Dear Lotus: For your post: can I assume that you prefer a non-neutral,distorted, non-accurate and colored performance?. Good for you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
The absolute best wyetech labs |
Hi Raul, a provocative post that makes a lot of assumptions. Let me just say that enjoyment, involvement and putting on another record are the absolute goals for me. If the components that do this are neutral or coloured is neither here nor there. I dont evaluate equipment cerebrally but use my heart. In fact some of the most neutral, accurate pieces i have heard ove the years have often also been the most tedious to listen to. I hope that helps. |
The absolute best--insert whatever turns you on,the truth is it's only the absolute best to the fellow who says it is, in his system and with his ears.
In my system it may not be, and over the years I've had several well known phono stages from Atmasphere, CJ,Levinson,Audible Illusions,Sutherland PHD,to name a few,and most recently I'm happy with the Steelhead.
But which one was/is the best?
I can't say, never had them in the same system or at the same time to compare them,but I can say that each one was the best, at that time to my ears in my system.
I can change my opinion on how my phono stage sounds when I listen thru headphones,-the K702 are clean fast and a bit toppy, the Grados are a bit rounder, slower and more middy.
So if I only had the Grados I would say that my phono stage is warm, great in the mid range and the best ever, if I liked middy warm sound.
I think phono stages are no different than anything else.
If you are serious, try more than just one and definitely compare them in your system.
Only then will you know which phono stage is the best.
As I said, I couldn't say which of the phono stages I've owned was the best, but they were all very good. |
Some folks are easier to please than others.
I know when I started out, an LP12 into the phono stage of my NAD 3020,a driving a pair of Rogers LS3/5A was all I needed to please my ears.
Then I had the opportunity to listen to some other systems and discovered I wasn't getting the whole story.
I wasn't getting all the music out of the records that I had purchased.
Kind of like reading a novel part way through or buying one with the last couple of chapters missing.
As you start your way thru the novel you are quite happy, until you discover that something is missing as you reach the end.
As I am approaching the end of my novel,I want to enjoy all that I can.
What I find tedious is that I have to settle for the paperback version.
Enjoyable?
Yes,I've made some improvemnts to my vinyl listening in the last two years,still I am light years away from my friend's vinyl set up,but much closer than I had been.
Not all components which are neutral and accurate can be said to be tedious to listen to.The great audio debate about musicality vs resolution and high priced audio ripp offs always raises it's head.
It's actually the other way around.
When you get rid of colourations, wooly artifical warmth induced by distortions whether 1st 2nd 3rd or 12th,you realize that all that is left for the ear to enjoy is the music and just the music.
All it takes to come to this conclusion is to hear a system that is so effortlessly good that you don't hear the individual components, just the music, unencumbered by anything you can point a finger at.
The music is just "there".
Why settle for a drink of pond scum when you can sip from a pristine pure spring fed stream? |
The absolute best phono stage bar none is the wyetech labs , fits any criteria that you need |
It would be informative if Paypet could elaborate some more about his phono stage experiences. Specifically what other phono stages has he owned and in what areas does the Wytech supass the others he has used?
I have seen and heard the upper Wytech amps and pre at the SSI a few years ago, but it was with an SACD player, no vinyl.
The phono stages would no doubt be of the same fine quality, but I assume they are relatively rare in the marketplace and I don't know if Wytech is back in business,so perhaps there are only a few of them out there.
But is it really the best,there was/is/or ever shall be?
And as the old song goes_"Compared to what?". |
03-27-13: Pavpet
The absolute best phono stage bar none is the wyetech labs , fits any criteria that you need LOL! That's funny, thanks for the chuckle. :) |
03-27-13: Pavpet
The absolute best phono stage bar none is the wyetech labs , fits any criteria that you need
Thanks Pavpet.....what else is best....cable, cartridge...please tell me so I can buy them. |
Ask, Ebm - he'll tell you in less than one sentence 'dude'. |
Ypsilon is the best I've heard of the 25 or 30 I've had through. Forces you to a transformer though. Choise of that is a whole additional peeing contest. |
In my humble experience I go with the Asthetix Rhea. Being a tube unit it seems to convey so much of the music by puuling out the heart and soul of the material that keeps listening for hours and hours with no listen fatique. Very little click and pop from records regardless of age. The most difficult part of determining what phono stage is "better" really comes down to whether one is dryer and analytical while the other is warmer with more mid range. The Rhea is good that I'm saving nickels and dimes for the signature upgrade. After all is said and done I truly believe that a tube based unit is the key. It all comes down to your ears and you hear and what you like to hear. |
I'm putting the finishing touches on a review I am writing about the Liberty B2B-1 phono stage, which I have been home audiotning for the better part of a month now in both solid state and tubes systems, but it should be seriously considered as it is a very fine phono preamp. Stay tuned for a full review. |
I've been listening to vinyl thru headphones,AKG K702/Burson 160 for a few days now.
The phono interconnects are Nordost Frey series 2 into the Steelhead from an SME set up,Clearaudio MC.
What I have found, is that the interconnects from the Steelhead to the Burson make or break the sound.You can easily hear how each IC changes the sound,softening it, blurring the details or taking away the hiss and scratches.
You can hear each of their colourations.Choose the one that suits you best.
Me?
I'm starting my search now,I don't like any of the one's I am using,truth be told, none are anything special.
I did like the Nordost but it's been moved out to do duty in my cd set up.The Nordost let thru more noise than the other cables did.To me that's a good thing.
Let me explain.
It's amazing to me, how a decent headphone system reveals so many differences I never knew were there when listening to speakers.The little distortions in the vinyl chain that a lot of amp/speaker speaker wire configurations mask and are not so noticeable sitting a number of feet away from the speakers which may not be set up correctly in an untreated room.
So a lot more variables to contend with when you start to audition/review phono stages.
Headphones make it so much easier,just make sure the ones you use aren't known for being of the forgiving kind.
That would put you back to square one.
Are we confused yet?
What is clear to me, is that the Steelhead isn't adding any tube noise or hum.No mechanical noise that I can hear.
What it does reveal is all that is wrong with one recording and all that is right about the next adding very little of it's own noise to the mix.At least I don't hear any extraneous noise coming from the Steelhead.
The Steelhead must be adding a sonic signature,all components do, but to me,it's not one that I can say adds or subtracts from the music.
It doesn't add bloom that's not there, it also doesn't sound thread bare.
But it will allow for those distinctions to be heard when they are on caught on the recordings.
My lps do not all sound the same.
Which is how I like it.
In other words, thru the phones, I hear the surface noise on the records that are the most worn.The noise I hear is the noise that is there from the lp.The better shape the lp is in, the less noise I hear in the background.
Granted it is a hybrid,but the there's no euphonic tube sound nor sterile solid state type of sound either, to go to extreme stereotype comparisons. I prefer to run my MC into the MM section and avoid the transformers.There's more than enough gain even using the 55 db setting.
I think anyone contemplating a phono stage,should audition it with a good headphone set up.
By that I mean not the built in headphone jacks found in some pre-amps etc.
The amount of detail,and unfortunately noise,that one can hear this way,to me indicates a phono stage that is not colouring the sound or trying to make every recording sound nice.
It's just telling it like it is.
If you don't hear any occassional scratches, then what else are you not hearing? |
I prefer a phono section that is balanced so I don't have to worry about colorations from the phono cable. Phono cartridges are a balanced source so its nice for the preamp to accept the signal in the balanced domain. The balanced line system was devised to get rid of cable colorations, so this seems like a perfect application- as close to the source as you can get. |
@Kiddman
Good call with the Ypsilon. Had the pleasure of one here for a few days and I agree that it's an amazing stage but of course at a very high price.
Like the Mastergroove and Allnic, in a different league to most mentioned on this thread. The Whests, rhea, steelhead, asr, art audio etc. are all very good and one can understand how an owner might imagine that there can't be much performance beyond them, but IME there most definitely is. I would also love to hear the vitus and i am told the thrax orpheus is also outstanding but the best stages I have heard just get you far far closer to the music, with less distortion, greater dynamics and just a higher sense of naturalness that makes other phono preamps sound veiled, electronic and almost mechanical..
I would also add the built in Soulution phono to the list as well, harder to fully appraise but its definitely right at the cutting edge of whats possible IMO. |
Ralph is correct about his balanced pre and how balanced cables having little or no sonic effect.
At first I didn't think this was the case until I tried some different ones when I had an MP3.
The problem arises when you don't have a headphone amp that is balanced to run into from the Atmasphere.
Maybe that's something for Ralph to consider providing in the future. |
Lacee, there is a simple way to drive any power amp in the differential domain. Most designers don't know their amps have the capacity and so don't provide the connection. PM me if you want more details, or perhaps we can discuss it in a different thread. |
Ralph I am interested in what you have said, and I am sure others are also.
Please elaborate,I am no more important than anyone else on this site,so let us all benefit from your knowledge.
In my case, the Acoustat servo amps at one time did have a bulit in volume control, but they used cheap parts and it was deemed detrimental to the sound of that amp.
Removing it's volume control was one of the first mods made to that amp along with the signal sensing auto on capability.
Pre- amplifiers -we don't need any more amplifying- are mostly for switching from one component to the other, most components have enough gain so that the volume control is really a device that blocks the full power output of the gear not amplify it any more, except of course for a phono signal.
Not news to anyone, but what maybe news is that different volume controls used in the same circuit will produce different sonics.
There's no perfect volume control.
They all degrade the sound.
Some more than others. |
Lacee, with respect to the volume control, it will work better if it is buffered in some way from the amp or interconnect cable it is driving.
For this reason I do not think that having an outboard phono section is a good idea. It works better when integrated into the same box as the line stage. In this way you avoid connectivity issues and troubles with the volume control that otherwise offer colorations that are very difficult to avoid.
Now with regards to the balanced input on an amplifier. All amps (even SETs) have two inputs, non-inverted and inverted. However usually only one connection is used to accept the signal. All I am suggesting is that the second connection is used as well. Many designers of amps have no idea this is possible; for them I recommend looking into the early circuits of George Philbrick, the inventor of the OpAmp. For those that say its not possible I have been doing it for years. |
The Einstein Turntable's Choice has been all I had expected and more. It is the only piece I have that is solid state, but the sound and construction is superb. AND, at only $5,500 new for single-ended, it is pretty competitively priced. 68 db fixed works extremely well with MCs that are in the .24 to .32 mv output. |
What about the Audio Research REF PH2SE? |
In the July issue of Stereophile he reviews and loves the NVO SPA phono stage. I've talked to the importer and they have sold 20 units, I'll have one on order by summers end. |
Is the phono stage you are all referring to, a moving coil cartridge preamp? If so I haven't seen mention of a Mark Levinson JC1-ac. |
Have put my money where my mouth is. New TRON Seven Reference phono for my vintage Decca London C4E cartridge - stunning. Very different to my Allaerts MC1B through my TRON Meteor Preamp (with on board MC phono). Very happy with both options on my Platine Verdier. |
Hi, I had a chance to get a MasterGroove used. When received I found out that the hum/buzz sound was little exaggerated. I did rather away contacted Tom Evans as the MasterGroove is stile under warranty.
Tom explain to my that this high end Phono Stage has a little modification and also can be configured as request according to PickUp and Setup.
Indeed Tom take it back for revision and upgrade and all this works for FREE, smooth and perfect.
If I have to say something about Tom Evans I only will say that he provides High Level support and service with out any doubt.
Now back the the most important question, What is The MasterGroove?
I won't discuss Vinyl or Digital sounding in this issue, but I heard vinyl sound better than CD, this is was not proved for me as I own one of the best CD player in the market, but I never giv up to find a vinyl grey that probably will sound better! from one upgrade to another; pickups, cables tonearms TT etc.. still nothing done the work better than the MasterGroove. Indeed the MasterGroove is a Master WORKS phono stage just 1 minutes playing and you are totally convinced of the high level and the sound that this box produce. The MasterGroove just produce what you want to hear. I don't want to mention the others phono stages I had, but today I'm quit satisfied with this astonishing product. It took times, cost lot of money during times but the MasterGroove is a Myst to have. |
I will add the LKV Research Phono 2-SB |
My modified Essential 3160 is simply phenomenal in its new manifestation. It is the best I have heard although no longer available (at least to these specifications!). It now carries my unreserved recommendation among the S.O.T.A contenders.
I'll still try to keep abreast of other developments and hopefully be encouraged to try something else out at some date: probably in the far off, distant future. |
"What about the Audio Research REF PH2SE"- Mbovaird
INHO, this is indeed one of the great ones. Night and day difference from my previous best, the Aesthetix Rhea. |
I second that Jtsnead, I spent a lot of time with the owner and his phono pre at an audio show and it sounded very nice - simple, well built and not over engineered.
I have considered getting one but really do prefer tubes. |
I got the NVO PSA-One and couldn't be happier! Jeff Day has said it's the best he has ever heard in his own Blog and in his review of this unit in Positive Feedback. Try and have a listen yourself, there may be some very pricey used phono stages on Agon once heard! |
NVO also have the latest version of their (top of the line) SPA-II/2 ready. |
Rsf507,
Does your NVO use step up transformers?
What kind of gain does it have?
What phono stage did it replace for you?
Have you ever compared it with the Herron?
What cartridge are you using?
Sorry for the 20 questions! |
-No step-up transformers
-50/60 MM/MC roughly
-Parasound JC3 (really didn't like, noisy yes even though it was SS and very lean sounding..what was I thinking!!!!)
-No
-EMT
You have 15 more questions to reach your 20! |
Thanks for the info Rsf507. I'll have to give more thought to this so that I use my next 15 most wisely lol.
But seriously, something like this maybe right up my alley as my Benz Ruby ZH has .7 mV output and 80 ohms internal impedance and therefore not the best match with most step up transformers.
My curiosity has now been peaked! |
No_regrets there's a guy somewhere on these forums that had some very highly regarded phono units like the ypsilon and zanden and sold them for the NVO, do a search but it was a year or so ago. The importer will tell you of another guy who sells hi-end gear that had the ypsilon and also thought the NVO was better in most regards, not a small feat! |
It sounds like the NVO is a very impressive unit Rsf507. This phono stage will be high on my list. Thanks for mentioning it in this thread, or else I probably would have never known about it! |
The SPA-II/2 has been out for a while now and we are behind in orders.
(Dealer disclaimer) |
A very small company so it is not easy to become well known :-) |
I don't own one as I have a Strain Gauge, but by far the best phono stage I've heard by a big margin is the fairly recent RCM Theriaa. Little known outside Europe but amazingly good |
I really like the Simaudio 610 Evolution Series I just got that replaced my Zesto Andros. The 610 will be with me long term. |
Have you bought your ultimate phono stage, or are you still looking? I only ask this because there comes a time when you simply have to commit and buy. I heard the top of the range all KSL system where the speakers were wired with either KSL or Audio note cable - I recall that it had had rave reviews by Roy Gregory on HiFi plus - whose opinion was very relieable for about the first 4 - 5 years of the magazine. I absolutely hated the whole system - very syrupy sweet and soft. Likewise I heard the full Zanden sytem powering some Avalon Speakers (which I have heard in other systems) and again soft and lacking drive IMHO. At the other end of the spectrum there is the original Tom Evans Groove that I tested in my system a number of years ago, and I absolutely hated it. I spoke to Martin Collums once and he told me that this search for the single ultimate is difficult becassue we are sensitive to different aspects of sound - some are timing sensitive (like me) so infinite baffle speakers/electrostats for me -others are frequency sensitive so supertweeters for them...
As this is a forum you will and have received several opinions that are all valid, and help provide good suggestions.
For my part I was very impressed with the Whest Reference, whilst I do not dislike valves, with the exception of VTL's they always have a certain sound that adds a golden sheen to the sound which I find not to reflect real live sound.
I am told that the all time greatest solid state phono stage is the 'air dialectric' mares - which became the Connoisseur and is regrettably no longer manufactured - rare as hens teeth, but snap one up they are offered for sale - you won't lose a penny on re-sale |
You may wish to consider the Ayre P5xe-mp phono preamp with balanced in AND out as recommended by Ralph. Be sure to use it fully balanced. Keep in mind that Ayre could build a more expensive phono preamp if they thought a big improvement would be possible... But this is the one they use with their $10K+ table and best A/D to make high-res examples from LPs. |
I have been using Croft phono amps for years and have never really felt the need to move. Stock it uses JJ tubes which are a little slow and colored for my taste. Switching them out for Telefunkens brings serious improvements in speed, clarity, transparency and air. |
NVO SPA-II Special Edition |
Oldears, I also recommend tubes and passive EQ. Preamps with passive EQ often exhibit less surface noise from the LP, even though they might have the same bandwidth. |
I have yet to hear anything better than a Herron VTPH-2. Some come close, but "no cigar." |
AMR PH77 with Bendix Red Bank 6900 tubes in the output being powered (currently) with a PS Audio P600.., simply mind bending.
Honorable mention goes out to my former Graaf GM70 and believe it or not.., (I can just see the looks on peoples faces :).., the iFi iPhono when really run in and sitting on the right vibrational isolation can be stunning and I mean "keep up with my former Graaf GM70 (which had a $1K worth of Amperex/Mullard/Siemens tubes installed) stunning". The Graaf had more bloom as you would expect but as far as speed, clarity, weight and overall character they were basically tit-for-tat.
The PH77 is in another realm altogether. |
Naim Superline with Supercap psu. An end of the road phonostage for a very reasonable cost. |
Pani, what are the top 3 phono amps that you have used regardless of price? I think you are very experienced with many analog gear. Thanks |
