Careful with the tube rolling!! I started with the Willsenton 300i 845, great amp for the money, and now have three SE tube amps and a hybrid tube pre w/ class AB power output AND have amassed a collection of over 300 tubes for the four amps! i run Klipsch Forte IIIs and Focal 926s with the Willsenton and a Klipsch 12in 300 watt sub wired off the speaker terminals. The Forte’s love the Willsenton, but only at 9 o’clock max on volume pot, I can get the Focals to 10 o’clock. Clearly there is serious umph and headroom with the Willsenton’s 23 wpc. I believe the 805 is north of 40 wpc.
Replaced the 300b with new production Gold Lions 300bX, much smoother, more detail and greater linearity up and down the frequency spectrum. Replaced the 845s with Shuguang 845B, same result, more detail, warmth and greater soundstage. Great upgrades for the money, although I wouldn’t call the Gold Lions cheap at $450/pair. The Shuguangs were about $250 plus shipping. Likely won’t be purchasing new or old WEs or vintage RCAs, just way too $$.
BTW china-hifi told me stock tubes are LinLia hifi series. Not bad, but not great. The stock 6sn7s are actually 6H8C Novisbirisk, and the 12ax7 is a JJ from the the old Check Tesla factory in Slovenia.
Now, on to the pre-stage; 12AX7 i agree the Tele’s are great tubes, have both ribbed and smooth plate, smooth plate definitely superior, smoother, more detail and greater soundstage. IMO however the Amperex Holland Bugle Boy beats the Teles with more air, detail and soundstage hight, not cheap but you should try and find one of these. Also have Blackburn Mullards, RFTs, Russian and Chinese Gold Lions, GE, RCA, anf Raytheon black plate. Bugles #1, Tele #2, and Mullard #3.
You should also look at trying a12AT7, lower gain but like I’ve experienced, the Willsenton has tons of headroom. Have Teles, Mullards, Bugle Boys, Sylvania, Brimar, Westinghouse and a real sleeper, RCA black plate, think I paid $15 for it. Warm, smooth, a little rolled off on the top but a beautiful sounding tube.
On to the 6SN7, have Sylvania's, Tung Sols, Russian Fotons (cheap great all rounders), Raytheons, GEs, RCAs. CBS Hytron’s, GTs, GTAs, and GTBs. By far the best are the Sylvania GTs from early 50s, two hole or three. Bass, mids, treble extension and clarity. Next would be the Tung Sol GTAWs, followed by Sylvania and Tung Sol GTB FAA issues. The Tung Sols are a little more gritty, the Sylvania’s a touch warmer Sleepers are the Hytron GTs from 1954, a superb linear tube with great tonality.
Rectifierers do make a difference due to differences in voltage drop and how the amp (and rest of tubes) react to various DC voltages. I’m fond of the Svetlana 5U4C black plate (over the gray plate), followed by the RCA smooth black plate. Also try a 5AR4, Mullard ($$) or another great option is the new issue Gold Lion. You’ll find the speed of mids and bass tighter with the 5AR4, less rolled off high end.
Obviously personal preference, type of music, your room, and heck, even your mood can dictate what sounds best on any given day. Early mornings with my Inspire KT88 running St Pete Svets and Anouar Brahem through the Klipsch (no sub) vs an evening with a glass of wine (left bank all the way), Klipsch and Joss Stone or CSNY vs a stiff bourbon, Jason Aldean and the Focals blaring Night Train are all different, but equally wonderful!
Music can stir the soul, happy listening!
Cheers,
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Thanks for sharing your experience! As you say, music can stir the soul and I feel the amp helps to do it. Now that you mentioned it, I have to listen to Anouar Brahem again. The three ECM records I own are all great, the standout for me being „The Astounding Eyes of Rita“ – what a gem and great evening listening. I find myself drawn more and more to this kind of music, which conveys a sense of relaxedness, soulfulness, experience. The style is not that important, it can be this, it can be rock music (I adore Yo La Tengo), ambient, classical or other. I guess it´s a good sign this speaks to me and I don´t need cathartic relief as often as I used to. But a well recorded wall of sound is also no problem for the R800i.
This tube rolling sure is a black hole thing. I´m far from having that many tubes and I´m very happy with the tubes I own but I keep my eyes and ears open to what people say sounds nice and every now and then get something new (or new old).
For now I´m really happy with the Teles but some local audioguy came across a box of unused RFT ECC83s, I´m curious how they perform. And there´s still Brimar, Valvo and Mullard to check out. But I´m not in a hurry with that.
I did try the Mullard 12AX7 (CV4024) but I didn´t find it to be very engaging so I´m not following that route for now. (I always have to say „for now“ when it comes to these things, I know myself...)
In the 6SN7 slot I´ve lately been using Sylvania VT-231s and wow, they are really good. They are military GTs (I think) and are supposed to sound a lot like the regular GTs or the well-regarded GTAs. So, yes, I agree, they´re really, really good. Also there´s a variety of Fotons with a squareish getter that extends in a right angle that is supposed to be a tad better than the regular ones. I own these and tried them, they sound nice, but I have to find the time to do another direct comparison. With the prices for NOS these days the Fotons are a high quality bargain and the right angle-getter ones also don´t cost a fortune (I paid about 30€ for a pair).
The Svetlana 5U4Cs with black paltes have become a kind of sensation and I´m also very happy with the ones I own. They just don´t seem to last very long, I read about quite a few giving up after just a few hundred hours. One question: Does yours light up a bit when you start up the amp? I read contradictory things about that: Some say it´s a sign they are on their way out and you should replace it soon while others say it´s part of the show. My current one does does show something like a tiny blue flame for a brief moment, but it´s done this almost from the beginning and it´s running fine. Maybe I´m playing with fire, who knows.
All the best!
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Hi,
I have two of VEB Rohrenwerk Neuhaus GDR NOS ECC83s, very similar to the RFTs, same collective ownership as RFT back in the day of communist East Germany. They are noisy in my Willsenton, with higher hum coming from the Forte's which are 99dB. I believe the Cornwall's are 102 dB so I'd think you'd get even higher noise with RFTs. They sound a lot like the stock JJ 12AX7, a bit "hard," not as warm or engaging as some of the other NOS 9 pins, e.g., Tele, Amperex, Mullard, RCA, etc. I also have a set of VEB and RFT EL34s for another small SET amp, and they sound excellent, as good as Tesla's but not as sweet as St. Pete Svetlana EL34s.
Don't know if you've experienced the hum issue with your Willsenton. It's not a ground loop, I've troubleshot that, not the issue. The hum is volume independent (adjusting up or down doesn't impact hum level). I've played with the hum adjuster, put a DC filter on the power cord (to avoid DC looping back to the power transformer), experimented with lifting the ground, etc, etc and still have a bit of hum at idle regardless of the tube compliment. It's basically the mechanical transformer noise making its way to the speakers. China-hifi said it is normal with the amp. Some 12AX7s are louder than others, and the 12AT7s are quieter overall.
My Dennis Had Inspire KT88 Firebottle has zero hum coming from the Klipsch, so I know it's possible to build a dead quite amp (requires much higher quality transformers, i.e., more expensive). The Inspire is a different build than the Willsenton (completely by hand, no PCB board, custom wound transformers and highest quality caps and resistors) and only has 10 wpc. I've read numerous places that the bigger, stronger the amp, the more mechanical noise it will generate.
Anyway, I found the VEBs humming too much for my taste. The 12AT7's hum less across the board due to lower gain, 60 mu vs 100 with 12AX7;'s. That being said, the Telefunken smooth plate AX7 is very quite, as is the Amperex BB, the Mullard and the Russian Gold Lion 12AX7 (which BTW can act as a great reference tube, I've found the entire Gold Lion series to be very clear, clean and crisp, and linear with excellent bass that is tight. I have a set of KT88s, KT77s for the Inspire, and 300b's and the 12AX7 for the Willsenton).
The RFTs are cheaper, but I would encourage you to save up and go for the Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7 or 12AT7 (make sure you get Holland build, not France or GB), you'll get low noise (hum), very clear, clean and crisp highs with extended soundstage (more height), AND good bass with warm mids. The BB is just a bit "brighter" up top than the Tele smooth plate, meaning more detail, cleaner treble extension. Subtle but distinctive.
And yes my Svet 5U4C BP "pops" a little purple blue color/light on top when fired up, looks really cool and I've read it is normal, nothing to worry about, doesn't mean tube is on it's way out or anything. I also have the gray plate version of the Svet, and it doesn't "pop" on turn on. I also have a set of Svet 6550s for the Inspire that glow blue when warmed up for 30 mins or so...very cool look. Also normal and doesn't mean anything. None of the Gold Lions or any other tube for that matter glow blue in the Willsenton, but boy do the 845s get hot! I added a slim, quite fan that sits nicely on top of the transformer and tube cage to keep my AC bill down!
Regards
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I do experience the hum issue as well and I don´t know if it´s been there from the beginning or not, at least I noticed only after quite a while. After checking all possible component, cables, tubes etc. I also blame it on the tranformer. When I listen closely that´s also the place where it seems to come from. Unfortunately it´s louder with the Elrog 300Bs I´ve been using. Great tubes, but the hum is, well, it´s there. And it´s bothering me to the point where I found it difficult to listen to music. Well, having said that it´s still in the range where my girlfriend just shrugs, it´s basically not noticeable when music place (except for very quiet parts). There was some other issue with them and I´m waiting for a replacement pair, maybe that will change something.
I guess with that hum issue we´re entering real high end territory. If all parts are high qualtiy it just costs more. Considering value for money the R800i is hard to beat.
The RFTs would be really cheap, like under 10€ a piece, so I´d be ok with them not being a revelation.
Thanks for the info on the blue light in the 5U4C, that´s very helpful!
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I’m sorry to hear folks have significant audible hum. That’s frustrating.
I have almost zero hum. I have to put my ear right above the transformer and it’s barely audible still. I think the transformer is potted.
Have you sent a video of the hum to China Hifi? I’d do that. They may be able to help. I’d ask them if the transformer is potted too.
I’ll look inside at the transformer when I open the unit up.
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Have already contacted China HiFi, here’s their response, “ Vacuum tube power amplifier and transistor power amplifier are different. It's normal thatr hear the huming within 1-1.5m.” So…I believe it is a function of quality of parts, particularly the transformers, and implementation, i.e., the build. I’ve read the transformers are potted so not viable to upgrade with a mod.
I have about 700 hours on my 300i, and it’s gotten slightly worse with time on the amp. It’s much more noticeable with the 99 dB Klipsch Forte’s than the 92 dB Focal’s. I think it would be unacceptable with LaScalas. Yes, we’re beginning to migrate from really good mid-fi to more resolving, and expensive hi-fi! That being said, I’m happy with the Willsenton with its noise floor vs price. A high end build with much better parts would likely run $10k-$20k, depending on manufacturer. It comes down to system synergy, the 300i has enough headroom to push 85-90 dB speakers with ease, that would be one solution. Also with lower gain 12AT7s, I’ve found the hum isn’t noticeable at my seating position even between tracks. Roll in a noisy high gain 12AX7 and the hum returns.
As much as I hate to admit, Klipsch Heritage series may not be the best match for the Willsenton 300i. My Inspire KT88 is a match with the Klipsch , dead silent! Problem is Dennis only builds a dozen or less amps a year. At the moment he has a 300b SET on ebay for $4,250, it won’t last long, maybe 48 hours.
Anyway, glad I bought the Willsenton, great soundstage, deep bass, warm mids and crystal clear treble with the right pre stage tubes. Sitting here right now listening with low level volume, a touch of boost at certain frequencies with a Klark Teknik DN360 studio equalizer and loving the mellow yet articulate sound emanating from the Focals.
Cheers
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I run Klipsch Heritage Cornwall IVs with the 800i 805 and it's near dead silent. Plus, if it were a transformer hum, the efficiency of your speakers may not matter--it would put that noise into the room without the speakers.
Since you are running super efficient speakers, you could try going down from the 12ax7 to a 12au7 (that's the lowest gain in that 12 volt tube variety).
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New to the thread but not the Willsenton 800i. My amplifier creates no noticeable hum at what I consider normal listening volumes. My normal listening volume? Loud enough that you could, but wouldn't want to have a conversation. It would require some yelling.
I've rolled a few tubes in mine but I do want to say that this amplifier from the factory has a pretty good tube set in it. I think most would be 100% happy with how it sounds doing absolutely nothing to it. I also want to say that I purchased mine through China HiFi. Living in Boston, MA in the United States, DHL delivered the amplifier in 3 days after it was shipped!!! It took China HiFi 2 days to get it out the door. Outstanding!! The double boxing and packing materials were very well thought out and I'm not sure what else they could of done to safely ship it. Mine made it to my door safely.
Back to rolling tubes. I have bolstered the midrange, added some definition to the high end and didn't hurt the low end at all. I based my selections off of recommendations because this being my first tube amp I do not come from a place of experience. The 12AX7 is now a Telefunken ECC83 EK, I changed the 274B but never noticed any audible difference with the tube I tried. The 805A I installed a set of Linlai Gold Elite E-805 and the 300B, I tried both a WE300B by Psvane and Genelex Gold Lion match set. I settled with the Genelex tube because the additional $450 for the WE300Bs weren't worth the extra $$$. Though they both sounded differently I liked them both differently. And last but not least I installed a set of Shuguang Cv-181 Black Treasures in the 6SN7 spots. This may be the biggest improvement of anything.
Listening to voice forward recordings like Diana Krall's, When I look into your eyes, You feel her breath on the microphone. The holographic staging of the instruments is so defined. The realism of the piano as it plays from left to right across the room and cymbals that feel like you could reach out and mute them. It's very impressive. But them to spin Bridge of Sighs by Robin Trower, listening to Eye of the Eagle and Bridge of Sighs, it just blows me away how well it handles the 70s style rock guitar and Robin's almost horse voice then settles down to the heavy bass riff to end Eye of the eagle. The beginning of Bridge of sighs showing off it's holographic strengths ringing around you. Again, strong baselines, great rock guitar riffs and Robin's voice just showcased as not all amplifiers can. The songs never sounding muddy or straining. Somehow throwing all that music at you but not being tiring. Displaying details out of the albums I didn't hear before.
And all this through a set of 87db KEF R3 Meta and an SVS Micro 3000 sub. It's a fantastic tube amp!
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My friend let me borrow the r800i. I know you'll think im weird but I actually like it even better when I run my bottlehead moreplay into it (and NOT through the pre in). I know its like 2x pre amping but it just adds this tubeyness and richness which I really like. Maybe I need to roll the tubes not sure, currently have GE preamp tubes in it.
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@richl35
Actually, it was Jimmy Dewar singing on the Bridge of Sighs disc, including Day of the Eagle.
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@roxy54 Thanks for the info. Whomever it was, I absolutely love the music and it’s a fantastic recording!
BTW…. I have a couple Acme 805 tubes coming in tomorrow to listen to along with a Sophia Aqua 274B. The Sophia I bought the 805s are on loan unless I really like them. Will they be different/better than the Linlai Gold Elite tubes? We will see.
I also did something else that may not work out for me financially. I borrowed a set of ZU Audio, Omen Def Supreme towers. These things absolutely rock! I love how good they sound at low volumes. Fantastic speakers, for me anyway. I think they are very efficient and I can tell the Willsenton likes them. Likes them a lot!
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@richl35
I borrowed a set of ZU Audio, Omen Def Supreme towers. These things absolutely rock! I love how good they sound at low volumes. Fantastic speakers, for me anyway. I think they are very efficient and I hcan tell the Willsenton likes them. Likes them a lot!
The Zu speakers are fairly high sensitivity and more important (I believe) high ohm speaker impedance, so very easy to drive. Also less current demand and less distortion from amplifier. I can understand why they would pair well with the 805 SET amplifier.
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I've found the cj lp70s stages much bigger than the r800i but the focus and detail is better with the r800i. I did put in we300b linlai tubes. I would love the stage of cj and clarity of r800i.
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Perhaps a "shootout" is what you seek...
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@charles1dad The Zu Audio's are staying. I'm honestly not 100% sure what is making the greatest sound improvement when being driven by the Willsenton. Is it possible for a speaker to just sound so much more relaxed but yet very detailed at the same time? I'm guessing overall I prefer the sound of the ZU towers, but I think the amp is able to display so much more detail with such an easier speaker to drive. I'm really enjoying this combination.
As far as the tube rolling I will say the following. The Aqua 274 B from Sophia is a winner. I know it's just a rectifier tube but even my wife hears the difference. Playing 41 by Dave Matthews Band, the beginning of the song has a lot of cymbals and a horn coming in. It is just more lively with the Sophia. The cymbals are a little sharper and carry more realistically. This isn't a huge difference but it is noticeable going back and forth a couple times. The Acme 805A tubes for me were a wash. I really didn't notice a difference that I found better than the Linlai Gold Elite tubes I was already running. Those have already shipped back to the owner.
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@richl35
Congratulations!! You have obviously found a splendid amplifier and speaker pairing.👍
Charles
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@richl35 "much more relaxed but yet very detailed at the same time? "
Thats the holy grail imo !
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Has anyone tried to mod their r800i with better parts ?
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Also is 120 the best bias point ?
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There´s youtuber skunkie who did mods on another Willsenton amp. Some parts she improved, some issues needed to be fixed to make the whole thing more secure. Right now someone´s in talks with her to do the same with have a look at the R800i. Let´s see if she´ll accept.
The instruction says that 120 is the best bias point but I´ve heard of people going down to as low as 100. To be honest I forgot the background why they did it, if it was to drive the tubes less or if t (also) gave a sonic advantage.
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120mA is not the ideal bias point. It is the max bias. I contacted the company to confirm this. The manual is ambiguous in this regard. I find 80-110 mA to be good.
One of my bias pots failed me. The company mailed me two new ones. The surgery to the one side is simple, yet the surgery to the other is a pain.
Overall, the amp is well built labor wise. Parts quality is questionable. Electrolytic caps are Chinese.
I've communicated with Skunkie about going through the unit. She's open to it but she's not jazzed about the 1000v on the plates. And, shipping my unit from Chicagoland to Atlanta would be a fortune.
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My previous post about my "unbiasable" R800i: https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2493681
So, in searching for someone who can update my Audio Research LS-5 mkiii, I have also found someone who can take a look at my r800i...Scott Frankland...who came highly recommended by a member here who has an LS-5 and said Scott worked some magic on his unit: https://scottfrankland.com/
I have pinged Skunkie a few times, but she’s not fond of either the weight or the 1000V. So, off to Scott it goes (in January). He’ll be upgrading any resistors and/or caps that need it and giving it a full go through. I’ve also alerted him to the issues Skunkie pointed out with the R8 (which I have currently sitting in as a replacement for the R800i) in case there are any commonalities.
Once I get it back, I’m probably selling the R8. It has upgraded Russian PIO caps...but I’m in a slightly smaller space. If I sell the R8, my Bluesound N130 w/Teddy Pardo LPS, and my Gustard X26 Pro (along with a few Hafler DH500 amps I’ve lost interest in modding), I can upgrade to a used HiFi Rose 150B, which I’ve had my eye on for a bit. I’ll assume the DAC in the 150B is at least comparable to the Gustard. This gets me a better piece of kit to pair with my R800i, which I like better than the R8 (even though I really like the R8). But the R800i makes the ProAcs magical, whereas the R8 is simply great.
I’ll probably pick up one of the newer R8’s at some point down the road, but my urge to get the R800i fixed and upgrade to the 150B basically trumps everything else.
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That sounds very interesting. I know of one other person who has asked Skunkie to have a look at the R800i, but she also refused that offer. Yes, the amp is really heavy.
Please keep us updated once you hear back from Scott Frankland. I´m curious if there are any design flaws like in the R8. I´ve been following discussions on a number of forums and never heard of anything pointing in a specific direction. But still, maybe there is something in there that asks to be fixed. Also how you will upgrade components will be interesting to know. And the effects on the sound of course. It´s a great amp for its price and if you can make it even better by exchanging a few inside parts – why not.
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I'm so done with my R800i. China Hifi no longer responds to me.
They shipped me two new bias boards as my right side pot was going nuts. I opened the unit up to install them. Guess what? The one on the left is a relatively painless surgery. The one on the right? I simply cannot figure out how to do it without taking the amp apart. I mean significant deconstruction.
What's more, the through holes on the PCB are only big enough for like 28 gauge wire. It looks like they just (somehow) soldered the wire to the top of the through hole.
There are some good quality components in there, but when I looked at the big 1000v electrolytics, they are no-name junk that I cannot even locate online.
This amp is far from a piece of junk. But I question parts quality now and design layout. Further, I question having and amp 1000 v on the plates of the 805s if (a) customer service stinks; (b) design choices are wonky; etc.
I hate having to write this. Your mileage may vary. For me, this feels like a 100lb paperweight now. I'm not sure I want to even take it in and put money into it.
Oh, China Hifi refuses to give me a name of their authorized US repair vendor(s). Terrible.
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@jbhiller @chmaiwald you guys still use tube amps with Cornwalls?
How did you placed those speakers in your room?
(distance from front wall,between them and from your chair)
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@gregoriomtb16 I still use the Willsenton with Cornwalls. It´s a very good combination I´d say.
The speakers are about 8ft. apart and just a few inches from the wall, maybe 8. They are in our combined kitchen/living room and the best listening position is actually behind the family sofa the middle of which is also about 8ft from each speaker, maybe even less. The best listening position is a few more feet to the back, there´s our kitchen table we spend a lot of time at. Sure, the furniture interferes probably but the sound there is still great in my book. Realities of having a family...
When they were still new I built platforms with tiny weels to easily move them. While in the beginning I toed them in from time to time and found the more direct sound more pleasing I stopped doing so after a while. And when I toed them in again recently, pointing straight at me on the sofa, I found that the stage and depth suffered. So now they are pointing into the room again.
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