Ray Charles - "Rap is not music"

Ray Charles made music in another genre.  To say Rap isn't music isn't music is idiotic.  Just because it doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean it's not what it is.  I could care less for 95% of hard rock & roll but it's still music.  Enjoy what you enjoy and please don't piss on someone else joy.  Just an insane thread with opinions at the day that don't matter.  Tell the rap artist who's making millions that he's not making music and it doesn't appeal to anyone. Yeah, laughing all the way to the bank.  You wish you had the talent to do what they do.

@davedead +1

@audiovideonirvana no problem. and no chance of me acting adolescent at all anytime I can weave a "That's what she said" into a conversation...

Couldn't agree more with Ray!

Does Hip Hop fall into the same category?

At best, Rap is poetry intoned to a steady, repeating beat and, for the life of me, I can't make out what is being said, most of the time! Not my cup of tea! However, a lot of the younger folk like it. So, to each their own! Whatever floats your boat!

There is a great Bruce Willis movie (can't remember which one) where the bad guys finally catch old Bruce string him up by his arms with chains in some sort of dungeon. These bad guys want some sort of information from him but Bruce, ever the hero of course, just won't talk. During this torture scene, one of the bad guys, in desperation, says something like: "What do we need to do to finally make you talk?" Bruce responds with something like:  "Play some Rap." That about sums up why I need to hit the mute button on the remote when I hear it on the TV.

I love some pretty shitty music, full of archaic sexual innuendo, played to a very predictable repetitive musical structure, but I love it anyway.  That’s the Blues I’m talking about.  My Swing Era parents thought Jimi Hendrix was horrendous.  I personally was appalled by AC/DC at first.  I cannot deny the craft and skill that some rappers demonstrate, but as an art form of music, no thanks.  I like my sexual  references kept innuendo, and violence against women implied, not glorified.  I also prefer people to play, not sample.  Call me old fashioned.

Ray Charles…one of our greatest national treasures, but a whole generation or two adores this music, as I did his. But I do associate its rise in popularity with a certain decline in civility, engagement in intelligent discourse, obsession with celebrity, and worship of materialism.  So there’s that.

"But I do associate its rise in popularity with a certain decline in civility, engagement in intelligent discourse, obsession with celebrity, and worship of materialism.  So there’s that.'

Sounds like what was said about 80's hair metal or 70's glam rock, etc...

As often was the case, davedead, Jerry could cut through many topics & give a clear analysis in a very simple form. He was a highly talented musician who could play different styles of music at a high level & I respect his opinion on music.

It's clear from his interviews he was highly intelligent & it's unfortunate drugs got the better of him several times throughout his amazing life or, maybe, it was because of the drugs that his talent shone through so brightly? 

Many great musicians had a similar downfall / strength.......

I don’t think you can categized an entire class - rap is varied. That being said, I think it is fair to define what qualifies as music and what does not. Very subjective and a bit meaningless, but why not. Once those definitions are in place, sounds can be either music or not music. I have a teen son so I am exposed to lots of new "sounds" and some if it is not, IMO, music. For me, some rap is not music and some of the electronics (not sure what to even call it) is not music - may be call it random industrial sounds. Some rap and techno is great stuff though and is on my play list. Some rap does not make the play list even though I like the beat or sound of it because in some songs the lyrics are disgusting and/or violent. Ruins another wise interesting track.

I wanted to add that music does not exist in a vacuum.  It is a product of the artist and is influenced by their environment.  The link between the music and the artist and their environment is fascinating.  Compare classical to old time country music in the US to rap.  They both used what was available and what was popular is based on what appealed to the masses or the decision makers.  Segments of society choose/select the popular/famous music - so it is also a representation of that segment of society.  When we look at popular music it is a reflection of what appeals to that segment of society, what type of music could be make (instruments /training available) and music training/tutoring available.    

Every generation feels the need to be more outrageous than the last just to get the attention they "deserve".

I personally don't get rap and it seems to me to be more ethnically based than not.

Can someone please explain the difference between rap and hip-hop...I may like hip-hip if I could identify it.

Regards,

barts

It’s ok to have opinions. Just how we each feel and it’s mature to allow opinions without judgement and ridicule. I think rap is not good music and the message found in most of it is both dangerous and destructive for society. Not all of it, but the majority of it unfortunately. 

@shutupuface I can’t tell if your intention in quoting the definition of “music” was to refute someone saying rap is “music,” or to refute those who say it is not “music.”  
If it was the latter, bravo.  
If it was the former, then something quite embarrassing was just committed.

It’s amazing to me that anyone would outright dismiss the existence of something they merely don’t like. There are a million things I don’t like, but I can’t just say that Easy Cheese is “not food” just because I find it repulsive. It’s not a matter of debate. It is “food.” Of course it’s “food.”  
I agree with Scorsese that franchise/comic book movies suck. I wouldn’t say they “aren’t cinema.” Of course they’re technically “cinema.” They just really, really suck.

Are people willing to be consistent in their definition of “music?”

Is, say, Bo Diddley’s 1956 song “Who Do You Love,” a song where 100% of its verses are “rapping,” 100% of it is one chord, and aside from one beat of one measure in the chorus (the little fill after ‘whooo do you love…’) the percussion remains static/unchanged through the song, “music?” 

The criteria cited in deeming rap “not music” would then cause an enormous swath of our musical history to be deemed “not music” as well.

@davedead “I certainly find it difficult to imagine that Jerry had an intellectual blindness to any genre of music”

The great thing is you don’t have to “imagine” anything.  
You just posted a video wherein he explicitly demonstrates his intellectual blindness

I respect Ray Charles. But besides what he said about rap, he said some other things. Here are a few others:

"Racism and poverty. Two scourges that I have known since early in my life. Sadly, while things are better for many, there are those who still suffer the indignities of both.

Until we find a way to fix these problems, there will always be unrest in our society and world.”

Because I'm a black man, whatever affects my people affects me. This means that the greatest handicap I've had - and still have - is my color. 

If the blues ever gets sung by a White person, it'll be a Jew who does it. They've known what it is to be somebody else's footstool.

What I never understood to this day, to this very day, was how white people could have black people cook for them, make their meals, but wouldn't let them sit at the table with them. How can you dislike someone so much and have them cook for you? Shoot, if I don't like someone you ain't cooking nothing for me, ever.

Until every man in America can get any job he's qualified for or any house he's got the money to buy, regardless of his color, I'll always be handicapped. 

People want more and more and more, and some seem to have a need to look down on others, and they're bothered when no one's around to look down upon."
 

@tylermunns Ok, so I guess you found the road from rap to music that Jerry couldn't. Fair enough...

Rap is considered music not because of its merit, but because there is no other place to put it.  In my opinion, and based on its impact among a certain segment of society, rap is a particularly focused medium for social degeneracy.  This is by design.  Ask the real pioneers of Rap and Hip Hop and they'll tell you how their message was usurped and changed by the monied interest.   

@ab2ab What is this “impact on society” you speak of? How can some music “impact society,” and what does such “impact” entail?

“…rap is a particularly focused medium for social degeneracy…by design.”

Honestly, where does one come up with this stuff? “By design?” What??

”…medium for social degeneracy.” So much vagueness and empty rhetoric.

I honestly don’t know what you’re trying to say, but I do know what it sounds very similar to: the laughably narrow minded comments on rock and roll made by people  in the 1950s.  
You know, those comically reactionary, silly comments we saw people making about rock n roll in the 1950s  
You know, those things we laugh at.

Most rap is heard out of vehicle speakers over-amped to severe distortion, bass-heavy to the point of pneumatic force on the stomachs of the involuntary listeners.

RAP is a way for people with no ability to sing to get into the music business. It's just alota yamma.

@ab2ab I quote from you: " and based on its impact among a certain segment of society, rap is a particularly focused medium for social degeneracy."

Are you for real? I mean, grow a pair and just say "Black people are degenerate" already and stop hiding behind the clumsy euphemistic labels. Stop being a cliche cowardly bigot.

Plus, you’ve been a member here for almost 8 years and have contributed a grand total of 19 times- most of them snarky, dimwitted whinging.

@parnelligq You’re not much better. besides your ignorant overgeneralization, you’ve contributed a grand total of 17 responses since you joined 3 years ago. But apparently a chance to cluelessly generalize really inspires you.

@charles7 really? Is this based on careful social study or on what you want to believe? Or maybe on your own experience? I mean, I could say the same thing about Boomer rock.

@davedead Yes, Jerry was an iconic and inspiring soul (though I always felt Bobby could convey raw emotion better), but I wouldn't assume that what he says is the be all end all of musical observation. He was a flawed person like all of us. 

I am afraid Ray Charles got this somehow wrong. 

The point is that rap music is sold at record stores too as other genres.

If you do not like it is another matter so skip the section.

I get along fine with friends and co-workers. I'm as much intitaled to my opinion as either you or Ray. I am not required to conform to your opinion. If you can't handle different responses than your own then I'm not the one with a problem. 

@simao +1000 for calling out the racism.

An item of interest might be "monogenre-ism" vs "multigenre-ism"? Which is my way of asking how broad is the musical interest of an individual, or group?

One CAN be a Mozart fan.  AND, an Elvis fan.  AND, a Beatles fan.  There are no conflicts here.  A little SRV tossed in on a good day might be okay, too.  Is this a typical "profile" of the musical diverse?

That being said, have we explored some of the music we "don't like", and before passing judgement, determined if there are other music interests of that individual?  And, is this the typical group dynamic for those supporting the genre?   Perhaps, they are musically "diverse.  Or, perhaps, locked into one genre, thus marooned from other musical experiences?

And, are some of us "monogenre-ic" with the music WE love as well?

I was about to post this very sentiment when I read your post @acman3 .

*** Why is it insulting to consider Rap poetry instesd of music? ***

Feeling and saying that rap is not music is not an insult at all when it simply doesn’t meet one’s definition of such. There is plenty of poetry that is on an artistic level far higher than a lot of what undeniably is music. So what is the problem? Seems to me that the problem is that those who bristle at the expressed notion that it is not music, but is poetry instead have a bias against poetry. It is THEY who need to be more open minded.

The argument ought not to be whether or not it is music, but whether or not it is art, which it most certainly is, and a highly marketable art form at that, having gained and maintained a place of prominence in entertainment media for some 45 years.

Ok folks -

We are 75 posts deep on this discussion.

Has the discussion moved the greater understanding forward at all?  Anyone's underlying beliefs shift at all?

That's what I thought.  Let's just put it down and go back to rolling tubes and swapping out cartridges and putting cables on risers, stuff we all agree on.  Kindly use the rubber bullets when you take aim.  😉

Happy Saturday,

Rich 

@simao

 It seems like you have  real problem with anyone who doesn't agree with YOUR opinion. Trying to put down someone for the number of posts they made?Give me a break! You obviously have posted alot. I don't think that makes you an "authority" on anything. You are just very "opinionated".  Now, you have thrown out the "race card" because someone doesn't agree with you. 

So, just to be clear, the question was "Do you agree or disagree with Ray Charles comment about Rap not being considered " music".

As someone who learned to play the piano at age 5, drums at age 10, played in the band, orchestra, marching band etc.and a couple of garage bands in the 60's early seventies, I learned to play instruments, read music, harmonize vocals, and keep a steady beat. Now, if you look up the definition of " musician" you will find that entails being able to have some degree of mastery of an instrument.

I admire a great number of musicians,  who have a great deal of musicianship, vocal range, etc. And, FYI many just happen to be black.

With that being said, I don't see that it takes alot of "musicianship" or "vocal range" to be a "rap singer".  Only the ability to rhyme (not necessarily poetically), and keep a beat.  The fact that women are more than referred to in degrading terms ( " ho" *itches") does little to endear my ears to that ilk.

HOWEVER, if you, or others deem that music, be my guest.

You are welcome to listen to whatever you like.

BTW, because Ray Charles didn't consider rap music, are you calling him a racist?

@simao @tylermunns  - I am going to let the subject go because both of you are woefully ignorant and obviously have no real exposure to Rap music and the very real culture it produced.  Or, you're some sort of woke troll looking for any opportunity to engage your online, recreational outrage.

But for the record, I am a BLACK man who has seen first hand how this "music" has perpetuated a deleterious impact on the minds and communities of those who're projecting the violent, mindlessly-materialistic, anti-social, drug-glorifying, misogynistic and depictions of murder message this "music" conveys.  This is, unfortunately, undeniable.  Have you heard of Drill or Trap (RAP) music?  I know you haven't so Google it because this is what most are actually hearing.  Its influence in social media is remarkable.

Now head over to YouTube and search the following:  "Former record exec exposes the rap industry"  and "Charleton White: YouTube promotes black rappers killing each other but shut me down" (start at the 2:15 minute mark).  And while there, see what KRS-One says about commercialized rap & hip hop -- how the positive message of the people had to go underground, while the music industry pushed violence & gang culture.  Please learn how NWA (Niggaz Wit Attitudes) gangster rap was industry backed to push the positive, political message of Public Enemy into the background.  There was no interest in empowering the people, especially during a time when the U.S. government (CIA) & Nicaraguan Contras where flooding the inner cities with crack cocaine.  No. Public Enemy's Fight the Power, would not suffice.

Here's an interesting excerpt from Sociological Forum, Vol. 24. No. 3. September 2009 Narratives in Popular Culture: Depictions of Homicide in Rap Music
by Gwen Hunnicutt and Kristy Humble Andrews

"Homicide is a rare event, but depictions of it are quite common in our culture and discourse. Commercially successful rappers have appropriated homicide as a central theme in their lyrical compositions. The tremendous success of rap music is indicative of its increasing popular appeal and cultural impact. We reveal the ways homicide is constructed within rap music and its frequency of occurrence across time. Employing a cultural criminology framework, we analyze the most popular rap songs over the period 1989-2000, as determined by Billboard music charts, for references to homicide. Using content analysis we explore the emergent themes associated with homicide scenarios in rap lyrics. Results show violent death was constructed in glorified ways, incorporated cautionary tales, or used as an analogy for powerful rhyming. The major themes found in these homicide-related rap lyrics were the normalization of killing, respect maintenance, confrontation with the power structure, vengeance, and masculine confrontation. Gender patterns of killing were surprising and distinct. Homicide was almost always male on male. Careful consideration is given to the multiple meanings of homicide, particularly the ways rappers have appropriated the word "killing" and transformed it into a term that indicates creative success."

@hilde45 - Racism?  Seriously?

@shutupuface Nah, I don’t have a problem with differing opinions at all, as long as they’re actually based on intelligent thought rather than generalized dismissals of a music form that doesn’t conform to a predisposed definition. I throw out the "race card" - as you predictably put - because that’s what it is. Look at the thread about country music. How many references to a specific culture or group can you find there? None. Shocker.

"With that being said, I don’t see that it takes alot of "musicianship" or "vocal range" to be a "rap singer". Only the ability to rhyme (not necessarily poetically), and keep a beat. The fact that women are more than referred to in degrading terms ( " ho" *itches") does little to endear my ears to that ilk."

• Try to rap like Chuck D or Dre or Lil Uzi. See if you have to breath control, rhythmic mastery, and ability to control your intonation and elocution to the extent they can.
• Much music made by men degrades or objectifies women, including the Boomer rock you grew up with.
• Your musical resume doesn’t exactly pad your point much.

@ab2ab Thank you for a thought-out rebuttal. I would have posted my original reply whether I would have known your color or not. I mean, racism knows no color boundaries. And yes, I would love to talk with you about drill (which, like trap, is a rap genre I simply don’t find pleasing to listen to. It’s that constant hi-hat which grates on me), its Brooklyn and Chicago bases, and the complex cultural-musical-sonic interplay that gave rise to the genre.

However, as a middle-aged suburban white male, I’m not going to pretend to "understand" where those artists are coming from - the "real culture" as you say. However, I will try to appreciate what they do, whether its King Keef or Lil Durk, rather than post sophomoric crap that permeates this thread.

Truthfully, I prefer artists like Autumn! and other southern rappers more than a Chicago sound.

FWIW, Ice-T recently castigated contemporary rappers as "weak" and "soft". I mean, this is ICE-T saying this! But I still disagree with him. It seems another example of an older guy railing against a new way of doing things, another example of @musicfan2349 's cool thread about finding it harder to like new music the older you get. 

@ab2ab 

Nice post and thank you!

@simao + 1

Of course Ray is Right. Music requires a melody (and a melody has rhythm in it, along with implied harmony - so it's a complete package.) Without melody, you got nuthin' - and that's why Rap is not music.

As suggested above, let's all get back to sharing what we love about this hobby.  Have a great weekend, guys!  Enjoy and many blessings!

Message in Our Music - The O'Jays  

Agreed, tho I prefer

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muse_Sick-n-Hour_Mess_Age

Reader take note that title of this thread gives you fair warning what to expect in regards to people who think something is true just because that is their opinion.  

Rap is music.  Look it up!  Cheers!

@ab2ab You've got a lot of problems. 

Ad hominem attacks, assuming I "have no real exposure to rap music," saying you 'know' I've never heard drill or trap...  

Why would you say that? Terrible default position of assuming to know what other people's lives are like. 

Your argument is just dreadful.

You provided zero actual evidence as to know some damn music "negatively impacts society." Probably because it's a silly idea to begin with, and it's virtually impossible to prove because it's untrue.  

Music is in the ear of the beholder. Any art form is subject to one’s personal perception.
There are some who might not consider paint randomly splashed on a canvas spread out on the floor to be "art", yet Jackson Pollock’s paintings are worth a fortune.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Ray Charles feels that "Rap is not music"...

I mostly agree.
I find it ugly, arrogant, vulgar, ungrammatical and only occasionally has some semblance of melody, "sampled" from older tunes.

Ellingto said, "It don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that swing".
So does that make Debussy’s "Claire de Lune" meaningless?
Of course not.

Music has devolved to a point where it is mostly computer generated drivel and it has lost the beauty and soul of the great blues and R&B artists of the past.
Black music, in particular, used to be rich with melody and rhythm back when the Temptations, Stevie Wonder, Donny Hathaway, Aretha Franklin, et al., were in their prime.
Now... did you see Rhianna at half time?
Pathetic, and getting worse every day.
Truly sad.

But - is Rap music?
Perhaps it is - but just not something I care to listen to.

---------------------

Check out my pure silver interconnects: https:/silversolids.com

Marc Stager

Yet another overgeneralized and stuck in the past response. Made even more interesting by the fact that Rihanna is not even American.

Oh no, only 17 posts. That's because, mostly I read. Instead of complaining about others. Everyone has their own opinion. If you don't like mine then move on. 

Funny, I read all of them, too. And you're the one who first opined/complained. Seriously, maybe read a little more before you spout off half-baked "alota yomama" cringe.   

@viridian zing!!

Nitwit sez:"Yet another overgeneralized and stuck in the past response.
Made even more interesting by the fact that Rihanna is not even American."

When something is worth listening to, I don’t care if it is a day or a century old, I will give it my time and attention. Rap is simply, vulgar trash. Rhianna not American? I know - so what? Does that make her music any more tolerable?

The music of lowlifes and criminals. Check out the stats of murdered rappers here:

Trash. Period.

@stager Way to miss the point. You mention a bunch of Black American artists adn then lump Rihanna in with them as if she has anything in common. 

Whatever, go back to your "good ole days" shangi-la of existence when EVERYTHING was better. 

"Are You Lonesome Tonight"  Elvis

This isn't exactly the most enlightened thread out here. Let's start at the beginning:  Ray Charles was critical of rap but did he really say that "rap is not music"? Source?

I posted the quote on the first page of this thread. 

And in reading back through the responses, the predictability of the vague, uninformed, and biased cultural gatekeeping is in keeping with every other thread about the genre. Rarely do any of the critics have any knowledge of contemporary rap or of the creation and production skills needed. They couldn't tell you (nor care) how Snoop differs from Lil Durk, or how Janelle Monae and Pharoahe Monch advance afro-futurism via hip-hop. 

Usually the ones with the strongest critical opinions are those who know the least about what they criticize. 

@simao: I'm in complete agreement with you on the "vague, uninformed, and biased cultural gatekeeping" here. Well said. My point was simply that, as far as I can tell, Ray Charles never said that "rap is not music." The fact that the OP can't even get the line right is indicative of the intellectual laziness of this thread.

@northman I see what you mean. Charles simply said that rap doesn't do anything for him, not that it wasn't music.