Primaluna or not Primaluna

PrimaLuna sounds pretty good.
But I’d sell mine and get a Class-D if a buyer approached.

What speaker are they pushing around?

@holmz 

Why would you sell your Primaluna for a class D amp if you think Primaluna sounds good? They sound quite different, don't they?

My speakers are Tannoy Legacy Eaton.

I agree with the "less is more" philosophy in a tube amp. I call Primaluna a swiss army knife. You don’t get the full "tube magic" experience with Primaluna.

If you have efficient speakers look for a used Decware (18 month waitlist for new) you won’t be sorry.

Jerry

PS the SS amp that sounds as close to a tube amp as I've found it the Kinki Studios EX-M1+.  I have one and highly recommend it.  

I'll second carlsbad.  I had a Primaluna PL2 and it was good but wow the sound from my Decware with 4 watts is soooo much better.  Used the same speakers, not a loud but much better sound.  Yes you are limited with tube swapping but the Torii might do the trick for you.

The PL will sound "quite good" as you heard with the Line Magnetic.

The difference may be the overall build quality, features and support if needed.

Other than that, the SQ is purely subjective, like EVERYTHING audio.

You can hear any brand amp/topology that will sound great, only to be outdone by something encountered later.

Some prefer low wattage SET over traditional amp setups.

Wow...if that Zen TORII Mk 5 sounds half as good as it looks it must be heaven for a music lover.

But will it really be enough for my 89dB speakers? At least they claims that.

And I have my eyes on Duevel Venus speakers too. They are at 88dB, 4 ohm and I've read that they need atleast, in a small room, 30-40 w. But maybe it's "ordinary solid state watts";)

@grinnell 
What speaker do you have with the Decware?

But will it really be enough for my 89dB speakers? At least they claims that.
 

If you listen loud then the PL is probably better, and if it is quiet maybe you could get by with less watts.

@holmz 

Why would you sell your Primaluna for a class D amp if you think Primaluna sounds good? They sound quite different, don't they?

We have a HT set up as well, so the tubes are not really needed for that.
And the good Class-D seems like it is pretty good.

The PL is good, but I do not know your speakers, and speakers make a bigger difference than amps… generally.

@holmz ​​​​​​

My speakers are Tannoy Legacy Eaton.

My speakers are Tannoy Legacy Eaton.

So you said, but I still don’t know them.

It will use tube rectification and not solid state rectification (because I have heard solid state rectification takes away the tube sound).

I am sure you’ve heard that, I am not sure it is true though.

4k is a lot of money though.
I’d personally be more tempted to get a TDAI-1120 or a set of active speakers, unless the room is in pretty deadened shape already.

The PL is pretty easy though, you just run the cables and it sounds good.
I got a set of KT120s - but did not put them in yet. It sounds fine with the 8x EL34s.

Might want to consider Quicksilver in California. Also PM “ Hilde45 “, as he is one of their many owners, is forward thinking and is a great source of information based on actual experience. Cheers , Mike B. @  Hilde45 

Like @buellrider97 mentioned The Quicksilver… and Bryson, Ayre, and a bunch of other SS amps can also sound pretty good.

Less seems to be available in Class-D.

And of course a bunch of the tube amps.

Generally I find that the speakers and room have a bugger contribution.

@simna

I using 92db Ref 3A de Capos   had them with the primaluna and they sounded good but the decware sounds much better

do they blast the house down-no not with 4 watts but detailed rich good bass

i used the primaluna with B&W 602s2, Triangle Comete

I have an EAR 534 which meets all of your criteria and then some and it is way superior to the made in China Primaluna. A used one should be in your price range, if you can find one. I'm selling mine reluctantly, as I need one I can lift at my advanced age, but I'm in Australia so probably no use to you. 

p 

"But will it really be enough for my 89dB speakers? At least they claims that."

87-89dB is an average rating for a good chunk of the market. The PL will drive most of them.

Other than rock concert levels from the 70's, it should cover "normal" listening levels.

Long time PL user here.

Expand your notes and study.

You are missing the names that come to my mind.

No! On Prima Luna! Yes the Audio media does push them for other reasons not related to sound/build quality. Consider looking into Mastersound, Unison Research or Pathos Italian made integrated amps.

I have a Primaluna dialogue premium hp integrated amplifier for 3 years and it sounds good with the 8 KT120 tubes, I also have the Decware Zen TORII Mk 5 for a year now and the Decware though it has less power sounds so much better and more detailed. I also have a Black Ice Fusion F35 Integrated with the 6550 tubes that I use as a headphone amp that sounds great for headphones but just OK through my speakers. The Primaluna and the Decware are playing through a pair of Acoustic Research AR308 HO speakers with a 93dB rating, and they also play through my Omega speaker systems Super Alnico High Output XRS speakers, with a 97dB rating (more like only 95dB) which sounds just fantastic, no crossovers and single point drivers. which fills my room about 14' X 18' with plenty of sound at only 15 to 25 watts of power. The Primaluna plays directly to the speakers while the Decware plays through my Denafrips Hades Unity Gain, 0dB preamp, I use this so I can have remote control for volume.

I owned the PrimaLuna integrated using 6550 tubes and it was reliable and sounded good with my Elac 247.2 speakers. When I retrieved my Audio Research solid state D240 MKII I sold the PL. I found the PL a fuss free amp that is auto biased and whilst it allows power and output tube rolling I never bothered. These amps keep their value. Earlier I owned a new LM 518ia 845 amp that didn’t really give me the 845 experience I was looking for, I had no operational problems with it though. I currently use a fully tube CD player that provides the tube transparency and holographic sound feeding my ARC pre pro system. Great combo… The PL is a very commercial amp, well enough made, reliable and easy to operate which does what it says on the package. Good but not fabulous.

I had a Primaluna Dialogue Premium. It did not have the detail I was accustomed to hearing. I gave the brand one last chance and traded it in for a Primaluna Evo 400...there was a big difference in detail.

However, it is not the last word in detail retrieval. But it’s got other things going for it. I had a tube make a loud pop and one channel was gone. The protection system indicated a bad tube. I got the tubeset from a non qualified vendor. I was afraid the incident blew one of my new Tannoy speakers. I switched speaker cable and luckily the speaker was saved.

The Evo 400 has a protection fuse for each of the autobias channels. And they're conveniently located in the side of the amp...no need to open it up.

The amp also came with extra fuses. I popped one in and replaced the tubeset and all is good. In my 3rd year and this was the first incident.

They are bulletproof. They run the tubes gently. That will come at a sonic cost. But it is still a great sounding amp in the romantic sense. It’s just a very flattering sound.

As tube-amp.: PrimaLuna isn’t  à “wohw”-amp. , not  bad but more An amp for “beginners”. :sound is à little bit sharp, not so detailfull, is very open. I prefer: Ear 509, VAC phi 300.1 , Wavac  805m , Audio Aero Prestige , Mal Valve 2 ,…( Less: Macintosh, Audio Research, Jadis,…)

As tube-amp.: PrimaLuna isn’t  à “wohw”-amp. , not  bad but more An amp for “beginners”. :sound is à little bit sharp, not so detailfull, is very open.

I am not sure what:

1. sharp and detail full mean, but I would expect sharp to be detailfull.
2. nor what “wohw” translates to?
3. and I am only about 50% certain on what “open” means.

Mine, on “Triode”, seems less full of harmonic distortion than on Utra-linear, but UL is nice for some gendres like rock.

Vocals and piano seem better in Triode to my ear.
(Maybe ^that^ is “open”?)

Personally I would not want it to be more tubey, but many people like that sound.

I dislike sibilance, and most tube amps do not grate on me, just some are more tubey and harmonically rich and other are “less exciting” and seem cleaner.
I generally like the later ones.

When I am sort of “meh” on an amp, that is usually a sign that it is doing what it does and not adding a lot.

It might compress, or something like that, in the higher dynamic range bursts… but it does not tend to get the grainy treble when the music gets loud, like some older SS amps did. 

If the OP likes a tube sound then they will likely prefer to run it in UltraLinear (UL).

Hence my earlier comment on Class-D (and just using a tube pre)… that seems like it is another viable option, and after having had the PL power amp *(Dialogue Premium HP) for a year+ I like it, but am not wedded to it… which means that I guess it is good.
And I have been playing it a lot more in Triode mode lately.
(Not as exciting, but more airy and recessed.)

I would suggest that the OP may want to listen to one in a shop and see if they like UL or triode… as that is akin to some of the difference when moving up and down the tubey sound spectrum of amps.

I prefer: Ear 509, VAC phi 300.1 , Wavac  805m , Audio Aero Prestige , Mal Valve 2 ,…( Less: Macintosh, Audio Research, Jadis,…)

^THIS^ Seems like it may be very useful @lukaske 
How do those amps fall on a spectrum?
How is the AR and Jadis sound compared to the Ear (etc.)?
Are they warmer or colder? Or what?

Holmz :PrimaLuna : open , i ment very acoustic, the high-range is sharp . Not “Whow“ , means :not An amp i would buy again :à normal mid-class tube amp.. in triode hé plays , as you said  , and not tiring .  Jadis have à Nice sound but too woolly  . The amps , i do like are very neutral , natural sound , Nice placement : specially : Audio Earo , Mal Valve and VAC. ( I do like The sound of Ear too!)

I had a Jolida amp for years...ran with pretty much all the tubes you listed and sounded great.

I heard good things about this one:

https://www.lab12.gr/product/integre4-mk2/

Tube/valve amps vary so much depending on what they're driving, particularly the SET variety. It is a challenge to get adequate driving power esp for rock from SETs (except perhaps exotic megabuck varieties). I think compromise is always involved - liquidity, transparency, holography and warmth of SET vs punch +/- volume of push-pull. interestingly while I love the SET sound for hifi listening, my Mesa guitar amp allows switching from 50w push pull to 5W SET. Even playing at similar volume settings I MUCH prefer playing through the Pushpull setting. Strange that I have loved SET so much in the hifi. I think it might be the holographic stereo soundstage and transparency which is so allluring.
 

Not sure you should rate ability to tube roll so highly in your priorities as that may limit your options of achieving the sound you're after. At the end of the day you're likely to settle for one of the tube options after some experimentation. 
the compromise I reached was with Audion Black Shadow 845 monoblocks. Pure Sound, Unison Research and other manufacturers also make amps with the 845 valve - might be query looking to see if anyone does an integrated using the 845. Being originally designed for transmission it has more oomph than most other SET designs. Mine drive a pair of Coincident Super Eclipse. 23 foot x 13 ft room. Volume levels not a problem. The only thing I've trialled in my system which I was tempted by was a pair of JE Audio push pull monoblock. It traded just a small amount of the SET magic for more punch on bass drum, snare etc. 
Best wishes for your search. 

In your shoes i'd get the hardwired Audion Sterling with a pair of Zu Audio Omen book shelves. The entire set up for around $4200.

98db, 35lb speakers that will beautifully coincide with what the Sterling offers.

Several of your sugestions is not availeble in Sweden (where I live). If I was in the US it would be pretty easy to order an amplifier from some small interesting brand and have the option to return it in, say, 60-days, if I don’t like it. That will not be so easy when living in Sweden. And if I took a chance and order a amp for $4000 it would be $5500 when I would receive it due to tax and fees.

Yes, there are always other amlifiers that sounds better. Even if I buy one for 10k there will be better ones.

I gladely loose some detailand sound stage to a sound that engages me, makes it fun to listen to the music and makes me forget analyzing everything. Rather a presentation that alows me to listen to more that 50% of my CD:s and LP:s without beeing disturbed by harsh and thin sound. With other words; it’s OK if the sound is a bit more warm and forgiving than being neutral and analytical.
I want an amplifier that seduces me with the music, not just giving me the biggest sound stage, all the details and the truth and nothing but the truth.

I remember when I was a teenager and I just was listening to the music and never had any thougts about how detailed or reveiling or.... the sound was. I was just embraced by the music.
I know I will never find my way back to when the music was everything and I never though much about the details of how the presentation.
When I bought my first "upgrade", then the hunt for better sound started.
Maybe 14 years as a mastering engineer ”destroyed my simple way” of listening too.

Problem is that I bought a tube amp several years ago (Tube Technology Unisis Signature with EL84 tubes) and fell in love with the ”tube magic”.
If it hadn’t been for for a bad PCB-card I would surely have used it today.
Bought a solid state amp, Musical Fidelity M6, but never really liked it.
Bought a Line Magnetic LM-34AI and never really liked it.
Bought an Audion Audio Sterling and really liked it, but the problem was the measly 12 watts.
So now I have a pile of tubes I want to use (EL34, KT88, 6550, 6922, ECC81, ECC82, ECC83, E88CC…).

And here I am today, struggeling to find the best partner to my
speakers...sigh.

Many thanks to you all for all the input.

It might be difficult to find preowned but a Leben CS600 or CS600x would check your power tube wants. Since you are desirous of rolling tubes, the Primaluna might be your best option given ease of rolling and adaptive auto bias. For best sound you might consider buying the amp for sound quality/match with your Tannoys and sell off the tubes.

A preowned Audio Note UK integrated might be all you need to match up well with the Tannoys and a Soro se sig used would slot into your price range. Once again, you fell in love with the tube sound when experimenting with an el84 based amp. Why not consider a preowned Audio Note OTO SE Sig or Leben CS300xs. Many of us here who have fallen for tubes over the years fell for the el84. I’ve spent alot of time and money over the years chasing ever more up the vacuum tube food chain. I have found it but it comes at a considerable cost. If I had stopped at the Leben cs300x/cs300xs 15 years ago I could own a small country with what I’ve spent since.

OP, I have had no problems with my Quicksilver Mono 60s. My local tech is an audiophile doing this 30 years. He upgraded the caps in my QS and said they were extremely well built -- great transformers, he said, which are key. In my virtual system, there's a photo of the guts of the amplifier (as well as the preamp), in case you want to see the point to point wiring and interior parts. 

Mike of Quicksilver has answered every email I've ever sent him and has a very good reputation on this forum and elsewhere. (There's a Facebook group for QS started by fans.) QS spends nothing on advertising and doesn't typically send units out to reviewers. It's a reputation and word of mouth based product as far as I can tell. FWIW.

I owned the Primaluna Evo 400 integrated. It was a nice start into tubes. I then purchased a Dialogue Premium Pre and ran it through the HT input and it was a fantastic upgrade. I then went to a Dialogue Premium HP Poweramp for about a year or so and loved the sound, but felt I wanted more detail retrieval (and less heat) so I tried a PS Audio BHK250 and the detail and delicacy really was a move forward. The bass is also something else entirely, but might be a little too laid back of a sound in all honesty. In my very simple experience, the Primaluna was a great entry amp, but my BHK250 is a 15% better amp. I run tubes on the inputs and solid state on the output. If I had to scale back I'd pick up another Primaluna. But I've moved a little past it and have been happier with the detail. Will be looking to upgrade my Dialogue Premium Pre soon as well. Hope this helps. 

I own the Primaluna evo300 amp. It's a fun, great sounding product, that is incredibly flexible. If you like tailoring your own sound, don't hesitate to get one imho.

I previously owned the Pass Labs XA25. The Primaluna to me sounded better in my system. I wanted more detail and that great midrange that tubes bring to the table.

I had (two) PrimaLuna HP's  (w/KT88's) and they were good but I wanted better and more power for my not so efficient speakers. After a lot of reading and some trials I went with a Rogers High Fidelity integrated. It's stunning,

This is on eBay Rogers High Fidelity EHF-100 MK2 Tube Integrated Amplifier. Ebay takes 13% so a phone call should land this far better.

In your sated price the Rogue Audio Stereo 100 power amplifier would be terrific.

You pre-amp is what?

For what it's worth I have both a set of prima Luna prologue 6 monos and a set of quicksilver mid mono. I have run both through my rogue audio meta Magnum pre and love them both for different reasons. Both have impeccable build quality and have been able to easily drive the myriad speakers I have hooked up to them including magnapan lrs gallo nucleus 3.1 Sonus Faber chameleon and venere etc. I like to swap them out depending on my mood. The Quicksilver are very tubey and have a very fun nostalgic sound. That is not to say they are not detailed they just sound like tubes whereas the prima Luna is extremely detailed but does not sound like a traditional tube amplifier. The prima Luna take to tube rolling very well. If I am in the mood for Rock I tend to go with kt 120 but the best sounding tube in that amp by far are the El which they were voiced for. The fact of the matter is I don't think you can go wrong with either. I hope that helps good luck

Sorry should have said metis Magnum pre. Damn voice to text. I should point out that it's no Revelation that rolling tubes in the preamp makes a big difference as well so it's just another level of adjustment for both sets of amplifiers. Because the prima Luna are somewhat clinical I usually run those with kenrad from the early 50s. With the Quicksilver I often run a modern 6sn7 from tung sol but my favorite is a set of Raytheon from the 60s

To the OP, everyone here is going to tell you what they have or had is good for your purpose. You owe it to yourself to listen to one of the new Prima Luna Evo amps. They are quite special sounding

That is what I would purchase. If you don’t like it, they hold their value very well and you will not lose much on a resale.  If you want a tube sound, don't waste your money on one of the Rogue Cronus Magnums, they sound more like solid state and that is why I got rid of mine within the first year of ownership.

It will use tube rectification and not solid state rectification (because I have heard solid state rectification takes away the tube sound).

My first tube amp was a Cary SLA 70 (I still have it) and it has tube rectification.  I bought a pair of ARC VTM 120s which had SS rectification and later replaced those with a Cary V-12 (that I am listening to now) that also has SS rectification. I would say that all three of those amps probably had certain differences in their sonic signatures,  but I'd also say that they all had the "tube sound."  

FWIW, what I am getting from what I have read on this site is that the preamp has more influence on the sound than the amp does.

I wish you well in your quest.

Several of your sugestions is not availeble in Sweden (where I live). If I was in the US it would be pretty easy to order an amplifier from some small interesting brand and have the option to return it in, say, 60-days, if I don’t like it. That will not be so easy when living in Sweden. And if I took a chance and order a amp for $4000 it would be $5500 when I would receive it due to tax and fees.

Yes, there are always other amlifiers that sounds better. Even if I buy one for 10k there will be better ones.

Hence the mention of Class-D.

Purifi is over the bridge in Denmark, and a few EU manufacturers have amps using their modules. It may be a lot easier to find a demo.

PL is also Denmark/China so that is likely easier choice in Sweden.

FWIW, what I am getting from what I have read on this site is that the preamp has more influence on the sound than the amp does.

A tube preamp feeding a SS (A/B) or Class-D can sound pretty good.

… and it obviates needing to find an amp with the transformers that do not saturate, or allows speakers with very difficult loads to be run.

easy speakers can use Class-A, A/B, D or a Triode designs, but the difficult ones need push-pull tubes, A/B or D.

… and there may be good choices (combo) in all topologies… and there may also be bad ones - which are heavily driven by the speakers.

I mentioned previously that I needed an amp I could lift so I recently bought a Nord Class D with dual Purifi and Sparkos Op amps. Shipped from the UK to Australia the landed cost was A$ 3000approx, well within your budget. I have approx 50 hours on it at the moment and it is getting better and better. Is it as good as the EAR 534?  at present probably not but it is getting very close with more hours of use. There are also manufacturers of Purifi based amps in France and Italy but their names escape me at the moment. Also as Holmz says it matches very well with a tube pre that I use ( Aesthetix Calypso ).

Why did you get a Nord instead of the March Audio amp @mazian  ?

@holmz  Primarily I wanted the latest Sparkos op amp and Alan would not do that. Also the Nord has several options and op amps can be interchangeable to suit. I went with the Sparkos and dual Purifi. With March you get what Alan wants to give you but I prefer to make my own choices and have options.

@marantz33 

I have actually found a used pair Quicksilver Mid Mono for $1000. Seller says it has a led light that should glow when you have got the bias right. But then it can just optomise one type of tubes, EL34 i suppose. 
How does this work with KT88?

Tannoys are unique speakers. Not a lot of tannoy fans here. My guess is your speakers need some power to sound their best and you might get some ideas at a dedicated tannoy forum. I would generally agree that PL would work but won’t give you the wow factor, while the flea watt amps won’t have enough power. That means perhaps higher cost more powerful tube amp like a 300 b or the higher option at decware 

Simna, sorry for the late reply I just saw this. My mid monos are older so my biasing needs to be done with a multimeter. This is not hard to do at all but an LED light would make it infinitely easier. When I first bought them I actually asked Mike Sanders this very question and he replied that the biasing for all the tubes the amp can use is at the same value

Oups. Europe. Ok. More than your budget (maybe used?) but a FELIKS AUDIO ARIOSO 300B INTEGRATED AMPLIFIER will be the cat’s pyjamas. Maybe help finance by selling all your tubes. Seriously. 

@marantz33

Late reply? I think you were fast :)

I thought using a multimeter was the new way because they say at the Quicksilver web site you have to use a multimeter.
But how does this work? Will the amp detect which tubes are installed? I mean EL34 and KT88 shouldn’t be biased with the same voltage. And what about KT120?

What makes me a little hesitant is the seller says both tubes are biased simultaneously!!!

@wsrrsw
I know Feliks Audio very well. I have had their headphone amp Elise many years. And I love it.
But 8w will be even worse than my 12w I have today.

I think because these have been in production for so long there are various iterations. With mine you bias each tube individually. I start at 40 ma and adjust by ear. Typically the El come in somewhere around 46 and oddly enough the kt120 come in roughly the same. I believe I was mistaken when I said Mike told me both were at the same value it had been a long time since I had spoken to him and I since both tubes that I use in those coming around the same value I was obviously confused, my apologies. These were my first tube amps and I was a little intimidated at first but it is surprisingly easy, doesn't have to be done often, and is definitely worth it from a Sonic standpoint.