Solid State Phono Stages

I just moved from an Aesthetix Rhea Sig to the Pass XP-27.  Honestly I could not hear significant difference except Pass is quieter.  Very happy with XP-27 and love not having to worry about tubes.

The Paradox Phono 70 Signature phono preamplifier is a sonic bargain, but has very limited adjustments.  Very positive online reviews.  Not sure if too powerful for your PC1 cart.

@tyray I don’t think anyone else on this thread makes a direct comparison, but lots of useful info here. I participated in this thread as well, and Dan Wright too commented.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/herron-vtph-2a-vs-modwright-ph-9-0

@thiefoflight 

You’re probably right about me keeping the PH9.0X. Even if I did buy a solid state stage, I’m not sure I would let go of it. As a tube unit it has bested some Allnics, the Herron VTPH-2A, the Rogue Ares Magnum, and Fosgate Signature Phono.

The ModWright PH9.0X bested the Herron VTPH-2A? Not trying to start a fight just gob smacked curious? Can anyone else testify? Thanks

@thiefoflight 

hi. I can only say the Tom Evans for solid state are really fantastic. Groove SR used or a regular groove new easily 5-8k or less. I have heard them and two fantastic ears (big time reviewers)  in the industry have them in their systems. VTL tp 6.5 series 1 used or a new VTL tp 2.5 is 5k. I think VTL wastes AR not only in their phono (which is their specialty) but also their amps. Bea Lamm only listens to vinyl and she is the ears behind VTL. My  S-400 series 2 amplifier by VTL is absolutely incredible. World class. I think there is a used mastergroove SR for sale on the web.

musical surroundings phenomena II plus with linear charging power supply.

This combo sounds much better than it's price would suggest.

See Herbs report in stereophile

Two sleepers from me: I run a Zyx Universe CU24 on a Dynavector arm through a Bobsdevices Altec TBB103 SUT to a Zyx Artisan, which is not a universal tool but through its battery supply very quiet and with the Zyx cartridge beautifully neutral and musical

I also run a Scheu MC (Benz modification) on a Mørch arm through a balanced connection to an Aqvox 2ci. This combo is punchier but less musical than the Zyx, more for rock music whereas the Zyx shines on classical. The Aqvox in balanced mode is very impressive but doesn’t match the Zyx as well as the Artisan.

@lohanimal Not offended and agree with you that written communications on forums can be misconstrued given lack of supporting tone at times. I, too, was just further stating my case in my response. Good to hear your recommendations, they are appreciated. 

@thiefoflight 

I hope i did not offend you as that wasn't intended. The problem with forum threads is that it often becomes my latest is the best and i will talk about it until i get the next item.

roy gregory who was at hifi plus did a series of very good reviews around 15 years ago - many of the units are still in production such as the EAR, Boulder and Tom Evans.

If it were my money - BOULDER; WHEST - 

If I could afford it constellation - also consider parasound jc3 - i heard one in a parasound system - i have both a whest and vendetta in my system - love them both

Enthusiast evolve in their understanding of how to listen to music analytically and for pleasure.

Enthusiast also evolve in their understanding of how the system in use works as an entire set up. The enthusiast will have a good grasp on where the system is in terms of the performance on offer and where they might have a want for it, as it is not quite able to deliver in a certain frequency or perception to the owners unique preferences.

Engineers evolve as well, their hands on experience and interactions hone the skill set, and the hooks that adopt to eek the best out of a circuit becomes their signature.

Keeping in contact with an individual who has skills that one can only dream off acquiring and also one that has a trust in you, at times inviting you along for ypur thoughts to be shared and showing a dependence on your own experiences, is a great place to be. I would not change a thing.

Andy Groves who is the Head Engineer in Audionote and possibly is executive in the Company was the designer of my first owned SS Phonostage.

Andy was also instrumental in the design of my first Valve Power Amp.

Both of these designs introduced me to an EE who I am still good friends with today and we are at present doing a project together once more.

Andy now uses Panzerholz as part of the structure for certain Audionote Circuits, the material might even be used for all the products created at present.

Is this a circuit improvement electronically or is a structure that improves the circuit when in operation ?? It is a hook and is born as an idea and then curiosity has yielded the result where the method is seen as worthwhile and to part of a design.

My own Engineer has developed hooks and he is quite protective of these, he has always requested that I do not make knowledge of his IP known, which I have faithfully honoured.

Another Electronics Engineer friend who has produced Pre Amps and Phonostages,  felt that his HiFi system was maxed, and there was no need to add a device of any type.

They were curious about the interfaces for the umbilical's.The individual has high quality Cables and RCA Plugs, and focused on the Chassis Sockets, as the next parts to be considered to be exchanged.

The swap of the Sockets to another brands Chassis Mount Sockets blew him away at the improvements on offer, I have heard this exchange of parts and the change is detectable and is a method I will be adopting.

Keeping the curiosity and interest is important and being broad minded will go a long way. A look at the simpler things in the system can yield the levels of change in a system, that some part with extortionate amounts of monies to try to correct. 

@ghdprentice We're understanding each other. Musical and detailed to me also has bad connotations. For me, analytical allows me to "see" into the music. Being detailed is not always good if the detail is not being presented well. If it's just in your face without grace, the listener has no focal point and it all falls apart. That's probably what you associate as analytical. But the true root of analytical is something that can be analyzed, so delivery and presentation matters a lot. This topic is something that has caused divide across the community for so many years, even generations, and hopefully one day it will be bridged. I, too, don't want to associate myself as a typical "analytical" listener, but I won't deny that I want to hear it all, and hear it all with grace and soul.

@thiefoflight  …”But I am in the camp that believes that a component can be analytical and be incredibly musical and enjoyable.”

ok, we definitely are talking about definitions.. Maybe it is just because I am an old fart, but analytical to me means overly detailed… achieved by less midrange and bass bloom… causing a highlighting of detail… which always comes at a loss of warmth and generally musicality. It is like slam which is increased by reducing midrange and upper bass… the contrast highlights the fast transient bass (something ss is good at). But the downside is you loose bass resolution.
 

To me you are talking about wanting a detailed musical system… the thing ARC is known for. Analytical has bad connotations to me.

+1 @pindac! Wonderfully said. I would say that in both cases, either across industry events, working directly with manufacturers, and buying/selling on the used market has expanded my network in ways I value sometimes more than the gear I end up getting.

While I am curious about SS stages, one of the reasons I love my Modwright PH9.0X (aside from the fact that it kicks serious butt) is my multi-year engagement with Dan Wright. He has been an incredible designer and engineer that listens and provides impeccable guidance. He has designed some products around my needs.

I always tend to find myself keeping in contact with anyone I buy and sell from as well, and the perspective gained from that is priceless. It's unfortunate that forum dialogue and interaction doesn't result in the same level of real-world relationships.

My experience is all about being social and interactive with other enthusiasts.

HiFi is a diminishing concern when the younger generations are considered, and I am happy to support any event that might attract some of the younger individuals, as well as be a face to be met and supply support to any queries presented.

Also through this behaviour to get out and interact, I have been fortunate to have come to know accomplished EE's that are not only adept followers of circuits, but known for being accomplished as circuit designers and have designed works for known Brands as well as take on commission builds bespoke produced to the customer.

 A few of these EE's have progressed to having their own growing Brands of which some the sale items have even got a mention on this forum, not too bad for a modern UK Brand. 

It is a nice moment for an individual, when a Company Owner values your own assessment and is keen to receive an evaluation of a work in hand. This is even more of a moment when the designer is willing to loan a prototype for a prolonged assessment.

Most of my devices I own today are commission built or known Brand Models that are subsequently given as a donor to be overhauled by known individuals who specialise with such products.

As I have been instrumental in participating with the majority of my devices that are commission built, it is not a option to have a home demo', but as I have been assessing the work, produced at different stages, and a participant in the trialing of and the selecting of components, I have a very good idea of the SQ being developed for the devices.

This is a method that has suited me, as not only have I acquired items I am making old bones with, and do not intend on separating from, the friendships formed and maintained are as healthy as the admiration of the products produced. 

I would use the dealer rooms to see products, the real benefit is looking to see if it is possible to be meeting with the individuals responsible for a design.

There is the likelihood, when they are met, they can see a real enthusiast is in their presence, and this can be good as there will usually be a meeting where the individual will be quite willing to exchange dialogue.  A event can be a good place to encounter these types of individual.

At the last public event I attended prior to COVID, a similar dialogue developed between a room visitor and a EE who I was with, with the result being a follow up meeting was arranged and a Bespoke Built Phonostage was produced for the individual based on the standard design being demonstrated during the event.

Whatever method is adopted to encounter products of interest, a product tailer made to to deliver the majority of ones own preferences is not too bad a place to arrive at either.  

Graham slee Era Gold V. Moving magnet only, but you can step up a moving coil with an appropriate SUT. Michael Fremer seems to like it a lot. I bought one a few years ago, I opted for the stereo/mono switch option. It is very nice. I use both a Jensen and Rothwell SUT with mine, depending on which MC cartridge I have installed at the time. Pair the Era Gold V with the Graham slee PSU1 power supply for even better performance. 

Michael Fremer in Stereophile calls it a "miraculous phono preamp" for its ability to change and dramatically lift an entire system’s sound quality and make music sound more realistic and life-like!

@pindac - 100% agree that real world experience is invaluable. I will be attending AXPONA, but it will likely not be a great place to get the most out of phono stages. When I went in 2019, there surely some rooms, but most focused on the proliferation of digital. Also, the rooms and system chains are always different, so chances are it won’t sound anything like it would in my room. I would have to draw conclusions and hope for the best. I have also reached out to my personal network, who has allowed me to try a number of SS stages. But it never hurts to gain perspective from forums as well. What’s happening on this thread may influence me, but won’t solely convince me of any decision. Likely what will is if I can get to a dealer that has one of the top units of consideration and they allow me to demo at home, or if one of those units comes on the market considerably marked down so that I can resell at minimal loss. The latter makes up for most of my audio journey, and it’s been fun to have all the experiences I’ve had as a result, and at times it has even been profitable.

@kerrybh Thanks for advocating again for Simaudio.

@mijostyn Vinyl in general is old tech, as is my cart, but circuit design has evolved in nuanced ways over the last ten years to innovate and outperform, just as it did the ten years prior to that. It was really only the late 70s to mid 90s that went backwards for many (albeit a small few that carried the torch) where 2nd order harmonics were largely given up for specs, and high SNR and CD players became centers for marketing attraction and pushed musicality out of the way. In today’s era where people seek true holography in their experience, both need to coexist, and the tech has gotten better to enable that. Yes, some of the products I’m considering are already ten years old. But perhaps they address areas that compliment the rest of my room and system setup to get me further down the road.

Absolutely love the suggestion for Sutherland and Channel D. I mentioned prior that they are high on the consideration list.

@thiefoflight , all that is old tech. The PC-1 is a very low impedance cartridge. If you want to get the most out of it you want a Transimpedance or current mode phono stage. Examples are the Sutherland Loco and little Loco, the BMC MCCI and the Channel D Seta L or Lino C. I just ordered a Seta L Plus to use with a Lyra Atlas Lambda SL.

I have the simaudio 610 with the clear audio performance dc and I'm really happy with it- very quiet, plenty of detail and great mids. I assume the 810 is similar except better. Either would be a good choice. 

Well you could look for a pair of Krell KPA s you want two of them so you can run them true dual mono. You want a pair of them if you want exceptional. 

Regards

An experienced ear knows what is making a good impression with an immediacy.

Spending time at an event can introduce encounters to devices of interest that are on a shortlist or not.

When an attractor is encountered it is known in an instance, the next hurdle is to learn of how the device is able to be home auditioned.

Laying out considerable sums of money is not necessary to encounter a variety of Phon's.

Selecting a excursion to a event and having a social interaction is a very enjoyable way to make new discoveries and indelible memories.  

@ghdprentice I understand what you are trying to say. But I am in the camp that believes that a component can be analytical and be incredibly musical and enjoyable. Advanced technology can now afford this to us, where resolution so clear and dissectable can be delivered to us in the most effortless and pleasing ways. The Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC is a great example of this. It is probably one of the most musical and analytical components combined. I’ve also owned the Ref 6 and Ref 150 SE, which are fairly recent ARC reference pieces. They were both musical, but largely more analytical, especially for tube. You’re right that the divide is narrowing, but many will still agree that the latest ARC is analytical.

It’s funny how a word’s definition and connotation may change over a generation. People used to generally associate analytical with bone dry, providing clarity into the music at the expense of delivering emotion and understanding soul. Today, data is the silent language of people, and artificial intelligence mines it to make technology be more human. Hence, analytics is starting to understand and mimic soul. The same is happening for audio. This is precisely why I fell in love with T+A. Their Hv line has the soul that is typically associated with the very best tube gear, but the “blackness” from its incredible resolution and high SNR allow listeners to truly both analyze and feel the music in parallel.

With this in mind, I’d say I’d like to remain curious about the Ref 3 Phono. :) I doubt I will ever buy it, but I would never say no to an opportunity to listen to it, especially in my own system.

@lewm I initially posted this before reading your most recent post, but now that I did, I think you and I are on the same page, so this applies to you as well.

Seems like you will have to buy about a half dozen phono stages in order to appease the crowd, and then listen to them in your system in order to make your own decision. I am being only half facetious. Sometimes you really do have to buy several different versions of the same thing in order to figure out what you like. In your case, you already do have a backlog of experience with many tube and SS phono stages. It is my sense that the best tube and the best SS phono stages have tended to converge upon each other over the last 10 years; it is no longer justifiable to think of tubes as "warm and rolled off" or SS as "cold and analytical". As Mr Prentice already said.

OP…”I think my listening preferences have changed to be a bit more analytical, so the Ref 3 phono does interest me.”

Ok, the REF 3 should not interest you. From what you are saying you really are moving in the opposite direction.

If you look from a high level in the changes in audiophile equipment over the last 40 or 50 years. Tube was musical, really warm and a bit rolled off at high and low frequencies. SS was fast but with copious quantities of high frequency hash and really distorted treble. They have been converging from these opposite sides. As an example Audio Research leading the way (admittedly floundering a bit un the late 90’s ėarly 2000… but killing it after that) Pass has step by step worked from high output detailed… calming down the distortion and getting more musical. The devide still exists… but it is so much smaller… but important for those of us that have really great systems. ARC is high resolution (as opposed to MAC, for instance) very natural. And musical… not a bit of analytical. The ARC Ref 3 Phonostage is beautiful… but not remotely analytical… don’t give it another thought.

You should think Boulder, Mark Levinson, Pass, SIm… I am sure there are a couple more.

@thiefoflight the Avid Pulsare is a serious phonostage and possesses similar character as the ART9. Neutral, musical and dynamic. It can boogie and play classical without a bias. Typical grown up British kit.

A little more data on other Phonostages being talked here. The only Whest worth considering is their MC Ref, their top of the line. Anything below sounds clean, fast but also dry and lacking intensity.

Boulder is good but at that price check out an FM Acoustics 122 Mk2. It is very very good.

Hi @lohanimal - I fully understand it’s not black and white. But if you read my posts, you’ll see I’ve owned a whole suite of tube phono stages as well as the PS Audio Stellar Phono and Pass xOno which are both solid state. Those two had a lot of differences from each other, but they also did not have the characteristics of my tube stages. It’s not like I’ve never tried a SS stage. I’m just further exploring my options, just as I have with just about every type of tube preamp and  amp and a number of solid state preamps/amps. But right now what I am looking for is a high end solid state stage to further my experience and expertise. I’m not looking to generalize and that was never the intent of this thread. And I’m being open minded with many of the suggestions because I know they will all impart different personalities in my system. As I said, the offer to audition is appreciated, but if it doesn’t have a balanced output stage it does not really suit my needs given the space I would like to have between the phono stage and my preamp. 

@varyat I have the first whest 0.20 - superb phono stage - I understand the ref and subsequent models are better still.

@thiefoflight 

It's too much of a generalisation to consider it simply between valve and SS design.

For instance the Whest is very different to a Tom Evans which is then different to a Vendetta. Its a bit like going from a FWD to a RWD car - ie a porsche vs bmw vs ferrari are all very different.

Try and audition one in your system - take up @bigkidz  offer...

Good. I think you may just keep it if you try it :)

@au_lait Thanks for that link to the comparison thread. Looks like I’d be in the camp to invest in the XP-27 if I do go the Pass route. 
 

@varyat Good call on Whest. I’ll look into the PS 40RDT. 

My .02...try a Whest Audio phono stage. Music Direct carries them now here in the US and I believe that you can return it if needed. 

A PS. 40RDT will serve all of your needs. Email James Henriot at the Whest Audio website if you have any questions- he can customize your unit if needed. He is a great resource and builds great phono stages.

I have had many phonostages . Currently have an Allnic H-7000, the Sutherland Phono Loco and the Whest MC Ref V mono's which are no longer made. I have owned the Whest PS.30 RDT and the Titan Pro prior to the monos. Fast, clean and dynamic. Quiet and very adjustable. Just great products imo....

ATB,

Mark

@rauliruegas Ah yes, the Boulder definitely made my list as I was looking at it last night. They don’t come on the market too often unfortunately. I know the 1108 is higher up and maybe out of my price range but any opinion on whether the older 1008 is preferred over the 508?

@thiefoflight  : The suggestion on the Boulder 508 is very good too and along the SimsAudio all the others, including the ARs and your MR,  are beated easily.

Just an opinion.

R. 

and others - ever compare an XP-25 with the XP-27? How big is the improvement on the 27? That’s something I’ve been curious about.

I haven’t compared xp25 to xp27, but read a bit from people that have. In the end I found a good deal on the xp25 and it was already quite a jump from my RCM Sensor II.

@holmz Sutherland is now definitely on my consideration set.

@bigkidz Thank you for the offer to audition the Tom Evans. I’ve known two people who have owned it locally but didn’t get a chance to listen to it before they moved on from them. I will let you know if I’d like to take you up on it but balanced outs to the preamp would be a priority for me as I am considering moving my table away from my main system.

@jjss49 Lehmann has a good rep for sure, and I admittedly haven’t considered them. I’ve also forgotten about Ayre and never looked into their phono stages. That will be something I’ll need to do. I know Ayre has had some reputation of having a dry sound, but I’ve found their reference level gear to be quite incredible.

@au_lait and others - ever compare an XP-25 with the XP-27? How big is the improvement on the 27? That’s something I’ve been curious about.

@pani You too are advocating and validating Simaudio for me. I also was a fan of your ART-9 thread, which is still one of my favorite carts to date. When my last one died, I went to the DV-1s, then ART-1000 and liked neither. I then sold both and found the Air Tight PC-1s, which has the same character as the ART-9 but at much higher fidelity and grace. I also agree with your comments on the Stellar Phono and  JC3+. I’ll have to look into the Pulsare 2 as I haven’t even heard of that one!

Having heard many of the Phonostages mentioned here and some more, my 2 cents 1. The likes of PS Audio Stellar and JC3+ are good value but they ultimately sound like a sub 5k phonostage. They touch the high end end of the game.

Simaudio 610 and Avid Pulsare 2 are the 2 best SS Phonostages in this price range that I have heard. They are not too polished. They sound raw and have that bold drive in their presentation. Tonality, Prat and Dynamics, all proper and in the high end league.

@lewm Excellent posts. Thanks,

I have the XP-25. It is DEAD quiet. 

they are at a lower price level but my two faves, that i have kept after trying many over the years is the lehmann decade and the ayre px5e, wonderful sounding, dead quiet, adjustable, high gain

i too prefer ss phono stages for the low hassle factor, quiet and purity, just straight wire plus gain as much as possible for that miniscule signal... tube ’magic’ is easier and better introduced later in the chain if needed (e.g., linestage)...

Tom Evans phono stages are good BUT the company has been very unreliable over the years. 

I have a Tom Evans that is a fantastic SS phono.  I'd be willing to send to you for an audition.  Happy Listening.

I have just learnt the the Brand Phasemation does not seem to have a supply chain within the USA, so the E-350 Model Phon' is not looking like it is a Stock Item within the Country.

That is a shame, as it does present in a manner that is very attractive.

@ghdprentice 

I had a K&K Audio Maxxed Out pre for almost 20 years and loved it. Before that I had a few tube preamps with phono stages. Most recently I was using a Fosgate Signature phono stage which was also very good. The SPL, as I mentioned above, is more dynamic with better bass. But it also unravels details in complex recordings a little better.

@holmz You’re probably right about me keeping the PH9.0X. Even if I did buy a solid state stage, I’m not sure I would let go of it. As a tube unit it has bested some Allnics, the Herron VTPH-2A, the Rogue Ares Magnum, and Fosgate Signature Phono. In terms of tube stages the Luxman EQ-500 also caught my attention and there is another thread where I comment on that in this forum. I’ve been advocating for the PH9.0X for years, so this is just my never ending curiosity just to say “I tried that”.

^Understood.^
It is some of this (I’ve tried that) that moved me to an upgrade.

Now looking to whether I set of a garage system with the ARC, and a cheap table, or move it on. (Etc.) It is not a high $ phono stage, but pretty good for 30+ years old.

Most of the ones you’ve mentioned should be good. I have no experience with the Sutherland, but if I was a hardcore MC guy, I would be taking a look if I had not gotten a stage with the SUTs built in.

boothroyd, The Phono Loco by Sutherland is balanced.  The BMC MMCI is another balanced "transimpedance" phono stage.

There is no reason a current-driven stage cannot operate in balanced mode; it just has to have been built to do so with essentially separate gain circuits for the positive and negative phases of a balanced signal. This is much easier to do with solid state gain stages than with tubes.

I have the Boulder 508 and it’s fantastic. Compared to the 2108 and it was very close. Table is an AMG V12

@ghdprentice I appreciate it. I have had some ARC gear, and they tend to vary in quality with more recent units generally sounding much better. I had the Ref 6 line stage and Ref 150 SE amp for a short while. They were both very good but not sonically where my heart was at a few years ago. I think my listening preferences have changed to be a bit more analytical, so the Ref 3 phono does interest me.

@holmz You’re probably right about me keeping the PH9.0X. Even if I did buy a solid state stage, I’m not sure I would let go of it. As a tube unit it has bested some Allnics, the Herron VTPH-2A, the Rogue Ares Magnum, and Fosgate Signature Phono. In terms of tube stages the Luxman EQ-500 also caught my attention and there is another thread where I comment on that in this forum. I’ve been advocating for the PH9.0X for years, so this is just my never ending curiosity just to say “I tried that”.

I also used to own a few SUTs including an EAR MC3. That one was very good, but  I’m in the camp on “no more SUTs ever again”. 

OP,

Yes, the REF 3 is expensive. Fyi. I used to own a PH8… which I thought was an incredibly good deal for the money. I also owned a PH2, pH2Se, PH3, PH3SE, No trying to make you change your mind… just sharing my observations.

@ghdprentice The ARC Ref3 Phono definitely makes me drool, but even at it’s used prices it is a bit too expensive for me. Since I only live 10 min from Audio Research, perhaps one day I’ll find a way to demo it in my system. I’ve tried lower end ARC (PH6) and preferred the Modwright PH9.0X.

I’ll definitely report back, though it may take some time based on availability of units since I may not be buying a new one. I’d say the SimAudio MOON 810LP and 610LP are still the ones that are appealing me the most, and there is a 610LP used on the market right now but at a higher asking price than normal. I’m also looking for a unit with a full silver face plate if possible, but it’s not a deal breaker. Until then, competitive research keeps me busy and helps me be patient. 

”And  the old Audio Research PH2 has a fair amount of hiss”… That was released in 1992… thirty years ago. 
 

My ARC PH8 had no hiss as does my REF 3. 

Yeah, probably… I got it used in ‘98… and everyone knows that the ARC should be replaced as often as possible. 😂

My new (used) phono stage is at least 20 years newer 😎.

If one is playing at ~90dB SPL the hiss is not heard between tracks. It needs to be more like 100+ dB, and the head near the speaker, to hear the hiss.

It still sounds pretty good for music, and I do not have my head in front of the tweeter listening for hissing often… so the main reason for the upgrade was to be able to use other cartridges.

You can probably discount my suggestion for the OP to stay with what they have, or at least we have an understanding that I do not replace gear without having a reason to do so.

@ozzy62 

Interesting. What did you have? What do you have now. What does your solid state do that your tube did not? 

”And  the old Audio Research PH2 has a fair amount of hiss”… That was released in 1992… thirty years ago. 
 

My ARC PH8 had no hiss as does my REF 3.