Seriously? Why Buy ARC Ref 6SE? seems Benchmark LA4 is a better choice.

" Frankly, what justifies buying a preamp at such a high price?? It is supposed to be a neutral pass thru of a signal."

Are you expecting a different set of responses than you already received in your other thread?https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/high-end-stereo-preamps-worth-it

The ARC has tubes, few more inputs and reputation. Some don't buy products looking for the most neutral or best measuring.

Well then emergingsoul, don't buy one!

Yes, I understand about amps not part of the benchmark.

but, it remains totally unclear what is achieved within the arc 6se box. It’s a simple preamp.

There is value in a dac, in an amp, speakers and even an avr.  These are complex electronics devices with much going on inside.  I am getting more hard pressed to justify a $17k spend on a stereo preamp.  I would prefer to devote resources to a better main speaker with larger drivers. This follows an especially helpful discussion with a high end dealer who said it is very difficult discerning a diff between stereo preamps.  Much easier to pick out a diff in speakers.

it’s all marketing funny business.  If there truly were diffs there would be all kinds of efforts to have AB testing reviews and in store comparisons.  They don’t do this.

I have heard both, and apparently you have not.

Go listen and the answer will become clear, 

Do you know Julian Hirsch?

I would imagine you could hear differences between the ARC and Benchmark and it comes down to preference. I know I would prefer the Benchmark. I like transparent as possible and tossing tubes in the preamp just adds distortion.

Benchmark always sounds like nails on a chalkboard to me.  Why buy an expensive car when a cheap Fiat can do the same things?  You get what you pay for.   If you can’t figure out the difference, you are in the wrong hobby. 

I doubt they sound the same. Nor do they look the same. So there is that. Different strokes for different folks. I have an ARC preamp currently I am very fond of but would also like to try the Benchmark. They are both companies with very good reputations for delivering quality pieces of technology based on substantial R&D but with somewhat different goals in mind. 

" it’s all marketing funny business. If there truly were diffs there would be all kinds of efforts to have AB testing reviews and in store comparisons. They don’t do this."

Sounds just like kenjit’s speaker narrative

+1, @stereo5 and @jperry 

One part of the answer might be found by comparing the two units’ resale history at somewhere like HiFi Shark. If audiophiles like to try and buy, than perhaps one unit retains value better than the other? Just a guess, because they both seem like very reputable brands, though ARC is much more well-known, overall, right?

Actually you should not hear anything from the LA4, zero, utterly silent. If you are hearing chalk on a blackboard with the LA4 then you are hearing something else in the system.

The ARC will have some sound character to it. I heard my buddies ARC based tub system with Spendor D7’s and it sounded great but not something I would get for myself.

I had this same preamp decision when I went preamp shopping a few months ago. Get something with a sound signature to it like the great Luxman c900u or something without any sound to it like the HPA4/LA4. I am very happy I got the HPA4 and can add any amp + speaker to tailor the sound.

Just keep your eyes open for posts by people who give the LA4 a 30 day home demo and decide this is a great choice for their mega expensive ($100K) systems. Already 1 or 2 posts like that on Audiogon and a few on WBF. Benchmark seems to be behind on orders for almost all of 2020. A lot of demand.

I do think the LA4 looks rather unattractive.

I spoke with Rory Rail at Benchmark when I order 6 months ago. They are not keeping up with demand even today. Go to the web site today and see the disclaimer (capital letters are from web site).

" WE HAVE BEEN EXPERIENCING VERY HIGH DEMAND FOR OUR PRODUCTS OVER THE PAST THREE MONTHS. WE ARE WORKING HARD TO MEET THE INCREASED DEMAND. ALL ORDERS ARE FULLFILLED IN THE ORDER RECEIVED. "

You can get something like Luxman or Ref 6SE that connects you to music emotionally or get something like Benchmark for background noise.

As someone who has heard all of those components I would say that comment is rather ignorant. I have a feeling you are not even clued into that we are talking about preamps on this thread. You funny though.

I think it boils down to a segment of market that is ego driven, knows quality, kinda naive, wants to feel comfortable with a purchase, likes to be admired by peers, and has the means to spend some money.  I don’t mind the price differential, as long as I receive value, can understand what I am buying, and don’t get taken advantage of.

a product like the Benchmark la4 throws a big wrench into the fan.

As many have said, you have to listen to preamps to decide which one you like.  If you can't bring yourself to believe that they can sound different, buy the cheapest one that appeals to you in other ways.

Marketing hype and marque fsctor! Same as high-priced SUVs (Mercedes. BMW, Audi ...)

@tomcy6 : the truth is that there is no discernable sonic difference between any of today's solid state gear (amps, preamps, CD/DVD players/transports, DACs) - regardless of what the golden ear audio gurus claim! 

+1 emergingsoul! You speak the uncomfortable truth! Expensive high end gear is a case of "the emperor’s new clothes"!

It is supposed to be a neutral pass thru of a signal.

I don't buy for neutral, I buy for fun.  I have to say the ARC is one of the most neutral bits of tube gear out there, which in my mind has made it a let down.

Lots of less expensive gear sounds as good to my ears in this generation.

Having said that.... Some vintage CJ or Luxman transformer volume controlled pre's can really add a lot of enjoyment and image to the experience. 
Ayre, yeah, I like Ayre pre's a lot more too. :)

Best,
E

If you want to hear a difference between components buy tube gear!

Funny how jealousy expresses itself here.

@emergingsoul I don't buy the ego driven thing as something that applies to most folks. I think people buy what they like or need for their system. If the LA4 cost $20K I would have to do more demoing and likely still got it. However, at $2.5K it was simple buy decision and moved on to the next component I needed. I think it plays in the $20K crowd.

It’s a quandary. And leaning more toward tubes seems to offer more musical fun, especially vocals.  I can’t leave my home to go visit listening rooms due to an injury so I am learning what I can.  Although not sure if this would help.  
Buying an Audi or Mercedes clearly has considerable value. A recent Volkswagen may also be just as good, but it’s a Volkswagen.  A Volvo is a lot safer but doesn’t look as nice. I buy used cars, ie. audis, they perform quite well longer term.

@emergingsoul You sound like someone that needs to have a listen to the Luxman c900u preamp and m900u amp stack. Only tubey sound I loved and it is SS, great stuff. I would not mind putting the HPA4 or LA4 with the Luxman m900u amp but I will try a CODA #8 first for 1/3 the cost. I actually was emailing CODA today about getting a customized version of the #8, which I will do.

A side note about cars, I had BMW M3 (E46) for 19 years (only owner). I sold it a few weeks ago and bought some speakers with the proceeds. I advertised it on Facebook and had over 150 offers to buy in 1 hour, I was shocked. I had a guy come to my door 10 minutes after the ad was placed and gave me cash on the spot. He had seem my car on the driveway once and was able to figure out that it was my ad. I did not put my address on the ad. It really showed me the power of Facebook.

You guys are too much, sometimes this forum reads like outtakes from Grumpy Old Men. 

This is such a rubbish troll post... Ranty OP and responses 

Is it a 'neutral pass thru' of the signal or not.
This is the first question.  It needs answering before all the others.
Because if it is, then we don't need pre-amps.
Or all the discussion about them.

YY which speakers??

My streamer/DAC (a Matrix Element X) has volume control and input selection. I don't use a dedicated preamp between it and my power amp (a Benchmark AHB2).  So I'm reading this thread from that perspective.  If a good preamp is a "neutral pass thru", why bother to add one at all?

Talk never made a component sound better.   

Another of the endless discussions that combines 2 eternal and un resolvable issues
First issue-perceived value.  As in why do two pieces of gear that perform the same function vary so widely in price?
Second issue-do preamps do anything? And is it worth paying for what they may do?

My cut to the chase answer—there is enough perception amongst a critical mass of listeners to sustain an industry that caters to offering these differences to suit various tastes amongst consumers.  There are also enough  consumers that perceive these differences, and are interested enough in them, to sustain multiple internet sites to discuss these differences.
  Some people claim that they cannot hear the difference that a preamp makes, or that they cannot tell the difference between 2 pieces of gear.  If that is the case, those people are to be pitied, because they are not able to have the enjoyment that the rest of us do in relishing these differences.  Those individuals are better served getting product reviews from a source such as Consumer Reports.  When they constantly hector others by in effect saying, since I cannot perceive a difference, no such difference exists and the rest of you are deluded,
then they are irritating.
  As others have said, no amount of words can change this, because one has to be able to hear the difference.  And no wiser advice than “so don’t buy it” can be offered to the non-believer

@kren0006 I was going to get the Yamaha NS5000 but then I saw a local ad for a speaker that I liked better, the Thiel CS3.7. It also has less bass so it works better in my room.

I am still looking at the NS5000 or KEF Blade2 for my larger room downstairs. Though I do so much listening in the home office room that I am wondering about setting up a another system.

@clearthinker Some people need a preamp because they (like me) think the volume control on a DACs is not as good direct to amp. Yes, I have done that for years. There are also people with sources that do not have a volume control, how do you play them?

+1 mahler123

 the truth is that there is no discernable sonic difference between any of today’s solid state gear (amps, preamps, CD/DVD players/transports, DACs) - regardless of what the golden ear audio gurus claim!

This exemplifies the reason for most audio arguments. People believe that their own experience is a universal truth and feel they have to convince everyone else of that.

Everyone hears differently and has different interest in hearing and ability to hear differences between gear. We can all share our experience, as that, and learn from others sharing their experience. When we decide that what we hear is what everyone else must hear or they’re lying or being duped is when tempers flare and people get defensive or lash out.

People who can’t hear the difference between different amps and preamps are lucky in a way. Their audio journey is much easier and cheaper.

People who can hear differences are going to have to put more time and energy into putting their system together and it’s going to cost more, but they may get enjoyment out of the journey and may end up with more satisfying (to them) sound.

I will just suggest that if all gear sounds the same to you, you’re probably wasting your time on this forum.

Ahhhh, thoughts from true marketeer.  Maybe take a poll.  Most will say they can’t hear diffs.  High end dealer conveyed that most can’t hear diffs, including reviewers paid to write fancy prose.

Maybe take a poll.  Most will say they can’t hear diffs.  High end dealer conveyed that most can’t hear diffs

Good for them and you! Now maybe you can find something better to do with your (and our) time?

And after all the prior discussion the troll emerges 

"emergingsoul OP... Maybe take a poll.  Most will say they can’t hear diffs.  High end dealer conveyed that most can’t hear diffs, including reviewers paid to write fancy prose..."

These trolls seem to think that if they can play it on their Sony PS3, then, that's good enough and anything better is confirmation bias, when it's the other way around.

For them, audio devices are just appliances and nothing more, which begs the question already asked, what are they doing here?

All the best,
Nonoise

Big diff between Sony ps3 and better boxes for creating sound..

all about diminishing returns as audio gear gets higher, which trails off as human hearing declines when we get older.

sounds from high equip may be great, but our ability to hear can’t resolve a lot of these great sounds

many of us, older beyond 35, have hearing loss to a certain degree

Gee, I never heard that before...

So the question OP you should ask yourself is why trouble yourself with your questions about high end preamps when you apparently have no regard for them and therefore in making the purchase

I just can’t wait to see what OP ends up with.....just read up his threads on digital servers, especially this one 😂

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/streamers-servers-players-woefully-overpriced

Do you see a pattern? What’s next, speakers or amp? 

And I don’t like listening to music very much.

waiting to hear something of value about high end preamps.  Very thin.

lots of marketing hype 

“waiting to hear something of value about high end preamps”

In order to hear (as in listening with your ears) something of value, you have to actually listen to equipment and not read/troll message boards.

If you can’t hear the “diffs” then just buy whatever and move along.

Paul @ PS Audio has a great explanation of why pre-amps are important, but also why it costs so much to create a pre-amp that does not add or subtract ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isQ48qn1CK8

In case, audiogon removes the link, you can go to youtube and search for the title 'Does anyone need a preamp?' by PS Audio.

" And I don’t like listening to music very much. "

That says it all folks, time to move on from any of the OPs posts on any thread topic