Phono Stage Upgrade

OP,

Congradulations. You will really be more impressed after a few hundred hours. Full break in 1,000 hours.

For those waiting to hear how the story ended, I am sitting here listening to "Somethin' Else" through an ARC 3SE and liking what I am hearing from the start. I must admit that the unit itself sort of dominates the system, but I am looking forward to getting to know how it performs across the range of my collection. 

Thanks to all for your help and insights. Happy listening!

The cheapskate here.

I use a Shure A86A SUT. 

Cost? About 150 bucks. 

Wouldn't buy used or new unless had a chance to listen first. 

 It isn't whether tubes, these or those, it is more about the implementation of the tubes. Price doesn't guarantee performance. But, considering your question, it would be good to know the truth for the sale of a used product. Instead, there are often catch phrases used to set you at ease of buying someone else's equipment.  Often times I will see-- "upgrading to new equipment", "I have too much equipment", "wife says sell", and my favorite, "going in a new direction." I certainly am not saying these are all tales to lead you on, but, is that the real reason for the sale?

 Lastly, when buying new or used, is there the option of return if you hate it? I wish that I had thought that through before wasting time and money. The power of impulse buying (even impulse from the past, "I have always wanted one of these) is great. Ok, now I'm done. Good luck.

I continue to lean towards the ARC 3SE and have been offered a barely used trade in with about 60 hours on it. The photos look great and the store was recommended to me by someone I trust. 

Being new to tubes, I am not sure if it is better to buy new or to save a bit more than $3k. 

Thoughts?

Well guys, it was a mix of different equipment in that 2 were kits, and two were commercial. It will come as no surprise to those who may have owned a Vincent PHO8, that it was the first to go. In spite of the fact that it was very quiet, it sounded dead to me. I thought that this would hold me over while I was building a great kit from Glassware Audio. I won't go into it much at this point, but suffice it to say that the instruction manual lacked information that only an engineer might know. This along with a circuit board that had been 'modified' on one channel, but not the other led me to insanity. I sent the whole, heavy unit to a tech in Florida that really does know his stuff. He sent it back in working order (after 4 months) but I only use it for headphones. (Something in the rest of my system probably has issues, as it sounds terrible unless connected to headphones using the same brand of amp). Don't bother to advise me on this particular issue. I am done with it.

  So, I built yet another kit. This time from Pete Millet. Completely different design, and I am very impressed by the sound, yet I had a lot of trouble getting rid of hum issues. The result was to put the power supply in another chassis. Before I forget, the COVID thing made a problem in getting the proper Cinemag inductors for the unit. That cost me about 6 months' time!  As it stands, I am currently using it and will probably continue to for a long time.

 Now, the kicker. I bought a used Jolida JD 'something' I forget. If you leave it alone you will be just fine. But not me. I had to open it up, and go to a site that shows all the mods that can be done. I think that it sounded just as good to start with and the mods only would help if something was already in trouble like an old electrolytic capacitor for example. Don't ask me why, but I sold it. The customer had issues with it that I never had, like picking up radio stations, and some hum, I think. I got the unit back in my system and no, not one issue of that nature. It worked very well. Now the customer has it again, but the same issues continue. Is this Hi-Fi Hell or what?

 My point here again is all that I really wanted to do in the beginning was to play records, get it? What I should have done to save time and money, was to audition other phono preamps with a return policy. Even though I am relatively happy now, the price was too great. 

SPL Phonos is a great SS option. 

ARC makes some nice gear and there are lots of other options.

Modwright for one. 

@jemmer01 Michael Klein is a class act. Will help you make educated decisions. 

@4krowme

This puts you in a great position to get the perfect one next time. Read every professional review of the four phono stages you bought. You know what the four you owned sounded like. This should give you a solid basis to relate to the reviews. Then go to The Absolute Sound’s and Stereophile’s recommended components issue. You should be able to pick one or a brand (high end companies have a “house sound”) to audition or purchase.

Unless of course you are looking at preamps that are too inexpensive. Then fishing there may be the wrong place. Phonostages are really important and truly good ones cost money. My first Phonostage was a class A recommended one for $200… it sounded terrible… I upgraded until I got the AUdio Research PH8.

Please report back regarding your process and results. You currently have my analog front end exactly, and from the sounds of it, the rest is at least similar. I’d be very interested in your findings. In my setup, the Little Loco has been fantastic and bested all I compared it to, however ARC was not among them. 

@4krowme which 4?

Glad that someone suggested being able to listen and return such an item. I am still surprised at the many different types or levels of performance. Then of course is the matching and hoping to get the magic that this venture can be about. 

 I am sorry to say that in the last year or more, I have spent non-refundable money on 4 different phono preamps! I don't consider myself that picky, but I do know what I like, and apparently that is rare. Don't make this mistake. It is a waste of what is the most valuable... our time.

@coltrane1 -- not sure I understand your comment

If you’re spending more than $3k for a used BAT VK10SE you’re simply throwing your money away. 

If you’re spending more than $3k for a used BAT VK10SE you’re simply throwing your money away. 

There is a great ARC Dealer in Pittsburgh.  The shop is called Stereo Stereo, and the owners name is Micheal Klein.  I am not affiliated with the business in any way.

Good Luck 

Circuit boards not my preference.

@holmz 

 Absolutely best investment, more LPs!

Good call. 

@thr1961

I recommend looking into Konus Audio phonostage. I have heard nothing but high praises. Reach out to Colin @gestalt audio (Nashville, TN) for further consultation.

@mulveling -- your experience with your Koetsu is very helpful and so thank you. 

I see that there are two different outputs, the typical RCA and XLR, the latter I have not encountered previously. I assume I am good with the RCA, but am interested in the difference. 

At this point I am going to find a dealer on the East Coast to talk a bit more and would love any recommendations based on past experience. 

Thanks as always. 

Reference 3SE does fantastic with your RSP (I have both of these in my collection), so no issues there. It does great with the built-in JFET MC stage (High Gain), and also does great in Low Gain mode coupled with your SUT of choice (~20x being optimal for your RSP). 

It uses a PC with a 20A connector on the amp side, so that can be annoying in that you can't transfer over an aftermarket cord from your old phono stage. But the stock cord is good quality and fine. 

I have a ref one arc phono stage sold the krell kpa after I got the arc. I also have the phono stage in the Ayre k1xe pre amp. The arc is a big step up fro. The k1xe  phono section which I like better than the krell kpa. The old krell dealer told me the way to have the krell kpa sound wonderful  was to have two of them and run them true dual mono. One channel  into each phono stage.  You have the cartridge  that I lose sleep over. That is a wonderful  one. I have  ever heard a stone body  but they are to heavy  for my setup. I have a linn lp 12. I retubed  the arc with reflecktor tubes there 6922 equivalents.  Very nice in my system.  Sorry I cannot be more help. 

Of course the danger with the question I posed is that it opens the door to all sorts of adjacent topics and education!  I suppose that is why some of us are continuously reading, discussing and adjusting.  I will note that I definitely took the time to listen to some more of the Bill Evans collection that arrived on Saturday as well as playing my original Blues and the Abstract Truth" for the who knows how many times...
 

So after looking at some of the posts it seems like there is a decision point related to the "type" of phono stage I should explore. The tube option noted multiple times (ARC) and then there seems to be a solid state option as well. My current Little Loco appears to be of the plug it in and it works and clearly there are others (Van der Hul) with the same philosophy. 

I am using a solid state integrated amp right now and am completely happy with it and have no plans to change (the LFD, Harbeth, and Palmer combo just works). So I should do some research on the approaches to phono stages and also the compatability with my Koetsu cartridge. 

If any of this helps clarify my goals, I am still interested in the respected opinions and suggestions of this community. Many thanks. 

I have been a long time user of ARC phono-stages for well over twenty years. Starting with the PH2, with many upgrades… each time researching alternatives and each time buying a newer ARC. I unhesitatingly recommend them. I now have a REF3. The most recent you can afford.

I am running a Koetsu Rosewood Signature on a contemporary Linn LP12. Although I am sure virtually any cartridge will sound its best through the REF3. It has individual settings for Standard RIAA and specific labels. 

There is a non SE REF 3 on audio mart for $8600.  It's been there a while.  I sold one about 1.5 years ago for $7500.  All the dealers advertise them at inflated prices used around $11000.  $8000 ish seems to be a fair and reasonable price.  If having the SE upgrades was that important you could always send to ARC or sell and buy an SE.  I bet you would be perfectly fine with the non SE.

Look at the Gryphon Sonnet at Goodwin's high End in MA.

Anything to do with Phono, get refund option!!!

@rhg3 — I have an LFD integrated amplifier 

@rsf507 — I am in Massachusetts 

I am not specifically interested in a tube phono stage, but more in leveling up my phono stage to that of my tt

My Koetsu is moving coil and so I want to optimize for that. 
 

I hope this helps clarify. 

From what I read, and from what people with experience have directly related to me, there are a few very good options, and neither would necessarily be wrong, but just different:  Ypsilon and EM/IA phono stages could be considered two of the best MM phono stages, both of which would require a specifically designed SUT to use with a particular MC cartridge;  then there are the impedance/current based phono stages, such as CH Precision, Van der Hul, and others, which allow you not to have to contend with loading, etc; then there are the standard MC phono stages, of which there are probably dozens that are comparable. 

Since you mentioned interest in tubed units, this looks like a good deal.

Being the "SE" model, you're getting upgraded components putting in on the level of an ARC. A "best buy" for a little over $3K.

Balanced Audio Technology VK-P10 SE, Speci... For Sale | Audiogon

Review

Balanced Audio Technology VK-P10 phono preamplifier | Stereophile.com

It'll be difficult to do better than the phono stage in the Convergent SL-1 IMHO.

@thr1961 What preamp and amp are you using?
Thx

Consider Zesto Audio; several excellent high quality phono stages.

Thanks all. I am interested in the experience others have had with the 3se and Koetsu or similar carts. 
 

@noromance — I saw the dealer locator on the site but there is no one close to local so was looking for recommendations based on past experiences. 

OP if you can you should have a listen to whatever phono stage you plan on buying first. Otherwise it could be a costly mistake.

Your table/arm and cartridge deserve a higher caliber phonostage.  You want the ARC Ref 3SE, not the Ph9.  The ARC Ref 3SE will be a significant upgrade.  As you pursue further refinement, a silver SUT like the EMIA will bring out additional detail.  That has been my experience.

I currently have the Sutherland Little Loco, which has been not given me any issues at all. However, with my current setup of a Palmer 2.5i and the Audio Orgami arm plus a Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum cartridge, I am wondering if I am missing out on the potential of this combination?

I am wondering what you might be missing out on as well.
(I cannot imagine it would be very much.)

Maybe more LPs?

ARC have a dealer locator on their website.

https://audioresearch.com/north-american-dealers/