Your ’involving’ quote is subjective not objective. That is why I say it takes both listening and measurements. What you say still does not take away from what I said.
I have heard the Reynaud's and thought eww - what not my cup of tea. Just me and what I said about them is very subjective. Not everyone likes the same thing. That is why there are different speaker manufacturers. You like them great - enjoy that is all that matters. It is all about the music anyway, not equipment to me.
People seem to think their way is always right. For them yes, for others no. The old saying, 'there is more than one way to skin a cat' is truer than ever.
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@botrytis Measurements are not necessarily valid either. I had a pair of Kef LS50 meta for about a year. This is an ASR favorite. I found it uninvolving. Neutral but boring. Poor Soundstage. Poor imaging. Etc. I got a set of Jean Marie Reynaud Bliss Silvers. Panned by ASR. Initially I detected some mild irregularities in the upper mids. I got used to them. But the Soundstage is broader, more dimensional, and imaging is far more precise. And I found the rhythmic aspects far more appealing. They grab me every time. ASRs Measurements paradigm was not helpful or accurate. I have had the JM Reynauds for about six months now. I added an Audio Resear VT60 to the system. Even better.
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@goose Ears can lie. I mean the number one hallucination is hearing.
Measurements can help with expectation bias.
At Axpona, this year, so many speakers were so bright - I realize it is also the environment, but it was telling how many speakers lift in the treble range.
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The only valid measurement tool is you ears.
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Toro3, I have always had very positive interactions with the knowledgeable people at ASR and never experienced condescension. Sometimes they do get impatient with those whose attitude is “Don’t confuse me with the facts, I know I’m right.” If you look around you will see people who are absolutely enraged at Amir. I bought a Topping DX 7 pro a while back on his recommendation and love if as much as my RME. On the other hand, I have enjoyed Rogue tube components he would probably dislike. In the end one has to agree with the concept “To each his own”, but I remain very grateful to ASR for sharing their perspective and greatly enjoy the site and its many knowledgeable adherents.
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great post read! Thanks...
+1
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I indicated in my one post on this thread that I was done here. I do have a few things to add. I currently am down to 24 power amplifiers (from a collection of about 100). 2 of these 24 (not my particular samples), have measured poorly and have been scrutinized over at ASR. Listening to, and through these 2, I greatly enjoy what these amplifiers bring to the table. There is not a single amplifier out there that would have a problem powering my speakers. Each of my many amplifiers, all showcase ( 1 ) a different tone, ( 2 ) a different 3D soundstage, ( 3 ) a different rhythm ( prat ), ( 4 ) a different dynamic, ( 5 ) a different ability to control the 15s in the doghouses, which includes extension, sustain, under or over damping, etc., ( 6 ) playing loudly...1 of my amps can easily clip ( a highly modified Citation 12, operating at 1wpc in Class A ). Some are airier, some are more immediate, and on and on and on. In common...they are all amazingly quiet, through the speakers...black background. I have my handful of favorites (most listened to) out of the 24, and the 2 over at ASR are in this group. So, are measurements important? I definitely think so. Am I listening to distortion? Obviously, I am. What is the outcome of this, as some have stated above, including me in my 1st post). I cannot rely on measurements, when it comes to my music system. I know this thread was started about speaker measurements, but it is what it is. It is a common thing, that communication on threads, easily takes us off course. Another thing. At 70 years old, with much experience in / with the audio field, and a lover of the music, 1st, and the gear, 2nd, I am disgusted by the amount, and increase of the hostility between members and posters. And it is getting worse, by the minute. When I started out, it was fun, fun, fun. When I listen to my system, it is fun, fun, fun. I believe wholeheartedly in modifications, and have been doing them since I was 13 years old. I remember because it was the year of my bat mitzvah, and I was running a pair of vertical Cornwall, while my dad was running a pair of AR3a. We enjoyed both systems, btw. Last thing. Besides Amir, STOP getting down on RICEVS. The man knows what he is talking about. EVERYTHING MATTERS. He shares his knowledge on here, without charging a dime, and if you do not believe in his findings....just leave it alone. The negativity here, really requires a thick skin. With a pursuit to " perfect sound " (stop deluding yourselves folks), let’s all make an effort to calm things down, and enjoy the comradery....to a passion we all have. I guess I am done now. My best, MrD.
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Agree with most you say @rtorchia. I haven’t seen too many “subjectivist whose favorite components get a negative review on ASR review become angry” across the various audio forums I frequent. By no means is this absolute as I’m sure this happens, but this didn’t happen in this thread when Amir contributed with his condescending and authoritative tone regarding his views between a Topping D90 and a Denafrips Terminator:
If in all of those 40 years, you had spent just one day doing a listening test blind, you would have been so much better off from that moment on. But no, you allowed your eyes and brain to interfere. And with it, arrived at the wrong conclusion, leading to wasting money left and right on things like that Denafrips DAC.
Many of us aren’t arguing the measurements. I’m arguing that Amir and ASR have a toxic culture that permeates other audio forums with condescending tones that have been normalized and promoted at ASR.
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I’m a great admirer of Amir and the work that he does at ASR. Even if one is a subjectivist and judges everything based on their hearing alone, it’s still interesting to hear how the scientific measurements compare. It strikes me as odd that subjectivists whose favorite components get a negative ASR review become angry. They enjoy what they are listening to so why care? I have Larsen 6.2 speakers that Amir would most likely pan, but I would still appreciate hearing his opinion. I’m also very distrustful of anyone who tells me that human sensory perception is the ultimate source of knowledge (opinion, perhaps) but that is a purely philosophical issue.
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Unfortunately the Human is only coming to terms as a modern population that they are not in control and all influences on the individual are not from their choices.
There is much much more, and survival / self preservation is one, where attractive Stimulus is the reward for putting oneself in an environment the Mind interprets as secure and safe.
Ambient noise/sound are indicators to the Brain and effects the chemistry that follows. All 10K - 12K chemical reactions per second.
This is not a bitter pill to swallow, it is quite liberating when willingness to accept develops.
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Yes acoustics are obviously important but this thread is not about acoustics.
For the record here are the things one has control over that I think matter most for good sound.
1. Good quality well engineered gear designed to work well together from source to speakers. Good quality implies gear has a good handle on distortion. Many speakers will qualify here. You choose.
2. Amplification that can get the most out of the speakers.
3. Room acoustics. You can do some treatments to help. Then after that smart application of DSP can help adjust for the rest, tailor the sound to personal preferences as needed, and help one get off the merry go round of changing gear.
4. Choose your tweaks from there.
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mapman you cannot understand something if you dont read about it and study few minutes.. i posted many articles above ...😊
Amygdala dont explain acoustics...
my Amygdala dont explain my books choices or my musical preference nor what i detect in sound speech no more that the way i appreciate a good system in a good room .
A word as amygdala explain nothing ... It is not false using it as i remark above , it is true it play a central role in our memory and emotion controls but this cannot explain sound qualities perceptive evaluation by itself alone ...
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In general some forms of distortion are more undesirable than others. I suppose the Amygdala has something to do with that. It’s good to understand why and how we respond the way we do (each differently to some extent). So it’s true there is more to what appeals to us in sound than low distortion, but that does not change the fact that distortion exists and it’s also a good thing to understand that as well in each case. Distortion does matter. There are several pieces to every puzzle.
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Between the amygdala and the ears canal and the brain/body processing of sound there is a world of processing...😊
Psychoacoustics explain it...
Read the many articles in my post above...
The reaction of a chalk board scratch is instinctive because there is no interesting and pleasing information to retrieve in it...
This does not means that all our reactions to a piece of gear will result from the subjectivity programmed history associated with our amigdala... The reason why sound please us is because sound convey meanings our brain/body recognize and create .
Tio explain how sound convey meanings we must study first psychoacoustics not study first amygdala reactive history ...
then you are right here :
Sound is very much part of the environment, and by being perceived in the local environment, becomes a factor in the effect had on the Amygdala, hence the individual exposed to the sound will have a reaction to it.
This reaction you spoke about is most of the times a TRAINED reaction because all sounds convey qualitative meanings.. (qualia)
But this does not prove that our sound reaction is motivated first and last by our amygdala alone, it is motivated by our ears/brain/body information retrieval skills acquired in our evolutive social history with speech and music and natural sounds interaction .
then what you say here is not even wrong but beside the main problem of sound meanings and recognition and appreciation :
Sounds effect on the Amygdala, is the dictator of whether the individual will receive stimulation to remain or remove themselves from the experience they are exposed to.
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I have stated in other threads and will once more state it in this thread, that there is too much focus on one element of why audio has an attraction.
As sound is the important end product, as a result of the math produced to manage electronic signal transfer.
Analysis of the math, which is a substantial proportion of the reviews being produced on asr and now the methodologies used by the controllers of the asr site being analytically discussed in this thread.
There is a more valuable approach which could be referred to as Holistic, but there is certainly the Chemistry of the Brain to be considered.
As difficult as it may be take on board, there are other factors at play that encourages an individual to bond/wedded to a particular sound, oor find a place where they feel most satisfied.
The Human Brain has the Amygdala at the frontal section of the Limbic System. The Amygdala is the receiver of what is present in the environment, through the Bodies Sensory Receptors creating the Bodies response to the environment.
Each individual is totally unique in their reaction to environment and the Amygdala is the first section of the Brain to process the Sensory Information, with immediate creation of a chemical signal within the Brain. It is this chemistry that is the fundamental influence on producing an individual to be unique in their reaction. It is a survival trigger and not able to be controlled prior to the chemistry being triggered.
It is claimed the info passing through the Brain forming chemistry travels at 260mph and the chemical changes in the Brain occur approx' 10K- 12k per second. Quarter of the Bodies Oxygen intake fuels this vital activity for Life and Survival.
Sound is very much part of the environment, and by being perceived in the local environment, becomes a factor in the effect had on the Amygdala, hence the individual exposed to the sound will have a reaction to it.
Sounds effect on the Amygdala, is the dictator of whether the individual will receive stimulation to remain or remove themselves from the experience they are exposed to.
No one has a influence over the initial stimulus created from the Amygdala function, even though one can rationalise, if not feeling fearful as a result of the stimulus, but discomfort is also a likely feeling created.
In many many cases an individual exposed to a screech on a Chalkboard will Cup a Hand over a ear, this is not a choice made but a reaction to a stimulus. Each Individual will not have a reaction that measures to the same time taken to react, there will be variation.
The sound from the Chalkboard and Sound produced as a result of an Audio System are no different, both are encountered in the local environment. The repelling of the sound, is not a choice but a reaction to stimulus created following the exposure of the sound to the Amygdala.
The same can be said for the acceptance and willingness to expose oneself to enduring the Sound being encountered, it s not by choice.
Beat me Up, all you like about this not so usual description, but it is with a large proportion of being accurate.
How many have bought devices to produce sound, inclusive of myself, resulting from an influence on their eyes and intellect only. To be met with repelling the devoice with the influence of being exposed to the sound produced becoming part of the experience. I have a few of these behind myself.
Was that a choice made or a reaction to the environment controlled by the Amygdala?
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I have owned a pair of Tekton Double Impact speakers for 2 years now. (Rock and Roll only) I researched and decided I would try them. There were many view points that I had read that were not favorable about Tekton, but, based upon my interactions with Eric himself on several occasions, I decided to give them a shot. Note, customer service is everything to me. He was always friendly and helpful, and never appeared to be short with me, no matter how many stupid questions I had! Note: W/O going into my entire system, which happens to be quite nice IMO, AMP is Pass x250.8 / usually listened to in class A. He always kept in contact until they were received, and verified accepted and OK. I appreciated the hand holding, my first relatively expensive speakers. To jump ahead, They are scheduled to arrive Tuesday, 4/23/24 via TForce freight, a brand new ( Expensive ) for me, a pair of Tekton Encores (special Edition) regarded as Faital Pro 12" ( 3rd pair made and shipped Ser# 5&6) the earlier pair made was destroyed while shipping to Fed Ex depot near me. Eric and his staff made every effort to keep me posted with the news. Less than a month later a special NEW pair were made and shipped, Again customer service was THERE!! I cant wait to receive and hear them. I will post after some burn in. All these comments are based on actual conversations and events. Until something changes, all I can say is that I am quite impressed as to how I have been treated. Robert Shaw TN
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There is actually a revolution in acoustics, where it is demonstrated that there is physical invariant perceived by ears/brain/body and selected by pitch and tone filtering, informing us of the vibrating sound source qualities... Sound qualities are transmitted by waves but are not waves themselves.Sound qualities are directly perceived meanings through waves but not reducible to waves.There is always a physical invariant behind the perception of sound,a vibrating sound source empty or full, wood or metal, with or without this or that qualities etc
These facts confirmed the ecological hearing perception theory i used when debating Amir about sound perceptions superstitious use of tools . The Fourier maps are not identical with the hearing territory ...They are maps not the territory...
https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html
These two studies confirmed my point against him ...These studies invalidate Pythagorician theory non ecological theory about hearing ...
https://neurosciencenews.com/music-body-emotion-25664/
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2308859121
https://phys.org/news/2024-02-pythagoras-wrong-universal-musical-harmonies.html
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267327268_The_Body-Image_Theory_of_Sound_An_Ecological_Approach_to_Speech_and_Music
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45812-z
Amir did not understood my points at all at this time ... No scientific studies can debunk ideological propagandist...he will not understood them today it will debunk his business.. 😁 Searching for truth is not the same that building a cult or an audiophile site around ourself...So useful it could be... 😊
😊
The Revel dealer’s forum had fallen off my radar (when I got the useless gist of it), until a couple of guys on my listserv mentioned they had been banned for politely disagreeing on some measurement crap, like what is audible or not...In other words, his clan is suppressing anything that deviates from the caricature he paints, in the name of ’science’. But, here he is.
There are specific religions, where the land is no longer secular by law, if members of that specific religion become a majority. The lands where other religions are a majority seem to remain secular by law. You go to that intolerant land and you will have no rights, if you belong to any minority religion. But, when these intolerant fanatics come over to other secular lands (in search of fortunes or whatever), they are real Fin happy with the tolerance, secular laws and the ability to have all their rights (be themselves, speak their minds).
Draw parallels as you wish between the fanatic forum and the rest of em ...
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+1. Amir for not threatening legal action against naysayers.
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Perhaps thin skin helps account for golden ears? More good vibrations? Everything matters so that must include skin thickness. Makes sense.
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ASR is a waste of time for me. Everytime I click on an ASR link I end up regretting it.
Then to have their cult leader show up here ... let’s just say that anyone who posts 7X in a row needs medication.
How do I know? As a great comedian said, "I thought it, then I wrote it."
(cogito ergo sum)
@desktopguy
The Revel dealer’s forum had fallen off my radar (when I got the useless gist of it), until a couple of guys on my listserv mentioned they had been banned for politely disagreeing on some measurement crap, like what is audible or not...In other words, his clan is suppressing anything that deviates from the caricature he paints, in the name of ’science’. But, here he is.
There are specific religions, where the land is no longer secular by law, if members of that specific religion become a majority. The lands where other religions are a majority seem to remain secular by law. You go to that intolerant land and you will have no rights, if you belong to any minority religion. But, when these intolerant fanatics come over to other secular lands (in search of fortunes or whatever), they are real Fin happy with the tolerance, secular laws and the ability to have all their rights (be themselves, speak their minds).
Draw parallels as you wish between the fanatic forum and the rest of em ...
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Measurements are extremely important, without the equations made prior to the measuring process, there would not be much on offer as a Audio Equipment.
The user of Audio Equipment are in general uninterested in the equations and the measurements that follow.
Their Trust is in the designs on offer to satisfy their needs as a Listener to a produced sound.
In relation to a Speaker, is not the owner of the Speaker at any price point keen to know the Watts (Power Handling), dB (Efficiency), Ohms (Impedance), Hz (Frequency Response).
These are the measurements available for most speakers on offer, are there many Speaker owners who extend beyond wanting to witness a Speaker of Interest be analysed for its measurements, or is the next stage the want to experience the Speaker in the Flesh for it s aesthetic and sound produced.
For most the Speaker once recognised for meeting a certain criteria, to match a Amplifier, the next stage is the impression the Speaker is able to have on them.
Analytical measurements are not really going to supply information to the general speaker owner and listener of produced sound, that shows where the Speaker is possibly being stretched as a tool. Well Seasoned listeners with a broad experience may have more confidence in matching the analysis to the performance of the speaker.
Across the last few years, I have been able to listen to a range of ESL and Cabinet and OB Speakers from Vintage Design to modern designs in new to myself systems and systems very familiar to myself.
My ear still is very endeared to a sound produced from a Vintage Design, but the impression left by a few modern designs, especially Cabinet Designs has forced myself to have a complete rethink on where the Speaker is to go in my system in the future, until recently I thought the OB was to be the successor to the Vintage design Speakers in use, Cabinet Type Speakers are Speakers of Interest as well now.
These changes in direction are solely supported by the impression formed as a result of the listening experience, not a measurement of a Cabinet Type Speaker has been known to me prior to having the experience.
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I may need to clarify something. When I say that the Klippel results are quasi-anechoic I’m not arguing that "quasi-anechoic" is bad, but that by definition it means measurements with anything other than an anechoic space.
I made the mistake ot descrbing a specific quasi-anechoic measurement technique, and it may seem I’m saying that quasi anechoic is 1 specific process. It isn’t. It’s an adjective. It classifies measurements broadly into 2 categories: anechoic or not based on the measurement methods. Regardless of the post processing methods, Klippel or otherwise, unless the measurements were donoe in an anechoic space they must then be "quasi-anechoic." if they attempt to replicate an anechoic measurement.
The Klippel system may in fact be the best we can do today. It may be the best ever. There may never be anything better. It’s still going to be quasi-anechoic in my mind. Always and forever.
I never said ground plane measurements were perfect, but that they could be used for an anechoic measurement below 80 Hz, so why bother to argue that they have issues as well? I don’t care. They are still anechoic while Klippel is not. If this winds you up in a knot, I’m sorry. Have a cookie. If you think "anechoic" is better than "quasi-anechoic" that’s on you, not me. You clearly have a branding problem you want to argue. If your entire web presence now hangs on the perceived value of the brand Klippel, that’s not my concern either. Klippel doesn't care what I think of it and vice-versa.
So if you want to argue that there are pros and cons of any kind of measurement, sure, go ahead, but please don’t expect me to engage in arguments I didn’t make.
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Audio products are sold with puffery because...sales. Or they are sold with measurements because...sales. Music is emotional. Gear is beautiful and represents many different things to different people. If the product isn't moved, the industry dies.
@ricevs Naive
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Amir Derangement Syndrome.
Seems to be a popular business model these days. But I do believe he is sincere. As is the EARmir side. (why is ear always capped?) Btw we listen with our brains. Neurons firing stimulating memories, emotions, current...past. Not to mention new pathways always in play.
As to all cables sound different that is a stretch. Maybe in an Uber expensive system or some amazing ears, but having a hard time with that objective/subjective statement.
One more observation. Have their ever been products sold with excessive puffery with no attempt at real improvement of sound? All manufacturers are pure in heart and excellent marketing is all in all. There has to be a line, amorphous yes, but there has to be some threshold besides my ears told you so.
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I think you are giving him to much power. Most people see through their game and I doubt that he has put anyone out of business. Hopefully we learn not to repeat bad behavior or thinking. If we resist him seriously then he gets stronger. For whatever you resist.....persists. We are the creators here. If we want to create a loving and intelligent world then we need to act loving and intelligent. Making him an enemy or putting him down is not intelligent. Whatever you put you mind on.....you become. Allow him to be just he way he is. He is beautiful and in time he will realize this more and more. This is of course true for all of us. Concentrate on the positive. Be happy. Be of service to everyone.......just don’t give energy/attention to those that are not in the greatest service. Don’t be a fighter/critic.....be a beacon of light. Just state your truth and let it go. We are all bozos on the bus. We are all learning. Let him have his playground......and let us play in our own playground.......one that is filled with infinite possibilities.
BTW, basic speaker measurements are super important. If you do not have a calibrated mic and some good software......HUH?.....why not? (very inexpensive). Speaker frequency response measurements in your room are highly informative. Especially direct sound readings. Having super off axis response is great for group listening or listening on the side of the room.......but in the hot seat (which always sounds the best even with a super great dispersion speaker)...what you hear is mostly what the mic says. If you stand up and don’t like the sound.....but never listen that way.....they why would you care. If you want sound that is great from all points in the room (standing, sitting. way off to the side) then you need a super dispersion speaker. Me, I sit in one spot.....that is where I measure. And when I measure reasonably flat response......that is how it sounds.
Most all preamps, DACs and amps measure flat frequency response......so their measurements mean very little. When Danny Richie gets in a speaker to mod the first thing he does in measure the frequency response......then he tweaks it. It is incredible how many speakers he gets in that do not measure well and his fixes are very, very simple. Almost anyone can do what Danny does. You measure and you get one of the free xover programs out there and go to town.......the program does most the the work by telling you what values to use and how to make it flat. You then put the components in and re-measure and fine tune. This is not rocket science......There is no reason a manufacturer should make a speaker that has crazy bad response......no reason. Does not need to happen in todays world.....Crossover design is mostly a science......of course, the parts you use and the execution all change the sound......but flat frequency response is easy as pie in todays world
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I think it is pretty predictable that the invective that springs forth from the ASR community/cult, has spread as negativity always does. And it all comes from Amir. He is the leader and he justifies it. Just look at his image on the ASR site. A Geisha with a sneer. His intent is pretty clear with that alone. And his followers are not reasonable. They are aggressive to the extreme. That's the product of his leadership.
This one sided reliance on measurement and the tendency to use those judgements to harm businesses by crying foul or fraud. I have to wonder how many honest audio entrepreneurs his group has damaged. It has to be extremely difficult to eke out success in this hobby. Not every product will shine brightest, but there has always been many paths to audio bliss. In this way, ASR has hurt all audiophiles. Because in the end, many of those paths will be lost forever.
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The fundamental problem with ASR and the like is that they believe everything that is meaningful regarding sound reproduction can be measured. In fact, the opposite is mostly true. Most things that can be heard to sound different (and judged to be better by everyone in the room) CANNOT be measured. Here is a list of things that cannot be measured;
1. Wire......all brands and types and whether is is cryoed and which direction you use it in......all SOUND different. Thousands of posts worldwide attesting to this.
2. Resistors.......all brands of resistors and types all sound different....even if they are the same inductance and general material. For instance, I ABed four different tiny surface mount resistors that were using the same material and all were the same size......all sounded different from each other.
3. Capacitors......right now a lot of people all over the world are upgrading their caps in their preamp, amp and speakers. Tons of posts about this all over the net.
4. Connectors.....yes, they all sound different. The guy at Qualio audio stated that the WBT nextgens were the ones for his speakers.
5. Solder......yes, all brands of solder sound different. I did straight wire bypass tests on 5 different types of solder in the early 80s. The reference was 5 inch pieces of wire and then we would solder 5 solder joints onto another piece of the same wire and A/B with the wire without solder joints.....none of the brands of solder passed the test. We chose this custom silver solder as the best and ordered a bunch but 6 months later that latest Wonder Solder was better.....
6. All cables sound different.....interconnect, digital cables, HDMI cables, ethernet cables, power cables, and speaker cables......the best connector is NONE....hard wire whenever possible.
7. Footers and stands all sound different.
8. Getting cables off the floor improves sound.
9. infinity.....everything sounds different.....he he.
Practically nothing above can be measured.....but it all CAN be heard. The die hard believers in the opposite of what I just stated will never listen to find out whether what I just stated is true or not. Here is a story that illustrates this:
3 buddies were invited over to someones house who owned modified Soundlabs speaker and a super front end. One of the 3 was someone who believed that amps sound different but not interconnects......he brough his new buddy who was new to audio and had told this newby about his point of view about wire. One of the other guys brought this cable (remember the peanut butter and jelly cable by Kimber?) to A/B with my friends super litz cable that he got the idea of in a dream. When they went to A/B the cables the non believer went into the kitchen so he would not have to be in the room. Of course, he could hear the sound from the kitchen and hear their commentary. All three in the room heard the same differences (quite marked). After they were done the non believer pulled his head our the the sand and rejoined them. They did even bother trying to talk to him about what they heard for they knew he was stubborn. If he would have stayed in the room and heard the difference he would have been WRONG for all those years. And if he stayed and then stated that they both sounded the same then he would have been given the stare by them......meaning...Are you deaf? They would never trust what he says again. Of course, the ego cannot handle those two scenarios......so best just to avoid listening.
This is what is going on in the objectivist camp.....they just keep stating the same things over and over and then go onto forums where 90% believe otherwise and point fingrers. Of course, they kick off their forum anyone who looks like the enemy.....they kicked me off. Once they saw that I sell and promote things that cannot be measured they started calling me a thief and con man........and we don’t want thiefs and conmen on our forum now, do we. They claim that I pray on the gullible.......what a laugh. I sell my inexpensive tweaks with a 30 day money back quarantee and everyone likes them......must be a lot of fools out there.....I mean, you cannot trust your own hearing. Who is more gullible? The people that try things in their own homes and decide for themselves or a bunch of followers of a cult that professes to have all the answers?
It certainly is simpler and cheaper to be an objectivist.....heck you just need any old source, a $700 preamp....a $700 DAC a $1000 amp, $1 a foot cables and whatever cheap speakers that measure flat and can handle power and you are good to go. If the latest DAC measures slightly better then you could or could not "upgrade".....since there really is no upgrading because what you have now is perfect. Yes, indeed a gullible illusion. REAL SCIENTISTS actually try things. The best INSTRUMENT for measuring sound reality is your EARS. However, you must have your heart and mind open to begin down the road of true knowledge.....If you live in your righteous ego based mind....you will never know the truth.
What I just stated is not going to convince anyone to shift their position. As long as the ego remains the supreme ruler we will never agree......the ego likes separation and fighting. The heart loves unity and oneness. I love everyone.....no matter what your silly mind thinks......and I know your soul.....in every one of you....loves me. Kisses and Hugs for everyone......forever. You are all infinitly beautfful.
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I’m not arguing this at all. I’m just saying that, by definition, it’s quasi. :) The results may be better than anechoic, but the measurements are considered quasi. We are estimating an anechoic response even though the measurements themselves were not done in an anechoic environment.
Nope. There is no "estimation" going on. Klippel NFS makes dual scans separated by fixed distance. This allows it to then detect the direct sound vs reflected sound due to phase differential. The reflections are then filtered computationally. This is what makes it superior to anechoic chambers which lose that characteristics at lower frequencies. There is nothing "pseudo" about that.
Gated measurements are called "pseudo" because they lack low frequency resolution. That makes them an estimate that is good at mid to high frequencies but not bass. Klippel NFS solves this problem (and with higher SNR to boot).
"Fortunately for low frequencies we have ground plane measurements, which I believe are actually anechoic... but I’ll leave that to the scientists to debate. :-)"
Ground plane measurements have sources of error. And require stitching to the gated measurements which again, can introduce errors.
To be sure, you can get really good results with ground plane+gated measurements but it is very tedious. See this post from our resident expert in that field:
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@amir_asr I see you've been a member here for a couple years. I would be very interested in seeing your home system. Please take some time to post pictures and a list of equipment in the virtual system section of the site. I have asked all members to post their system in the past. I think we all enjoy seeing and learning from how other members have set up a system. IMHO. Cheers.
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8th-note; I really like your response here. And Mapman you make some great points also. I think when we see speaker auditions we all take it with a grain of salt when it comes to a reviewer stating their listening experience. But even the best review magazines put their products on the pedestal under some type of measurement. As all these posts have proven people come into this subject with their own predispositions -- like MOST of these posts. I can't afford the high end gear and when I wanted a new DAC I did a ton of research -- and Amir's analysis of a Gustard X16 sealed the deal for me and I loved the product. I have upgraded the interconnects as money permits and the sound gets better all the time. As we all know once you start buying components from multiple companies the only way to ensure a major mismatch is to shoot for neutrality. But in the same vein I've had a neutral system that sounded degraded on 89% of commercial music. So adding our own colorations to suit our tate has a place here. Like tubes and SS there will always be 2 camps.
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Klippel is actually better than anechoic. For example, at the NRC the chamber is only good to around 80hz....it’s just too small.
I’m not arguing this at all. I’m just saying that, by definition, it’s quasi. :) The results may be better than anechoic, but the measurements are considered quasi. We are estimating an anechoic response even though the measurements themselves were not done in an anechoic environment.
Fortunately for low frequencies we have ground plane measurements, which I believe are actually anechoic... but I’ll leave that to the scientists to debate. :-)
I’m really glad we have all the modern tools for speaker measurement and design, certainly nice to see them trickle down to being affordable for DIY enthusiasts.
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I am happy to learn that Klippel is a much more advanced quasi-anechoic system than I thought. That’s great. Still quasi. 😀
Klippel is actually better than anechoic. For example, at the NRC the chamber is only good to around 80hz....it's just too small.
I don't think you will see new anechoic chambers being built due to Klippel...Klippel is full range and it's just better...more practical, faster, incredibly accurate. Even the best anechoic chambers are like that little bookshelf speaker that is rolled off at 80hz 😃
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If pleasing sonics = “known” measurements, things would be a lot simpler and my bank account would be fuller
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We dont lack fanatics in the world right now and in audio threads too...On each side.
I am here and enjoy but i dont take " the upgrade urge to high end and high cost motto" seriously at all and i can use ASR if needed ( not their tools ideology though) .😊
i think we must create an acoustics audio thread ...The only audio site with the real science of hearing because if you dont know it yet acoustics is not about room panels .. Then we will not be bothered anymore by gear taste marketing snobs nor by tools electrical measures fanatics... 😁
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While I think measurements are important it's hard to respect ASR! I stopped visiting their site years ago!
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ASR is a waste of time for me. Everytime I click on an ASR link I end up regretting it.
Then to have their cult leader show up here ... let's just say that anyone who posts 7X in a row needs medication.
How do I know? As a great comedian said, "I thought it, then I wrote it."
(cogito ergo sum)
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totally agree with you on crossover point analysis...cost tradeoffs....however, I suggest you learn more about the Klippel...you are greatly underestimating it’s abilities. ;-)
@seanheis1 I look forward to having the time, energy, space and money...
Having said that, my experience is that mid-woofers are funny to work with, and I'd have to see actual far field measurements before I took the simulations at face value. I leave the overall value and accuracy of Klippel tools up to others who really care to debate.
Also, quasi-anechoic means anything besides an anechoic measurement. Taking a thousand measurements and having advanced room simulation tools is not "fully anechoic." It’s a simulated anechoic measurement, and that’s exactly how I define quasi-anechoic.
I am happy to learn that Klippel is a much more advanced quasi-anechoic system than I thought. That’s great. Still quasi. 😀
Best,
Erik
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I find useful info on ASR all the time including just now.
Task: use Roon DSP to tweak a pair of Polk Atrium 4 outdoor speakers .
1. Did not measure well on ASR
2. The review indicated a treble bump and bass rolloff at about 100 hz. Good info!
3. The review indicated he liked the sound better than expected after measured but could not recommend.
4. The speakers were measured indoors not outdoors. These are outdoor speakers. They are mounted above ear level on my outside wall.
5. Where my speakers are mounted is not uncommon. Listening is never on axis so treble bump is actually a good thing and not a problem.
6. Now I am well informed and able to tweak the bass rolloff measured with parametric eq in Roon DSP. A bit of a bass bump below 100hz then a rolloff below that to help keep the speakers happy. Also applied headroom mgmt in this case for outdoor use and used Roon speaker setup filter to invert phase which provides a better imaging (in my judgement) outdoors in this case.
7. Ta da! Much better sound!
8. Thanks for the useful measures info on Polk Atrium 4s ASR! I could have done my own measurements but you saved me the time and effort. Much appreciated!
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Let you ears be the judge.On what you like .Your the one who will be listening most of the time....Enjoy.
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totally agree with you on crossover point analysis...cost tradeoffs....however, I suggest you learn more about the Klippel...you are greatly underestimating it's abilities. ;-)
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Fellas, send the Madrona Digital Revel dealer (who sits around with 1 speaker klippeling away in his garage...whoop di doo) back to his forum and get this type of information directly from the horses’ mouth. You would think he oughta be busy selling Revels, accepting donations from the herd on his forum, etc, staying in his lane. But here he is...trying to do more "outreach" n all (the deep pocket donors exist here, i suppose). Hmmm, maybe, his herd is thinning a bit, when it realizes that the crap he recommends sounds indeed like crap.
Nevertheless, the fanatical side of his herd will eventually settle on some active that looks like a flat line and sounds like a turd.
It’s about what "errors" a designer chooses to live with or not, i.e., what he feels is saleable to a larger number of ears....when these guys oughta run a business (it’s not like they’re incapable of cooking a flat line for a fanatical herd).
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Glad to see Amir-ASR here. Takes some guts given how he gets bashed around in here. I like ASR and think there’s valuable info there. In addition to reviews, Amir’s general write ups on digital audio are very good. HDMI was eye opening. Thanks, Amir.
Amir's (sometimes) tone is what gets him bashed. Measurements are useful information, and when Amir delivers measurements or other explanation in a neutral tone, it's all fine.
But sometimes Amir's tone, which is echoed by a core of members at ASR, is triggering. My personal opinion is that someone that "has the podium" like Amir should work to set a better example of respect and civility than he does. Doesn't really matter how stupid the posts he responds to seem to be.
The ASR process has its place. But there are fanatics there like everywhere else and they don't recognize their own biases.
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Let’s be real, many, if not most members of ASR are there for self-validation—to support the notion that they can build a true high-end system on a very modest budget.
Some on audiogon as myself think the same... Some others not be it on audiogon or ASR ...
Anybody studying basic acoustics, adressing resonance/vibrations and adressing the electrical noise level of the house/room can reach true audiophile S.Q. experience at relatively low cost...
I dont need ASR to do that. Anyway what will they think of my homemade resonators and acoustics devices , shungite+copper plate and my modifications of speakers with cheap straws and my use of homemade acoustic materials and my use of Schumann generators etc... ? I can listen them laughing at me as also many here ...😊
I am ferociously creative independent and know very well why Acoustics matter over anything else...
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So he is an electrical engineer with a degree and is a truth-teller based on science and engineering principles and never speaks sweet lies. They are paid trolls aka influencers come here to mislead viewers with their pseudo science nonsense and brag about their certificate degrees from community colleges.
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Mind you, you can have all of these views and be just fine in ASR. We have plenty of subjectivists that way. The issue comes up is when you take on the membership and try to tell them how it is done. Naturally you get strong pushback. But that is something you are bringing onto yourself.
I suspect the primary issue many have with ASR is the condescending tone adopted by many of its senior members.
It’s quite apparent many of them are merely there to be in an echo chamber, rather than engage in any real debate. Perhaps the biggest irony is some of ASR’s vehement disciples fail to understand the basic principles of its orthodoxy, such as the ability to read graphs, or, like the author of this thread, fail to understand how the Klippel works.
Let’s be real, many, if not most members of ASR are there for self-validation—to support the notion that they can build a true high-end system on a very modest budget. And I say that as someone who places high value on quantifiable performance.
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I bought the Fosi sk1 headphone amplifier and preamp thanks to you ...
But i did not buy it because it was good on the measurements test...
It is a plus and a positive fact ONLY...
I bought it because you listened to it and you wanted one for your headphone which you tested with it... 😊
You were right, a bargain for the price under 100 bucks.
Thanks I used it for my secondary headphones at night for documentaries and movies...A little music ...He drive my AKG K340 hybrid better than a very well known tube amplifier costing 20 times its price. ( i know because i tried it biased by the price tag and reviews) 😁
And what if you can’t listen to the device? Those of us who know the power of measurements, can easily deal with this. Those that don’t, miss out on great audio gear.
By the way i cannot be influenced by the look of my gear i use acoustics to modify my speakers and only use relatively low cost or vintage pieces which i modified in acoustic dedicated room .
You critics can made sense only for gullible passive consumers of relatively high cost products...
Then you accusation of biases are exagerated and do not concern people using acoustics basic...
Your ears can be very useful in assessing fidelity but not when you involve your other senses such as eyes, and sources of bias.
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"Is the amp class A or A/B, how many watts in class a?
It is well proven that components that have measured bad sound very good and vice versa. This goes for this guys measurements and stereophiles.
Your ears are the best instruments to use when evaluating audio components."
It doesn't matter what class an amplifier is. It is all in the implemention/engineering.
And no, it is not remotely proven that badly measuring devices sound better. At best, they sound the same if the impairments are not bad enough for listening to hear.
Your ears can be very useful in assessing fidelity but not when you involve your other senses such as eyes, and sources of bias. Even when there are provable, audible differences, these sources of bias dominate outcome of listening tests. Without controlled testing, you are just generating noise, not data.
And what if you can't listen to the device? Those of us who know the power of measurements, can easily deal with this. Those that don't, miss out on great audio gear.
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"I suppose I do not get the point of this thread. Once a speaker is placed and set up in a typical listening room, all bets are off, no matter what measurements were used in the design of them."
Above transition frequencies of a few hundred hertz, speaker dominates. Yes, there are secondary such as reflections but we have a good model to represent them in measurements as well. See this standard CEA-2034 measurement in every speaker review I do:
We can even predict the response with decent accuracy in a room:
In bass domain, the room dominates almost independent of the speaker. So there, you must have a strategy for dealing with room modes, again, independent of what speaker you use.
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The most important measurements are acoustics measurements and parameters.
You can change the gear to accomodate a specific room , but nobody sell the house because the gear dont match the room. 😁The important set of measures are acoustics and psychoacoustics. Period. 😊
It is why so useful some Amir reviews could be their ideological tool measures obsession is useless for creating a good system /room S.Q. or at least not enough ...
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I suppose I do not get the point of this thread. Once a speaker is placed and set up in a typical listening room, all bets are off, no matter what measurements were used in the design of them. Other than Roy Allison and his implemental designs with bass using rear wall placement, speakers are unpredictable in real room situations. I do not believe measurements are unimportant, but there are some great sounding pieces of gear, that measure poorly. I do respect Amir, with his testing and measuring. I am saying goodbye to this thread. My best always, MrD.
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