Has anyone listened to Van Den Hul The Grail SB phono preamp?
Any comparision with Conrad Johnson TEA-2? |
The one that blew me away and ended my search for phono stage nirvana was the fairly rare John Curl designed Vendetta. I've listened to more modern units but have yet ti find one I'd swap my SCP - 2T for.
Apparently he only made around 200 of them and if you ever see one, jump on it as you'll probably not get another chance. |
I have not enough experience to state which is the best phonostage, but I love my Klyne 6PE.
if you can suggest some model that can better it under 2k$ (used is ok), you are welcome.
I'm very curious about Herron and obviously Klyne series 7, but they are not imported in Italy where I live and it would be too expensive to buy them overseas and have it shipped here.
I'm curious about Parasound JC3+ too, but -though it is imported- it is quite difficult to find used (and new it is way too expensive to me).
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Back from a long hiatus,
Lewm, to answer your question:
Gain for the RCA outputs can be set to 60, 50 or 40dB. Gain will be 6dB higher in each setting if using the XLR outputs (66, 56, or 46dB). There is an input impedance switch tab of 47kohms on the back of the unit that may be switched up to 10R for a fixed low output MC cart setting.
Input capacitance for high-output MC and MM cartridges can be set to 100, 200, 300, 420, or 520 pF.
Input impedance (input capacitance is irrelevant for low-output MC cartridges) can be set manually from 10 - 1200 Ohms.
The Pro-ject really offers almost endless options.
My two cents; nothing under $1,000.00 beats the DV P-75 MKIII when used with ANY low output DV cart of your liking. They are simply a match made in heaven, especially in enhancer mode.
That said, I cannot think of any other Phono-Pre that would work better for both of my MM carts (Sure V15 Type IV/Jico SAS and AT-ML170/occ) than the Pro-ject Phono Box RS Phono Pre. |
Has anyone heard the Van Den Hul The Grail SB if so can you comment. |
What ever happened to Mr Pedrillo? He disappeared a number of years ago. |
The moving coil section in my Deja Vu preamp. Outstanding. |
I recently went from a BAT VK-P10 to an AMR (Abbington Music Research) PH-77 and have never experienced such a profound change going from one component to another.
I loved my P10 and still think it is a really good PS, but the PH-77 added a lot of bass (tight, fast bass) to my system, and more weight and authority without reducing details or the beautiful high end my system always had.
Having a 300B SET based system, bass has always been a little lean, but the PH-77 really remedied that. |
I will add Modwright Reference PH-150 to the discussion, I have owned several hi end phono's and this one is among the best. |
Oops---it should read "(from the highest-output moving-magnet and moving-iron types)", not moving-coil. |
Jwilsco---A more complete and detailed explanation is that sources other than a record player (turntable/tonearm/cartridge) have an output voltage of 1 to two volts, commonly. The non-phono inputs on a pre-amp/integrated amp/receiver provide about 15 to 20 dB of gain (to amplify that output from non-phono sources), to drive the power amp (or amp section of an integrated or receiver) to full output.
The output voltage from a phono cartridge is far lower than from other sources, ranging from 0.02 mV (from the lowest-output moving-coil cartridges) to about 5mV (from the highest-output moving-magnet and moving-coil types). To amplify that smaller signal to the same level as other inputs, the pre-amp must provide far higher gain (40 to 60dB, or even more). All of that gain requires the phono amplification be of very low noise, as any present will be amplified along with the signal. It's a demanding job!
In addition, the RIAA Tbg mentioned is part of the phono system (too technical to go into here), and is also accomplished in the phono amp. Phono stages used to be included in all pre-amps, but many pre-amps today are for non-phono sources only (that kind of pre-amp is called a line-stage), and stand-alone phono amps are common. Whether stand-alone or included in a full function pre-amp, integrated amp, or receiver, the phono amp/section does the same job. It's just a matter of getting a phono amp/stage that has the appropriate gain for your phono cartridge's requirements. |
Jwilsco, a two channel amplifier with RIAA equalization. |
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Like Michael Fremer, I think the B.M.C. MCCI is at least second best, with only the Ypsilon perhaps better. |
New TW Acustic the best i have ever heard. |
Kiko, Is it correct that the Pro-ject max input resistance is 1200 ohms? Yet in other respects it seems suitable for MM cartridges, as well as MC. Why does it not offer 47K ohms or the like? |
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The relatively new Pro-ject Phono Box RS Reference phono stage sounds pretty amazing for $999.00, especially if you are fortunate enough to buy a demo unit for $600.00 :-)
Capable to adapt to virtually any phono cartridge:
Variable input impedance loading (10 - 1200 ohms) adjustment, even while playing. Load capacity switchable (100pF 200pF, 300pF, 420pF, 520pF) Gain RCA: 40, 50, 60 dB XLR: 46, 56, 66 dB
It works extremely well with my 3 carts:
Everyday cart - Shure V15 type IV/Jico SAS
MM - AT ML170/occ
MC - 10X4 Gold LO/Soundsmith type II re-tip |
The best phono stage I have experienced is the built-in phono from Plinius M16P preamp.
Has somebody gathered all recommended phono stages and ranked them yet? I wonder whether MAGI Phonomenal phono stage was mentioned at all. I have not used it, but I am thinking of ordering one. What is good about is it has two MM phono inputs. I prefer two MMs rather than one for MM and one for MC since I would rather use an SUT for MC cartridges. I also have a separate tonearm/table for mono and MM cartridges, so multiple input is a must. |
The new TRON Convergence phone stage at USD 1.5k GBP 1k is unbelievably good at the money - nearly as good as my USD 7k (£4.5k) TRON Seven Reference. I heard one of the first production ones a month ago. Great sound quality with an ultra short signal path, choke regulated PS and great build quality. It's cheap, as Graham Tricker is selling it direct, making it amazing value. |
Sure takes ARC a LOT of tries to get it right. No offense Oregonpapa---I have a PH myself (not an 8, though). |
lovin' my Audio Research PH-8. Prior phono stages were ARC PH-5 and PH-7se. The PH-8 Makes the other's sound broken. |
Well, i'm not experienced with many phono stages, but for several years i use latest WLM PHONATA MC/MM with automatic impedance and two RIAA curves (one for vintage records and another for all others). The Phonata works very well between 25 till 100 ohm cartridges. For some very low impedance cartridges i use ZYX CPP-1 PRE-PRE AMP between the turntable and WLP PHONATA via MM. |
I just got a Whest PS30R phono stage I'd say it's up there with worlds best |
I just received a new Conrad Johnson TEA2 MAX last night. I have no idea how it stacks up with other top level phono stages, but I can tell you that it is the best one I have ever heard right out of the box. Wow! |
SDcampbell, I too just got the Parasound JC3+ and concur with you. A damn fine piece of kit. |
Hi Lohanimal: I have used various models of the SP10 family, and in stock form they grab my respect but not my heart. Taking the controller boards out of the chassis can help (although shielding the cables may be required, along with implementing measures to ensure stability), and a redesigned motor controller will help matters more. My own preferences for modern reincarnation would be turntables with motors of the slotless or coreless pursuasion, such as the JVC TT-101, Lo-D TU-1000, Onkyo PX-100M, Pioneer P3a, Sony TT-8000, Yamaha GT-2000 (among others).
Given the small size of today's analog market compared to what it was in the 1980s, production volumes of such a modern DD turntable would be small enough that tooling such as stamping, casting, molding, forging etc. may or may not justify the capital investments (which would be high). And if projected production volumes didn't justify tooling, every component would need to be made individually via machining, optical etching, laser-cutting, water-cutting and so on. This wouldn't be cheap. Coming up with an elegant design is one challenge, but engineering it for efficient production is a completely different challenge nearly as difficult as coming up with the design in the first place.
>I genuinely believe that when big companies really 'went for it' some astonishing products that whilst not cheap, were still good value for money.
If Toshiba or Hitachi were to assign the guys designing their air-conditioning or washing machine motors to engineer a DD turntable motor, most likely the results would be very, very good. There is an interesting Japanese webpage by a retired JVC engineer, in which he talks about his involvement in designing the motor drive and controller circuits for the slotless DD motor of Yamaha's GT-2000.
http://37282.diarynote.jp/200708032337340000/
http://37282.diarynote.jp/200708041621320000/
http://37282.diarynote.jp/200708102338400000/
http://37282.diarynote.jp/200708111505150000/
Little chance that a billion-dollar company with a dedicated motor engineering division would assign its ace engineers to design a turntable motor today, however. Panasonic's cessation of SL-1200 production is more or less proof that the turntable market is too small for a big, mass-production oriented company to be interested in.
There are some German companies (Brinkmann etc.) however, that have motors that can be used in DD turntables (I know not whether these motors were designed from the outset for DD use), and at least one of those companies offers such a motor as part of a DD turntable kit.
>BTW why oh why won't can't you get the Connoisseur made again?
Several different reasons. First is that ever-tightening ROHS regulations and increasingly severe business conditions for component manufacturers have forced all of the high-performance transistors used in the Connoisseur 4 & 5 out of production, and in most cases the production lines themselves are gone, sometimes the companies themselves. FWIW, the sound of most transistors available today is generally less than impressive, and any new design would be at a severe handicap unless modern transistors can be found which are comparable in performance and sound to the devices used inside the Connoisseur 4 & 5.
Second reason is that I am responsible for all of Lyra's engineering developments (schematics, simulations, circuit board layouts, mechanical designs, prototyping, testing), I come up with most of the strategic product planning, I do the box designs, I write most of the user's manual, and I keep an eye on production to make sure that any issues are either nipped before they happen or are taken care of promptly and thoroughly. Since I am not that good at juggling multiple projects at once, I always need to think carefully about where to most sensibly allocate my development efforts. More cartridge development means less time available to spend on the electronics, and focusing efforts on the electronic projects can mean no new cartridge designs for a time. Hard choices that can have long-lasting repercussions.
Third reason is that regarding the Connoisseur 4 and 5, I have already been there, done that, and wouldn't derive any personal satisfaction from a new project unless I could be reasonably confident that it could surpass my previous efforts. Transistors permitting, certainly a bit more performance could be squeezed out of the Connoisseur 4 & 5 formula, which is what the 4-2, 4-2SE and 4-3 have been about. But where is the challenge and personal satisfaction in merely refining an old formula?
OTOH, it takes serious mental effort to come up with a valid new engineering approach, and requires even more meticulous work and soul-searching to build up the confidence that the new approach will be able to surpass the old designs.
For a designer to be truly quality-oriented requires that he be his own worst enemy, and only release designs which surpass the performance of his previous efforts, preferably in as many ways as possible.
I have a few different design approaches for line preamp and phono stage in development, but whether anything will eventually be put into production or not depends on how happy my ears will be with those designs.
BTW, entering US patent number 4,512,008 into a search engine should allow you to download a pdf of the patent for Yamaha's MC phono stage.
kind regards, jonathan |
I recently upgraded to a Parasound JC3+, and I can report that it's an improvement over the JC3, and that it's a damned fine phono stage. I bought the JC3+ new from a dealer here on A-gon for almost 1/3 below the MSRP. If you are interested in this deal, drop me a private e-mail and I'll be glad to share the details. |
Hi Jonathon - that is just so funny I think. Another irony is that Harry Weisfield in an interview said that an SP10 would cost 30,000 USD in todays market. I genuinely believe that when big companies really 'went for it' some astonishing products that whilst not cheap, were still good value for money. I've written elsewhere that I have an EMT 950 that I am restoring, and I want to set aside some savings to do this at then end of next year - I hope it's brilliant - that said I like the fact that it has the phono boards fairly close to the arm output. BTW why oh why won't can't you get the Connoisseur made again? I may never be able to afford it, but it is one of the few high end products like the Sirius that were truly 'mount everest' products (a bit like the McLaren F1 car) and to know they exists is a good thing for me. |
Thanks Lohanimal, I've come across that same sentiment with the EAR 834P and I do like the "tubey" sound. I'll look into a demo. |
Hi Lohanimal:
The HA-2 in particular was highly sought-after by Japanese audiophiles, and widely praised for its sonic immediacy, as well as for its innovative approach. I never owned the HA-2 (couldn't afford it as a student), therefore I can neither confirm nor deny those views. I did own the HA-3, and once I corrected the RIAA equalization network, it sounded quite good.
I later exchanged the HA-3 together with an Audio-Technica AT-37 MC cartridge and Kenwood turntable (probably the KP-880D) in return for a studio-grade Denon open-reel deck, but a small part of me wishes that I had kept that HA-3. The circuitry knowledge that I have now would let me modify it into a much higher level than I could back in the mid-early 1980s.
Clearaudio's Absolute Phono page states that theirs is "the world's first active headshell moving coil phostage". If you forget about Yamaha and ignore the entire Japanese audio scene, they may be right (grin).
http://clearaudio.de/en/products/electronics-absolute_phono.php
kind regards, jonathan carr |
Hi EBuzz - I used to have an EAR 834P. I found it happened to have its own very distinctive musical signature. There are people out there that due to this 'musicality' they simply will not change from the EAR 834p regardless of costs. It is definitively 'tubey'. I haven't got, or heard an ALLNIC - but think about what you want from your phono amp first before buying - I myself preferred higher resolution and tighter bass - is there no way you can get a dealer to lend the Allnic to you |
Nice to know that the 70's into early 80's in the time of statement DD's from the big manufacturers still keeps beating so called new technology to the punch. Was the Yamaha any good? |
Everything that is old is new again, haven't seen the Yamaha's before. |
Would it be a mistake for me to sell my EAR 834P for the ALLNIC H1201? |
Hi Lohanimal: The old Yamaha HA-2 (1979) and HA-3 (1982) were also of this type.
http://jp.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/special/hifi-history/other/
The HA-2 shipped with a dedicated headshell with two embedded JFETs, thereby bringing the front end of the phono stage forward so that it was less than an inch away from the cartridge. No modifications to the tonearm were required; the tonearm wiring could be used as-is.
http://audio-heritage.jp/YAMAHA/etc/ha-3.html
The HA-3 exchanged the dedicated headshell for a compact encapsulated block that contained two JFETs, had 4 short leads coming in and four short leads going out, and was secured with double-sided adhesive tape. The user could thereby install the JFET block into his favorite tonearm or headshell. Again, no tonearm modifications were necessary.
http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~mai-k/analogue/transe1/yamaha.html
In more recent years, the prolific Japanese DIY amplifier designer Akihito Kaneta (Kaneda) has published at least one phono amplifier design which installs a JFET headamp inside the tonearm headshell.
kind regards, jonathan |
The new stage by Clearaudio may well be a game changer - amplification in the headshell before going down the arm - has anyone heard one yet? |
Ralph (Atmasphere) wrote:
>All preamps are class A.
For discrete circuits, this is true. OTOH, the vast majority of opamps only have a very small output range in which they run in class A. If the signal amplitude exceeds that range, the opamp's output circuits will shift to class AB operation. This is because opamp manufacturers place great emphasis on energy efficiency, and therefore internally bias their output stages in a manner that keeps the standing currents quite small.
That said, it is possible to keep many opamps in Class A operation over a larger range by connecting a current source (or even a well-chosen resistor) from the opamp output to one of the power rails (which rail works better depends on the design of the individual opamp). However, this "forced" Class A operation needs to be implemented by the preamp designer. I have seen many opamp-based preamp designs (and DACs) where Class A operation was not implemented.
kind regards, jonathan |
It's been some time,but I added a Lightspeed Attenuator and now run the Manley steelhead in fixed mode and just as a phono stage.
Much better, than running it in variable out into the amps.However doing so eliminates operating it in mono.
The phono stage really opens up and is cleaned up getting rid of the built in volume control.
It's a nice feature and I used it as a pre-amp also,but sonically the LSA is the way to go,even if I have to use a set of interconnects from the Manley to the LSA.
One other thing that I've found out about the Steelhead.
Run at 50 ohms for a Clearaudio Talisman v2,I get much better bass and sound than I did running the MC at the extreme other end the loading closest to Clearaudio specs.
I used to think that the often quoted 100 ohm was also better, but even lower really does the trick for me.
Truth told, Manley suggests you play around with the settings,nothing is written in stone.
Also, I did run the Clearaudio MC in the MM input,but prefer it in the MC loaded down to 50.
There's more full bodied sound this way, more to my liking, and no noise issues.
The Steelhead is a good phono/pre as is.
For me it's function is as a phono stage,and I think that's how it should be judged. |
All preamps are class A FWIW. |
My Audio Research SP20: $9000 is a full-function, line-plus-phono preamp. And offers a headphone outputthe new SP20 is a pure class A and sounds better than any phono preamp I have heard to date. |
Two words: Parasound JC3+. |
For anything under $5k, don't sneeze at an iFi iPhono. When properly run-in it sounds quite frankly unbelieveable (especially when cost is considered). Mike Fremer did not place this unit in his +$100K system with the MC Anna for nothing, he knows how good this piece sounds. I have it in my system now (along-side my PH77) with the Kuzma 4 Point and MC Anna. You would literally have to hear it to believe it. |
I have heard the Naim and it sounded pretty good (in a friend's system). My own preference is for tube electronics, but the Naim was decent sounding--dynamic and lively, and with just a little bit of the artificial "edge" to the initial attack of the note that makes solid state often sound mechanical and fake.
My issue with the Naim was that, in my friend's setup, it suffered from some kind of static electric buildup sensitivity that could not be cured by ANY change to the grounding of the unit, the table and the arm. When the air was dry, playing the unit for a while would, sometimes, lead to a loud pop and the unit would freeze up and have to be turned off for a minute or so before it could be re-booted. This was a big annoyance, and the pop had the potential to be speaker damaging but for the low power employed in this system. |
Why solid state? Do you live somewhere that vacuum doesn't work? Are you allergic to glass? Inquiring minds want to know. |
Hopefully I get to listen to a Naim Superline with Supercap soon too. I am looking for something solid state... |
The 47 labs phonocube was built around the Miyabi 47 cart. That combo is very good.
You may still not like the phonocube enough, thats a matter of choice.
Have you heard a Naim Superline with Supercap psu, connected via Naim Burndy cable ? |
For those interested in Tom Evans Mastergroove Beware. Malaysia long term distributor paid him in full for 2 units while it was still in development stage 2011/2012. However he took the money , developed it , built it for sales elsewhere & while telling the distributor its still in development stage . Subsequently Mehran got involved & a unit was despatched. Till today 1 unit is still outstanding . As for buying thru Mehran , I believe it's probably safe if u make some arrangement in advance . Reliable is everything when you are buying expensive gears |
Wow I've listened to the 47 labs phonocube and it wouldn't even make my top 25! IMHO |
Yes the ones I have listed are all very good and I could live with any of them as the last one but the superline just beats them all by a margin that just cannot be ignored. |
