@r27y8u92
Thank you for your post. This discussion is not about CD/Streaming vs Vinyl. Vinyl is mostly about tactile experience and superior sound depending on your investment. Which format sounds better is a matter of debate, in my experience all available formats are capable of hair-raising sound. Streaming files greatly vary in SQ as content provider is focusing on making more files accessible than quality of the file source.
We get picky when we are paying premium price for a recording (album). I don’t buy every new release on CD or Vinyl. A new re-release of my favorite album only gets my $$$ when it is sourced and meticulously transferred from master tapes. To me, that’s what makes spinning a record or CD and ripped file worthwhile.
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@r27y8u92 Contributions regularly made on subjects such as this, are made by individual heavily invested over time in their owned Source and Vinyl LP Collection as a means to be entertained.
Proposing that such an investment is to be no longer of importance as a means of entertainment and Superseded by a different Superseded Source, or Superseded by the most relevant Source Type available today. Which the Jury seems to be out for a long time on whether the relevant Source today is capable to prove itself as a viable alternative. Does seem to be a very very narrow objective on the matter, when being entertained is the end objective.
It is almost as one is suggesting a Monochrome Image is not able to be as emotionally stimulating as a Colour Image. Have a look at the Photography from ’Sebastião Salgado’ and get back on how this experience was perceived.
Does an individual having $20K+ invested in a CD Source and CD Collection and is inquiring abouts a replacement Laser for the CD Source. Is it a acceptable approach to suggest the Source and Recorded Music Collection are abandoned to be Superseded by a Streaming Source?
Cartridges on their nature are very environmentally friendly, and this attractive point is extended even further, when an individual adopts the methods under discussion in a subject like this, the Cart’ in use can have a lifetimes usage. the referred to Delta677, has been keeping Cart’s ongoing in use, where some models being given the Lazarus Treatment have a usage life behind them of 40-50 Years.
Individuals dedicated to their Vinyl Source and their Vinyl LP collection are as a result of believing the reports being offered. Experiencing very high quality levels of recorded music replays and as a result of dedicated long term ownership are not creating the negative Environmental Impact that is associated with Typical Consumerism Habits, where the Wheel is dumped, to be Superseded by the latest reinvention of the wheel.
I get it, that there are individuals who like to have their recorded music consolidated into a file of ’X’ amount of Bytes, some even having the embedded metadata to give a visual description, like a Virtual Album Cover. Whatever stimulates the value of the entertainment being sought. Intending on using these files that are opened up to create a period of amusement for the individual, is one of a variety of methods that has become popular, but not the superior method.
I certainly am not going to suggest those who adopt the practice of listening to recoded music stored as a file as a means to be entertained are incorrect in their practices. I do sense in a few years time that some of these individuals 'as a compulsiveness in their behaviour to have a new means in place to be entertained, will be the first in the queue to buy into the Tech that is developed that Supersedes File Stored Recorded Music and Streaming.
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I don't understand why some people still spend their effort to the expensive phono cartridge. The LP becomes sound-poorer as played (physical contact so wearing out). No matter with excellant phono system, the sound becomes worse as you play the LPs. CD sound is way better than that of LPs, which (CDs) are being replaced by streaming musics.
I do have many, many LPs. I seldom play them. Why? Most important LPs were already converted to digitals (stored into my computer, so no need to worry about playing frequency).
If truely brand new LPs are produced, it is worth to keep the whole phono system. The new LPs shoud be all analog from the recording to final LP-pressing. Otherwise, the new LPs are digital-to-analog version!
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What is overlooked in many discussions had about retip/refurbishment/rebuild of a Cart', is that OEM Services and Third Party Services are seen to choose the wording in their descriptions where ' Equivalent ' is the key word. A term 'Identical' or 'Like for Like' is not used.
' Equivalent ' in relation to parts selected to be used, can have an extremely broad interpretation of what these parts are? Across the different services being used, it is likely to be very inconsistent in what is to offered.
I recollect, I believe from a Thread started by 'nandric', that Lyra made it known they have a Cart' Model that is always available to be rebuilt to the identical OEM Model that was produced?
I have experiences of original with varying usage hours vs modified vs rebuilt of same Cart' models. I enjoyed the experiences undertaken and especially the findings/evaluations.
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If your cartridge costs $500 (like the legendary and wonderful Denon 103R) then you can afford to replace it once the stylus is worn. But if you have a really expensive cartridge ($5K) then it pays to have it re-tipped. I had Groovetickler retip my expensive cartridge, and I also had my inexpensive AT33MONO cartridge upgraded with a boron/micro ridge stylus which put this on par with mono cartridges costing 3x as much.
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The topic of the gob of glue surrounding Namiki/Orbray cantilevers and others comes up pretty often. Clients send me “What’s that?????!!!!!” photos with disparaging remarks about retipping rather often, having no idea that the brand new cartridges are the exact same.
My take on this is that major manufacturers use this method along with half height low profile diamonds typically 0.3mm tall while a standard pass-through stylus diamond length is 0.6mm. Reasonably assume that the epoxy, which is perfectly rigid and forms an excellent bond together with a low profile diamond is lighter than a full length diamond installed/mortised into a slot or hole in a boron or gem cantilever. If the epoxy does not interfere with the contact edges of the stone, the lighter assembly is the better one.
A stronger joint is of course better for sound, but I don’t know if the glue joint is stronger or weaker than a mechanical joint. Some evidence is that it’s weaker because the glued diamonds fall out when exposed to a knock whereas the mechanical ones break the cantilever—at least with boron. With sapphire or ruby, it could go either way.
In any case, from my perspective, I think it’s an advantage if a diamond pops off leaving a cantilever intact because then all I have to do is replace the diamond like with like and go about my life. A broken cantilever is a chore to repair and exposes the naked cartridge to the risk of damage while being repaired. I’ve never damaged one yet, but replacing a diamond alone is a lot easier on the nerves.
Needlestein, aka Groovetickler
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Mijo, I was under the impression that these re-tippers buy their cantilevers with various styli pre-mounted, for installation on our various cartridges. In other words, I would not have thought the amount of fastener and its placement are choices made at SS. Now, if you ask them to replace only the stylus while preserving the original cantilever (my preference when possible), then yes, SS (or any other retipper) must orient the stylus and apply the fastener. In the case of my Grace Ruby, I had both the cantilever and stylus replaced, because I bought the cartridge sans any cantilever at all (which made it very cheap, of course). Like I think I said, although the amount of "glue" is disconcerting to look at under my ’scope, the resulting cartridge handily outperforms my other Grace Ruby, which still bears its original cantilever and (elliptical) stylus. What I am probably hearing is the difference between a new OCL stylus and a used elliptical stylus.
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Neither Ortofon, nor Soundsmith manufactures their own stylus/cantilever assemblies, cactus excepted. The birds nest adhesive is typical of Orbray (formerly Namiki) mounts on boron stylii. https://orbray.com/en/product/jewel/product/onlineshop_record.html
Both Ogura and Geiger have a cleaner look to their boron mounts. The cultured crystal cantilevers are through hole laser drilled.
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@lalitk Don't let @lewm fool you. He worked at Wuhan  (just kidding)
Lew that rather large drop of glue is a Soundsmith trademark. If you look at this post and compare mounting techniques, Ortofon uses a similar method. https://imgur.com/gallery/stylus-photomicrographs-hmTaO0m The resin used is similar to what is used to hold carbon fiber strands together and is very light and strong. Notice that Lyra and MySonicLab use an alternative method mounting there stylus in a forked cantilever with much less glue, but the stylus is surrounded in metal. This method certainly does a better job at controlling Zenith, but I could not tell you which is better from an effective mass standpoint. The diamond cantilever of the Ortofon and cactus spine of the hyperion leave no other option. Nonetheless all four are fine sounding cartridges. I ordered the Jico SAS/B stylus for the V15 VMR and will post a picture here. I will be very surprised if it is as clean as these high end styluses. Most of us are use to seeing the swaged styluses of aluminium cantilevers. The aluminum cantilever is compressed and angled at the very tip and the hard stylus pressed right through the soft aluminum. This is relatively easy to do but not as reliable from an orientation perspective. I have seen zenith and SR angles all over the place.
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Lalitk, Thank you for your kind words. I do nothing now, except occasionally I consult; I am retired. Why I can spend so much time on this forum. Too much. Although I trained clinically in internal medicine and infectious disease, my career was at the lab bench trying to figure stuff out. Did some vaccine development en passant, which I hope some day will bear fruit.
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I've used Soundsmith several times and always been thrilled with the results. If you have one of their cartridges retipping is very affordable at about 20% the cartridge price.
I usually buy gently used and get a cartridge I couldn't normally afford.
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Dear @vetsc5 : Rebuilt/refurbished vs re-tipper. Here some of us couls have a little confusion because both terms are different.
Rebuild means: carrridge re-coil, new suspension , new cantilever/stylus and some time even output pin connectors when normally re-tipper means cantilever + stylus.
Forme no matter what rebuild/refurbished is forbiden in a cartridge and cartridge second hand re-tipped too.
That is different when the re-tip is made to a cartridge I own and that I know perfetly his quality level performance.
@inagroove that's exactly my first hand multiple experiences with.
@viridian , agree with you. Normally I ask to the re-tipper to change only the stylus and the cantilever when it's totally necessary.
R.
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Interesting topic -Rebuilt vs "mildly" used. Rebuilt IF, you know the rebuilder is experienced and skilled in this delicate craft and has proven results such as customer reviews. Industry recognition would also be a plus. If rebuilder is local to you, it might be prudent to visit the shop and check out their work. In a perfect word they may even have a TT or two set up to hear the quality of the rebuilds that you are considering. If not local does rebuilder have an active website so customers can communicate with them. As for used if there is a source that you trust, such as audiophile forums, Audio dealers, etc. that might be an option. In either case Happy Hunting. Ps; there are some quality new cartridges available at affordable prices if you shop around
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@lewm
Virologist and Audiophile….that’s a deadly combination :-) Jokes apart, nothing but respect for everything you do from diagnosis to prevention.
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Inagroove, if you saw glue covering the stylus tip, then there’s no doubt you’re correct, and you were justified if you sent the cartridge back for a re-retip. My Grace Ruby was retipped with sapphire/OCL by SS, and it has a disconcertingly large gob of epoxy holding stylus to cantilever. However it sounds great. (MD here with 40 years as a virologist at NIH. I’ve got an Olympus scope to look at styli.)
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I agree entirely with @lewm. It is impossible to know what you are getting with anyone but the original manufacturer. Soundsmith is a safe bet for retipping as they have the experience of a manufacturer although it is still impossible to know what you are getting unless you could compare the cartridges before and after.
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to lewm
Thanks for the questions...
YES, in this instance I do have the capacity to just the proper amount of glue that should be used.
I have working in science for over 40 years, including microscopy. Under magnification, 3 of the 4 styluses were attached to their carts with ~ same small amount of glue (only a slight amount was visible), while the 4th cart had a GLOB OF HARD GLUE protruding and obscuring the stylus. It was clear that the glue was interfering with tracking. Zenith angle was irrelevant due to this issue.
No disrespect to Johnathan Carr, but my direct-experience upgrading lower-priced cartridges (not Lyra's forte), is VERY beneficial. If anyone wants to try my 'upgrades', the styluses were upgraded from spherical to micro-line stylus, and the cantilever was upgraded from aluminum to boron. The work was done by SoundSmith. I am 75% happy with the results (3 of 4). Was it worth the cost? I was willing to send four used carts, so Yes.
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I guess you are talking about MC carts, as replacement stylus in MM carts are a non-issue, IMHO. I had my SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC* rebuilt by SoundSmith after a mishap, and I have zero issues with that.
With antique carts, I would rather consider them display items.
Re slightly used, Audible Elegance just posted a video on used carts and strongly advises against them. Particularly the degrading suspension is an issue, and not perfectly aligned, partially worn stylus can damage records.
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Inagroove, you have some expertise that allows you to judge the proper amount of glue used to fasten a stylus to a cantilever? Did you also look at zenith angle, when you examined that cartridge under magnification? You might be right about the glue, but it also could be something else.
Jonathan Carr (Lyra) who is regarded here as a major guru, wrote on this forum that it is wise to replace like with like, when it comes to cantilever and stylus, if you want to preserve the SQ of a cartridge. Because the other structural and functional elements of the cartridge were chosen with the OEM cantilever and stylus in mind. Thus, an “upgrade” may not necessarily be in the up direction.
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@cey
Appreciate the list of reliable vendors, will keep this info for future reference.
@inagroove
Agreed, results of rebuild may vary and glad to hear your experience were positive.
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OP states:
"much of the original design attributes are gone"
Results vary... I have had 4 identical cartridges retipped by the same vendor. Three sounded great, one sounded so-so...
Why? All carts were UPGRADED to a better cantilever and stylus-shape. The three 'good' carts were produced distinctly better SQ, the fourth cart did not. Why? I look at it under a strong lens, and the stylus was attached with too much glue.
Give upgrades a try, and work with your vendor to ensure the process is acceptable.
+1 dinov
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Have never had an issue and in some cases they are better.
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stateside, if they been retipped by one of the big 3 -- VAS, soundsmith or groovetickler, then yes theyre worth it.
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Regarding Manufacturers using newer methods or parts. I had an interesting experience of 'older' and very similar upgraded versions. I have an Ortofon MC Anna Diamond that I bought used from a dealer I trust, but partly on the basis that the price paid plus Ortofon's refurb cost* was less than the price of the new cartridge, so I figured if I got 'half' life cycle and a full cycle on refurb I'd done ok to good.
But when I upgraded my main room turntable and the old one went to the lounge I decided to not put a cheaper cartridge and ordered an MC Diamond that has the Multi Wall Carbon Nanotube technology they developed and used on the Verismo. Whilst I had heard one, I hadn't heard it comparatively on my system and replaced the Anna (which had sounded great) on the new deck and I was impressed by an immediate improvement, better than I had heard on the demo.
So if Ortofon want to use that new nanotube technology when they eventually rebuild my Anna (and I have had well over a half life with it so far) I for one would be very happy to have the 'new' process included. In fact I plan to ask them for it.
*which is described in full and is basically a clean out of everything from the titanium shell and then a rebuild to the production process.
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When it comes to most moving coil cartridges "retipping" is a misnomer. They simply hand you a new cartridge in exchange for the old one. What happens to the old one is a mystery. My guess is that most of them find the round file. I personally would never have a pricey MC like Raul's Lambda SL replaced by anyone other than the original manufacturer.
Vintage cartridges are another story. I have tended to shy away from these as I was never impressed with their build quality. Now, companies like Jico are manufacturing replacement styluses for legacy cartridges with modern materials. Sentimentality finally got ahold of me and I purchased 2 Shure V 15V cartridge bodies with the intent of getting Jico styluses for them. Back in the day the V15 was the cartridge to own and I wonder how it stacks up against modern cartridges. Curiosity killed the cat.
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Another reason to prefer the factory is the parts selection process. A factory can afford to order many parts and use the best only for its most expensive cartridges, and sell or throw away the dregs. A retipper, perhaps not.
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Agree with those above who have had good experience with Soundsmith rebuilds. Peter rebuilt a Lyra Skala for me a year ago and I’ve been very happy it. It is a beautiful, musical experience listening to records now.
Once he gets the cart he does an assessment of what needs to be done and what options you have. He is very clear on cost up front, so it’s a user friendly experience. Plus my wife was very happy that I spent under $1k instead of $9k+ on a new Lyra.
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@mulveling, @lewm
Thank you gentleman for your well thought out responses. Good to know there are some reliable resources that can rebuild your treasured cart with same materials (if available). I did liked your comment about outcome of such rebuild as hybrid design with good results but different. The owner who has spent considerable amount of time with original build is in a position to judge whether rebuild is worth keeping around. This makes it a worthwhile endeavor on high priced carts or those no longer in production.
Welcome to the wonderful world of vinyl playback :-)
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I think a distinction must be drawn between retipping by sawing off the cantilever and glueing a new cantilever/stylus to the stub, and retipping by leaving the original cantilever intact and replacing only the diamond stylus. In the former, the mass of the moving system, and the resonant characteristics of the cantilever are altered. In the later not so much, if at all.
Now some cartridges, Lyra and Koetsu come to mind, have proprietary stylus cuts, so those will never sound exactly the same, but most stylus cuts are generic and supplied by Orbray, Ogura, Geiger, and a few others.
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Always had excellent experiences rebuilding carts with Soundsmith. Re-tip with or without new cantilever. However that is starting from an original cart. I would not buy a used rebuilt cart. No way to know how they were handled and how much use they got.
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Dear @lalitk " would you buy a completely rebuilt cart vs a slightly used cartridge…"
Completely rebuilt... certainly not and slightly used cartridge could depends of its " vintage " because normally designer/manufacturers of cartridges over short time makes small/tiny changes in the same model with out knowing the market/customers and they did not advertise about because some of them think that the changes do not deserve a MK2 version or the like. In the other side if the owner put on sale because he now own a better cartridge model in the line or even a different top rated cartridge could be worth to buy that slightly used cartridge when normally you can buy it for the 50% of its retail price, sometimes even with higher discount.
At the end everything depends on each customer, in my case I’m out to buy any new top cartridge or slightly used because my long first hand experiences already fulfill my cartridge expectations and I know for sure that speaking of today top rated cartridges in reality several of them are not really better but different or only in one quality performance level characteristic is better.
New top cartridges are only " new models " but at the end it’s more of the same. The only example I have of a new model are with the Lyra Lambda SL that in true has better differences not only against its past lines but against the competition.
I listen briefly the Fugga ( this is only an example of what I’ posting ) and not in my system but I owned the original Miyabi and listened the 47 and my vote go for Miyabi. Btw, today is weird that with a " top " cartridge with high price label the designers had better options that aluminum in the cantilever and stylus shape but they took the Miyabi road in this regards.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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lalitk, You don't need the original designer to replace the cantilever/stylus assembly with parts identical in physical characteristics to those of the original. The question is whether such parts are still available, if the cartridge is very old. For one example, one of my favorite cartridges, the B&O MMC1, came with what appeared to be under my microscope a hollow tubular sapphire cantilever, and if memory serves, the stylus was inserted across the hollow tube without glue. (I am relying on memory, because I accidentally tore the cantilever out of my MMC1 while trying to engage the built on stylus guard.) The replacement, done by Soundsmith because of Peter Ledermann's expertise in B&O, is a solid sapphire rod and a glued stylus, with a very visible gob of glue holding the stylus in place. Not at all "like new". And yet, not cheap.
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My thoughts against non-manufacturer rebuilds / retips have softened somewhat over time - of course partially out of necessity, with more old masters passing on (more reports to come in the next several years, I’m sure). At some point I’ll need to have a Koetsu rebuilt by 3rd party (had a few rebuilds done by Koetsu) - and that’s OK; life goes on. I’ve seen a couple 3rd party rebuilders using what looks like the exact same Japanese-sourced cantilever and stylus assembly used by Koetsu, and these should be a strong consideration (Ana Mighty Sound in France, Sửa Kim Than Cartridges in Vietnam). That said, I probably wouldn’t mind a Fritz Gyger on boron either. Groovetickler in USA also seems to do great work. Also check out "Delta667" on the vinylengine forums. He is a true fanatic in exploration of cartridge design & rebuilding! There is so much to learn from the massive "Cartridge Close-Ups - Show Your Shots!" thread, and people there even get along!
Once you replace original parts with something different, you go down the road of making a hybrid, and the spectrum of "good, but different". So what parts matter? Ortofon’s Kontrapunkt and Cadenza series (Kontra being the predecessor of Candezna) offer an interesting exploration into this question - each line had 4 models with basically the same motor generator and body (with some minor differences), but featuring different combinations of cantilever and stylus. Given my experience with these models, plus experience with different Koetsus, I’d place the magnet type and then cantilever material as having the highest sonic impact. Next is body type. With various Koetsu stones being very similar - that differentiation is more subtle than outright changing body material types (like from wood to stone or metal). Coil wire and stylus - I’d rate these as more subtle changes to the sound.
Of course the coil (windings and armature), damper, and yoke arrangement probably have largest impact on sound, but that is probably harder to isolate for a controlled comparison. I had a vintage Koetsu Onyx (non-platinum) rebuilt by Koetsu, and it sounded quite different - both to how it sounded before, and next to a modern Onyx Platinum. The older coils sounded more lush and "romantic".
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I might consider it, but only if there was some kind of guarantee and I'd be able to return it if dissatisfied.
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“Only when you know what the cartridge is supposed to sound like can you say if it sounds much the same when retipped.”
@dogberry
Well said, I couldn’t agree with you anymore! I see so many carts being sold after being retipped at a price not worth paying for. I rather invest in a new cart available in same ball park as used prices.
@lewm +1000 on factory retips. Unfortunately, some of the original designers either passed away or no longer in business. Koetsu is one of the prime example.
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“Listening” is a worthless measure of whether a retipped cartridge resembles its original self in the first place. One can at best ascertain that the retip is pleasing in the here and now. Aural memory simply isn’t that good. At best one can hope that a formerly great cartridge retains some of its characteristics in its new guise. If the retipper replaced like with like, there’s a best chance of that being true, e.g., same cantilever material and same stylus shape as original. Maybe that’s why factory retips are best.
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I have had cartridges restored to glory by retipping/rebuilding, and perhaps I'm lucky in not having had a bad experience. All the same, I wouldn't buy a retipped/rebuilt cartridge second hand, as I'd wonder if it sounded anything like it used to do when new. It's unfortunate that buying a new cartridge is a bit of a crap shoot, as few of us have the chance to listen beforehand. You end up relying on reviews, both paid and from users in forums. Only when you know what the cartridge is supposed to sound like can you say if it sounds much the same when retipped.
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