If you do a search in discussions (at top of this page) you'll be rewarded with all manner of thoughts and views on this, from those with first hand experience, to those who've never tried it and love to troll those who have. Just give it time.
I use a Audioquest Niagara 1200 and simply love and appreciate its contribution to my system. Better sound with lower noise floor, increased dynamics, etc. and surge protection. It also has a great grounding scheme which negated the need of my Gutwire grounding cables.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Hard to say if your Richard Gray Power Stations are up to the task without knowing the specific model number. The website does indicate that current models offer "balanced surge protection" but no info on protection level.
You might want to start by contacting the company and finding out if what you have is adequate or not. If you end up replacing your existing units, the higher-end Audioquest and Furman power conditioners are solid choices. |
I appreciate these suggestions. Thanks |
If your only concern is surge protection you might consider getting a whole house surge protector installed at the panel by an electrician.
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I wonder what "Balanced surge protection" is. Both 120vac legs are tied into the Power station? Neither can get a surge because both rails are protected? In case a piece of EQ wasn't on the same leg? Just wondering?
Regards.. |
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If you are buying a costly power unit and you hope for improvement in sound, the common advice TRY before you BUY is important. Power units' effects vary by system. I have had good results with the Torus RM-20, but that doesn't mean you will like it. It is a pretty no-nonsense solution.
If it's just surge protection you are after, I second the idea of a whole-house surge protector, professionally installed.
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I have a whole home surge protector. I didn’t know if I needed something more. I was also curious about the benefits of a power conditioner |
If you are in an area where you get a lot of lightning in storms then yes I’d suggest getting additional surge protection as a backup to the whole home surge protector. I’ve had to have a couple WHSPs replaced due to lightning striking that close, and luckily the WHSP did its job. My power conditioner includes surge protection, If you decide that you don’t want a power conditioner you might consider a Shunyata Venom Defender for additional surge protection, plug into an unused outlet where you have the equipment plugged in.
Specific to a power conditioner I’ve definitely found improvement from using one.
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If the priority is surge protection check out SurgeX |
You want to protect and to filter. The problem is that filtering places resistance in series that causes big voltage drops and kills dynamics. Most of power supplies take current from mains in short spike of huge amplitude (about 10 fold of average). I use Furman Elite 20PFi. They call it "Power Factor Correction", but in reality it is huge inductor in series with large capacitor (in parallel to load) that stores energy delivering up to 55A current for spikes (it presents resistive load to mains). It also has very tight non-sacrificial over/under voltage protection with circuit breaker, that resets itself. https://www.furmanpower.com/product/conditioner-power-ht-20a-power-factor-ELITE-20%20PF%20IIn addition, I installed whole house protection in form of dual 20A breaker (Siemens panel style), by just swapping breakers. Even if you have to hire electrician it is worth it. Today everything is electronic, including appliances and even bulbs. |
"Balanced surge protection" is an interesting name. Since our USA 120VAC power is split phase, single ended, balanced means it either works for 240VAC, which is balanced, or it applies the same filtering on the line and the neutral, even though it is an unbalanced line. (The only other option is it just a cool name and has nothing to do with the design.)
There are two schools of thought among engineers here. Some believe filters on the neutral line is a good idea, others don't. If you design this stuff, you will be in one group or the other, to be sure.
All the surge devices for which I design at work, have filters on the line and neutral. For audio work, I leave the earth connection alone, for industrial stuff, it often has voltage limiting on it from neutral to earth.
The "inductor in parallel with the line" term must mean in series with the line, since it is counter productive to put it in across the line, and in parallel means the line is shorting it out. If they mean something else, then it is not in parallel with the line. |
Stick with the Gray’s. They are parallel circuit devices....I have a 30 amp and 20 amp dedicated line installed. I live in S. Fl and I have a custom 1200 for the majority of my equipment(t.t., phono drive, Rowland model 12, Marantz BluRay, Classe processor, 2 other Jeff Rowland amps for surround) since 2009 and I also have 2 400’s daisy chained with my Jeff Rowland amp and Focal sub on the other side plugged into it....A custom 1200 is basically 2 400’s.... I have been in correspondence with Alex, the president of Richard Gray, as I had the same questions as you do about whether or not to pull the Gray’s out or not. Also in correspondence with the president of Straight Wire who lives in proximity to me(as I have S.W. power mains) and he has a custom 1200 to protect his gear. The Gray’s are well designed. And if I could ever have a confirmatory opinion, it was from Jeff Rowland himself. I asked him about the Grays. Will they detract from the sound. His Response: Jeff Rowland (Jeff Rowland Design Group) Aug 27, 2020, 8:58 AM MDT "Just leave the Grays on for the added ac mains protection. They most likely will not affect the performance in any way and likely improve the overall performance. The advice to not use added power conditioners is a general statement because there are some types that can limit current or regenerator types that do not work well with the power factor correction circuitry in some of our products. You should be fine with the Grays." If Jeff tells me the Gray’s are good, I am good...And while I have never had a lightning strike on my house, from what I’ve read, a Gray has never failed or melted down from a strike. So now, I’m in discussion with Jerry from Straight Wire to replace the Gray’s stock power mains and replace them with their 9 gauge Pro Thunder mains. But, Richard Gray does sell a house surge protector to be installed at the circuit breaker. I may ask Alex about that. By the by, my system sound fantastic. I'm not losing any sonics with the Gray's. I hope this helps. |
I go with cool meaningless name for "balanced surge protection". Whole house is the way to go. Better to have the surge protection as far from the equipment as possible. Does it really kill dynamics? Unless you are clipping what is the mechanism by why "dynamics" are reduced? How would it be different from the normal line voltage variation from say 120-127? Wouldn't that resistance make the spikes smaller and reduce noise and distortion?
The problem is that filtering places resistance in series that causes big voltage drops and kills dynamics.
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audio2design, Let's assume that amp draws from mains 1A during music peaks. It will likely be drawn in spikes of amplitude reaching 10A. If filtering coil has 1 ohm resistance it will cause voltage drop of 10V equivalent to 20% of max power loss. In addition inductor in series supposed to filter out high frequency content (electrical noise) while normal current (narrow spikes) also has high frequency energy. Of these two factors I would guess that inductive reactance of the coil will have bigger effect, unless inductor has high resistance (thin wire). Such power loss might only limit maximum output peaks in well regulated amplifiers but might still be audible at any output power in less regulated amps (zero feedback etc.)
My amp has the same dynamics plugged into Furman or the wall. Many people reported loss of dynamics with conditioners and that's the only plausible explanation I can come up with. |
Sorry but your example is too simplistic to be realistic. That 10V drop assumes the capacitors never charge. They do of course.
As well if there was 1 ohm resistance the spikes would not longer be 10A since current would be limited by voltage drop across the resistor (see charged capacitors above).
How would this potential loss be audible in a "poorly regulated" amplifier? That would require you justifying that there would be more noise with higher resistance. You have not done that yet.
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Capacitors charge in narrow current spikes, but they cannot charge to the same full voltage when there is voltage drop on impedance in series.
Perhaps spikes would be 1/12 less since we drop 10V of 120V. It doesn't change anything.
I did not say more noise. I believe that amplifier with less regulation will be less linear with changing power supply voltage. Less linear = more distortions (like loss of dynamics). |
Jeeeez I tried Richard Gray and they were awful in my system.
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ZeroSurge for protection fitted with an upscale power cord and outlet. Feeding a PS Audio Power Plant through an upscale power cord.
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So you think large spikes every 120th or 100th of second causing large voltage spikes with high harmonic content is going to create less noise and distortion than a slowly changing voltage at the same frequency? What is the music peak is at 180 Hz or above?
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Why do you keep talking about noise and voltage spikes?
The problem is in narrow current spikes (pulses) charging capacitors that increase power losses on any impedance in series.
During orchestra forte voltage on power supply caps drops. It is because of capacitor ESR, but also because of voltage drops on on transformer windings (copper losses) and any other impedance in series including power cord, house wiring, conditioner coil etc. Simply, power supply is not load regulated (voltage vary with load). Some unregulated supplies are better than the others often because they have oversized transformers. Increasing capacitance should also help, but creates another problem - lower voltage ripple that results in much narrower and much higher charging current pulses, that will create even more power losses (including core losses for hysteresis and eddy currents because of high frequency content). |
Wow, very much appreciate all of the comments even those I don’t understand! I was reading about the AudioQuest Niagara 1200. Anyone have experience with this device? |
Regardless of what you do have a whole house surge protector installed! Please. There are so many reasons to do so, too many to re-list here.
I use an Audioquest Niagara and can’t hear any difference verses when the Amp is plugged into the wall.
As for the wall; do you have beefed up hospital grade plugs or better? I can’t recommend that enough. Seriously.
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I am talking about noise and distortion because that is what we hear. The lower the resistance the bigger those spikes are, the bigger the harmonics of the AC and the bigger potential for THD due to AC harmonics.
We don’t hear power loss.
Those spikes are also only at 100/120 Hz so no "benefit" to frequencies above that.
Unless the amp is voltage clipping you have not made a good argument for true loss of dynamics though the loss would not be much different than line voltage variation. That resistance limits the peak current but extends the charge time so I your 10A example the peak may drop to say 5A but charge time increases and the voltage drop becomes small overall.
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@audio2design - Garth Powell (Audioquest) talks about current compression in power amps and its effect on sound in his "Power Demystified" article (link above), an excerpt of which is presented below....
There is an additional problem: In order to cover enough range, a
passive filter will require some inductance (the “L” in LCR), which will
raise the AC impedance somewhat and create a phase lag for power
current transients. This is of no consequence to video, computer, or
source audio components, as they utilize low-amperage constantcurrent circuits. However, this can severely current compress a power amplifier as its power supply draws down to supply an audio transient, while the power amplifier itself requires a large influx of current
to its power supply to maintain low-distortion operation.
To get around this issue, many passive AC power filter/conditioners
will isolate the circuits that utilize any series inductance for source
components only. The circuit without series inductance is set aside
for the “High Current” power amplifier outlets. If a power amplifier experiences current compression, the sound that results from an audio
system can be described as thin, anemic, muddy, and slow, while the
soundstage tends to collapse or pull with frequency during dense or
modulated passages.
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+1 mike_in_nc .... my friend bought Power Plant P600 Power Regenerator and was very disappointed how it affects the SQ of his system. First I thought maybe it warming up issue or he just too used to previous setup, but when I visited him after couple of weeks and tried different setups it’s was obvious for me too that this power unit has negative effect.
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Garth Powell writes some words but offers no proof or even solid technical discussion. This is word smithing for consumer marketing. The higher current the peaks the larger the instantaneous voltage change which is much harder to filter out for subsequent electronics. That so called compression only happens if you are driving the amp into clipping. If you are not driving into clipping no solid technical explanation has been presented for loss of dynamics. More likely seems a decrease in the THD unless clipping. |
audio2design101 posts11-08-2020 11:30am"Garth Powell writes some words but offers no proof or even solid technical discussion. This is word smithing for consumer marketing. The higher current the peaks the larger the instantaneous voltage change which is much harder to filter out for subsequent electronics. That so called compression only happens if you are driving the amp into clipping. If you are not driving into clipping no solid technical explanation has been presented for loss of dynamics. More likely seems a decrease in the THD unless clipping."
The current "compression" that Garth Powell refers to is what I would call current "starving" which can occur in power amps at levels lower than clipping due to transient voltage drops associated with high source impedance. The effect on sound has been experienced by many audiophiles, which is why many plug their power amp (or integrated amp) DIRECTLY into the wall outlet. |
The AC line only supplies voltage for a small part of the waveform every 1/100 or 1/120th of a second. If you are current starving the AC input the you are clipping. The relatively small loss of voltage on the secondary of the power supply due to some level of inductance on the AC would be fractions of a dB in top end.
Far more likely is inadequate components in the AC filter likely selected for continuous current rating but not the peak currents resulting in saturation of the inductor and increasing the THD not decreasing it like it should.
A universal statement about loss of dynamics without a critical look at the real mechanisms results in universal and likely often wrong statements applied to all equipment performing the same function.
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I have had excellent results with Shunyata Triton/Typhon. I was fortunate to get them for $4500 with 4 Shunyata power chords.
Their retail price when up to $18k! The change was stunning. The change in noise floor is so dramatic that the entire presentation radically changed. But Shunyata makes more affordable units.
A major part of their company makes units for medical and science.
Electron microscopes, etc. They hold many, many patents. |
Puppyt, get a Shunyata unit for your low level stuff and have your electrician install a whole house surge protector. Keep a spare handy as they are sacrificial like a fuse. It is best to keep amps away from the other equipment (preferably behind the speakers) and plug them into their own outlets. I do not use anything on them other than shielded power cables that I make myself. |
Unless the amp is voltage clipping you have not made a good argument for true loss of dynamics though the loss would not be much different than line voltage variation. That resistance limits the peak current but extends the charge time so I your 10A example the peak may drop to say 5A but charge time increases and the voltage drop becomes small overall.
This argument is nonsense. Charge time increases because voltage ripple gets higher, but capacitor get charged to the lower voltage because of the voltage drop on additional impedance in series. At the peak of the wave max voltage on capacitor is equal to source voltage (peak secondary voltage after rectifier) minus load current multiplied by the source impedance. Adding any impedance in series lowers voltage on capacitor at the same output load. |
You are saying the voltage ripple gets larger. Prove it. That is a common misconception that is actually not true. The worst case voltage ripple will not get worse with added resistance.
Yes the voltage (average) on the capacitor may be lower. I never discounted that. A lower voltage (which wouldn't be any different from a lower mains voltage) will limit peak output power, but we are talking fractions of a db where clipping will kick in.
Do the actual work. Consider the transfer function. Consider the transfer function in the frequency domain. Voltage ripple will not increase with added input resistance.
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https://www.changlightspeed.comBest solution I have found for surge protection, and conditioning (power line noise reduction). Better than AC regenerators or conditioners with coils. No residual artifacts at all. Power factor Correction included. I use the CLS 709 $1300. |
"highly filtered analog outlets" without inductors. Well that leaves you with resistors and capacitors, or just capacitors. If you just have capacitors then you are not highly filtered, and if you have a resistor, you have time lag.
"Video images are less convincing and enveloping." ... they said this about using inductors in filters and you expect me to take them seriously?
I could write more but, I find statements like this show either willing deception or ignorance on the part of the company.
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Audio2design I did not say that ripple current gets higher. You argued that voltage on capacitor doesn't drop because charge time is higher. I only stated that when charge time gets higher - ripple is higher (capacitor is charged from the bottom of the ripple to the next peak)
I only argue that at the moment when net capacitor current is zero (peak of the wave) voltage on capacitor depends on source voltage and source impedance. That's the peak supply voltage for the output stage. How much it will drop depends on total source impedance including house wiring, power cord, fuse, transformer windings resistance and added impedance of the filter in conditioner. If this filter is poor then voltage drop, especially on inductive reactance, can be high. Even if we assume only 10% it will result in 20% loss of max power - equivalent to about 6% of drop in perceived loudness. I agree that in this case when amp is within 80% it should not be audible, but people claim it is. Perhaps voltage drops even more. Large linear supplies have a lot of filter capacitance reducing voltage ripple to very small resulting in even narrower and higher charging current pulses and much higher voltage drops on conditioner's filter impedance. Many people report big loss of dynamics with some conditioners. |
I chose the following option: power amplifiers - Isotek Super Titan, then added SR PowerCell Two. (An early choice was - Isotek Titan.)
Sources-PS Audio P10 - > SR PowerCell SX (primarily-PS Audio).
PS. Regenerators always killed my power amplifiers (Classe).
I've heard a lot of good things about Niagara from audiophiles, but I haven't tested it in my system.
I strongly recommend testing High Fidelity Cables MC and Bybee iQSE. I didn't return it.
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I only stated that when charge time gets higher - ripple
is higher (capacitor is charged from the bottom of the ripple to the
next peak)
Which is wrong. The next peak (voltage) will get smaller, and the total ripple will be lower. The high frequency ripple (which most impacts THD) in most amplifiers and can induct IMD will get much lower. Don’t believe me then feel free to build an amp and test it and/or simulate one. I only argue that at the moment when net capacitor
current is zero (peak of the wave) voltage on capacitor depends on
source voltage and source impedance. That’s the peak supply voltage for
the output stage. How much it will drop depends on total source
impedance including house wiring, power cord, fuse, transformer windings
resistance and added impedance of the filter in conditioner. Here you are totally ignoring the load the is not synchronous to the source. You can’t do that. That is where the error in your logic is. This only applies, to some degree, at much less than 2x line voltage. Dynamics we tend to associate with mid-bass.
If this filter is poor then voltage drop,
especially on inductive reactance, can be high. Even if we assume only
10% it will result in 20% loss of max power - equivalent to about 6% of
drop in perceived loudness.
You are treating the "inductor" as a resistor effectively, and the load as a constant current load, both in the DC domain with this argument. Again, that is incorrect logic. Even with 0 resistance, any frequency beyond 2x line frequency in the load (and effectively less depending on timing) mostly eliminates any benefit of charging in the short term.
Large linear supplies have a lot of filter capacitance
reducing voltage ripple to very small resulting in even narrower and
higher charging current pulses and much higher voltage drops on
conditioner’s filter impedance.
And again, if you add resistance or inductance, the size of those charging currents gets less, meaning the high frequency harmonics in them gets less (less noise / THD and potentially less IMD), and the length of time of charging gets longer. I use Furman Elite 20PFi. They call it "Power Factor
Correction", but in reality it is huge inductor in series with large
capacitor (in parallel to load) that stores energy delivering up to 55A
current for spikes (it presents resistive load to mains). Let’s look at your Furman. Do you really think it delivers 55A peak currents from that capacitor in your system with a linear supply? It does not, not practically at least. The only time it can supply anything into a linear supply is when the voltage on that capacitor is above the transformer reflected voltage on your linear power supply capacitors. The problem is the voltage on the cap in the Furman and the reflected voltage of the capacitors in the linear supply in the amplifier will be exactly the same as it progresses through the charge (AC) cycle. Effectively, the capacitor in the Furman ends up in parallel to the capacitors in the linear supply (reflected through the transformer) once the diodes start conducting and it does not end up transferring any power at the start of the charge cycle, and only a small amount at the end of the charge cycle when the AC voltage decays. It is likely a film capacitor and hence able to store much less energy than the caps in the amplifier power supply. The only time it will supply a large peak current (very short duration and not much energy), is if the amplifier has a large load right after peak of the AC cycle. For an LC PFC to be effective as PFC, it must be exactly tuned to the load including the reactive components in the load (i.e. capacitors). Odds are your Furman is rarely presenting something that looks like a resistor to the mains. The inductor does improve power factor and reduce THD on the AC lines, but effectively the capacitor is doing very little to help that due to the nature of the load. I will guarantee you that under peak loading, due to the inductor in the Furman, the rail voltage on your supply is slightly dropping, and that is a good thing, means the ripple/noise is being kept under control. I would expect taking out the AC capacitor in the Furman would have almost 0 impact on the DC rail voltage in the amplifier under loading but I would not suggest it. What it will be good at is suppressing high frequency noise coming in from the AC line. |
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It is not a matter of disagreeing of agreeing. This is objective engineering, not subjective listening. Everything in what I wrote is easily verified through simulations or building and testing. I will absolutely agree that added resistance whether real resistance or AC impedance will limit /reduce the maximum rail voltage and hence the peak volume, but I cannot agree as it simply is not true, that the effect and operation is as you described and to the to the level you described as that is simply not the case, no more than the real world performance of the Furman will be as they describe. I am not making that statement because "I believe" it to be true, I am making that statement as I know it to be true both from a fundamental engineering standpoint, and a practical, having done it, implemented it, tested it. measured it standpoint.
There may be something perceived as lack of dynamics with some filters and some amplifiers, but any real world loss of peak power using real music is going to be fairly small, and unless you are driving into clipping, loss of dynamics should not be an issue with any competently design amplifier. Instead of just taking the easy answer, which means the problem is never solved, it is better to find out what is really behind the perceived difference.
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I'm just tired of arguing, especially most of people don't follow the subject. I also don't understand some of your statements. Capacitor is charged only from the bottom of the ripple to next peak. Bigger ripple means longer charging time - ALWAYS!, but you disagree with this.
Ripple is a function of capacitance and load current. At constant load current when capacitors get larger (big capacitance) voltage ripple gets smaller hence current charges will be narrower (and usually of higher amplitude because of lower ESR). Yes, additional impedance will make charging pulses smaller, because they depend on source voltage divided by impedance in the charging circuit - but charging time will not get longer! It will be charged exactly the same amount of time - from the bottom of the ripple to next peak. Additional impedance in the charging circuit will only result in the voltage drop and the lower voltage on capacitors. It does not affect charging time within each cycle.
Yes, Furman's output capacitor appears to be connected in parallel to electrolytic caps, but is not. It is on the the other side of the rectifier on the AC side. Voltage on this capacitor follows AC voltage cycle but any loss of charge caused by PS charging pulse is replenished from energy stored in the inductor thru the whole cycle. In addition this (huge!) capacitor has very low ESR. That way during narrow charging pulses current comes from this capacitor and not from the inductor. Removing this capacitor would have huge effect on the amp. Just connect big inductor in series with mains and you will see results. There are power supplies that charge/discharge capacitors during whole cycle because they have big choke in series but then capacitors' voltage is an average and not the peak of the waveform.
Perhaps we're hijacking this thread?
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Bigger ripple means longer charging time - ALWAYS!, but you disagree with this. No it does not and until you understand this you will never be able to move forward. It only means more ripple IF the charge current is the same, and the charge current will be much different with added resistance. Ripple is a function of capacitance and load current. No, it is a function of capacitance, load current, and the way the capacitor is supplied with power. Yes, additional impedance will make charging pulses smaller, because they depend on source voltage divided by impedance in the charging circuit - but charging time will not get longer! Of course it will get longer. How do you think an LC based PFC works? It works by essentially extending the conduction angle .... i.e. the time the capacitor is being charged. Yes, Furman’s output capacitor appears to be connected in parallel to electrolytic caps, but is not. It is on the the other side of the rectifier on the AC side. Voltage on this capacitor follows AC voltage cycle but any loss of charge caused by PS charging pulse is replenished from energy stored in the inductor thru the whole cycle. In addition this (huge!) capacitor has very low ESR Again totally wrong interpretation of what happens. The diode starts conducting when the AC capacitor that is not at all huge in terms of capacitance compared to the amplifier even adjusted for voltage (it will be a film capacitor versus electrolytics in the amp ....way less storage per volume). And no, the capacitor is not "replenished" the whole cycle. Some of it is being discharged, some it is not. It’s voltage follows the AC line with a lag angle determined by its capacitance and the inductors inductance. Once the diodes start conducting, then the lag angle is a factor of the inductor, the AC capacitor and the dominance DC capacitors due to their much higher reflected capacitance. When the diodes are conducting, the "PFC" capacitor is essentially in parallel with the capacitors on the amp (with the exception of the diode drop). The ESR of the film capacitor is almost meaningless as it does not charge the capacitors of the amplifier. We are not "arguing". No offence, you appear to have some technical acumen, but you view of how this all works is quite wrong. |
Charging pulse starts at the bottom of the ripple and ends at the peak of the waveform. When ripple is larger this time gets longer. When you comprehend this we can go forward. Amount of ripple depends on capacitance and load current and does not depend how capacitor is charged since ripple is an effect of voltage drop during capacitor discharge cycle hence has nothing to do with capacitor charging. The way capacitor is charged will affect voltage on capacitor but ripple will be always the same percentage of this voltage. When you comprehend this we can go forward. The ESR of the film capacitor is almost meaningless as it does not charge the capacitors of the amplifier. ESR is very important since any ESR in the charging circuit will limit maksimum voltage on capacitor. When you comprehend this we can go forward. Of course it will get longer. How do you think an LC based PFC works? It works by essentially extending the conduction angle .... i.e. the time the capacitor is being charged. No it won't. Voltage droop on capacitor after peak is related only to capacitance and load current. Amount of this voltage drop (amplitude of ripple) defines width of charging pulse, since capacitor is charged only from the bottom point to next peak. This bottom point was defined by discharge cycle thus charging has nothing to do with it. PFC does not work by by extending conduction angle but rather eliminating (shifting) phase between voltage and current to present resistive load to mains. Averaging (filtering) current pulses coming from PS to draw current from mains during whole cycle is exactly what Furman does. They call it (improperly) Power Factor correction but it does not change any conduction angle. It only averages current pulses over whole period. When you comprehend this we can go forward. Your understanding of electronics is poor, IMHO and I find you keep arguing just for the sake of it. Sorry, for the "when you comprehend..." but that's the unpleasant language you use and another reason I don't want to continue discussing this and perhaps anything else in the future. |
Charging pulse starts at the bottom of the ripple and ends at the peak
of the waveform. When ripple is larger this time gets longer. When you
comprehend this we can go forward . It is impossible for you to discuss this as you don't understand what is happening. It is unfortunately obvious to me you have never had something like this on the bench, never had something like this in a simulator. You are just trying to run it through your head and are doing it wrong. You repeatedly assume the charging current is the same in all circumstances. If the circuit changes, i.e. you add resistance or inductance to the charging circuit, then everything changes. The waveform of the charging current changes, the total conduction angle changes, etc. Amount of ripple depends on capacitance and load current and does not
depend how capacitor is charged since ripple is an effect of voltage
drop during capacitor discharge cycle hence has nothing to do with
capacitor charging. You are painfully showing here that you have no idea what is actually happening in the circuit. Sorry can't call it any way but that. Unless you learn this is not the case, you are unable and uneducated enough to discuss this. That is simple reality. It is not my job to teach you about the basic concept of choke regulation in a power supply, but it is your job to learn it if you want to call other people "low in knowledge" and not have egg on your face.
Amount of this voltage drop (amplitude of ripple) defines width of
charging pulse, since capacitor is charged only from the bottom point to
next peak. This bottom point was defined by discharge cycle thus
charging has nothing to do with it.
Again, you are showing that you simply don't understand what is happening in enough detail to form any coherent view on what is happening. Amount of voltage drop does not define the width of the charging pulse. The amount of time the input voltage (rectified) is above the output voltage (rectified) defines the time of the charging pulse, literally by definition and by any coherent view of how the circuit operates. We have already determined that the average rectified rail voltage will be lower. Guess what, that means that the amount of time the rectified input waveform will be higher that the output increases. PFC does not work by by extending conduction angle but rather
eliminating (shifting) phase between voltage and current to present
resistive load to mains. I said the LC circuit in the Furman works by extending conduction angle, I did not say that was what PFC in general was. I can't post pictures here, but perhaps this will help you understand it a bit better as this is exactly what an inductor will do in a linear power supply. The C in the Furman as pointed out earlier, when combined with most audio amplifiers, will be near useless in impacting PF or THD for that matter. https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/power-factor-thd-why-linear-power-supplies-fail-...The fact this article shows the inductor in the output circuit is meaningless. It would work exactly the same in the input circuit, obviously with the inductor value adjusted based on the transformer turns ratio. The L in the Furman absolutely increases power factor in a linear amplifier. It absolutely is power factor correction for a linear amplifier, however, its effectiveness will be highly dependent on amplifier capacitor bank size and odds are it will rarely result in a high power factor. Based on what you have written here, by understanding of electronics and especially power supplies and power electronics is obviously way more extensive and accurate compared to yours. Here, maybe you can increase your knowledge so we can have a proper discussion: https://sound-au.com/lamps/pfc-passive.html#accOh, and P.S., even if your capacitor bank is larger once you hit a practical size, the peak current and the charging waveform starts to look the same. I will let you figure out why, but this may give you some hints, see section 5.3. https://sound-au.com/power-supplies.htm |
spatialking285 posts11-07-2020 6:07pm"....The "inductor in parallel with the line" term must mean in series with the line, since it is counter productive to put it in across the line, and in parallel means the line is shorting it out. If they mean something else, then it is not in parallel with the line."
The SoundStageNetwork and Stereophile reviewers (see links above) both state that the inductor is wired in PARALLEL with the AC line. An interesting departure from more modern designs in which series-mode surge suppressors use an inductor wired in series with one leg of the AC line.
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Yeah, I still believe his is marketing wording talking here.
Given how an inductor works, putting it in parallel with the line is counterproductive. The word "Parallel" here means connected from Line to Neutral or from input to output with the grid wire shunting it. Either way, it is counterproductive - in the first case, inductors don't work that way, in the second case, it is effectively out of the circuit path.
They could, and probably do, use a common mode inductor, which would explain using the word balanced, but the two inductors are still in series with the load, not in parallel with it and definitely not in parallel with the grid line. The RFI capacitors, MOV's, resistors, GDT's, voltage clamping diodes, will all be across the line. that is, connected from line to neutral.
Reviewers often quote manufacturer's literature in their discussion, so the fact that reviewers state the same thing doesn't mean they verified the claim using standard engineering electrical terminology. |
@audio2design,
Though I am not conversant with electrical design, I can see you are.
Trying to get through to some members is like 'preaching to the choir'.
Bob |
