through digital we can reach that 0 deviation. ) to avoid added signal fully colorations and SS in this regards is better aproach.
So it's not only the SUT but that RIAA too. Do you know the deviation level in the Konus Audio unit or other of your tube options?. I think could be time to ask those manufacturers.
Btw, for almost 10 years I used tube electronics and through my audio life I owen around 15 SUTs as a fact I still own 4 SUTs: Entré, Audiocraft and 2 Denon.
Through my first hand several experiences in my system and other systems I learned a lot and that's why I don't use any single tube in my system.
R.
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@lalitk : " given my investment in Carts (north of $10K), "
Then do it a favor and don't " walk " with back steps. Don't lost MUSIC information and don't add more signal degradations that your beloved cartridges pick-up during its very hard/tremendous effort on LP playback.
R.
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Dear @lewm : " I don’t think you can fairly make a case for SUT over high gain phono on the basis of simplicity. A high gain stage may consist of one gain device at the input of what otherwise is an MM stage. No extra ICs, no outboard chassis, much shorter connections. "
I agree with you and the problem is that exist to many tube owners and ( with all respect ) a high technical ignorance levels ( manufacturers know that but they are doing the bussiness. Taking advantage of the $$$$$ market. ) along that several of us in reality can't appreciate the real MUSIC and almost all go for what they like no matter what even that if what they are listen it is wrong against the active high gain stage. These problems makes that gentlemans as mulveling and all the ones in this thread are happy with SUTs. Even they don't try to help the OP and they do not like to analize the whole subject in objective/subjective equilibrium.
After my post where I mentioned the facts about what the OP want to do no one of these SUT advocates gentlemans makes any single comment: dead silence and I can infere from that that they has to arguments against all those facts other that our famous: " I like it " that is a end of a dialogue. Really pity but such is audio life.
@lalitk Grado Epoch.
R.
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@lalitk : It's weird but no one ask so I would like to ask you:
what do you don't like in your AD-50.What's wrong down there about its quality level reproduction performance?
Thank's.
R.
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Dear @lalitk : Good news from you and for you to know that your Accuphase fulfill better your room/system reproduction targets than the Dartzeel.
Now, I linked those integrated units to compare apples with apples and Accuphase is tour " apple ", good.
Now, when I posted degradation word this means too something we can’t forget and is that added units/items means losting MUSIC information that we can’t recovery and no audio unit can do it. Added tubes in your system chain means ( normally ) higher noise levels vs SS units.
Btw, you and other gentleman posted the word " magic/magical " in reference to quality units performance and those words are audiophile adjectives only. MUSIC is not magic but beauty as sculpture or paints by Rembrandt and the like.
Enjoy your system and good luck.
R.
" so I use the 1931's for that - but otherwise I have a slight preference for direct amplification. "
Coming that statement from @terry9 means a lot for any one.
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Dear @lalitk : " I would like to take things to the next level. Which brings me to mating low output cart with a SUT..."
Well it’s clear that for you it’s the next step however for MUSIC is several back steps.
I can see too that through the whole tread all gentlemans ( MUSIC lovers? ) posted about system hardware and no one " touched " MUSIC that for me is the main target in any room/system in home reproduction.
In a live event almost does not exist anithing but air between MUSIC ( sources ) and we and that’s the whole and biggest diference against LP reproduced MUSIC.
It’s from there where comes that fast transient response and from here is developed the rythm and power dynamics than only live MUSIC achieves.
Recording and playback proccess makes a huge MUSIC degradation through all those " thousands " of steps/interruptions where the MUSIC signal must pass through and at each step is developed and accumulation of MUSIC severe degradation, distortions of everykind and higher noise levels.
So as lower the signal steps as better MUSIC quality levels and now you are thinking to add additional steps against MUSIC. Here what one of your OP electronics alternatives says about its main unit design ( Tron. ):
and for very good reasons due that we need to try to preserve that sensible cartridge signal integrity but in this hardware’s party with the Sut you are adding a longer cartridge signal path than in your today SS Accuphase because you are separating preamp from phono and then Sut and those mean input/output additional metal blend connectors, several solder joints, transformers, not 2cms. of wire but over 1 m. along all the cartridge signal interactions down there.
All those can’t in anyway be an improvement/enhance or better quality sound reproduction but the other way around: only deep degradations with higher developed distortions at any single added step. Again:
VERY SHORT SIGNAL PATH
always is the way to go, less is more and not the " dance " of this party.
You want to " take things to the next level " then you can change the Accuphase for a better SS phonolinepreamp as Gryphon, Boulder, CH or even Dartzeel. In all these units you are not adding nothing but better quality designs that really can improve the MUSIC quality sound. Other alternative is to go not for the Etsuro but for the Lyra Etna Lambda SL.
Those are " next levels " for your system. Obviously that you can follow with the thread’s party.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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