I recently sold a pair of mono amps and checked the box that indicated the original manual was included. I never use the manual for something like this and just assumed the manual was in the box as there were some various papers from the manufacturer in the boxes.
The buyer got the amps safely and they are in perfect condition as described. I shipped the same day the item sold. Unfortunately the manuals were not in the boxes the amps came in. These were the original boxes, but the manuals are not there according to the buyer.
I sent him the link to download the pdf of the manual. He is not happy with that. I offered to print a color double sided copy (on good stock) at Kinkos for $20 (at my expense) and ship that to him. He says that the original manual was promised and that I have to deliver that to him. And that he dervers two of them since the amps came in two separate boxes. He is threating to kill the deal and dispute with audiogon and paypal.
I admit that I'm in the wrong for mis-stating that the manuals were included. I will attempt to order the manuals from the manufacturer on Monday, but I don't know that the manufacturer will provide them even if I pay for them.
I'd appreciate comments regarding this problem. Thank you.
best thing about this thread is that several of the old audiogon gang are still here! I do think the buyer is being unreasonable ( to say the very least), and you are being most kind and thoughtful.
Per several others, I agree: 1. Buyer is an a$$hole of the lowest order. 2. Buyer deserves nothing more than the best reproduction of the manual you can provide. Many, many products do not ship w hard copy manual these days. 3. If buyer funded pp via a credit card, you may be in a tight spot. 4. Your "error" was harmless/negligible. 5. Your offer to provide a manual negates the error. 6. When you purchase via mail order few sellers provide refund for shipping in either direction. 7. I agree w others that your most pragmatic solution may be to offer a refund, less shipping, to be credited to "buyer" after receipt in same condition, shipped at "buyer's" expense and risk.
"I recently sold a pair of mono amps and checked the box that indicated the original manual was included."
I find it interesting that so many people here think the buyer is a jerk because he expected to receive what was advertised. We have no idea what communication took place between jaxwired and the buyer. We are hearing one side of the story, but there is always two sides to every story.
Jaxwired is negligent no matter how you look at it. There was no attention to detail even during preparation for shipping.
"I never use the manual for something like this and just assumed the manual was in the box as there were some various papers from the manufacturer in the box.
I have had to return two items in the last couple of years and I should have returned more because sellers are not accurately describing the equipment they are selling. My money was refunded, but it cost me $100 in shipping to find out the bottoms of the speakers were so chewed up from spikes the wood was peeling off the bottom, the grill had snags and the foam around the tweeter needed to be replaced. Because of the problems I have had I am becoming less tolerant of sellers. Maybe this is the case with the buyer in this sale with Jaxwired.
Wow, this buyer needs to look up "anal" in the dictionary.
Okay, I agree with most of the comments I've read here. Yes, technically you have failed to provide what you promised. OTOH, many manuals, such as those for my Maggies, are actually just themselves photocopies. So this situation is, in fact, situation dependent. If the original manual was all nice and spiffy, then you should try to procure the original manual. If it was just a photocopy to begin with then what does he expect? Does he want you to improve on the original document? That is patently ridiculous.
As for needing two copies... That seems a bit much. Why? One for each eye? One for the home theater and one for the bathroom? What? I suppose in case he sells them later, but even then we are talking peanuts.
Listen, I don't blame the guy for being a little irked and he is probably putting you thru the ringer because he felt you misled him, but if you hadn't sent him both amps that would be entirely different, or if they weren't as described. I like to have original manuals as well, and almost everyone who knows me describes as anal, so it says something that even I think this is a bit much.
Elizabeth, I agree with you. It does seem the buyer is being petty, but we are only hearing the seller's side of the story. Maybe if we only heard the buyer's side we would think the seller is a jerk. Also, we do not know how this was handled by the seller at first mention of the manuals not being included.
When all is said, yes 58 of them, the buyer needs to ship them back at his expense (PayPay rules) and thus be out this shipping cost as a statement of his foolishness.
I'm happy to hear that the amps arrived safely. I sent everything I had. I guess I didn't have the manual. I apologize. I figured it was in one of those white envelopes. You can download the full manual and print out a copy if you need to. Here is the link: @^^#%#%^&@
Again, I'm sorry it was missing from the box."
His response:
"No, Seller. You had to have known there was no manual, but yet you sold it as mint with a manual. Either get me an original manual or you can have the amps back."
My response:
"Buyer,
I will contact the manufacturer on Monday to order the manual from them. I will attempt to have them ship directly to your address.
OR, I can go to kinkos with the downloaded pdf and print out a 2 sided color copy of the manual (on good paper stock) center stapled in magazine format and ship it out today. This would be a $20 expense, but I am willing to do that to get you the manual today. Let me know."
His Response:
"Ok, Seller, you will get me an original manual to complete the sale. (Please send all messages through Audiogon). I want to deal only with people who do exactly what they say they will do, nothing more and certainly nothing less. I bought an original manual, so I want it. If you contact the manufacturer to get it, please have it sent directly to me. If I don't hear from you by Tuesday, 28 August 2012, on when I will receive the Owner's Reference manual then I will notify Audiogon and PayPal."
Seller. Call your bank and let them know not to release any money to Paypal. Make the buyer put in a claim and make him wait 45 days to get a refund. In the meantime you'll get your amps back. Make sure to have the delivery man take them back to USPS Fed Ex or where ever they came from and open the boxes in front of witnesses and take pictures to make sure you received everything back and that there is no damage to the amps.
....... "the buyer needs to ship them back at his expense (PayPay rules)".......... 08-27-12: Buconero117 Plus the buyer better insure the two amps.
"No, Seller. You had to have known there was no manual, but yet you sold it as mint with a manual. Either get me an original manual or you can have the amps back." 08-27-12: Jaxwired
Jaxwired, Is that true you listed the amps as "mint" with manual?
I am not going to try to tell you what to do......
I would suggest you go to kinkos and have 2 copies of the manual printed. Then send the two manuals to the buyer with a note, again saying you are sorry for not checking the boxes for the manuals.
Email the buyer telling him you have sent him the manuals, to let him know they are on the way.
Just remember you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar... .
Hi Buyer, I'm happy to hear that the amps arrived safely. I sent everything I had. I guess I didn't have the manual. I apologize. I figured it was in one of those white envelopes.
Courteous. Apologetic. ________________________
You can download the full manual and print out a copy if you need to. Here is the link: @^^#%#%^&@ Again, I'm sorry it was missing from the box."
Regretful. Helpful. ________________________
No, Seller. You had to have known there was no manual, but yet you sold it as mint with a manual.
Either get me an original manual or you can have the amps back.
Peremptory. Rude. ________________________
Buyer, I will contact the manufacturer on Monday to order the manual from them. I will attempt to have them ship directly to your address.
OR, I can go to kinkos with the downloaded pdf and print out a 2 sided color copy of the manual (on good paper stock) center stapled in magazine format and ship it out today. This would be a $20 expense, but I am willing to do that to get you the manual today. Let me know.
Ok, Seller, you will get me an original manual to complete the sale.
Aggressive. Imperious.
(Please send all messages through Audiogon). I want to deal only with people who do exactly what they say they will do, nothing more and certainly nothing less.
Hostile. Derogatory. _________________________
I bought an original manual, so I want it. If you contact the manufacturer to get it, please have it sent directly to me. If I don't hear from you by Tuesday, 28 August 2012, on when I will receive the Owner's Reference manual then I will notify Audiogon and PayPal.
Offer to send him some nice PDF printed, bound at Kinkos with spirol copies and include a "C" note for his aggrevation. If a free high-end dinner doesnt please the buyer than they've gone past the anal part and are now in the colon. Maybe the buyer would like to give us the other side of the story? -JD
Ok, people, you'll love this. Here is the response from the manufacturer. They emailed me this morning.
Here's what I asked them:
"Hello,
I would like to order the original manual for the XXXX amplifier. I do not want a pdf or to download the pdf of the manual. I want the original manual that comes in the box. Can I order one? "
Here is there response:
"We include only a “quick start guide” (4 double sided pages) with most new XXXX products these days. As such we no longer stock paper copies of complete owner’s manuals. Sorry!"
He included the manual in pdf form in his response. The manual is 16 pages long. They do not include manuals with their new products! So there never were any manuals. Now I have to produce mnauals that never even existed to complete the sale. Great....
I've printed out the pdf at Kinkos. I used their best glossy stock and had it center stapled in magazine format and in COLOR! They look fantastic, like they were professionally published. I have now put them in a hard side priority mail box so they don't get damanged. I will send them out today. That's all I can do.
Rrog- how do you know buyer has been burned before? Are you the buyer? And thanks for letting us know that you call getting a printed pdf of the manual not cutting any slack. Will NEVER sell anything to you. Advise all others to make note. This is absurd. Continue to suggest that seller offer to return buyers $$, less shipping, upon receipt of undamaged amps.
"I would also add in the email, the emails between you and the manufacture.... I bet the buyer will understand and be happy." (Jea48)
I bet there's almost no chance that "the buyer will understand and be happy." What's making him happy, is causing this bizarre stink over almost nothing. It sounds like he's trying to "teach the seller a lesson", & his pompous manner.....maybe he's clinically narcissistic? Has he listened to the amps? It doesn't sound like he even cares about the amps, only the manual.
Jaxwired, it sounds like these were expensive amps? You maybe didn't talk to the buyer by phone before the sale?? I once turned down a sale of a $1K TT to some pompous Yuppie type after talking to him on the phone. He was very suspicious, kind of insinuating--w/in the first couple of minutes--that I was some kind of scam artist (??) (even tho he had 0 FB, & I had a lot of great FB), demanding that I bring it over to his place & set it up for him, on & on. And I bet he would have found some tiny thing to make a stink about after the sale, even tho the TT was perfect.
It's all about "me me me me me me me" for those types.....& I think "proving" how superior they are.....I bet all this makes this buyer feel "powerful".....& that he's feeling very, very pleased with himself right now.....
Jaxwired, drag the buyer through the mud. Make him put in a claim. I doubt Paypal will side up with you, but they have to take the time to hear your side before giving you a decision. Make some interest off of the schmucks money and do not pay it back until the last possible moment. You seem like you are at least trying to make things right. Good luck. BTW I sopke with Paupal and it will take about 30 days.
Have you tried or suggested that the two of you speak on the phone? I think email can be pretty brutal sometimes. Taking time to talk it through might help bring this back to a more even keel level. Take the emotion out of it. Discuss it 1:1 and try to come up w/ a fair resolution. Good luck.
Swampwalker, It's too early for you to be drinking. My comment was based on the communication posted between Jaxwired and the buyer. For your information, I have had several smooth transactions with members of this forum. Your user name has been noted as well.
This thread blows my mind. Is there any hope for mankind? No kidding, is this actually being debated! All of this about a manual and wether it is a copy, color, has a coffee stain, torn corner on one page and perhaps folded in the middle.....
Nothing here to debate or think too deeply about. It seems to me some are thinking way too much on a matter that does not require or deserve this kind grey matter exercise.
Send a nice copy as the buyer is out of line and is outside the boundaries of any sense of reasonableness. It is interesting and reminds me of how difficult, angry and unreasonable some folks can be.
Sorry you have had to deal with this childish behavior. I feel for you. Very stressful and strange.
Rrog- I started drinking right after Jax posted that there never were "original" owners manuals provided w the amps. BTW, I've read and re-read the emails btwn buyer and seller and do not see anyplace where buyer says he has been burned before. Maybe I missed something, but I've seen nothing in the 80 posts to this thread that makes me even begin to reconsider my opinion that buyer is a 100%, dyed-in-the-wool A-hole. YMMV.
I would side with buyer if original manuals would have been printed material. I tend to pay more for used gear if original manuals are included because I assume ower(s) took better care of the equipment; original manuals for vintage gear can fetch relatively high prices on eBay - I paid $50 plus shipping for an original manual for a vintage high end tube unit.
This is even more important for original boxes and packing for the same reason, AND also because many manufacturers require gear to be shipped in original packaging for when shipping for warranty and other repairs. I paid over $60 for Audio Research box and packing when I had to send in a used unit for repairs. The toy analogy does NOT hold.
The seller should have CHECKED what was in the envelopes when listing - seller was hasty constructing the listing. None of us would accept high quality copies of missing manuals when we purchase new gear, therefore copies are not the same.
Of course the seller invested time to correct his MISTAKE and lucked out that original paperwork was not "printed" material. Of course the copies would have the same information but is that the only purpose? If buyer decides to sell the gear to me in the future, he will get more for it.
In summary, to a buyer/collector, original manuals can be important. Copies are not really valuable these days given the internet; anyone can have a high quality copy made for $10 to $20.
I DO NOT THINK IT IS FAIR FOR THE SELLER TO DETERMINE WHAT IS UNIMPORTANT TO THE BUYER.
I was not the buyer in this case, the two Audiogon purchases I made were great! If Audiogon FIXES there site I may make further purchases (got that in!).
Hopefully the buyer hasn't been reading this thread. It may set a mental bias just out of stubborn pride. In retrospect you should have told him that you forgot to include the manual, and sent the kinkos PDF copy as the original. He probably never would have known the difference. When you look at some of the manuals that come with some equipment, you wonder if they don't get them at kinkos as well. Audio Research has a nice card stock cover but would real easy to replicate for about 10 bucks. Good Luck and hopefully if the buyer has read the thread that he has a forgiving nature. I encourage him/her to re-read that the OP never really bashed him. The rest of us did, but that is our nature:) it's a audiophile cyber-flash mob!
agree 100% with grannyring. that this idiocy would so escalate demonstrates how sick, entitled and litigious our society has become. so maybe jaxwired screwed up and maybe the OCD buyer sincerely longs for the original manual. step on--there's famine, pestilence and global warming to worry about. not every little slight deserves redress.
The real problem here is Jax misrepresented what he was selling. If Jax did his homework and knew from the beginning the amplifiers did not include a manual this problem never would have existed and neither would this thread.
Is it possible that the buyer knew the amps could not come with original manuals and that demanding them is some form of shakedown scam? If he had done his research how could he not have known about the manuals?
IMO the buyer is acting petty since the original manual is nothing special, indicated by the manufacturer response. He should be supplied a manual which you have complied with.
Here's a sample of the manuals from some of my gear: VAC, manual is just photo copies stapeled in the corner Origin Live, manual is just photo copies stapeled in the corner Manley, manual is decent quality paper bound to a generic plastic spiral binder ESP, manual is just photo copies stapeled in the corner W4S, manual is decent quality paper bound in a generic plastic binder
None of my manuals are anything to get excited about. The money went into the product.
"Jax, please don't use the common "I rated it a 8 but it's really an 9." That one drives me crazy."
I have never done that one myself, but I do I understand where the seller is coming from. Everyone has a different interpretation of what 9 means. I feel confident that for every item listed as a 9, there's a super picky buyer out there that would strongly disagree. I tend to use 8 unless the product was very recently brand new.
What kind of amps are these that need a manual? Doesn't the buyer know you just plug them in and turn them on? Dude really? Do you need a manual that shows the wire diection as well? Just kidding! The buyer could be selling to someone else as new and just opened the box to check contents. Yes, he really needs the ORIGINAL manuals to those very confusing mono's. WAIT, are these going to be a collectors item some day? Maybe he knows something the seller deosn't.
If the seller did offer the ORIGINAL manual then he needs to find out if one actually came with the amps to begin with and if he can get another factory supplied manual. If not then the buyer does have an arguement even if he is being an a$$.
You guys are completely missing the point. It was discovered after the fact the manual is nothing special. However, the ad stated the amps included the original manufacturer's manual. Except when the amps arrived there was no manual. The buyer does not know Jax from Adam and the first thing that may enter the buyer's mind is, what else is the seller lying about.
Jax messed up. The ad should have stated the type of owner's manaul that was included in the ad so everybody knows what to expect up front. The majority of Jax's supporters are people who sell for more than a hobby and only put yourselves in the seller's shoes. Keep in mind, without buyers we would all be in deep shit.
Deep shit? ALL of us? Really? I sell things on here and ebay to get them out of my way. I don't give them away because I can afford to keep them if they don't sell. I treat buyers right but I would never be in deep shit without them. If fact most buyers are usually in deep shit financially due to over spending. Not all of us are in the same boat.
Oh there are amps that need manuals. I'd hate to be a tube amp owner who powers up with no speaker conections made. A manual that reminds me that this is a no-no is a great help.
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