So I bought the Willsenton R-800i

FYI Chmaiwald, Linlai sells an intro 805 for $165 a matched pair (see that link above). 

correction--it may have been more than just two radio songs. I think Bob Ludwig may have remixed most of the album. 

@chmaiwald , Do you think the Cossor 805 is better than the factory 805 ?

I'm so done with my R800i.  China Hifi no longer responds to me. 

They shipped me two new bias boards as my right side pot was going nuts.  I opened the unit up to install them. Guess what?  The one on the left is a relatively painless surgery. The one on the right?  I simply cannot figure out how to do it without taking the amp apart. I mean significant deconstruction.  

What's more, the through holes on the PCB are only big enough for like 28 gauge wire. It looks like they just (somehow) soldered the wire to the top of the through hole.  

There are some good quality components in there, but when I looked at the big 1000v electrolytics, they are no-name junk that I cannot even locate online.  

This amp is far from a piece of junk. But I question parts quality now and design layout.  Further, I question having and amp 1000 v on the plates of the 805s if (a) customer service stinks; (b) design choices are wonky; etc. 

I hate having to write this. Your mileage may vary. For me, this feels like a 100lb paperweight now.  I'm not sure I want to even take it in and put money into it.  

Oh, China Hifi refuses to give me a name of their authorized US repair vendor(s).  Terrible. 

Great thread with open minded and insightful comments.

I had to do it! I just bought one of these amps. I’ll be posting about it once it arrives and I can break it in. I’ll most likely upgrade some critical film caps. I’d like to examine the filter caps on the B+. But all that should wait until I put it through its paces.

I am very excited to try this amp out. I’ve had some nice tube amps in my room over the last 8 years so this will be fun.

Thank you @charles1dad .  I'll try to hold off on tube rolling or cap swaps until I get it fully broken in and so that my ears acclimate to the sound first. 

@chmaiwald , DHL just texted it will arrive 12/19!  Early Christmas gift.  I should get some great time to listen to it over the holidays. 

I'll hold off on rolling or mods for a good bit. Very excited!

Charles1dad, you are correct--it's a lot of amp for the money.  Good to see you around these parts. You have a keen appreciation for our hobby and I always like hearing what you have to say. 

I ordered it direct from China Hi-Fi. You can select your voltage there. I’ve some decent experiences in the past with them. I’ve also ordered from Doge Audio--super fast shipping to our mainland in a crate via DHL.

PS--I want to be extra fair to my Primaluna;  while I found other amps paired better with the Cornwall IVs, I adored the Primaluna with modern speakers--in particular PSB Imagine T3s and T2s. 

The R800i 805 arrived today.  What a big amp!  Here are just a few initial thoughts. 

Moving this amp in the box is a two person affair.  It is a beast

Moving It.  My friend had to bolt so I had to move it out of the box and onto a 36" tall space where it would sit all by myself.  I was able to lift it solo, but I wouldn't want to move it across the room by myself.  Something to note and think about. 

Build Quality.  The first thing I noticed was the build quality.  I used to own a top of the line Primaluna Dialogue HP integrated. If anyone is questioning whether the unit looks hokey or cheap in person, throw that aside.  Same thing if we question whether it feels solid--it feels amazing.  Everything about the build quality look, touch, sensory is as good or better than the Primaluna. (My personal opinion is I like its look better and it feels better).  Note: I haven't opened it up yet and won't for a bit so I cannot comment on what's inside. 

The VU meters remind me a bit of Cary tube products--a lovely darker blue. The power, volume and control source switches are beefy and have a nice tactile feel  feel when you move them.  

Sound Quality.  I have only had it running under an hour.  The first 30 minutes or so it sounded good but strained a touch in the midrange.  Oddly, I thought the midrange is where this guy shines though.  After it warmed up for about a half hour, it came into a nice stride.   I'm only playing CDs right now during break in. I'll retook up my Roon NUC streaming situation for high res digital later. I'll also hook up my Manley Chinook phono stage and Technics 1200 GAE turntable with Benz Micro LPS cartridge later too. 

My first thoughts on sound is clarity, presence, and space.  It does a great job of making a holographic picture, which keeps enlarging as I warm it up/break it in.  As I type this, my head pops up to hear some great holographic soundstage, warmth, and (again) clarity.  The midrange is very seductive to say the least. 

Another initial thought I'm having, after it got a good 45 minutes under its belt, is that the instruments have that "more instrumenty" sound I get with the 300B. Yet the 300B runs out of gas sooooo quickly. 

Operation.  I'm a bit confused about the biasing of the big 805 power tubes.  The manual says the following: 

"How to adjust the bias of 805A and 845? 

805 adjust bias data refers to: 120ma"

Yet the 805s came biased at about 105.  I bumped them up (with no source and volume at 0) to 110 and it started to feel that the bias adjustment screw was running out of room. 

I "think" the manual may be saying to keep the 805s biased <120ma.  At any rate, I turned the bias down to 90ma even and the midrange smoothed out and bass came on with more tuneful authority.  I guess I will leave it at 90ma for now.  

I'm very intrigued by what I'm hearing.  I've owned tube amps before and have built a few.  I hated to sell the Primaluna but it just didn't match with my Cornwall IVs as well as other amps (Elekit 300B, Carver Crimson 275, Marantz KI Ruby). I know some love that pairing, but it always felt a bit bloated and the holography was not there.  This amp has that in spades. Out of the box it's better (in this system to me) than the more expensive Primaluna.  I recall that I reluctantly sold the PL because it just didn't win my private shootouts either on a short or long term basis.  Loved that amp and the company though. 

So, like all of us I can be a victim of confirmation bias or warming up to a new sound signature. That said, I try to be very honest with myself and trust my ears. This amp sounds like it's going to be winner.  It also looks super cool in my space. 

I may not leave the house for a couple of weeks!  

Always good to see you chiming in Charles1dad!  

At some point, I'll be curious about your views on coupling caps and tube rolling.  I have trouble leaving mediocre caps in place that link to the speaker outputs, BUT I need to patient and get a feel for this guy.  

@chmaiwald , Where are you biasing those big kid 805s?  The manual is vague with nebulous statements about biasing.  I'm no stranger to hifi gear coming from China so this is not my first go around with translating Mandarin (likely) to English. 

Do you you have your 805s running at 120 ma?  It scares me to crank them that high. Currently, I'm at 90 and the sound is big and fat with enough definition to sound live. Granted my speakers resolve well to sound like live music but not state of the art. 

@chmaiwald , thank you!!  I should note (for whatever it might be worth) that I "upgraded" the crossover networks in the Cornwall IVs, damped the horn mid and horn tweeter, and installed proper binding posts.  Some may hear a difference some may not.  I used high quality Cardas solder, VCap ODOM caps throughout, Path Audio resistors, and some decent binding posts from Partsconnexion.  I did not change any values/tolerances with the swapped parts. 

Also chmaiwald, I think you are spot on about the bias setting. Strangely, biasing it at ~90ma, as opposed to 120ma, did not result in things sounding sluggish, slow, or out of place.  

@charles1dad,  you are wise.  I have always enjoyed your feedback and guidance.  There are folks on here that seem to want to litigate everything--you seem to be the opposite and are always helping and sharing knowledge! Thank you!

@djspinner , you are correct! I hate to admit it. I'm guilty of making too many lateral moves.  Maybe I just sell all these amps and buy a Jadis or Japanese tube amp!  But my goal is not to have a big collection but rather find different pieces to allow different "sonic meals" if you will.  No piece of gear is really ever perfect so I like to experiment and have different presentations. 

Last night's listening session went way too late! 2:30 am.  

@djspinner, you're welcome to pop by if you are in the Chicago area!  

I swapped the 300Bs for a broken in pair of Electro Harmonix 300Bs.  I can still only get the 300Bs to bias to about 105ma. Hmmmm...

I didn't swap the 805s or 6SN7s yet.  I threw the 300Bs in just to see.  Quite frankly, it sounds great biased at just over 100ma.  I'll reach out to China Hifi next week. 

I just rolled in a pair of Philco- Sylvania 6SN7GTBs and noticed that Willsenton put silkscreening of its name on the stock tubes. On closer inspection they are 6H8C Russian tubes--pretty similar to what Schitt was shipping with its Freya preamp.  Good tube!  

Hey @chmaiwald , I've been there!  I had a Primaluna that could take a host of power tubes. I rolled, and rolled, and.... I got so lost but in the end I did figure out the takeaways. 

One thing that I learned was to listen to each tube swap and give them a fair chance.  It's easy to like something because it cost more or is highly reviewed. But everything is system, room, and listener dependent. I have a lot of 6 Cifte 12au7s (French military) that were very pricey--~$120 a tube.  They are amazing, yet in my system at that time I didn't need more air on top and things got to be too much.  Great tube to waken an overly warm or too thick tube system. 

I learned this again with my Manley Chinook phono stage.  There's nothing wrong (and soooo much right) with Electro Harmonix 6922s, which Manley uses in the stock units. For several years I neglected those tubes and created a stock pile of NOS stuff.  When I went back to the EHs a couple years later, I realized why Manley selected them--very quiet, full spectrum equality, and so on.

As to the Willsenton, my early opinion is the 300Bs are of great quality. They are drivers too so they aren't going to be as noticeable to most of us.  The 805s--I'm not sure on these. The Russian version of 6sn7 are good but pretty bright and highlight the midrange focus of the amp. In my system, they are a touch too much.  

So, the only current "roll" I have going on is Philco- Sylvania 6SN7GTBs.  They sound great!

@chmaiwald , GREAT write up. Thank you very much.  I know everything is system dependent and subjective but I'm going to pause on buying Cossair 300Bs based on what you say--may not be worth it.  

Also, fyi, I run two subs with CW IVs. You are correct in that CWIVs are not bass monsters despite their size.  I love the sound of two subs tailored into the lower octave only.  

Finally, I heard back from China Hifi today.  They said that 120ma is the maximum you should bias the amp. They have no recommendations on what's ideal. They said that 100 ma (where mine maxes out with full bias) is fine and you can go lower.  

As such, 120 ma is the limit.  Your mileage may vary, but you may want to turn your bias down from 120 to (a) see how it sounds) and (b) avoid running the power tubes so hot to save life.  

My Carver Crimson has a recommended top end bias of about 100 ma, but Bob Carver says he likes the sound best at around 80ma.  Interesting. 

At any rate, the manual uses ambiguous language and I have now confirmed that 120ma is not the recommended bias setting but the maximum bias setting a user should use. 

Chmaiwald,  I'm wondering if the stock 805s in the Willsenton R800i 805 are actually Linlai tubes. The reason I think that is some Linlai tubes, and their 805s, have a star shape at the top of the tube structure.  

Take a look at the photos here of Linlai 805 offerings and there's a star at the top: 

https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/product-category/shop_by_tube_model/805/

Do yours look this way? 

Interesting!

I'm still getting familiar with the amp. I've been listening to gear for decades so I'm pretty humble--I know that I need to really know the gear before I can truly say what's going on with real confidence. 

I think the tubes they ship this thing with are very, very good.  The Russian 6sn7 are pretty great.  They have big, deep and well defined bass.  

The cost of 300Bs and 805s is making me think it might be better to upgrade the capacitors in key locations. That said, you cannot tell what make they are due to the wrapping Willsenton puts on them.  Many manufacturers do this.  And, it's not always a sign they totally cheaped out.  I'm thinking that dumping $200-$500 on the two caps linked to the gain stage/6sn7s will make the most difference. That's a reasonable figure compared to upgrading the driver 300bs.  

For now, I'm still running this guy in and enjoying every minute.  This is a special amp indeed. 

I have an audiophile buddy coming over tomorrow to let him have at it.  I respect his opinion.  My ears are telling me this is a near reference level amp. 

Even with reduced labor costs, I don't know how Willsenton's margins can be that high given the parts quality. 

Status Update -

I'm 3 weeks into owning this amplifier.  It's a problem; on the days I'm not in the office or on the road (which has only been 2 during the holiday period), I'm getting little work done because I'm constantly listening to music!

I'm going to estimate that I'm 150-175 hours into this amplifier and things should be fairly run in by now. 

Please note that I'm in a fairly good size room (23' long x 16.5' wide x 10' tall).  I use efficient speakers (Klipsch Cornwalls--modified crossovers (only upgraded).  I've had a few amazing late night vinyl sessions (Technics 1200GAE, Benz Micro LPS/Kiseki Purpleheart/Dynavector X20 or something, Manley Chinook). But, most of my listening has been using a Roon endpoint (Intel NUC) feeding a Marantz Ruby DAC/SACD player voiced by Ken Ishiwata.  

The amp reveals details that I haven't had in my room with other tube amps.  Even my Elekit 300B (with Lundhaul transformers and VCaps) doesn't do what this guy can do.  

One of the particular characteristics of the sound with this pairing is the size of the sound image.  It is downright massive.  I've never complained I needed more holography or a bigger picture. Sure, who wouldn't want more?  With the Willsenton 800/805 the height of the sound seems to reach up towards the ceiling.  With certain production, the sound can start to wrap around me a bit from the side walls. It's quite something to experience.  

The low end is so nicely defined and plump that I can easily tune my two REL subs right into where the Cornwalls start to drop off (probably upper 30hz if I had to guess).  As a hobbyist musician, I have developed a decent ear figuring out songs and tones. This amp allows me to walk right up to the RELs and dial in the crossover and volume so easily and the resulting sound sounds seamless to me. Seamless.  So I should qualify, if you believe the above is possible and can sound great (the subs do NOT sound like separate instruments), my opinions of the amp are probably bolstered in the favorable direction because I've never been able to tweak the subs this well and I'm confident they were dialed in pretty nicely before. 

The midrange clarity can make my head turn like my dog's when she hears something unexpected.  It's caused me to listen more and more and more again.

I honestly could not be happier with this amplifier.  I'd pay twice the price for it. It's taken a bit of the Cornwall's watercolor-level of detail and tightened it up --yet not to a level that sounds like boring hifi.  It still sounds like live or the real thing...just more so. 

The power of the amp is a really sweet match for my room and setup.  I've never been happiest with low power SET amps and these speakers because even though I don't usually listen all that loud, I have had trouble getting an 8 watt 300B amp to make them open up.  I had a Primaluna Dialogue HP integrated that sounded best with KT150s and these speakers but it never romanced me (great amp though).  A Carver Crimoson 275 did a better job of adding some harmonic magic.  I adore a Ken Ishiwata voiced Marantz Ruby (shocked me as it is Marantz's own Class D topology), which sounds lovely and brawny with the CW IVs.  

But alas, the Willsenton R800 has been the ticket for me.  I don't know if I could otherwise afford to get to this place without it. Would I be looking a Shindo, Jadis, Triode Labs?  Soooo pricey--maybe someday.  

I really thought that I'd be itching to upgrade the power supply filtering film caps and the coupling caps.  I doubt the Willsenton re-badged caps are junk and I'd bet they are something fairly decent. Whomever voiced this amp did a wonderful job. 

I cannot recommend trying this amp out enough for yourself.  I wish I had more speakers around right now to play with so I could report differences.  I only have a pile of electronics right now in what my wife calls "the museum."   Nonetheless, I'm content to just keep listening. 

I want to shake the hand of the engineers and people who made this amp.  

I have just one nit to pick-- the remote, while I love it's feel and simplicity, makes too big of jumps in volume attenuation or increase with the motorized pot. Oh well. 

If anyone is in the Chicagoland area and doesn't have Craigslist-Killer sensibilities, you're welcome to PM me to swing by for a listen.  

@chmaiwald , Wow, I went back and listened to that Neurosis album. I wouldn't blame the amp for how this album sounds. The production seems intentionally nasty heavy. I don't listen to much metal or heavy punk though. Also, I'm in the minority camp on Steve Albini. I don't enjoy his production as much as others.  I always found it interesting that Nirvana held back their two radio hits on In Utero from Albini.  I think (sometimes) his engineering and production sound muddy and confused but that's just me.

I understand, I think, what you are saying about stuff sounding better when music is simpler (less going on). That's kind of a truism for all systems on some level. 

Do you use a subwoofer system?  The reason I ask is it can provide depth of soundstage and allow the highs to sounds more delineated and less harsh--just by filling out the lowest octave.  The CW IVs are not really a big bass speaker despite their size. 

@chmaiwald , I highly recommend REL's T line.  Very persuasive, musical subs.  

Zerung, glad to hear you picked one of these up and like it.  It does sound like you bought the 845 version, is that right? 

The 805 version of the 800 is now out of stock-no longer available at China HiFi and the wait on Amazon ticked up to 4-5 weeks. I'm not surprised. 

@chmaiwald , I wonder if the 800 has the same design issue as the R8--Skunkie Designs found that it was missing a resistor on the bias pots.  If the pot wiper gets sticky or otherwise malfunctions, it could let full bias hit the tube and blow it.  

This is giving me incentive to flip my 100lb beast over and open her up to have a look.  I have been lazy. I don't want to lift it and I'm not motivated to find my little tool I use to bleed volts off of the capacitors before poking around. 

For those of us 800i 805 owners with high efficiency speakers, have you tried running a lower gain 12 volt tube in the 12ax7 slot?  I found the 805 wattage to keep my volume limited to about 9:30 o'clock or lower. I switched down to a 12au7 (substantially less gain) and things opened up a bit.  Very cool. I've done this before with varied results. Here, I like what I hear!

I'm going to open mine up soon.  It has to be done. 

I’m sorry to hear folks have significant audible hum.  That’s frustrating. 
 

I have almost zero hum. I have to put my ear right above the transformer and it’s barely audible still. I think the transformer is potted. 
 

Have you sent a video of the hum to China Hifi?  I’d do that. They may be able to help.  I’d ask them if the transformer is potted too. 
 

I’ll look inside at the transformer when I open the unit up. 

I run Klipsch Heritage Cornwall IVs with the 800i 805 and it's near dead silent. Plus, if it were a transformer hum, the efficiency of your speakers may not matter--it would put that noise into the room without the speakers. 

Since you are running super efficient speakers, you could try going down from the 12ax7 to a 12au7 (that's the lowest gain in that 12 volt tube variety).

120mA is not the ideal bias point. It is the max bias. I contacted the company to confirm this. The manual is ambiguous in this regard. I find 80-110 mA to be good. 

One of my bias pots failed me. The company mailed me two new ones. The surgery to the one side is simple, yet the surgery to the other is a pain. 

Overall, the amp is well built labor wise. Parts quality is questionable. Electrolytic caps are Chinese. 

I've communicated with Skunkie about going through the unit. She's open to it but she's not jazzed about the 1000v on the plates. And, shipping my unit from Chicagoland to Atlanta would be a fortune.