Too bad so few have heard the GR Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub. Nothing else like it on the market.

While I sympathize with wanting advice, this is probably the most uselessly phrased question possible.

"Musical" is entirely subjective.  You can find people happy with every type and brand of subwoofer. 

I had two JL Audio 110E subwoofers.  They integrated quite well.   Couldn't tell if you would find them musical or not, though.

Guys, 

before speaking about manufacturers and/or models you should better consider Mother Nature first, for instance by this gentleman here

And its part 2:

Best

I'm enjoying my pair of Tekton 4-10's

Vandersteen  Rel

 Both High level with their own advantages.

Most folks never heard of Vandertones a group of 11 bass warble tones for adjustments with Vandersteen Sub 3 and others 11 left ch 11 Right ch

Hey its real simple most above may not understand each room varies and has a big peak at the room resonance measured at the listening chair. the new  Vandersteen Sub 3 / Quatro and above use a simple analog adjustment with no processing in the signal path.This not only nips the room issue in the bud but offers a unique High pass crossover when connected to your amp removes its heavy bass lifting, further lowering modulation distortion in your main speakers dramatically increasing the clarity and transparency of the whole system.

 its not how low ya go its how ya go low!

Best JohnnyR                                                                                     Vandersteen Rel dealer

 I sold my svs sb1000 a couple of months ago for lack of musicality. 

I've heard both and think the REL are just better overall - faster, more dynamic, yet call less attention to themselves. FWIW, I would recommend getting at least two subs and place them carefully. The more points you pressurize the room with the better it will sound. Do a little digging into the Swarm subs to learn more. You can basically copy that setup with any subs but the concept remains the same.

@mijostyn,

It is interesting that you disapprove the high level connection. May I know your reason why. Rel believes that the high level connection provides purest signal possible to get to SW. According to Zero Fedelity, circuitry inside SWs adds delay to the incoming signal. Most of time is 0.03-0.04 second but with Rel is down to 0.008 second, with the goal that the signal can pass to the SW, circuitry and finally the driver with as minimal alteration as possible. It is about correct phase and speed to make sure the SW is in tune with the speaker.

On the other hand, although providing high level connection in their gears, Rythmik does not recommend using it. If interested, you could tune into https://www.rythmikaudio.com/faq.html#nospeakerinput for their reasons. Here I just want to warn you that, due to the fact that this connection uses a common ground, it could possibly damage the power amps that have fully balanced output.

Emotiva also believes a line level connection will usually deliver a cleaner signal, with slightly less distortion and noise, and so is usually recommended.

You could see even the manufactures themselves do not agree with each other quite a bit in this matter. Maybe you know something that we don’t.

Dynaudio 18s is a bit above the price range you mentioned ($1700) but imho is very good value for money I find it very musical and defined.

It has dual opposing drivers and you can rest your hand next ti and feel zero vibrations.

FYI I replaced an SVS 1000 with the Dynaudio: Way, way better.

@oliver_reid Thank you for letting me know about the Dynaudio 18s which is the first sub equipped with the DSP.  Did you find it useful / impactful to achieve better integration between your main speakers and the sub?

My has Receiver (Arcam) has Dirac - so I bypassed the DSP

It does have some presets designed to use with Dynaudio Studio monitors, I think you can set the rollof and apply paremtric EQ

There is a Consumer version th Sub 6 -it is the same but has EQ presets to work with DA’s line of home speakers

missioncoonery

1,022 posts

12-14-2021 4:43pm

Oldhighway...Yea we get you don't like Rel...I think we got the message maybe 8 or 10 post ago...

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well Mr. missionkooky, when you finally learn to stop giving bad advise I might let up. You recommend downward firing subs. I don't, BUT I have a reason. I can explain why ANY speaker that's coupled to the floor has an issue, in ANY sound reproduction environment.  

So what kind of advise are you giving out, the kind that really REALLY SUCKS..

You remind me of "G" about fuses and class D amps.. Just because dude..  Just use a fuse dude, any old new fuse, they are all the same, just like subs? They are all subs right.. :-)

George even knew to decouple.. He used inner tubes.. Smart dude.

Never heard a musical subwoofer, must be something new...and not in my system, no way....home theater, yes.....

Rythmik for sure.  Its driver is in a different class compared to the others mentioned.  All the others have stamped steel baskets, the rythmik is the only one with a cast frame at this price.  The rythmik driver is more in line with the next line up from all the others mentioned.  The servo and peq would seal the deal, no pun intended.

@lanx0003 --

"It is interesting that you disapprove the high level connection. May I know your reason why."

Can’t speak for poster @mijostyn, but maybe it’s at least partially due to the simple fact that using the high level output from the main speaker amp to feed the corresponding high level speaker input of the sub requires for the signal to be full range, and not high-passed - which would of course defeat the purpose. Some prefer running the main speakers full range when augmenting with subs, while others - like @mijostyn and also myself - prefer high-passing the mains here to relieve them of LF, which usually means using a higher cross-over frequency to the subs. Configured this way (i.e.: high-passing the mains with a XO point to the subs, say, no lower than 80Hz) the mains will have lower distortion and a cleaner reproduction in the audio band taking over from the sub, while also adding more headroom.

@lanx0003 , phusis hit the nail on the head. The benefit of using a two way crossover increases the wider the frequency response of the main speaker's woofer. Speakers with a large woofer that only covers the bottom 250 Hz are not going to benefit as much as speakers with smaller woofers that cover the bottom 1000 Hz. This includes a big chunk of the midrange where the decrease in distortion is very noticeable. With full range loudspeakers like my Sound Labs IMHO it is mandatory. You turn a polite speaker into a disco rocker. There are other advantages. If you are using digital bass management which includes the crossover you can place the subwoofers where they work best and are most efficient (in corners and against a wall) and correct them so they match the mains speakers in time and phase. If you like to feel the kick of a bass drum you can consider this mandatory. If you have a low power main amplifier like a SET this is also mandatory IMHO. You will increase your headroom and keep the SET away from clipping. 

The manufacturers know that most people are cost and complexity sensitive. Using just a low pass filter and pulling the sub in under the main speakers is an inexpensive, easy way of running a sub. If you have to start out this way as a temporary measure to get yourself into the game, go for it. Down the line get a preamp with bass management or a crossover like the MiniDSP and you are really in business. There is a tendency to dis digital equipment but IMHO the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages. There is so much you can do in the digital world that is impossible in the analog world. My days of being a purist are long over and I never plan to look back. Being able to tune your system exactly the way you want it is a huge advantage. The trick is to keep everything digital until the DACs before the amplifiers. This means you have to digitize your phono stage but if you do it in 24/192 the conversion is invisible. 

@phusis, Thank you.

@mijostyn, I get it now. I am convinced that is the way to go and seems not a costly and difficult thing to do. So correct me if I were wrong. I will go buy a miniDSP 2x4 HD (assuming HD version is better) and miniDSP 2x4 HD1 plug-in and make the following connection to integrate the main speakers with the SW:

source -> DAC/preamp -> MiniDSP HD -> main speakers/SW

I am not sure how good is the DAC inside the miniDSP so I feed the digital source to my DAC first and let the miniDSP process the analogue signal before distributing to main/SW, right? On the active SW side, I will by-pass the Xover (or set it to the highest frequency). Anything else I should pay due attention to please let me know.

@kiterlux

Thanks for the post.  I started another tread regarding REL Subs and Corner Horns and your video explained the REL issue.

Thanks

If I vacuum does it make me a robot?

Stacked Open-baffle GR Research 12” Paper cone drivers with the Rythmik plate amps specific to this application. 
 

Incredibly quick and detailed. Easy to tell if a drum is out of tune, 

there’s a bit of DIY involved 

contact Danny at GR Research. 

I can only speak for my Rythmik F12G.

 👍 x 10

I would look into PSA subs.

I just upgraded my system and I added a REL t9x

About 3 weeks ago and I love it!  Its a big difference

in sounstage the beat of the drums etc.  

I also added a simaudio 280d dac and their 340 ix amp.

my speakers are totem rainmakers, but I also upgraded to

aerial acoustics 5t, which are still breaking in, but they still

present an amazing difference in sounstage over the rainmakers

which I loved.  I’ve tested with and without the sub and whether

with my rainmakers or aerials the difference is very noticeable.

i’m extremely pleased with how easy the rel integrates with my system!

I had a Velodyne SPL 1000 for almost 20 years. I wanted to upgrade, and ordered a RSL Speedwoofer. That was a fast pass. I ordered a SVS SB-2000. It was an awesome sub. All those applications were for my home theater. For my dedicated 2 channel audio system, I recently replaced my floor-standers with bookshelf speakers. I was so pleased with the first SVS that I bought another. I bought a SVS SB-1000 Pro. For me, I think sealed box subs sound fast, articulate, and do a double bass justice. Bass reflex subs produce low frequency noise. No bass reflex in my home.

Guys........the room size is also a big factor. I have a system on the long wall at one end, a sixty foot wall, and eighteen feet across, allowing long wave lengths to propagate nicely. The longer the room, the better possibility of more enjoyable results. I am more of a movie watcher than audiophile lately, and two bag End Infra 18's have it covered nicely, to eight hz.

I'm kind of surprised no one has chimed in on the RSL Speedwoofer 10, I recently picked one up and am thrilled with the tight, accurate bass. A bargain at $399, I plan on getting a 2nd. Read the reviews. It integrates easily and has lots of punch. I have it set at around 45hz and picks up where my Tekton DI monitors slope off, really filled out the bottom end nicely. Great for rock and techno

moved from rel to b&w and never looked back / expensive but worth it

After owning and hearing many subwoofers (Rel, SVS, Rythmik, Funk Audio, JLA, Martin Logan, Elac, etc.) the best for music was JL Audio. Your SVS and Rythmik are great for HT, music not so much. I would suggest a JLS Dominion D108 which TAS gave a "Product / subwoofer of the year" award in this month's issue. 

Not bragging here, but I could buy any brand and I have 4 JL Audio Fathoms in my system.

Good luck in your search!

Bag End, more of a pro audio line, is very musical and Jim Wischmeyer is a great guy.

Hsu subs are excellent and well priced. I prefer (and own) a pair of powered VTF-15H MK2 

lanx0003 OP -"used correctly"?  Who sez? I set up my REL sub as they recommend in the manual and it sounds great.  You might be using your equipment incorrectly and I suggest reading the manual.

So many opinions on which brand is "best".  What seems to ring true for everyone is subs are good, and more are better.  One might conclude that matching the size, type, location, and integration of the subs with your room and speakers matters more than the brand.

I currently own subs from Rythmik, SVS, and PSA.  All work well for music.  I've also owned some other subs including HSU, Sunfire, and even Klipsch. 

Some do sound "bad".  Klipsch and Sunfire were not very good.  Not just not "musical", but not very good for anything.  They made noise, but that was about it.  I didn't think the HSU subs were very robust, but I had some older models.  They may have gotten better.

If I were to generalize, I'd say stick to sealed subs, get as many (up to 4 or 5) as you can afford and have room for, and experiment with placement and tuning. 

All of the subs I own are "musical" and integrate well with my mains.  This is in large part due to the fact that I have 4 of them throughout my room in my main system and have a massive amount of headroom.  They don't call attention to themselves in any way when there isn't a lot of bass content and can deliver the goods in a very visceral way, much like what you experience with live music.

I have a couple of secondary systems where I only have one subwoofer.  While it doesn't rival my main system in terms of scale, I have an inexpensive SVS SB12-NSD sealed sub and Harbeth P3ESRs in a small room and it rivals my main system in terms of listening pleasure.

Using the right tool in the right way for the job at hands matters more than which brand in my experience.

I was strongly considering REL as well, and believe they are a good choice.

However, the REL hook-up utilizes the high-level speaker wire for input. So both the main speakers and subwoofer operate from the same signal.

I went instead with a Rythmik F12, which operates from the RCA low level input, then the Rythmik has a HPF (high pass filter) RCA out to feed your power amp, then your mains.

The benefit that it reduces the amount of low frequency requirement going to the mains. This reduces the amount of woofer excursion in the mains, improving their clarity.

I was less familiar with Rythmik at first, but I had earlier purchased a pair of Fritz Carbon 7's. I spoke with Fritz before choosing the sub to pair with them and he recommended a sub with the "servo" technology, which the Rythmik has. 

Adding to my previous post, the smartphone app of the SB-1000 Pro lets you fine tune it from listening position. Tweaks as follows from app, volume, low pass filter, phase in one degree increments, polarity, three parametric equalizers, room gain comp frequency, and presets. So much easier to set up a sub with this app. Love it!

EASY - REL

Have had a number of subs - no losers in the bunch yet.  In my Magneplanar 3.7i system I have a pair of MartinLogan Dynamo 1100X subs.  Integrate nicely in that setting (crossed over quite low) and the Anthem Room Correction function works well.  In my QLN Prestige One system I have a pair of Sumiko S9 subs - very similar to the REL T-9; perhaps because Sumiko imported REL at one time and they cloned them?  Work very nicely with the QLNs.  In my Totem Acoustics Sky system I have an SVS SB2000.  This integrates very nicely with the Sky's.  Also have a REL T-9 and an RSL Speedwoofer that are not currently in use as well as an old Velodyne ULD12, also unused at this time.

Avoid ported subs. Look at Rythmik or GR research which are servo controlled and if you are not familiar with the concept, look it up. Try for at least 3 subs which do not need to be identical. Include at least one servo sub. There are many articles and posts on the multi-sub approach and the awesome results. If you are serious about subs you owe it to yourself to find out.

SVS The SB 3000, I have two for my system. they compliment my LSA floor standers

My big problem is that my otherwise wonderful custom built speakers only go down to 70Hz. So, which if any of these subs would make the audio sound the least colored or incoherent with having to cross the high up?

I have only tried SVS subs so far, so I may not be of much help. However, Rythmik offers more adjustments, including the low pass frequency (LPF) slope and PEQ adjustments that others do not have. You may want to give it a try.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rythmik-l12-subwoofer-review.12140/

Gallo TR3s are SUPERB.

@ajant 

My front subs are SVS SB4000 and I am crossing them over at 161 Hz and have crossed them over as high as 177 Hz and they have sounded good to me at either setting.

Not the most popular, and probably the most expensive. The B&W DB series sub is some of the best. ticks ALL the boxes Plus they are controlled by an app and can adjust from your listening chair. The adjustment alone keeps me from buying anything  else. IM sure B&/w db series flys under the radar because of the price, 

Not getting into my vast time and experience with subwoofer integration. I knew John Marovskis, and bought many of the two or 3 models he created, for me, and my clients. Fun driving from Brooklyn to the Bronx ( lol ), but was always great to see John. Sub integration is a lot harder and trickier to implement properly, simply because of these last bottom octaves, and the room characteristics. Today, I am happy to say, I am using ONE RSL 12S, located in between my Lascalas, and it has been the best integration, and most musically coherent match with my speakers / room I have experienced living in this place since 2014. I am running my Lascalas full range, as I feel they are spectacular the way they are now. A bonus with the Lascala, on top of the fact they just do it for me, is the freedom to use any amp out there, as I am an amp junkie, and do rotations often. Actually, this rotation is now false, as of late. I have gone from using my Luminous passive pre, to my Usher preamp, since I acquired my F4 from my friend rawsonte. This combination, is truly a " reach out and touch " listening experience. On several recordings, I am at the limit with the Usher's attenuator, but reaches levels that I enjoy. BTW, I never, ever was near max with the Luminous. Getting back to the RSL. My ears are delighted with the " utmost coherent blend " this connection gives me. Reading through this thread since it's inception, it is possible to achieve good to excellent results adding a sub or two. Enjoy ! MrD.

Forgot to mention, I am using my preferred " hi level " connection to the sub.