Primaluna or not Primaluna

@moto_man 

+1Very true.

I have heard PL amps several times and never warmed up to their sound.  They have good bass but the midrange has always sounded flat and shouty.

tube rectifiers are good but have their disadvantages too.  

i really enjoyed the sound of my rogue audio cronus magnum ii, can become very tube warm with the right small signal NOS tubes.  the KT120 are powerful and dynamic.  

the CM amps are great values and have huge sound stage and a clear, refined sound as good as anything.  

All of these swaps and comparisons. This hobby is endless. But I’m done purchasing tube amps. And that’s a blessing. One is enough. 

Before I bought the Primaluna EVO 100 integrated I compared it at the showroom on $4,500 / pair Paradigm speakers with a Hegel H390. I picked the EVO 100 integrated Hands down. Then I took it home and compared it against a Shitt audio Freya, Vidar combo. My 45 year old crown pre / power amp combo also for fun was compared. The EVO 100 not only sounded better on my speakers, but had larger dynamic swings, clearer mids highs and the push was better and faster. Lows were comparable.  All compared systems sounded great, but in my side by sides you could clearly hear more string vibration from violins , no matter the instrument. Sax reeds were tighter, bass was more clear and precise.  The cheaper primaluna, in my comparisons surpassed systems costing twice the price.

I am sure there are better tube amps out there, but for the price point Primaluna both in quality of build and sound it is difficult to match or beat. I recently upgraded the sound with JJ KT77s it was remarkable!

I think that its hard to judge different amps without knowing what the rest of the equipment is and even the room.  So many things go into "sound."  That being said, when I had Focal Diablo Utopia III's, I got a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP, which is about 75 watts.  It was fantastic with those speakers.  I am a low hassle kind of guy, and the PL had all sorts of bells and whistles to make having a tube amp simple, such as auto bias, and a bad tube indicator. It is a solidly made amp with point to point wiring, and accepts many types of tubes.  A really great amp for the price that hits way above its price point.  When I got a pair of Wilson Audio Sabrina X's, the PL drove them pretty well but they really needed more power, so I picked up a Pass Labs 250.8.  Definitely an improvement at 3x the price.  When I sent the Pass Labs back to the factory to fix the meter, I put the PL back in  and it sounded very nice but the same reaction . . . needed the power of the Pass for my speakers to sound their best.  That being said, I highly recommend the PL for its price/performance/quality.

I have never owned Tannoy but did own Zu Audio with which I purchased, lived with and later sold Primaluna, Quicksilver, Kinki, Nuprime, Unison Research amplifiers. Though Tannoy and Zu are quite different there are common traits and with the Zu my favourite amplifiers were the Unison and Quicksilver. My least favourite was the Nuprime with the Primaluna following. Of course a subjective opinion driven by tube colourations and I suspect lower damping factor. It was an enjoyable listening experience that likely wouldn’t pass the Audiophile sniff test but did allow me to play everything from Sabbath to Ben Harper. Dollar for Dollar the Quicksilver amps ( Horn Monos) were the greatest bargain in my journey to that point. 

I currently own a Line Magnetic 518 (845 tubes) and a Primaluna Evo300 amp. Front end is Holo May/Serene KTE. I’ve also owned a Primaluna Dialogue 1 integrated and a Line Magnetic 508 (805 tubes), along with other tube amps. my speakers are Cube Nenuphar Mini’s, which is a single driver crossoverless 92db speaker. Very easy for most any amp to drive. 
 

I am a fan of Primaluna and really like my Evo300 amp. After using a GanFET amp during the summer I actually just put it back in my system this past week. I thought I preferred the Line Magnetic as I was using it up until I put the GanFET in a few months ago. I had every intention to swap it in to compare it to the Primaluna. But I couldn’t take the Primaluna out, it was sounding so good. 
 

I also have a plethora of tubes: Sophia Electric EL34, gold Lion kt77 and kt88, shuguang we+ 6ca7 (el34), tungsol 5781 and mullard el34 and some others. I spent some time mostly listening to these tubes and think the kt88 and el34 and variants sound best. I’ve used kt120 and kt150 in the past but never loved them. Maybe if you have more difficult to drive speakers the extra umph is nice but I have plenty of headroom with the kt88 and EL34. I’m also running 6 Radiotechnique NOS 12au7’s. Amazing. 
 

In a few weeks I will put the 518 back in as I only remember that sounding amazing too. One thing to keep in mind is these amps get hot, especially the Line Magnetics being Class A and the huge tubes. The Primaluna runs cool enough I could use it all year but if you’re in a hot climate or small space it does get hot. 
 

I also prefer the Primaluna 300 to the 400. Tube rolling is also much less expensive. The amp also runs cooler and I think sounds more tube-like. I think the 400 would be better if you have speakers below 88db and/or a huge space to fill. I’ve never run out of headroom with the 300 or even the dialogue 1 which had about the same power, and that’s with speakers rated as low as 86db sensitive. 
 

I also owned the LM508 which is a beast. Very heavy and hot running but the sound was amazing. However I also had an issue with a capacitor. It was covered by warranty but took about 5 months and shipping that amp is not a simple task for one person. The Primaluna is manageable. 
 

I’m a fan of both brands, which is why I haven’t sold either amp. So don’t think you can go wrong. But the Primaluna is more flexible and maybe a touch easier to own. Just my thoughts. 

@simna , You’re all set then! Another benefit of the PL’s is they’re auto bias, which is a big plus. Best affordable tube amps without a doubt!

@simna

Well, it’s a cheap enough experiment to try the different Zu’s. Whether you start w the Omens as bookshelves just to see, the sound signature will be the same thru out the line.

You can tell if they would be for you soon enough.

At any rate, it’s still cheaper than what you are considering and who knows, you may hit audio pay dirt with little expenditure.

I always liked the Quick Silvers myself. I even used to carry them at our audio salons

Congrats on the Quicksilver mid-monos simna they out to be great w/your Tannoys.  Yes, there are a good many Tannoy fans here.  I've been thru a lot of tube amps and am smitten with new class D monos from Atma-Sphere paired with Stirlings.  

@ coltrane1

I actually have a quad EL34 Winged C.

And it is the PL EVO 300 I am considering. 

@arro222 ​​​​​​

Yes,  I still have the Audion and I have bden looking at Zu DW6 but I'm afraid the leap from Tannoy will be to big for me. I like the laidback sound but Yes,  sometimes it is a little too much and they are a bit too rolled off. But they works with everything from classical music to progressive rock. At least to my ears.

Wait...you still have the Audion?

If that is the case, just get the Zu Audio Omens....$600 or a bit more to ship to Sweden.

If you wanted towers, they have them as well....$1200 U.S.

It will make you sell your present speakers and you will not have to spend anywhere near $4000 or $5500

@holmz : The AR preamps are very good !! De poweramp.is “colder”. Neutral , but minus accoustical … Jadis is nice, but à warm and flowery sound. I do like Ear (specially the 509): very neutral, beautiful placement , natural sound. The Vac , and special the Mal Valve 2 and the Audio Aero Prestige are amazing and very 3D.: Perseptibility , clearly and placement of the instruments are great.

ne of the best amps and most beautiful I heard was from a company called Margules and it’s exactly what you were asking for, 50 watts/ch pure class A with KT88’s... And get this Margules is made in Mexico City, the company is like 80 years old making pro audio. Not only were these one of the best sounding amps at the show IMO, they are beautiful, awesome self biasing servo system, beautiful wood side panels and mirror polished copper plate, just gorgeous and in the same price range as Prima Luna about $5k, just so cool and unique. 

I second the Margules. It's pretty fantastic, one of the best I've heard, but if we're talking about the same one (model u280 SC), they cost $10K. At least mine did!

Haven't seen this one mentioned yet --- the LSA VT-70 from Underwood Audio.  I bought one recently and am really enjoying it.  Comes with EL-34 tubes but you can also use 6550s or KT88s.  Bias is easy with built-in meters.  It uses SS rectification but I don't consider that a negative.  Remember that opinions in this hobby are a dime a dozen.  I'm using the amp (35 w/ch) with Spendor 4/5 speakers which are only 84 dB sensitive, but easily reach my listening level of 85 dB without strain.  There have been a number of reviews with lots of praise, and all surprised at just how good the amp is for the price.  Hard to go wrong with the current intro price of $1,300.  No regrets on my part!  (But then that is just another opinion....)

I own Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP and EVO 400 amps... not integrated....! Also Quicksilver V4 and Mono 120/KT 150 tubes. Audible Illusions M3b preamp. All the above tube amps are great sounding with VonSchweikert and Totem speakers. Quicksilver output transformers unavailability has rendered the Quicksilver amps discontinued. Primaluna winds there own. Go figure. Transformer manufacturers out of business in USA. Oh, there are good ss amps like Bedini 25/25 Phase II for driving stacked Quads(single amp) and Acoustat 2+2s and other speakers. Tube rectification? No thanks with power amp. Primaluna is vere very good with AI tube preamp(or First Sound Pre.) Just my opinion. USA or China, I appreciate quality design/parts/assembly which is found in all the above mentioned products.....😎

As an owner of two Primaluna Dialogue Seven Monoblocks my take is if you want tube sound you can't do much better,  especially for the money.  I put extra into a Cary Audio SLP-05 preamp.  System sounds fantastic.  

@immatthewj , I found mine on eBay out of the UK. $220 for 4. Brand new in the box. Clean living?

Buy the PL, and call it a day. I mean, we’re talking EIGHT EL 34’a  I’m in heaven with 4. I can’t imagine 8 of them! Winged C Soviets is all you need. Trust me. 

@coltrane1  , I didn't know that Svetlanta Winged Cs could still be found?

Buy the PL, and call it a day. I mean, we’re talking EIGHT EL 34’a  I’m in heaven with 4. I can’t imagine 8 of them! Winged C Soviets is all you need. Trust me. 

I had a PL HP integrated with KT150 and loved the build quality, tube rolling flexibility and looks.  I felt like it was lacking a bit of headroom which, at least to me, surfaced in bass, detail and decay.  I actually moved to AGD Audions and really love the class D sound.  I will admit I'm running a running everything through a Cary SLP05 which add a bit of tube sound back into the mix.  All in all im really happy with the SQ.

Primaluna is meh. Great build quality, i liked primaluna best with kt150s. I found Line Magnetic to sound far better. I loved the LM 845 Premium. 

Its made in China, but its not chinese IP or chinese company. PL is designed and owned by Durob Audio from Netherlands. Its only built in China, thats it. There's big dealer network around the world for sale and support. They don't ship from China to you.  

I have now EVO 400 preamp (driving Pass power amp), and yet to hear better preamp for that money. I see many comments like "PL (4000$) is good, but this other brand (15000$) is better". Of course it is. 
Think PL give very good value for the money, its built like a tank, quality is great, you get local support if anything happens, sound is not completely tubey but kinda modern take on tubes. 
Worth auditioning, don't trust people on forums only! 

Oh boy this thread is going south fast!

You do you if you want to avoid MIC product go for it. Me I have an issue with the stolen IP and counterfeiting.

My laptop is made in Germany and is a Fujitsu. All of my audio components are made in North America and the EU. Are there boards and resistors that came from China? I am sure.

But lets not fault someone for their efforts to minimize the MIC products in their life.

My Dish washer is Bosch and so is my Oven, Stove, Microwave, Refrigerator, Washer and Drier. All made in the USA (NC&TN) HVAC is all Rheem and made in the USA.

So it can be done.

MIC is not all bad and some companies that do not contract manufacturing (NAD) build some quality products in China. It’s just to bad that no matter how you slice it the CCP is getting their cut and buying all the farmland in North America.

"Embrace communism?"

OH BROTHER....

How does a reminder of reality (as you read it on YOUR MIC computer display) imply supporting communism?

fpomposo-Silly rebuttal.

It is probably safe to say most Americans would willingly support a 100% American economy, but most know that’s impossible.

You are enveloped in MIC, from the minute you wake up to the time you go to bed and set your alarm clock.

This ISN’T a political/ethics post- just stating fact, which includes hi-fi gear.

100% MIC free isn’t reality.

Wow not on your list.

Audio Hungary (any of their integrated's) $$

Lab12 

Octave $$

Ayon $$

 Unison Research 

Should I keep going? 

I would check out Ayon audio tube amps. Retail they are a little out of your budget but they are the baddest tube amps I've come across and you can find them used for what you're looking to pay. They are pure class A, sound fantastic and are built like a tank. I think they look better than any other tube amps i've ever seen also. Good luck! 

Hi. I have a PL dialogue amplifier. I changed the four EL34 with four KT150.

I had the Quad Z1 86 dB efficiency without. no problem of driving also at high volume. Now I have two elettrostaic panels ( Final 300) 86 dB efficiency and 2 Ohm impedence over 10000 Hz. The listening is a dream, no problem of driving the panels also at high volume.  

These "China not for me" posts are the most comical.

The post was made by a MIC computer setup, while sitting on a MIC chair. The poster lives in a home with a MINIMUM of 75% MIC products.

Wouldn't be surprised if the Margules amp promoted is at least 75% MIC origin components simply assembled in Mexico.

NO ONE is MIC free...live with it.

Prima Luna is nice, but it’s still made in China.. personally I try to keep Chinese stuff out of my Golf bag, out of my HiFi, and definitely not on my wrist...

I was at the Long Beach audio show and one of the best amps and most beautiful I heard was from a company called Margules and it’s exactly what you were asking for, 50 watts/ch pure class A with KT88’s... And get this Margules is made in Mexico City, the company is like 80 years old making pro audio. Not only were these one of the best sounding amps at the show IMO, they are beautiful, awesome self biasing servo system, beautiful wood side panels and mirror polished copper plate, just gorgeous and in the same price range as Prima Luna about $5k, just so cool and unique. I never knew Mexico made any HiFi, the designer was there and was a really cool smart guy who spoke perfect English with almost no accent... I plan on getting one of those amps maybe the preamp too, it’s just beautiful and sounds excellent

I wouldn't advise tube rectification in a power amp unless you listen at very low volume or have very sensitive/efficient speakers.  Unless you don't value dynamics. PLs amps are SS rectified but their preamps are tube rectified and IME they sound great.

KT series Quicksilver’s…built for life ….sound great….look good and made in the USA….like WEATHER-TECH

…AND STIHL ……

Perfection….no Chinese garbage

QUICKSILVER never advertises so you pay for your product not for advertising 

BEST OF ALL POINT TO POINT NO CIRCUIT BOARDS💪💪💪💕💕💕

@simna

Yup Sensitivity: 89 dB. Thought they wwre more like 96db. I rhink given your budget and desire to roll roll roll a PL is your best bet. The el34’s are sweet dispite less power than 88’s or 150’s. PL’s auto bias and don’t run tubes hard. Your room, gear and speaker placemnt matter as mich too. 

You might be interested in the Rogue Cronus Magnum 3. I purchased the Rogue after owning the Primaluna Dialogue Premium and found it more detailed and dynamic. It’s 100wpc and it has a switch that allows you to toggle between ultra linear and triode modes. It’s very easy to bias with the supplied tool and built in gauge.  It’s made here in the USA and built extremely well.

For what’s it’s worth, there is a dealer in Sweden called Meta Wave and sells Rogue equipment. It might be worth to check it out 

I think because these have been in production for so long there are various iterations. With mine you bias each tube individually. I start at 40 ma and adjust by ear. Typically the El come in somewhere around 46 and oddly enough the kt120 come in roughly the same. I believe I was mistaken when I said Mike told me both were at the same value it had been a long time since I had spoken to him and I since both tubes that I use in those coming around the same value I was obviously confused, my apologies. These were my first tube amps and I was a little intimidated at first but it is surprisingly easy, doesn't have to be done often, and is definitely worth it from a Sonic standpoint.

@marantz33

Late reply? I think you were fast :)

I thought using a multimeter was the new way because they say at the Quicksilver web site you have to use a multimeter.
But how does this work? Will the amp detect which tubes are installed? I mean EL34 and KT88 shouldn’t be biased with the same voltage. And what about KT120?

What makes me a little hesitant is the seller says both tubes are biased simultaneously!!!

@wsrrsw
I know Feliks Audio very well. I have had their headphone amp Elise many years. And I love it.
But 8w will be even worse than my 12w I have today.

Oups. Europe. Ok. More than your budget (maybe used?) but a FELIKS AUDIO ARIOSO 300B INTEGRATED AMPLIFIER will be the cat’s pyjamas. Maybe help finance by selling all your tubes. Seriously. 

Simna, sorry for the late reply I just saw this. My mid monos are older so my biasing needs to be done with a multimeter. This is not hard to do at all but an LED light would make it infinitely easier. When I first bought them I actually asked Mike Sanders this very question and he replied that the biasing for all the tubes the amp can use is at the same value

Tannoys are unique speakers. Not a lot of tannoy fans here. My guess is your speakers need some power to sound their best and you might get some ideas at a dedicated tannoy forum. I would generally agree that PL would work but won’t give you the wow factor, while the flea watt amps won’t have enough power. That means perhaps higher cost more powerful tube amp like a 300 b or the higher option at decware 

@marantz33 

I have actually found a used pair Quicksilver Mid Mono for $1000. Seller says it has a led light that should glow when you have got the bias right. But then it can just optomise one type of tubes, EL34 i suppose. 
How does this work with KT88?

@holmz  Primarily I wanted the latest Sparkos op amp and Alan would not do that. Also the Nord has several options and op amps can be interchangeable to suit. I went with the Sparkos and dual Purifi. With March you get what Alan wants to give you but I prefer to make my own choices and have options.

Why did you get a Nord instead of the March Audio amp @mazian  ?

I mentioned previously that I needed an amp I could lift so I recently bought a Nord Class D with dual Purifi and Sparkos Op amps. Shipped from the UK to Australia the landed cost was A$ 3000approx, well within your budget. I have approx 50 hours on it at the moment and it is getting better and better. Is it as good as the EAR 534?  at present probably not but it is getting very close with more hours of use. There are also manufacturers of Purifi based amps in France and Italy but their names escape me at the moment. Also as Holmz says it matches very well with a tube pre that I use ( Aesthetix Calypso ).

Several of your sugestions is not availeble in Sweden (where I live). If I was in the US it would be pretty easy to order an amplifier from some small interesting brand and have the option to return it in, say, 60-days, if I don’t like it. That will not be so easy when living in Sweden. And if I took a chance and order a amp for $4000 it would be $5500 when I would receive it due to tax and fees.

Yes, there are always other amlifiers that sounds better. Even if I buy one for 10k there will be better ones.

Hence the mention of Class-D.

Purifi is over the bridge in Denmark, and a few EU manufacturers have amps using their modules. It may be a lot easier to find a demo.

PL is also Denmark/China so that is likely easier choice in Sweden.

FWIW, what I am getting from what I have read on this site is that the preamp has more influence on the sound than the amp does.

A tube preamp feeding a SS (A/B) or Class-D can sound pretty good.

… and it obviates needing to find an amp with the transformers that do not saturate, or allows speakers with very difficult loads to be run.

easy speakers can use Class-A, A/B, D or a Triode designs, but the difficult ones need push-pull tubes, A/B or D.

… and there may be good choices (combo) in all topologies… and there may also be bad ones - which are heavily driven by the speakers.