I have been looking at that amp. It looks like a well made beast! Let us all know how it sounds. I have a chinese push-pull Line Magnetic 216 integrated that I really like...but curious about this one. Also I would like to know how hot it gets... please share with all who would want to know more about this amp and the Willsenton brand.
|
Congrats on your new amp! That SHF thread is very informative obviously I hope you find a tube combo that you love.
|
I;ve read so many good things about the Willsenton KT88 integrated that I actually was seriously considering it as a second amp, but instead just bought a First Watt F7 because I always wanted to try one with my efficient speakers.
The one that you got must be really good. I would love to hear it. The build quality of their amps looks great. Congrats.
|
Not to derail the thread, but @roxy54 what do you think of the Pass?
|
ozzy62,
I’ll be glad to tell you after I receive it. It’s coming on Tuesday. I’m pretty excited about this one.
I bought it after reading many positive things about First Watt in general and the F7 in particular. It should be a great match with my efficient horns. The only thing that makes me slightly nervous is recalling my short ownership years ago of a Pass Labs X250.5. I hated it.
|
I would listen to the amp with stock tubes for at least several months in order to learn its sonic signature (especially because you already love it), and then would start tube rolling - slowly, pair by pair. Just live with acertain pair of tubes for a while and listen to the music. Hectic tube-rolling would not bring you (and me) much pleasure...
|
Thanks for your replies!
@2psyop I have no thermometer at hand here, at least none I could use for measuring the amp´s heat. All I can say is yes, it does produce warmth or heat, but even after running for an hour you can touch the cage (above the tubes) without getting burned immediately.
@unison77 You are right there, but I´m impatient. I can always go back to the stock tubes once I hear how it sounds with others. Maybe some of the outlier tubes I bought will sound crappy and the stock ones turn out to be great in comparison, who knows.
Unfortunately without any reference point it will be hard for me to describe the sound of the amp accurately. I mean, that´s always the problem when people describe their impressions: Some of the terminology is so vague and perception to a good part individual, you always have to read what people say. Then factors like sound sources, the room, age of the listener, etc come on top.
What I can say is that compared to my old Rotel RA-03 the sound is tremendously different: The warmth is there, that I so desired, the soundstage opened. It´s like the music (especially voices) are not coming from the speakers anymore but from somewhere between them. The bass is more pronounced than before, in a pleasant way. As for the highs: I think it could improve there. On this soundstage they feel a bit like behind a curtain, just a bit. The audiophile bit that when I listen casually doesn´t matter.
One thing I have to point out that I found not expressed anywhere else: There is music, that will not work well with this amp and I guess tube amps in general. I tried Alva Noto´s latest record „Hybr:ID 1“: It´s super clean, almost surgical electronic music from Germany (he made great records with Ryuichi Sakamoto), there are high buzzes and beeping sounds paired with nice rolling bass. It feels like my stereo tries to put a human warmth in there but it struggles, it can´t. Which means it´s not designed to reproduce this kind of music the way the music asks for. And that will extend to other kinds of music too. Some brickwalled/LUFS-optimized pop and electronic music. Oh yes, I tried some current Drum´n´Bass – nah.
Here´s some music I know quite well that gained a new level of sonic expressiveness with the amp, ie: gave me much pleasure:
The Cranberries „No need to argue“ (the presence of the voice right at the beginning – I guess that will be my demo track for the stereo)
Stereolab „Margerine Eclipse“
40 Watt Sun „Perfect Light“
Bremer/McCoy „Natten“
Low „C´Mon“
Yob „Our raw heart“
Calexico „Feast of wire“
more to come...
|
chmaiwald. Very nice comments on the sound of the amp. I would be very surprised if you were not satisfied with that amp. Further down the road you can look at other tubes. I have replaced my output tubes with Genelex Gold Lion and the preamp tubes with NOS GE and Sylvania. That took my Line Magnetic up from good to very good. But I have heard Mullard, Brimar and Telefunken have a stellar sonic signature. It’s refreshing to know the amp does not get too hot. When I switched from SS to tubes I couldn’t go back. It’s either an all tube system or tubes on the preamp side and SS amp. I really like the old warm sound. To me it’s organic and pure...
|
The Chrome browser translates foreign language web pages. I use it a lot for Italian pages.
|
I've always wondered about after sale support from the likes Wlllsenton, Cayin, and multiple seemingly well regarded amps that don't have wide distribution in the USA. That's the major reason I stayed away from them.
|
Cart before the horse. Always listen to original first.
Unfortunately without any reference point it will be hard for me to describe the sound of the amp accurately.
|
@chmaiwald
Congratulations on your purchase.
You are so correct, the Cornwalls love tubes!
All the best.
JD
|
@roxy54
The First Watt F7 should very likely be a much better match for your horn speakers compared to the Pass Lab 250.5. Intuitively the 250.5 does not seem a good match for a horn speaker. I'm curious as to how you find the F7 compared to a high quality tube amplifier driving your horns. I'm looking forward to your listening impressions.
Charles
|
@chmaiwald You should be able to play all genres of music with a good setup, no inherent reason your amp/speaker combo can't do it, problem elsewhere.
I have modded Klipschorns and SET amps, it plays extremely nice with the exact cuts and albums you mentioned, EDM, electronic or really any genre. Has human warmth, along with momentum, timing, impact enough to propel and invite total involvement. My listening sessions can go from traditional vocal, lets say Nat King Cole to rock to EDM to expeimental to hip hop to jazz to classical, all very involving.
First thing is getting timbre and tonal balance correct, getting proper match with amp/speaker combo should take care of momentum/impact side of equation.
Over time you should play with better 300b tubes, those and 805 should have more impact on sound quality than signal tubes.
|
Tarun has a nice review of this AMP....
Enjoy your purchase!
|
Yespoke33, but that's a different amp, the less expensive kt88 one which is also supposed to be very nice.
|
@2psyop Probably some would argue that „organic“ and „pure“ may be a contradiction, but I think I know what you say. And what @sns says goes for me in the same direction: Event though tube amps have their particular characteristics such as the warmth it doesn´t mean that it can´t handle all kinds of music that have very different sonic signatures. Maybe my comment on tube amps not being able to handle super clean style (such as Alva Noto) or something else was uninformed. And I´d be happy about that. Thanks for the correction! This changes the position of my goal posts. I´d be happy to achieve a warm but still linear sound that doesn´t let its qualities clash with music that may not need them.
Because the setup will not play vocal jazz only. My taste is also pretty broad, from Renaissance Choir Music to Chaotic Hardcore, from Ambient to Classic Rock and so on. So it has to retain some kind of neutrality while being tubey. This tube rolling adventure is about finding out to exactly what extend this can achieved.
@philgo01 All I can say is that whatever question I had was answered within half a day or a day via email. They also asked after I bought if everything arrived safely and if I was satisfied. The amp came double boxed with heavy foamy plastic inbetween. An info sheet inside said that with improved packaging they pushed the return rates because of transport damages to (as far as I remember) about 1%. Returning would definitely be a hassle but somewhere I read they were very helpful once it happened to someone. But yeah, China is not downtown.
@noromance I´m not exactly sure what you are referring to here. As I said my reference is the old Rotel I own, which it easily outperforms. Comparing to other tube amps was impossible. Going to other cities, numerous shops with different setups and rooms, probably even on different days to check out other amps that fit my criteria seemed not a desireable way to compare amps as neutrally as possible. Maybe you see that differently, fair enough. Sure, I could start with a smaller tube amp to get a feel for it. But as I mentioned before, I´m impatient, if this is the right word here. Why not go for the real deal right away. The Willsenton is cheap. Of the models I narrowed my choice down to it was still the cheapest while getting the best reviews. And cheap in this case means no dealer round the corner. It´s something, a gamble you might say, I have agreed on by buying straight from China. And that´s not something I´d recommend to everyone. It´s just what I did. And do I know that it is the best tube amp? I don´t. Does it make me happy and feel like I made a good choice? Definitely.
@ibmjunkman Thanks for the hint. Being able to speak german, english and polish already gives me quick access to far too many offers. I saw that hifishark.com automatically scours some Italian websites. So I may even buy a tube or so from there in the future.
That gives me the idea to set up a tube website list. I came across so many websites ever since I started getting into the topic, I definitley have no overview. I forgot the url of a dealer that just put up NOS tubes on his blog once s/he got new stock in. Let´s see.
There are some nice tube comparisons on websites, blogs and in forums. I wish they were all as extensive as this one about 6SN7s.
@poke33 Thanks for pointing to this, but it´s about the R8, not the R-800i model. They come with a considerably different choice of tubes so there´s only so much info I can take from this. Like what he says about 6SN7s.
|
philgo01, for those of us with trepidations regarding service after the sale, if you buy these amps through Amazon (including the smaller brother R8 which I've been eyeing after hearing it drive some Lintons), you can buy a 3-year electronics warranty for about $160. Likely worth it in the long run I'd think, just for peace of mind. All the reviewers say these Willsenton integrated amps are built every bit as good as the also communist China made Primaluna Evos. Due to their popularity, Willsenton had to move to a larger factory space recently. Of course, Primaluna has a brand name recognition among "audiophiles" so resale percentage value would perhaps be higher, however if you are only caring about sound quality, the R800i (or the R8) might make sense - with an American company warranty.
|
If one can purchase a legitimately backed extended 3 year warranty for 160.00 USD this is good news and reassuring. It seems that from reviews and word of mouth the Willsenton amplifiers are a quality built product.
I find it very interesting they can offer a 805 (DHT) output tube that requires high voltage circuit/power supply/transformer and driven by another DHT 300b in pure class A at this price point. And do so in a presumably very reliable package. That’s quite impressive. This is an ambitious undertaking.
Beyond the far more common class AB tube amplifier using pentode type tubes in a push-pull circuit.
Charles
|
charles1dad,
From everything that I've read I'm hoping that it will be a good match. The x250.5 was so highly praised at the time, and I had several sets of speakers to try it with, but with all of them it sounded thin and transistory compared to my vintage Mac 2105, but that was a very different animal. I will let you know how it goes.
|
Look into some of the simple DIY mods to those Cornwalls. They really make quite a difference in SQ.
|
I have read a bit about it in the past and was not sure if I´m up for the task. Is there any mod you can receommend?
|
A short update here:
I have tested a few tubes and maybe you´d like to hear.
805 – stock replaced for Cossor
Judging from how they look the stock ones seem to be rebranded PSVane Hifi 805s. After listening to the Cossors for a few weeks I now put the stock tubes back in and I´m surprised that they also sound very good. Maybe a bit too boomy on the low end and with less stage, but tbh I still have to break them in properly, so for now they stay in.
6SN7 – stock replaced for Sylvania GTBs, waiting for Fonon NOS
One of the Fonons was broken. So I´m using the Sylvanias atm. Ordered some RCA NOS and of course I´m tempted to buy and test others but I´m holding back for now. It´s just costly and the Sylvanias are doing a great job. There´s the 300Bs and, probably, the 805s to be taken care of so I´m not trying to get carried away here.
12AX7 – stock replaced with current Mullard model, waiting for West German ones from AEG and Telefunken, East German ones from RSD and Funkwerk Erfurt (both used) and also Sylvania JAN 5751 NOS (a military model)
Still waiting for the west german ones. The stock one was JJ and just like the Sylvania and to a lesser extend the RSD it did a nice job. But the Mullard stands out for me in overall performance: Detailed highs and lows, lovely stage and nicely pronounced mids. Would like to hear NOS Mullards without having to buy them.
5U4G – stock, waiting for RCA NOS black plate and Svetlana NOS „Coke Bottle“
Currently the Svetlana is in and the overall sound seems a bit more transparent. But really, just a bit. Maybe I´m entering the world of audio voodoo because I want to hear a difference. But they also look better. Having read that 5U4Gs shouldn´t have much of an effect on the sound (if at all) I feel no need to look any further here. What a relief!
A few things I learned in the last weeks:
So many people write about audio with a presumed authority but considering their experience, their ears and taste on one side and ones own system, room, taste, ears and financial means on the other there is only so much you can take from it. You have to go your own way. And it´s ok not to end up with a system filled with Telefunkens with diamond bases, other NOS-tubes from that one specific year and whatnot. (By saying this I´m also reminding myself of it.) It´s also the structure of forums like this with people exchanging views about what´s better or not that implies you always have to hunt for the best.
Also, having a system now with much better resolution I also get to hear some mistakes or imperfections that were not so prominent before. Take „Roads“ by Portishead for example, a devastatingly beautiful song. It starts with a great organ intro that immediately pulls you in (down, some would say). Unlike before I now hear that on CD there´s some overdrive on the right chanel there. A few times the sound distorts. It´s bugging me like hell! I checked on spotify – the same. So maybe it´s everywhere and no mastering error. Still, it´s the first time I feel the strong bite of the sudiophile bug that wants to divert my attention from the song (which is still amazing) to the recording. Luckily he doesnt bite that often and I can still focus more on the overall improvement of the playback and a deeper connection to the music I listen to.
Lastly, for now, a question:
How much were tubes back in the day? They were so common but still needed skill and precision in production. It´s hard to imagine how much 12AX7s or 300Bs or 6SN7s used to cost when they were widely available. Does anyone know more or less? And I keep hearing that prices went up a lot in the last years for NOS. How much?
|
In order of importance to sound quality I'd rate 805 first, rectifier, than 300B. The Cossor is produced by Psvane, wouldn't expect much change from stock Psvane, Mullard NOS rectifier is one nice tube, use them in my custom 300B's, much greater reliability and longevity compared to modern, 300B, any number of top tier would be nice.
Assuming that amp up to it, top tier tubes will be impressive upgrade from present tubes. Crazy, but I could easily spend $2500 up on those three tube sets alone, even more crazy, it would be worth it.
I don't know what tubes cost back in day, assume pennies on the dollar, even accounting for inflation. NOS always going up, increasingly limited supply, likely greater demand over time, add inflation, prices up to be expected.
|
Assuming that amp up to it, top tier tubes will be impressive upgrade from present tubes. Crazy, but I could easily spend $2500 up on those three tube sets alone, even more crazy, it would be worth it.
Agree 100%. If it is a good quality SET build, then the upper tier DHT tubes will exploit its full sonic potential.
Charles
|
A quick update:
After testing quite a few 12AX7s I must say: Believe the hype. The Telefunken (ECC83) is the best. Not by far, but overall it does its job extremely well. Second would be the Mullard (current production).
At the moment I´m running old soviet 6SN7 NOSs and really, between them and Sylvania GTB NOSs I´d find it hard to decide. I bought them here for a mere 15€ and I´d be happy to hear what others think about them. I didn´t try too many others, just the stock ones and RCA GTA NOSs, which both just didn´t compare. I heard good things about the bass performance of the PSVane Treasure MkII, if I ever spot a bargain I may be tempted to try these.
5U4G – Svetlana.
805 & 300B – I´m saving for replacments. I didn´t find much info about different 805s so I may go for PSVane Acmes. As for 300Bs the one thing most people seem to agree on is that between cheaper/mid-priced and the more costly tubes it makes most sense to just go for the expensive ones. No secrets here it seems. So the question is which exact model and I´m still not sure. WE (new production), Takatsuki or Elrog? Well, well... I´m favouring the Elrog, maybe just because I tend to support the underdogs. And after some production hiccups some years ago the current tubes seem to be reliable and they give a 1 year warranty too. (When it comes to this the 5 year warranty given by WE is a very good argument as well.) Did anyone have a chance to compare Elrogs with other 300Bs?
Aside from all the tube talk I must say that I´m still very happy with the amp and the prospect of improving the sound even further is thrilling to say the least. I listend to records by Matthew Halsall and 700 bliss today and was very pleased with how well they both sounded even though they are sonically pretty different. Overall I still could do with a wee bit less treble but that´s nitpicking, really.
|
@chmaiwald
Thanks for taking the time to provide an update. I’m happy that this amplifier purchase has worked out so well for you. With the 805/300b combo circuit, this will provide beautiful music reproduction for many years of enjoyment.
Charles
|
The build quality on that amp looks impressive. I think some Chinese made audio gear has some real negative stigma attached to it. I have a Line magnetic amp and it sounds very good.
|
I don´t know if it will be of use for anyone here, but I was asked if I can send someone the manual. So I scanned it, along with some more infosheets that it came with, and you can download a PDF below. It´s far from comprehensive but sufficient for a dummy like me.
|
Great thread with open minded and insightful comments.
I had to do it! I just bought one of these amps. I’ll be posting about it once it arrives and I can break it in. I’ll most likely upgrade some critical film caps. I’d like to examine the filter caps on the B+. But all that should wait until I put it through its paces.
I am very excited to try this amp out. I’ve had some nice tube amps in my room over the last 8 years so this will be fun.
|
Concerning tube cost in the old days, I found a 1970 Radio Shack catalog online. 12AX7 tubes were $2.70 each and EL84s were $3.55. The higher power outputs had to be ordered, but were probably still in the same relative price range. So, yup, things are a bit more expensive these days.
|
@jbhiller
Nice move and congratulations!
I look forward to reading your listening impressions.
Charles
|
Thank you @charles1dad . I'll try to hold off on tube rolling or cap swaps until I get it fully broken in and so that my ears acclimate to the sound first.
|
@mlsstl Even considering that 1970s $2.70 is about $20.70 in today's money, that´s quite an increase. I guess I´m far from alone wishing I had started getting into this a long while ago.
@jbhiller Congratulations! It´s a nice piece of gear, that is inviting you to get the most out of it. I´m curious what your experience will be, rolling tubes and changing caps.
|
@chmaiwald , DHL just texted it will arrive 12/19! Early Christmas gift. I should get some great time to listen to it over the holidays.
I'll hold off on rolling or mods for a good bit. Very excited!
|
@jbhiller
👍
I look forward to your listening impressions.
Charles
|
@charles1dad
Have you heard anything about the new Coincident Frankenstein 300b stereo amp for $2500? Seems like a nice value….
|
The Willsenton amp seems to also offer great value. The bones of the amp look to be good especially for the price.
|
@grannyring
My knowledge of it is limited to what’s on their website.It uses different driver and rectifier tubes from the Frankensteins mono blocks and share a power transformer. My gut feeling tells me it is very good however. Israel Blume won’t present a new product unless he believes that it is worthy.
Charles
|
|
@jbhiller
Did you order it from Amazon or China Hi-Fi? Seems really fast.))
|
I ordered it direct from China Hi-Fi. You can select your voltage there. I’ve some decent experiences in the past with them. I’ve also ordered from Doge Audio--super fast shipping to our mainland in a crate via DHL.
|
The R800i 805 arrived today. What a big amp! Here are just a few initial thoughts.
Moving this amp in the box is a two person affair. It is a beast
Moving It. My friend had to bolt so I had to move it out of the box and onto a 36" tall space where it would sit all by myself. I was able to lift it solo, but I wouldn't want to move it across the room by myself. Something to note and think about.
Build Quality. The first thing I noticed was the build quality. I used to own a top of the line Primaluna Dialogue HP integrated. If anyone is questioning whether the unit looks hokey or cheap in person, throw that aside. Same thing if we question whether it feels solid--it feels amazing. Everything about the build quality look, touch, sensory is as good or better than the Primaluna. (My personal opinion is I like its look better and it feels better). Note: I haven't opened it up yet and won't for a bit so I cannot comment on what's inside.
The VU meters remind me a bit of Cary tube products--a lovely darker blue. The power, volume and control source switches are beefy and have a nice tactile feel feel when you move them.
Sound Quality. I have only had it running under an hour. The first 30 minutes or so it sounded good but strained a touch in the midrange. Oddly, I thought the midrange is where this guy shines though. After it warmed up for about a half hour, it came into a nice stride. I'm only playing CDs right now during break in. I'll retook up my Roon NUC streaming situation for high res digital later. I'll also hook up my Manley Chinook phono stage and Technics 1200 GAE turntable with Benz Micro LPS cartridge later too.
My first thoughts on sound is clarity, presence, and space. It does a great job of making a holographic picture, which keeps enlarging as I warm it up/break it in. As I type this, my head pops up to hear some great holographic soundstage, warmth, and (again) clarity. The midrange is very seductive to say the least.
Another initial thought I'm having, after it got a good 45 minutes under its belt, is that the instruments have that "more instrumenty" sound I get with the 300B. Yet the 300B runs out of gas sooooo quickly.
Operation. I'm a bit confused about the biasing of the big 805 power tubes. The manual says the following:
"How to adjust the bias of 805A and 845?
805 adjust bias data refers to: 120ma"
Yet the 805s came biased at about 105. I bumped them up (with no source and volume at 0) to 110 and it started to feel that the bias adjustment screw was running out of room.
I "think" the manual may be saying to keep the 805s biased <120ma. At any rate, I turned the bias down to 90ma even and the midrange smoothed out and bass came on with more tuneful authority. I guess I will leave it at 90ma for now.
I'm very intrigued by what I'm hearing. I've owned tube amps before and have built a few. I hated to sell the Primaluna but it just didn't match with my Cornwall IVs as well as other amps (Elekit 300B, Carver Crimson 275, Marantz KI Ruby). I know some love that pairing, but it always felt a bit bloated and the holography was not there. This amp has that in spades. Out of the box it's better (in this system to me) than the more expensive Primaluna. I recall that I reluctantly sold the PL because it just didn't win my private shootouts either on a short or long term basis. Loved that amp and the company though.
So, like all of us I can be a victim of confirmation bias or warming up to a new sound signature. That said, I try to be very honest with myself and trust my ears. This amp sounds like it's going to be winner. It also looks super cool in my space.
I may not leave the house for a couple of weeks!
|
PS--I want to be extra fair to my Primaluna; while I found other amps paired better with the Cornwall IVs, I adored the Primaluna with modern speakers--in particular PSB Imagine T3s and T2s.
|
@jbhiller
It is good to read that your very early listening experience is quite positive. That’s a very encouraging sign. This amplifier hasn’t even begun to burn-in yet. The sound will only further improve from this juncture. Keep us posted.
Charles
|
Always good to see you chiming in Charles1dad!
At some point, I'll be curious about your views on coupling caps and tube rolling. I have trouble leaving mediocre caps in place that link to the speaker outputs, BUT I need to patient and get a feel for this guy.
|
@chmaiwald , Where are you biasing those big kid 805s? The manual is vague with nebulous statements about biasing. I'm no stranger to hifi gear coming from China so this is not my first go around with translating Mandarin (likely) to English.
Do you you have your 805s running at 120 ma? It scares me to crank them that high. Currently, I'm at 90 and the sound is big and fat with enough definition to sound live. Granted my speakers resolve well to sound like live music but not state of the art.
|
@jbhiller Good to hear that the amp arrived and is leaving a good first impression. As I said before, I have nothing much to compare it with and it´s good to hear already that the sound it produces is nice right from the start. Also: You also own Cornwall IVs, so that´s even better for me when you talk about all the sound details.
Some of the tubes it comes with are really good. I have to roll back so to speak to really compare, I started exchanging very early. But from what I hear the JJ in the 12AX7 slot is really good, and from my own experience I can say that russian produced NOS 6SN7s can produce sound equally pleasing to the Sylvania GTBs I also own. But the quality varies and I hope yours came with a good pair. Both pairs of 300B and 805 should PSVane Hifi, so not bad either.
The sloppily translated manual says: „805 adjust bias data refers to: 120mA“, I took it as a recommendation to have the 805s running at 120mA. It´s not been a problem to turn the screw to get them there. Apart from that there are also no other problems or signs that tell me I shouldn´t.
ps: Only yesterday I learned (= read online) that JJ is using the old machinery used for producing Telefunken ECC83s. So that´s a good sign.
|
@jbhiller
At some point, I'll be curious about your views on coupling caps and tube rolling. I have trouble leaving mediocre caps in place that link to the speaker outputs, BUT I need to patient and get a feel for this guy.
Getting familiar with the sound and character of the new amplifier and exercising patience, agree. Once you have established a good feel for your amplifier then you can decide what it is you want to sonically modify or tune via capacitors and tubes.
At this initial stage you already like what you are hearing. And based on your description this is a solid and well-built amplifier, with a good foundation for future upgrades. You’ll be able to transition from good sound to very good/excellent sound with wise capacitor and tube changes. You’re in a good place.😊
Charles
|
@jbhiller
Congrats on your new amp, wish I was still in the area to hear it in action.
Given your amp history - Carver Crimson, Marantz Ruby - I would have thought the HiFi Rose would be the next logical step?😀
|
