This one will probably invite some withering mockery, but I will ask....
I only stream, and my streamer (Bryston BDP) is fed with an ethernet cable that runs back to my router. Literally back to my router; there are enough output jacks on the router that I have a long run to the streamer and no ethernet switch in the chain (or the house system for that matter). (There is an Eno filter right before the streamer).
I happen to OWN a nice LHY ethernet switch. I am assuming that there is no reason to use it in this configuration, that is, assuming there are noisier switches, and less noisy switches, there is still no net benefit of adding any switch to this chain. But maybe, just maybe, in the metaphysics of electrons that I do not understand, there is some reason why a nice switch prior to the streamer accomplishes something (in theory...I get that I can A/B test and try to fool myself whether I can hear a difference). For the first person with a correct answer, I will mail a nice $600 switch to the address you specify! (JK)
I'm not here to troll. But packets are packets and ethernet knows how to reassemble them. If it didn't then $%kdiow @#sedfm WE235* would happen.
The rest of this, on the network side, is audio bling, unless your streamer isn't designed well to handle any electrical noise over its LAN port. And that is only theoretical.
I feel bad for Fredrik222 - he's absolutely correct, but some of his posts are off-putting. Then again, so are the responses to those posts...
I know not to attempt swapping IC, speaker or USB while equipment is ON
Definitely don't swap single-ended interconnects and if you swap speakers you have to pull the + first and put in the - first. If anything bad happens when you pull a USB cable, then you've got something seriously wrong with that USB device.
I honestly do not want to start or perpetuate an argument but analog audio logic simply doesn't apply in the digital or network domain. It's fundamentally different.
On my digital journey, I have found that sometimes just tweaks can make a notable difference in sound quality. Better digital cabling for the Ethernet as well as USB or S/PDIF makes a difference. Minimizing noise is also really important. Last year, I was listening to the differences between music stored on my music-server and streamed through the same device. The difference though subtle was obvious that the streamed music was not as micro-detailed and dynamic as the SAME album stored on the music-server. I installed an Uptone-Audio Ether-REGEN device and that brought the streamed music on par with the stored music. That Ethernet regenerator not only re-digitizes the signal, it minimized and isolates noise from the incoming signal. Even my fiance could tell the difference in the music and she's not as attuned to subtle changes as I am. The LHY switch referred to in some above comments is a really good device. An audiophile friend of mine has one and is impressed with the improved performance of the streamed music. As I've experienced in my continuing digital-audio journey, minimizing jitter, noise and use of precision clocks all have their place in improving sound quality and thusly enjoyment.
That’s interesting, certainly not my experience with LAN cables swapping. I should attribute this to the fabulous cache feature in my Aurender. I know not to attempt swapping IC, speaker or USB while equipment is ON 🤣
If your Aurender is reading from the cache, it is not using the Ethernet cable at all, so how would switching cables make a different?
“I found, with several streamers, swapping Ethernet cables while the unit is on results in sound degradation.” @audphile1
That’s interesting, certainly not my experience with LAN cables swapping. I should attribute this to the fabulous cache feature in my Aurender. I know not to attempt swapping IC, speaker or USB while equipment is ON 🤣
“I found, with several streamers, swapping Ethernet cables while the unit is on results in sound degradation.” @audphile1
That’s interesting, certainly not my experience with LAN cables swapping. I should attribute this to the fabulous cache feature in my Aurender. I know not to attempt swapping IC, speaker or USB while equipment is ON 🤣
@lalitkI think my joke missed - what I meant is that you implicitly expressed confidence in my capabilities and focus...which may not be grounded in reality. 😂
Apologies, I did not intend to doubt your capabilities, methodology or focus. It was more like a cautionary advice drawn from my own mistakes and experiences 😊
@lalitk I appreciate your guidance and agree with your methodology....but you have unrealistic assumptions about my capacity for discipline and focus. 😂 I'm also getting closer to understanding why streamers can be $20K or why people could spend $4k on a switch or $2k on a filter. Dorothy, we're a long way from "bits is bits"!
I want to double-click on what @tonywingasaid, which countered my intuition, which is that adding another audiophile switch improved SQ. How can that be? I was assuming that any additional component that has a power cord can only be a net negative (even if miniscule, in the case of $4k switches). Unless good switches also ....filter ...or "regenerate" the signal, or have some property similar to impedence matching. I'm not arguing that something heard was not real, just trying to understand the theoretical basis.
Good points made by @lalitk. Just a small detail to add - when swapping Ethernet cables, power down your streamer (not in standby, but actually powered off). I found, with several streamers, swapping Ethernet cables while the unit is on results in sound degradation. Same applies to USB cables. This has been my experience. And in general, swapping any cables while the components are on, be it the interconnects or speaker cables, is just not worth the risk.
Thanks for the update. IME, ROON implementation is one of the main reason why end user would experience inconsistency in SQ. Every manufacturer or designer doing their best to integrate ROON and tweak their hardware for best possible outcome. As @audphile1pointed out, ROON SQ greatly varies due to the approach in the implementation by each manufacturer. Some manufacturers excelling and others couldn’t care less as long as they are meeting the ‘ROON endpoint’ specifications.
Coming back to your system, If I may make a suggestion to strategically introduce each change one at a time. Starting with LinkUp cable, let it break-in for atleast 250 hours before you introduce next upgrade, i.e. LHY switch. Once all the components are fully broken-in, then reverse the process for A/B comparison. Listen for extended periods, especially LAN cable. Streamers typically buffers or cache incoming bitstream so swapping LAN cables on short intervals may not allow you to discern any differences.
More info: I ran what it supposed to be a 75 foot (maybe it is a 100ft cable), CAT7 ethernet cable from the Audio grade network switch to my Apple TV box. That was a major improvement in the streaming picture on my OLED TV. The fact that putting the LHY switch- a second audio grade network switch downstream of this long cable run making the picture even better tells me these ethernet cables still pick up some level of noise.
Also, I tried my fiber optic link with LPS powered FMC’s and that added some graininess to the TV picture. So overall, I find the Audio grade switches to be the best option for music and video.
My LHY switch up and died on me a some weeks back. It was 10 months old at the time so still under warranty. With help from Singapore, I diagnosed the problem- shorted circuit on the ethernet card. They sent me a replacement board and it is back up and running. Meanwhile, I couldn’t be without music and I could definitely hear a difference without the LHY so I bought the English Electric 8 switch. I like the sound of it a little better than the LHY. Now I am keeping the EE8 in my audio system.
My plan was to sell the LHY after a month or two, to insure the repair held; but I inserted it at the TV end of my long ethernet cable from the EE8 to the TV. Surprisingly, it made an already great TV picture even better. So the LHY is staying.
I have no doubts now that these audio grade switches matter just as much as a DAC or an amp. I hope I never hear a $3000 switch in my system. That’s the thing about audio- our systems sound great, until we hear something better.
@mathiasmingusthanks for the follow up.
Oh yeah the LinkUp cable is really nice. Give it some time to settle though.
On Roon vs native streamer UI sound quality…in my experience with two dedicated streamers, Auralic Aries G1 and Lumin U1 Mini, I definitely heard the Auralic Lightning DS sound better than Roon, but with Lumin U1 Mini it was really close between the Lumin app and Roon. So I restarted my Roon subscription when I got the Lumin. I actually preferred the less “digital” presentation with Roon using U1 Mini as end point. That was a blessing because the Lumin app sucks.
So it all depends on a streamer and what has more synergy with your setup.
@lalitk et al, some partial empirical report-out as changes have occurred in my system:
1. As noted earlier, I found LHY switch was a small negative on sound quality (as compared to no switch, if one can avoid the need). I have not re-introduced it in the chain, but will test as you suggest.
2. ENO filter re-validated as a small improvement on sound quality.
3. Roon sounds worse than Manic Moose (native player, also known as Music Player Daemon or MPD) with Bryston BDP players. There was another thread where people were debating whether Roon did or could have negative impact on SQ. I hear some (at least as compared with BDP + Manic Moose combo, which may be a magic pairing). This is streaming Tidal lossless, PCM and feeding Lampizator DAC. Using Roon B Nucleus with an LHY LPS (LPS80VA). I was a Roon lover until I realized I would want MPD for critical listening...not sure I will want Roon for part-time use.
6. BDP3 shipping will be delayed a bit; all the above is using BDP2 still.
So still need to compare CAT cable and give the LHY switch another chance. I also changed routers, which adds variability to whatever I thought I heard before (never realized Roon could be a negative on SQ before, but I wasn't looking for it either).
You might notice that fredrik only shows up here on workdays to troll these forums. He is an IT minion working in the back of a windowless room and obviously bored, knows nothing about audio and doesn’t care. His pleasure is trolling and frustrating genuine lovers of audio and music.
@audphile1 sure, but if they bees don’t get that they are supposed to collect the sweet stuff to create honey, but want to have in-depth “discussion” on how you need the oil from deep in the earth, there is no point.
to discuss any topic, you need a foundational level of knowledge at the very least, and most on this forum know absolutely nothing about how streaming actually works, but want to make it seem as if they do by throwing out terms like UDP and RTSP, or nano currents, because they read a debunked white paper by EtherRegen or watched a video regurgitating the same white paper by Hans B.
Everyone begins and ends this part of the audio journey differently. What is the baseline from which to compare? Is it a redbook cd vs a streamed version? We then must obsess over whether the recording is consistent between the two samples?
I experienced some streaming improvement when I inserted a Network Acoustics Rubicon switch and NA Muon filter in my system. At the time I utilized an Innuos Zenith MkIII. A number of dacs came and went but overall, I “believe” I heard an improvement. I replaced the Innuos with the Grimm MU1 and just assumed it was optimized. I then received the Muon Pro setup and pulled the Muon and I heard no difference….then I “believe” I heard addition by subtraction…in other words, I removed the Muon, Muon Pro and noted no improvement or degradation. Heresy? Perhaps. Is the MU1 addressing the same things as the Muon? Perhaps. Differences in ethernet cables? Well, I’m not hearing any differences and yet I “believe” I did in my Innuos setup. @fredrik222is correct but sometimes he gets so frustrated with people that he may lose the audience.
No offense to anyone because we have to trust our own impressions but “hearing” one ethernet cable and then replacing it with a different cable and listening one week apart isn’t reasonable. I happen to “believe” that streamer quality and especially dac quality are where your opportunity for improvement resides. In my use case I am able to listen to an identical (to the extent I am able to validate) track streamed vs local file via AES into my dac vs the same tracks streamed over ethernet to my dac (as a Roon endpoint) vs a local file streamed over ethernet to my dac (once again, as a Roon endpoint). I do not hear a meaningful difference between the streamed vs local file over AES. Both are superior to streaming to my dac over ethernet be it a Qobuz track vs local file. Over ethernet, the local file is superior to the Qobuz stream.
What does all this mean? I believe the Grimm/Taiko types of server/streamers just clock better and use a superior interface (aes/ebu). YMMV but audiophile switches, cables and filters are system dependent…and in my current setup they are mostly redundant. Dont think that $5k in upstream ethernet filtration and gadgets are going to make a Gustard/Bluesound combo world class. They can be satisfying but for most people, buying a quality streamer and a quality dac will yield better results.
@lalitkyes that’s exactly my point. Based on how you tackled it, with adding the switch as absolutely the last thing, we’re pretty much on the same page.
“I do not think this is generally agreed upon” @fastfreight
If one thing we can agreed upon is our collective experiences. There are so many variables in concluding to a viewpoint on the effectiveness of a certain gear in our system. Speaking of @audphile1, maybe he has yet to experience a high end switch like Telegartner or he feels that kind of money best spent on attaining a better gear. We all have our priorities. IMO, tweaking your streaming with a switch should be last priority once you have sorted your DAC and Streamer. I didn’t start playing with switches until I have the base line established. Now that I’ve experienced how a switch like Telegartner elevates SQ in a highly resolve system, I simply cannot live without it. The bar is set so high by this switch that it leaves no desire to tinker with multiple tweaks.
Not sure what the Taiko switch is or what it is doing for $5,200 (technically it isn’t a switch with one in one out), but when we’re talking switches that the average schmucks will implement in their setup, best you can do is hope to not hurt anything. Hey if you get an improvement in the process, you can consider yourself lucky.
But one thing we can finally agree on, you and I, is the addition of switches. In every scenario I ever tried a switch caused degradation in sound quality.
I do not think this is generally agreed upon. Look at the Taiko Switch forum on What’s Best. It is 100% positively received as a great sonic improvement. (It is not actually a switch as it is one in and one out) but obviously expensive and well implemented. Reports on other quality or modified switches are similar. My ears report similar…it just (like most components) takes good design and implementation. I do agree that the better the streamer, the less improvement to be had, but I still hear improvement.
So interesting that no one argues using an amazing set of mono amps sounds better than a stereo amp. Everything matters, it is just a case of is it worth it to the individual or if they can hear it.
@audphile1no, you are wrong. Do a packet capture like I said. There is no such thing as a continuous stream, for any media, over the internet. It is just not possible. Buffering doesn’t have to be in memory, especially not when it comes to something so small as an audio stream, but typically it is.
Qobuz still wants the player to cache all tracks, but does not force 3rd party players to do so. You really don’t need to explain caching or buffering to me.
@fredrik222 there is no downloading into a buffer. Buffering will let you buffer some data to help manage the data stream to allow other processing to take place. Let’s say for example it will buffer 1.5min or even less of a 5min track. This allows the processing to do what it should be doing. It’s not an uninterrupted stream as t never should be. Typically buffering is done in memory.
Caching on the other hand will cache the entire result set and the streamer will process the data from the cache (much larger solid stare drive or larger memory area). Aurender, for example, leverages a 240GB cache. If you pause in the middle of the playlist that was cached earlier and come back to it an hour later, the same data will continue to reside there until the cache is cleared. The same exact concepts apply on the database either you use SQL, Oracle on premises or Google or AWS in the cloud. When the user runs a query, if caching is enabled, the results will be cached. So that you can run and rerun the same exact data query - the result will be pulled from cache and not from the database again. Unless the criteria changes. With buffering it will always be re-pulled.
But one thing we can finally agree on, you and I, is the addition of switches. In every scenario I ever tried a switch caused degradation in sound quality.
there is a very simple answer to your question, and it is the only answer, adding a switch in the chain can only deteriorate, it can never under any circumstance enhance. It is absolutely impossible and anyone telling you differently does not understand the technology.
a good switch only adds a bit of latency, a bad switch can cause frame drops and cause audible issues. that said, the switch needs to be pretty bad to cause issues for streaming services.
and on the topic of streaming, there is no such thing as continues stream, it is a series of downloads into a buffer. Any media over TCP/IP and Ethernet buffers. Regarding caching, at least according to Qobuz all players are supposed to cache, but some manufacturers want to fool their buyers by saving it is a better experience if you don’t cache, but that is just BS.
anyone with foundational knowledge of the topic can verify all of the above with a packet capture.
@cleeds ha? Dropped bits? Man who’s saying anything about dropped bits?
I’m talking about difference in sound quality that’s influenced more by a component design and implementation as well as parts quality that impact the sonics more than the network switches, or converting copper to fiber and back to copper, using switches and upgrading power supplies on routers, switches and fiber optic converters. This is the topic of this discussion. Let’s not highjack it.
@ozzy your setup makes sense - using fiber into Lumin that accepts it. One step convert copper to fiber optic and clean up the EMI and RFI on the copper data line.
Man, there is some different opinions. But we all have them.
I am using an EtherRegen in my computer room that converts the ethernet to fiber which then goes to my Lumin X1 in my audio room. Pretty much clutter free.
To me, the fiber was a game changer in sound quality. The music became calmer and more natural. I suppose the transceivers are important. I am using Finisar
I am using a network renderer in my DAC (Bricasti M3) as a Roon endpoint (Roon core duties are handled by Mac Mini) without an outboard dedicated streamer. I also occasionally use MConnect to bypass Roon and stream direct from streaming services (Qobuz and Tidal).
It seems to me that something is badly amiss if you suffer dropped bits while using that equipment with Qobuz, as you describe below, @audphile1. I'm not a Roon user, so I don't know if maybe that's where your problem is. But you should be getting bit-perfect delivery from Qobuz and if you're not, you be better served by fixing your network issues than anything else. If all of your wiring and connections are tight and secure, you might want to look at that DAC as the culprit.
"isn’t fast enough for streaming so error checking goes out the window, replaced by ’error correction’ meaning that if a bit is dropped, some value between the 2 adjoining bits is chosen (interpolation) "
@lalitk agreed. All you will get is clutter. Add linear power supplies to those fiber optic converters and get even more clutter. I have tried that fiber optic setup with several streamers that accept only copper network cables and actually don’t like the resulting sound. Besides it’s a spaghetti and a mess. I would just get a good Ethernet cable and call it a day. That’s all you really need - neat and organized with improved sound.
Fiber optics implementation is quite the opposite of a clutter free setup. Unless your router/modem and streamer offers fiber optic connectivity, you are simply creating clutter for minimal gains. IMHO, The Network Acoustics ENO and ENO Pro are the best passive Ethernet noise filters currently available.
@iseland cab you expand? You are suggesting convering IP data at the router and then back again, similar to the isolation approach in this (I think now relativelhy well known) video?
@mathiasmingus, I run two fairly inexpensive network switches in cascade between my CAT6 router and my ENO Filter System AG before my always to be ridiculed and mocked on this forum with derision Roon Nucleus music server, where the switches are powered by iFi Elite X SMPS units. For me the proof was in the listening. If you put a switch in your listening chain and things sound smoother and less digital, then keep it there for awhile. If not no biggie.
Yes the Eno is gone. I actually had it for a while and concluded I didn’t need it.
With it in my system the sound became a bit too mellow. I heard that their Muon is more dynamic and more resolving but I’m not planning to spend $2200 on the network filter when it can be invested into other more impactful links in the audio reproduction chain.
@audphile1I gathered that you dropped your Eno filter from the chain. When I got mine, I did a very cursory test, detected little difference, and assumed it must be helpful. I am reminded to go back and do a serious A/B and see if it is a net improvement or not. Potentially even less clutter, a la @fastfreight!
Hello,my personal experience with a Bell router is…..Heimdall 2 Ethernet cable to Synergistic Research switch… to Muon Pro filter …. To Aqua LinQ streamer …. To Weiss 501 DAC. This combination is an amazingly level of no audible noise resulting in hours of no fatigue 🎶 .
@cleeds I have owned Auralic Aries G1 and Lumin U1 Mini. Currently I am using a network renderer in my DAC (Bricasti M3) as a Roon endpoint (Roon core duties are handled by Mac Mini) without an outboard dedicated streamer. I also occasionally use MConnect to bypass Roon and stream direct from streaming services (Qobuz and Tidal).
The M3 has two toroidal transformers running digital and analog sections of the unit. There’s nothing ti fiddle with and I don’t have any plans to do so. The point I was trying to make is it all depends on the design and implementation. There are excellent streamers that utilize buffering and equally good sounding units that leverage caching.
Here’s the M3 with its hood popped (this isn’t my unit, pic from hifi news).
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