the big companies have the budget to design better products, but to get dealers to carry them they need huge markups. Buying used is the only value, I’m enjoying a very expensive system I would only dream about owning and because many audiophiles get hooked on having the latest thing us little people can enjoy sota. Anybody believe a $25k speaker from 5 years ago is any less musical than a new $12k speaker today?
Speakers that are a great value!
I’ve been researching off the shelf speaker drivers quit a bit lately and smaller speaker companies as well. I’ve been finding that companies like Fritz, Salk and Tekton offer incredibly well priced products. I’m finding that with certain models, there really only appears to be small profit margin. I understand that when you buy large quantities of drivers, you can get a small discount but still.
For instance, I’m seeing speakers that sell for $2000 might have $700 worth of drivers in them. When you add in $100-$200 worth of crossovers, $100-$200 in cabinets, $50 for miscellaneous components like binding posts, damping material, wiring, solder or connectors you come up to around $1200 worth of raw components. Now add in labor to construct the boxes, possibly put veneer on them, solder and put together crossovers, install drivers and then ship the speakers, the value is really quite good. I haven’t even talked about obtaining the woodworking tools to do such a product, rent on a building, utilities on that building and the labor costs if you have any employees.
My point to all this is to open a discussion and to help people understand that there may only be a $400 profit margin on a $2000 pair of speakers. I think that these are an exceptional value at full asking price and that should be taken into consideration when thinking about buying speakers from these manufacturers.
I sometimes hear that these speakers are overpriced and that the value is not good and I would tend to strongly disagree!
For instance, I’m seeing speakers that sell for $2000 might have $700 worth of drivers in them. When you add in $100-$200 worth of crossovers, $100-$200 in cabinets, $50 for miscellaneous components like binding posts, damping material, wiring, solder or connectors you come up to around $1200 worth of raw components. Now add in labor to construct the boxes, possibly put veneer on them, solder and put together crossovers, install drivers and then ship the speakers, the value is really quite good. I haven’t even talked about obtaining the woodworking tools to do such a product, rent on a building, utilities on that building and the labor costs if you have any employees.
My point to all this is to open a discussion and to help people understand that there may only be a $400 profit margin on a $2000 pair of speakers. I think that these are an exceptional value at full asking price and that should be taken into consideration when thinking about buying speakers from these manufacturers.
I sometimes hear that these speakers are overpriced and that the value is not good and I would tend to strongly disagree!
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@twoleftears I took a look at the Bache website. Some nice options there. A bit hard to know if they're on the level. The contact page features text near their webform that is still in that place-holding latin that webforms use, and the map of where they are is in Russian/Cyrillic text. They have a heading that says "Where to Buy" and then list nothing. There are no policies about returns, shipping, etc. http://bacheaudio.com/contact-us/ |
The price we would pay for drivers, crossovers, etc is NOT the same price a manufacturer pays. They get high volume (pun) discount deals. To be profitable a direct sales business would have to have a 200% markup to stay in business. A company with a dealer network it would have to be much more than that. |
I am afraid you are misinformed. The dealer cost on high end audio speakers is 50% of retail. Parts are always priced individually at higher prices. For example, when a 1963 Bel Air 4 door sedan with a the options of a radio, carpets, 283 V-8, automatic transmission, and backup lights sold for $2995, as my Mom's did, the individual cost of parts was over $30,000, as calculated by the local dealer parts department. When you price an individual speaker driver, you are paying the highest cost per unit. On my pair of 1981 B&W DM14's a replacement woofer was $150 from B&W, or $600 for the four in a pair of speakers. It also has two very nice tweeters that were certainly not cheap for their day. I saw the invoice from B&W to the dealer, because my Saint Augustine neighbor was the rep who sold them to the stores. The store paid $500 plus $50 for "shipping", which was really the rep's 10% "commission". It has four plus a very nice wood cabinet, stands. a quite expensive crossover, and nice grills. Retail was $1000. When the dealer says he makes $400 on a set of $2000 speakers, he paid $1000 for them, but pays the salesman a commission (Often 20% of the profit, which is $200.), has building costs, utilities, insurance, taxes, etc, so he possibly does only personally pocket $400. |
It's easy to build and market a cheap speaker when all you're required to do is procure your drivers from another source, build an enclosure, fabricate a crossover, then brag about how much you're saving the end user by direct marketing. Reviews are a dime a dozen. I've encountered speakers that met with glowing accolades that sounded terrible. We all have. Pertinent questions, that have nothing to do with personal opinion would include who makes your drivers? How much of your budget is centered around research and development? What are your testing facilities? How long have you been in business? The ultimate cost of a speaker has much to do with these factors. Based upon similar information a general idea of expected performance can be determined before the speaker is even unboxed. Some of the companies mentioned here will likely be out of business before your speakers are broken in. Do the homework. |
When I got into this geeky hobby I built my first pair of quality speakers from a mail order (way pre-www), company Speakerlab (which apparently is still in business). 12" 3-way in a box I made from MDF sourced from the local lumber yard. Those carried me through HS and beyond, until I eventually bought some Polk 7's and a few others. FF to the early 2000's and I bought a 5.1 set of Tannoy Saturn 8's and PS350 sub. Now my 'reference' system is in my office with a set of ELAC UB5's, a Pro-ject S2 DAC, VPI Scoutmaster, and an old Denon 3802 receiver setup in 2.2 configuration. Point is that I've had Klipsch RP-500M's, Jamo Coronet IV's, Kef IQ10's, and the current choice the Elac Uni-fi UB5's, with the only constant being the dual 10" Klipsch RPW-10 subs, and they all sound good and all are really cheap. So regardless of what a mentally unbalanced troll says, it's obvious they've all been tuned by their designers. Hard to go wrong with an Andrew Jones product. |
@kink56, the discount on buying 100 Beryllium tweeters vs 1 beryllium tweeter is actually less than you would think. Take into account the amount of capitol it takes to buy 100 beryllium tweeters! @zerobias , lsim703 definitely deserve to be on this list! They are great speakers at a great price 👍 @banyanbull , if it were easy, everyone would be doing it. No one, aside from the CEO of Bose or Harman International, is becoming rich of this. Many of these smaller, buyer direct companies, have been at this for a long time and aren’t going anywhere. They are hard working individuals and usually do it for the love as much as the $. Fritz sold his first pair of speakers out of his van in 1973. Salk has been at it for 20 years. Tekton was a company that was building great value speakers over 10 years ago. I’m not so sure you’ve done your homework! Either that or your speakers just take a really long time to break in! |
@hilde45 At CAF I met the owner/designer, talked with him at length about the special drivers that he was using, and heard the demo speakers. They were very impressive. Search the forum and you'll find a bunch of threads with satisfied Bache owners. For a while he was putting pairs on the 'gon. Don't know how lockdown has affected him. Evidently, proximity to Brooklyn and ability to audition in person is preferable. |
Since you are on a budget (as are we all to some degree) I would suggest you narrow your speaker options down to high efficiency speakers, ie 95db or more. The reason being that you can cut costs by buying a lower power or perhaps integrated tube amplifier, of which there are many fine products for low $$, and spend more of the speaker itself. The most important component to your high end sound system is the speaker so this is where you want to concentrate most of your cash outlay. I agree with some of the other posters that the Maggies are a great value but you need brutal amounts of power to make them sing and lower efficiency speakers seem to require better and more expensive cabling. That would be my approach. |
With a background ( also ) in sales management, whatever we are talking, value, is based on what someone is willing to pay. We all have our preferences, as obvious from our posts, but, what I consider a value, someone else might not, and vice versa. This can be at any price point, on any item purchased. I, as an example, do not feel $5..is a value for a cup of coffee from, well, you know. I make just as good a cup of coffee at home. Enjoy !, and be well, all. |
This is an audiophile community so I doubt the likes of Edifier S3000 Pro or LS50 Wireless will get much love, but these are absolutely stunning speakers with the right digital source. I'm on Mac Mini with an RME ADI-2 interface. Both speakers shine. Far more expensive equipment with cables and amps and pre-amps and DACs and whatnot doesn't manage to sound as natural and clear as the above two. |
@juliepriest, nonsense! LS50W’s are a fantastic bargain. I talked my brother and 3 different friends into buying them. I bought a pair as well. The edifiers I hear are fantastic too. The LS50W’s made me sell passive LS50’s and all my associated gear. I was going to go that route but I enjoy geeking out on each individual piece and look at the whole thing as a hobby, otherwise I’d have active speakers. One day when all I want to do is enjoy the music and have a simple set-up, I’ll go that route again. @Aj523, I am not familiar with Seaton! I will look at the’. Thanks for the addition to the list! |
I've been appreciating the Tekton DI's for a while, and wondering lately about the next step. These speakers have raised the minimum requirements (for me) when looking toward future purchases: - Linearity: +-1dB 70Hz - 20kHz - Freq.Response: +-3dB 20Hz - 30kHz - Efficiency: 99dB (1w1m) Many speaker recommendations in this thread, what is the next step up that provides these minimum requirements outside of another Tekton? |
There are speakers that in the way they are constructed and priced represent an intrinsically good value, and then there are speakers being offers in crazy deals that end up representing good value. Occasionally, the two coincide. https://www.musicdirect.com/speakers/wharfedale-denton-80th-anniversary-bookshelf-speakers-pr |
Hi kenjit, Any drama needs a great antagonist. Your inimitable style has certainly injected controversy and drama into many speaker threads. I must say that your current comments regarding fine tuning being central to a speaker that sounds right is right. IMO, a great speaker needs a brilliant designer to “cook” all ingredients together to make a speaker to sound just right. Drivers, enclosures, crossovers and the “special sauce” to produce a great speaker. But as in food, some love the taste of some and some do not. And all those objective measurements have little or nothing to do with the subjective feelings of what sounds more “right”. |
Steve59 I am interested in purchasing the Von Schweikert VR9 MKII at $35,000 which retailed for about $100,000 versus the new Ultra 55 at the same current price. The former is easy to drive with 100 watts or less (95 db efficiency) versus the new speaker which needs double that (88 db efficiency). the VR9 has incredible adjustability to any room (despite my room's superior acoustics) while the Ultra 55 has the latest VS technology and parts/wiring. So, I will probably continue to purchase used speakers that are "last year's model" than new models. While the Tektons are a great deal, they are better voiced for single seat listening. The VRs are voiced for 4 or 5 great sounding seats in the room. |