A few months ago, bought TWO of the above mentioned preamps. ( I have 2 stereo systems) Within 6 weeks of the purchase, the power supply of my speakers burns out! I purchase and replace the power supply. Three days later, the second newly replaced power supply is burnt out! After much investigative work and heartache, I discover that the Pre amp is the problem. It is defective and puts out DC. which burns out speakers. After, testing the second unit, I find that it is defective as well, EXACTLY the same problem. I return the units to my dealer, who returns them to Prima Lune.
I received a phone call from a Mr. Kevin Deal, big cheese at PrimaLuna. Told me that the capacitors, on BOTH units had failed and the units were putting out DC. He even THANKED me, for being a guinea pig, and discovering the flaw in his units.
He offered me a pair of tubes, as "compensation" for my troubles!! What a joker!!
WOW, a pair of tubes for blowing my $30,000. speakers!!
The height of arrogance and total disregard for the consumer of his product. To all audiophiles, do yourself a favour, STAY AWAY for this brand, unless you want your speakers cooked.
TOTAL lack of quality control, MADE IN CHINA junk, what more needs to be said.
Mr. Deal, WAKE UP, and STOP selling defective products!!
If, you are using PrimaLuna, and your speakers fail, check the amp or pre amp.
For clarity, this is not a large coupling cap that failed in George's
preamp. It's a high-frequency snubber, which is why the suspicion about
outside causes.
So...the amp got DC not through the coupling cap but through some shunting circuit between signal and ground???
This makes even less sense. I don't doubt you, @upscaleaudio I'm just more and more confused. If a snubber failed... I'd more expect HF oscillation to occur, which definitely could be damaging. << shrug >> but without seeing some sort of design, I certainly cannot be an arm-chair critic. I'm just expressing my cross eyed lack of understanding.
I wouldn’t be so arrogant and rushed to blame the patient
for his misfortune. Yes, maybe OP had
his ML power supplies covered with warranty
But spending good money buying brand new product directly from a Dealer
TWICE for the same component with the same defect that almost catastrophically
ruined $30,000 speakers for which he could be compensated a mere $50 that faulty and defective capacitors are worth does make me uneasy.
But maybe that’s because this happened to me, (twice.) My initiation into the high end twenty years
ago began with a brand new CAT Signature pre-amp, Krell MDA 300 monoblocks
driving Apogee Duetta’s. They had a magical synergy and sound for a brief 6 weeks, until too many sparks kept flying and one night the
“light reflections” I was told I was seeing actually burned through the large
thick aluminum woofer ribbon. The separate dealers that sold the CAT and Krell as well as CAT designer and owner himself Ken Steven’s felt it impossible that
their particular product could be at fault or ever pass DC and none took any initiative nor
responsibility to troubleshoot or even offer to check their product and left me
on my own, even though by now finally acknowledged I wasn’t hallucinating all those
late night sparks after all. So while
paying to repair and shipping the 150 lb. Duetta across the country, and since
others thought perhaps the tubed CAT preamp may have passed some intermittent
DC or had low frequency oscillations trying to drive the difficult Duetta’s
load, I had some back up speakers to use. Within days, 2 of 4 midrange Seas drivers
were promptly blown in a 3 way Rauna Balder speakers. The two supposedly reputable dealers I just
paid about $10,000 to (20 yrs ago) for the CAT and the Krell pointed fingers at
each other as did each manufacturer; Ken
Stevens of CAT, and representatives of Krell – would not even offer to
check their equipment, and finally one dealer “graciously” offered to buy back
the equipment at a used 50% markdown, about 6 weeks after I had just paid him
full retail and tax.
The CAT, Krell, and Duetta’s had a glorious sound, and the magic,
much I suspect coming from the CAT and ribbons; but after many calls to more
straight talking technicians and engineers, all agreed it best to keep tube
preamp with tube amps to avoid any potential or intermittent bleed of DC
current which the solid state amps may pass on through. But the CAT I had in house needed to go, and
I needed muscle and magic to drive a pair of Apogee Duetta’s, once repaired. I just
lost a third of the entire budget for the system with nobody seeming to
care. Worse I almost lost my passion and
enthusiasm in the discouragement in dealing with many callous, arrogant,
misinformed people that profess to know so much when they guess and shoot from the hip. (a lot of comments and denigrating in these
posts is bringing back those memories).
I was lucky to find a godsend in a great Dealer, advisor,
and friend 20 years ago. Victor
Goldstein convinced me I would be more than pleased with the Jadis JPL and Defy
Monoblocks to replace the CAT and Krell.
Not just an understatement, but an essentially trouble free investment
over 20 years; while I’ve had expensive Magnan Vi cables terminations
disintegrate; early MSB DAC problems recur; and a variety of other high end depreciation over
20 years, as everyone does. I don’t think
anyone would usually blame these on the user, or say the cables should be more
expensive to match the systems or else you deserve defective equipment and the damage it causes........
More germane though, this year I bought a new integrated
high end amplifier. Upon connecting a
Metronome DAC with the amp and to the 93Db sensitive Reference 3A speakers, and
in a mere 20 minutes out of the box the amp overheated, blew out 2 of 2 woofer
and 2 of 4 midrange voice coils of the right speaker and caused various
internal damage in the amp. Since repair
of the amp itself, all seems to be working fine with no DC output or problems
of any kind and no design issues reported with many other units of its kind.
Well, a second identical amp had already been sent even
before the repair of the first amp. Since the Reference 3 systems was out for
repair with exotic and expensive drivers needing ordered from France and being
handmade from Reference 3A now in Canada, it was unboxed and put in a second
system. There was no single component
aside from the housewire that was common: Lector Digitube DAC with the Amp with Martin Logan Quest
Z. The amp was turned on low volume to
warm up and for background music with some trepidation, and 15-20 minutes and
loud pitched siren screaming started and a half second I had it all shut
down. Again one speaker of the ML Quest
Z had the 12 inch woofer voice coil
blown, and later Tech repair shows internal damage with all 4/4 transistors
shorted, and many other parts damaged still to be determined and analyzed.
Whether there were a few bad capacitors bunched in the packs
of hundreds that get installed randomly in “our” units that cause all this
grief will be anyone’s guess; but parts are parts and they are not and never
will be perfect, not even for NASA. Now when you go put them in a complex system with more parts, potential for problems compound.
I read through these forums because I want to learn, but it
makes rough reading with so many trite, negative and uninformative attacks. Reproducing music is an amazing and
fascinating hobby. Yet, I always try to
remind myself that it’s the people that make the music, and all people deserve
my respect and passion as well.
I thank you Almorg, Atmasphere and others for all along being civil and
informative-it kept me engaged and learning.
And Mr. Dean for actually being responsive, on vacation and since, and for whatever offers that you could offer. What
else to do—no good answers are easy—perhaps a letter to alert purchasers of the
preamp of xxx units before the defective ones—everyone knows there were not just 2 bad capacitors—but obviously there
weren’t hundreds because you would have heard or notice that number. But there are likely other LONE CUSTOMERS not
in the know or OUT IN THE COLD being turned back by other dealers like I was 20
years ago to fend for themselves,(which you graciously did not do).
Thorloki-OP—I sure understand and feel where you’re at, but
also glad you have gotten responses, at least to some good degree. I’m feel your anger when something comes and
puts your “babies” at risk- but it does no good and like you I have to let go. Sad to see all the immature attacks; and with
the post of other defective PL-- if this
is a cluster of something bigger no one will ever know unless it gets tracked or PL or others are
open and honest about quality
control. Mr. Dean sure seems to be
willing and trying—not what I experienced 20 years ago. I’d rather be a customer of an honest,
supportive Dealer that’s had a few defective products than a defective Dealer
that has “perfect products forever”.
(I may feel your pain, but enjoy the tubes and stats moreJ)
Awwww geez louise where does the madness end? This "lbocquin" has come here with his very first post and splintered English and confirmed we do indeed have a sea of defective products out there just waiting to combust our draperies and homes. But now the problem is not of Chinese origin but a high-end problem from diverse artisanal producers. The answer is clear-don't buy high-end gear and instead limit your purchases to Best Buy offerings! Be forewarned! The parts manufacturers have dropped the ball-that's the answer.
I agree with Ilocquin. Why is it so diffifult to believe with all the hundreds of thousand components manufactured yearly that some are of poor quality or design? I guess the logic is? if it was not "me" that bought some defective gear it must not exist? Also why is it hard to understand that with so many products made in hundreds of factories in China that QC can fail? If a company has moved manufacturing to China, is it not to cut costs to improve profit? Is it not possible to believe that a supply of cheaper parts are chosen over another more expensive load? What about the influx of counterfeit parts in China? Why do so many people believe manufacturing CEOs are always honest and always want to do the right thing? Cmon use your brain, not every single audio component made is made correctly and not every audio brand exec is honest and does the right thing. BTW I don’t think Primaluna sales will suffer from this post! I am sure all the fans of PL don’t have to worry that the company will fold. I think that most audio forums actually serve an important function to INCREASE sales of many brands. But I think since this is a forum to exchange ideas, experiences, and the glory of musical enjoyment...we also can (and should) talk about the bad or ugly that has happened. If we don’t do that, it really is not an open forum. The forum appears to be more like brand advertisement, not a healthy exchange of ideas and experiences.
I am not defending PL. I don't own an PL gear. I think it fairly clear that KD is acknowledging a problem with the OP's preamps. My protest is with respect to the over-arching demand that every piece of PL gear be recalled and inspected. Chicken Little is screaming that the sky is falling down. Name just about any complex product known to mankind-cars, refrigerators, and yes, audio gear, and there are defective samples. Look how often the gear sent to S'Phile for review demonstrates a defect! Shite happens. My 2017 VW Golf GTI has a drivers side mirror plagued by excessive wind noise and a windshield that is badly distorted on the passenger side. I am not calling for VW to do a product recall over these two defects. They have enough problems with recalls :-).
@ibocquin Hm, Its been a bit of a mystery to me as to why Krell has been spreading a false rumor that tube preamps push DC; I'm thinking that your experience might explain it.
@erik_squires With regards to the PL preamp- if a high frequency snubber cap, the failure may have caused the preamp to make ultrasonic noise powerful enough that the amp made enough power to damage the speaker. If that is the case, my theory about the AC line may be out the window.
It ain't just us audio geeks with our precious and pampered gear piles who crave tubes, there are millions of happy tube guitar and bass amp users dragging these things around the world or just staying home and enjoying the reliability and tone of what is basically the Industry Standard. Old leaky caps in my Deluxe…worked fine for 50 years...
I'm no expert at the build quality of any electronics made anywhere. I will say that it is really arrogant to say everything made in China is junk. If something is junk it would be only because of the use of inferior components or poorly trained workers. I find it highly unlikely that a well respected brand name company would ruin their reputation by building inferior products. Everybody understands business decisions to move plants to other countries is based solely on cheaper labor markets. If a company is using the same quality parts inside their equipment it is hard to believe their products would be inferior just because the workers are not located in North America. This only smacks of protectionism.
@linnlingo - 10 years ago, I might have agreed with you, but in the last 10 years, Chinese manufacturing has come a long way. They are starting to really make fine quality electronics, especially if the parent companies are keeping a close eye on the QA. For example, I was skeptical when Bushnell moved it’s manufacturing to China. My Bushnell JOLT golf rangefinder (not cheap) has been working perfectly for the last 4 years. I recently bought a Chinese made reference level discrete ladder R2R DAC from Denafrips (Terminator) and it is an excellent example of great workmanship. The build and sound quality is top notch. Try to keep your mind open. In my view, Chinese made is where audiophiles are finding the best deals in audio. Remember companies like Lampizator, that make their stuff in Poland, it’s not like Poland is a manufacturing haven for electronics. Get over it, I did....just my view.
Nycjlee, methinks the post by Linnlingo was a clever mixture of sarcasm and humor, considering that The Great Wall of China has lasted for many hundreds of years, and I believe in some places for thousands of years. :-)
I drive a 2017 Golf R that was made in Germany and so far not a single issue in six months. I was a bit nervous given all the reports in the press about VW but this car is as solid as any vehicle I have ever owned except for perhaps my 20 year-old Toyota Land Cruiser that is totally indestructible and unbelievably problem free.
"But now the problem is not of Chinese origin but a high-end problem from diverse artisanal producers."
Yes this is always an issue with very small production runs. A multitude of manufacturers and designers with a bell curve of design quality. The safest approach is to go widely used reputable pro studio gear as these companies tend to test products more thoroughly before release, and they do not lightly risk tarnishing their reputation. It is one thing to have your personal home toys break down but if your equipment that you and a dozen others need to do your daily job is faulty then you are more likely to be super frustrated and never buy from that manufacturer again.
"Back in the day (and maybe still), rockers would intentionally take various sharp or blunt instruments to their speaker cones, too. Don’t know of many audio geeks who are doing that to their speakers. Although too many seem to allow their kids and guests to vintagify their tweeters."
I may be getting my R&R history mixed up. Anyhow, as a geetar player, I thought the idea was a little odd.During that period guys were still experimenting with how to get that "dirty" sound. Cranking the gain and playing with feedback was just around the corner, or some Blues cat(Johnny "Guitar" Watson or Ike Turner..) were already doing it and America wasn’t ready yet.
Surprising to find this thread still going. I dig my made in China PL. It sounds just as good(subjectively BETTER, by a group during a blind test) as an equivalent ARC piece that’s "Made in America" The build comparison is obvious- equal or maybe the PL wins by a notch.
I would love to have a rack full of USA gear, but the reality(value) doesn’t justify it. I do have a VPI(99%-Chinese wall wart for inverter circuit feeding my Classic) and Mac tuner, which is good o USA.
btw how picky on placement do you find the 0/93s -- how far out from the wall -- how far apart - anything between
I should check my Monroney sticker, but yes I think so. It replaced a 2014 Golf TDI built in Germany and other than the windshield and the poor design of the mirror (which should be the same as yours-they now fold in an upwards direction and it is the crevice/joint slanted upwards that causes the unintended windnoise), I have yet to notice any difference except that my GTI is far more fun to drive than the TDI. I have owned six VW's and have never had anything but great luck. My wife still drives our 2004 Touareg which is built like a Panzer. My turntable, preamp, amp, and speakers are all built by hand in the USA, a VPI Prime, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 150se, and DeVore Orangutans. But I have no idea where my AMR DP777 DAC is built, my Aurender N100H was built in S. Korea, and my Thorens TD124 was built in Switzerland. If I had my way, ALL my gear would be built in Switzerland. But ARC is close with middle aged women from Minnesota doing the hand-assembly. Lets face it-no country is immune from hung-over workers assembling stuff on Monday mornings. China has workers from the remote villages out in the country who live in dorms without their families desperate to make money much like US chicken factories that recruit poor Somali workers from all over this country to live in their dorms and do dangerous work in crappy conditions. Impose all the QC you want, without good workers who are happy (enough) and of clear mind, you get sloppy work. Chicken nuggets anyone?
Years ago (I am in my late 50s), Japan was known for crap... guess what happend.. DR Deming etc.....
Chit happens... it just does. Even Toyota can get a bad run of subcomponents... what matters is that the company takes care of it fast... and doesn't try to hide it.
I purchased, new, a 2000 Porsche Boxster S... it blew two engines.. yes, you read that correctly. Porsche denied they had a problem and lost a class action suite ... they had a defective design .. not parts ... but a bad design with multiple failure modes (just Google " PorscheIntermediate Shaft")... now that is a bad company.
Regarding PrimaLuna, I am not worried... I just purchased their HP integrated amp new.... love it.... moved from a pair of VTL 300 Deluxes... very happy.... actually it is a better built product than the VTLs that soldered tube sockets directly to circuit boards.
Lest Porsche be given a bad name, hifiman5, I regret to say that the Porsche of recent years seems to have no resemblance to the company as it appears to have existed in 2000, based on Bruce's description of it as "bad" at that time.
My experience purchasing two such vehicles in the past four years (a 2014 Cayman S and a 2017 Macan S) has been nothing short of amazingly good in every conceivable respect. And in recent years Porsche has ranked at or very near the top among all manufacturers in J. D. Power surveys of initial quality and longer term customer satisfaction.
@almarg I'm well aware of Porsche's present reputation. I'm sure you are having a ball cruising in those cars! Also...congrats. on having an interest in two high end endeavors.
I bought a PrimaLuna Dialogue HP integrated amp 10 months ago. It is currently away being repaired for the third time. From a reliability viewpoint it's by far the worst piece of hifi equipment I've ever owned.
These +/- posts remind me of pretty much everything else made by human hands. Inconsistencies. Among other marques, I've owned a dozen or so BMWs. Gas and Diesel. Sedan/coupe/x-over. Base 3-series to 5-series to a couple of M3s. Low miles to high miles. Never had any mechanical issues. All driven hard and fast. Some auto-crossing. But I've spoken to more than one person who "Owned one and had so many problems will never own that piece of junk again". You just never know...
Maybe PL has softened their oversight of the Chinese factory where the amps are made. There have been investigations of factory workers swapping parts in the audio industry. There is a black market for parts. Needless to say, PL should give good customer service and do right to their customers.
Been rocking the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium line for a few months with no problems. Sold my Audio Research REF 5SE and DS450M and got the PL Dialogue Premium Preamp and Dialogue Premium HP monoblock amps and my Maggie’s have never, ever sounded better. By the way 3 months in to buying a brand new pair of ARC DS450M’s at 12K and I had to send them to have the transformer replaced. I say that to say ish happens.
I like Kevin and have purchased from him in the past. He has been fair and helpful consistently. I question whether a PREAMP would produce DC (if any) sufficient to blow a power supply in a speaker ... I presume that the power supply referenced is part of a self-powered speaker. To my understanding, only a POWER AMP could produce enough DC to blow a speaker, which would occur by overheating the speaker coil. So, I wonder whether it was the OP's amp that caused the damage. If, for some reason, the PL was at fault, then I think the company should have paid for the repairs.
I agree that if a preamp was going to blow up your speakers it would do it by sneaking around late at night and attaching a bomb to them. Jolida (I like Jolida stuff), Vincent, Hegel, Prima Luna, Monitor Audio, etc., etc., (many of which are REAL items of very high quality) along with your computer, phone, clothing and a myriad of other stuff (myriad…many millions of things) are all from China. But everyone knows that. It seem to be a little late to criticize China made stuff generally, but as long as manufacturers apply some tight quality control it’s likely gonna be well made. I love my Shu Guang 274Bs.
Well, PL touts high QC despite made in china manufacturing. The OP has a right to be effing pissed. But I dont know of any manufacturers, audio or otherwise, that makes guarantees. Guarantees have been thrown out with the bathwater for the last 30 years since globalization. And even the US manufacturers are lame and offer little guarantee. But I habe to say this: If I owned a pair of $30k speakers that I could not get reimbursed for if they blew, I might have found a way to test the preamp before hooking up to speakers. or asking Upscale to test at their own facility first with their speakers or via electronic testing. Its all 20/20 i know, but this day and age, unfortunately, we have to protect ourselves. Customers have very few rights anymore
I own a PL Dialogue Premium Preamp and HP monoblock amp driving my 15k Magnepan 20.7's and they sound amazing. I would suspect it was not the fault of the preamp but something else. Like following the basic process of how to shutdown your amp, or if he had the right amp driving his speaker. I've had PL gear for roughly 2 months and hadn't had one issue except that I've gained 10 lbs from doing nothing but listening to music.
Very solid thread. I currently have a Bryston 4BSST2 and planning to match it with a Prologue preamp, could you share your thoughts about this pairing? Or will going straight to Dialogue model make the difference? Btw, how big is the difference in terms of sound quality? It will be driving a pair of Dynaudio Contour 20. Thank you and stay safe!
I have sold Jolida / Black Ice Audio for 15 years and other brands as well. Primaluna is overrated. Many products are. Recently out of curiosity I bought an Old Chen EL34 amp for $325 new. Very well built, hand wired, made in China with a great sound. One set of inputs- but you can input a preamp no problem. Pure class B amp. Best sounding amp I ever had. The build quality is fine. Only 12 wpc but I have Klipsch speakers so that is more than enough power. I have a set of kitchen knives made in China. After 20 years those are still razor sharp.
What not understood with China is they commies and have not rule of law. They steal intellectually property and cheat then buy political support throughout the world to promote agenda. You like china go live there I buy you ticket.
TOTAL lack of quality control, MADE IN CHINA junk, what more needs to be said
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I bought a used PL, can't recall model, new was like $3300, anyway I did not like it. Not at all, Returned it. AS for Made In China. Wrong Most china amps are built like tanks to last forever. Something is faulty with your speakers. Has nothing to do with PL. I was surprised the PL did not sound good, (The music was sort of contorted in the PL preamp) as it is made in same factory as my fav amp, Cayin, Both are made in Sparks Lab.
What not understood with China is they commies and have not rule of law.
They steal intellectually property and cheat then buy political support
throughout the world to promote agenda. You like china go live there I
buy you ticket.
Thanks but the way things are going, due to the inability of so many to wise up to what you just said we won't have to go anywhere, the CCP will just come and turn us into them. Half the most active posters here already are card-carrying party members and rooting for it.
I have sold, bought, traded gear for years. Vintage, SS, tubes. I had a Scott tube amp, el84, for years. Made in USA. Sounded good, but not as good as the Jolida amps I sold, nor nearly as good as the Old Chen EL34 I recently bought. Prima Luna is made in China- those amps sell for 10 to 12 times what the cost is to the company- quite a profit. For modestly priced, nice SS go with Yamaha (too large for my cabinet) or Denon, or Marantz. Yamaha has a very nice sound. Jolida has a great sound, but there are very few of those in the used market. The company changed the name to Black Ice Audio, put out new products, and increased prices. The Black Ice Audio gear is not worth the money. I have considered a SS amp that I can fit into my stereo cabinet. The Old Chen EL34 amp sits on top of the cabinet. However, I really love the sound of the Old Chen. Best sounding amp I ever had. I am not keen on buying used gear- often had problems when I did. Tube amps are best with efficient speakers. I listen to a lot of jazz and folk, and classical guitar music. The OLD CHEN EL34 is a pleasure. I listen to music much more now that I have it. I have a set of kitchen knives made in China- after 30 years those are still razor sharp, and the wooden handles are still in excellent shape- those get used on a daily basis. If you have a limited budget and want to go with SS go for Yamaha as it does sound very natural. Or go with Denon- Denon is clear sounding. And believe me- the living standard of the average Chinese has been steadily improving. Do you know a Marantz amp will cost about 1/2 the American price in Europe? I would take the Old Chen over a Conrad-Johnson CAV45.
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