Perfect Vinyl Forever

I was an early adopter of Paul Frumkin's enzyme cleaning formula way back in the early 2000s? I used my VPI 16.5 RCM with his product with great results. Moving forward to a couple years ago I was gifted a US tank and spinner. My friend had purchased a big buck automatic unit. My experience over the last couple years has been that US cleaning is far superior to the previous method. I have no problem cleaning my prized records 2 at a time. I have been running them through the US tank and then the VPI 16.5. I have also run them through a second or 3rd time if needed. Until a new technology comes along, this has tuned out to be new dimension in quiet vinyl for me. 

I got my first shipment of LPs back from Perfect Vinyl Forever today.  This included my 14 LP  Beatles Collection from MoFi (circa 1982-3). While handled carefully, they were subject to the treatment common for that time which was DiscWasher fluid and brush. Playback was done using my Rabco SL-8E tonearm mounted on a Technics SL-1100A table which served me well for quite a few years (and also illustrates my age). I'm sure there was residue in the grooves from the treatment.  I played a few sides today and the LPs had absolutely silent backgrounds with excellent sound quality. I am very impressed and satisfied.

They have also upgraded their Archival process to version 4.0.

@jw944ts 

I may know someone that has used the service.  I was killing time yesterday in a lp store in Oak Park, Il, and ran into a former colleague doing the same that I hadn’t seen in years.  Turns out he is a vinylphiliac and we got around to discussing record cleaning.  He mentioned that he found a service “outside of Milwaukee “ but he couldn’t remember the name.  He has a child who has moved there and so he does his drop offs and pick ups around his visits to his grandkids, so no mailing in lps for him.  He likes the results.  Not sure if this is the company that you are inquiring about, but PFF is located in Wauwatosa, a Milwaukee suburb 

From the website-

"When a vinyl record is pressed using heat and high pressure, the soft waxy and oily plasticizer compounds that are added to the base PVC polymer leave a layer on the surface of the record. This layer obscures micro-details of the groove."

What are these micro details- eye blinking and shoulder shrugging of the musicians?

T

I run all new albums through my vacuum cleaner. At first did it because “it was recommended”. Then I started seeing how much stuff was coming off, and if I didn’t, I could hear it and would have to stop playing and clear it. 

Larsman, I really didn’t ask my question in order to start an argument, but one must admit that “residual paper substance” and “substance residual from the pressing process” are not very specific phrases. Nevertheless I realize that many do as you do , cleaning brand new LPs. I just still wonder why.

@lewm - There is usually residual paper substance on the surface from paper, non-polylined sleeves. I understand that there can be substance residual just from the pressing process itself. These will usually not be that noticeable but it depends on your system and its sensitivity to surface noise. I just make it part of my record process - I open the record, run it through the DeGritter for a few minutes, and I'm good to go... Some people do the cleaning several times before they play even a new record for the first time, but once should be fine.

Definitely no residue streaming.  

Others have vigorously denied that there is any residue on new vinyl that would require immediate cleaning. I have no opinion but the idea is out there. Can you say what residual substance would need to be removed?

@aubullience - indeed, there is residue from the pressing plant on new records, especially if they are not in poly-lined sleeves. I run every new record through my DeGritter on medium cycle before playing. Just takes about 6 or 7 minutes and I can do other things in the meantime, and I always put them in new poly-sleeves like those Mo-Fi ones, though there's not really much difference between brands (except Mo-Fi charges more for their's). 

I just received the shipping box from PVF and will be sending in 16 LPs.  I am sending in a MoFi 14 record set of the Beatles which I bought over 30 years ago. I'll post an update when I get them back.

I like Turtles

I’d also add that from a source mentality perspective, optimizing the choice/condition of the musical format/piece of media used in one’s system, in this case one’s LPs, is obviously a good - even a crucial- place to dedicate one’s attention and funds to help optimize the sound of the music. Almost without fail, I’d rather have a better-sounding recording playing in a half-decent system than a substantially worse-sounding recording playing in a superior system.

Yep and while i have a Degritter, i have been in past a very happy PVF customer. I said same on Vandy forum. Hopefully the OP has been helped.

I used the 3.0 process

This doesn’t address the original poster’s inquiry as much as it does the rationale for spending the money on a service like PVF rather than buying one’s own machine, cheap, mid-priced, or a high end model.

I’m not personally endorsing PVF, however, as I haven’t used them yet. I’m just sharing some feedback I’ve heard about them, and giving my rationale for personally using a service such as theirs, which may be relevant to how some other people here would analyze the matter. So here goes:

Over on the one of the Vandersteen forums there was a long-running discussion over the past year or two as I recall, about PVF’s services and outcomes. The positive feedback re. the service was universally positive there IIRC. The Hoffman Forums (crazy as they can get), could also be a place to search for feedback on cleaning services, PVF or other; and if the feedback there is similar to elsewhere, well, you have convergent validity at work.

Obviously PVF is not cheap, but we’re audiophiles, so most of us simply ask ourselves, "Is it worth it for my circumstances?" In my case, I predict it will be for me; though I could afford a high end U/S machine, I plan to try PVF out for these reasons:

1) I don’t have an enormous collection of LPS and I maintain my them well and don’t generally buy used ones nowadays, so the service, even in the long run, many not cost so much more than buying a high-end machine, which I would otherwise buy because I want the most convenient, effective result.

2) Even high-end cleaning machines can malfunction or break down, which usually means it becomes an unsolved chronic problem for me, given time and focus constraints on my part; and I’ve had some back luck with new and used gear in recent years, and REALLY don’t want to build or risk in that additional potential hassle. Others’ valuation on this point (which applies to mechanized approaches and obviously not to something like a Discwasher) obviously may vary. But given my evolving neurosis about dealing with equipment malfunctions, this is a substantive part of my calculus here.

3) Even if the machine has a long-functioning, healthy life of use, I’ll still save time using a service like PVF, and I’m not getting any younger and I already devote too much time to the audio end of this hobby. My collection, though not huge, IS large enough that it would take a while to get through all of the LPS I have.

4) All the feedback I’ve heard/recall, from the Vandersteen forums, here, and elsewhere, suggest that PVF’s results should exceed what I would get from my efforts, even if just by a small margin, and perhaps by a substantially larger one, on most LPs I’d send to them.

5) Evidently LP cleaning makes even ’clean’ LPs sound better due to molding agents or whatchamacallit during the manufacturing process that often remains as residue on new lps. I haven’t cleaned an LP since the 80s or 90s, so it’s hard for me to recall; but this is what I keep hearing.

6) I talked a while back, and for a while, with the owner of the business and he did strike me as a thorough and serious individual, and a bit obsessive re. these matters in a positive manner.

Ahh, the following seems to be the cause of all the confusing answers.

"I have quite a few LPs that I would like to clean better than with my manual technique.  It is not cost effective for me to buy an Ultrasonic device.  Any experience that can be shared with the mail in service, "PERFECT VINYL FOREVER"?"

Valuable advice followed such a claim.

Donut of the Month Award heading for the OP.

You are welcome @jw944ts and sad indeed! Reading comprehension seems to elude many on this site.

@grk 

Thank you for answering my simple question!  You are right about this thread....sad!

Well, I received my sixteen records back from "Perfect Vinyl Forever" and overall I am happy with the results.I requested the 3.2 cleaning process, plus flattening for two records. The records were returned in about twelve days in new sleeves and each sleeve had a sticker that stated the cleaning process used (and flattening) and the date.So far, I have listened to half of the records, before I go out of town.

I was "blown away" by the sonic improvements...greatly increased dynamics, clearer vocals, larger soundstage and (overall) how quiet (between notes) the records sounded. I have never heard records with that degree of "quiet"! I kept thinking that I was listening to master tapes. Some caveats though are that I still was able to hear some occasional ticks, but greatly attenuated. Also, I realized that there was likely some groove damage (from the pressing?) that no amount of cleaning will correct.

The records that were flattened are quite flat!

I am looking forward listening to the remaining records when I return from my trip!

"For the record" ; ), my TT is an Acoustic Signature Hurricane, with a Kuzma 4point9 tonearm and a Hana Umami Red cartridge.

Unfortunately, this thread seems to have gone off the rails with many "responses" that have absolutely nothing to do with @jw944ts original question.

This Topic "Was the straw that broke my back" I was compelled to respond. I suggest that you view my submission titled as: The "Very Best Record Cleaning Formulation"

Thank You,

Dr. S.N.W.    BA, MA, MChem, MBA, DPhil, DSc.

Alias:  Wizzzard

Years ago back in the 70s ,there was a product than claimed you spray this on the record and let it dry and your records are protected for Life.I bought it about $8 bucks a bottle. I must of bought 5 bottles .Did it work ,i don't remember plus i sold those albums off ,like 8 years ago.

As some have no doubt discovered,  multiple cleanings can help.  It was true with my VPI 16.5 and is still true with my Degritter.

With some LPs the noise is baked in during pressing.  I have an Anne Bisson that has been cleaned multiple times on the VPI and also on the Degritter and is still somewhat noisy.  I should have returned it, but was busy and thought I could clean it and make it quiet.

Y'all be cool,

Robert

@grislybutter 

  What a coincidence! That's what I was using it for. I sure do miss it. 

@roadwhorerecords it's holding up my roof, so not now :)

@grislybutter 

  Thanks, I lost one yesterday. Please return ASAP, it's my favorite nail. 

@terry9  No matter chronological age, some people aren't mature enough to deal with any advice, even if well-meant but perhaps mistaken as mine might have been. A reasonable response could have been "I see why you say that about 2007, but actually I had an advanced machine...." and so on.

What this site needs is an 'ignore' function. Then he could ignore me!

@wolfie62 

You write, "So your ASSUMPTIONS about my unit are way off base! "

I made NO assumptions. I shared three possible reasons for your getting different results. Why so angry? Why so defensive?

And again, "You don’t have the expertise to be making the bad judgements that you’re casting out here." 

Are you claiming that only you have the expertise required to make bad judgements? Doesn't that make you nervous?

I own and occasionally use an Ultrasonic cleaner.  Most of the time I clean with an old Nitty Gritty machine that I converted to totally manual operation.  I spin the record by hand to "scrub" in both directions and I then thoroughly vacuum away the cleaning fluid; again done with manual rotation.  For almost all my records, this kind of cleaning is sufficient.  But, on a small handful of used records I've purchased, even the most thorough cleaning did not get all of the crap out of the groove.  I thought the noise and distortion on some of these records was from groove damage.  But, following ultrasonic cleaning a small number of records improved dramatically, evidently from removing gunk that was practically glued to the record.  It is such a small number of records that cleaned up better with ultrasonic cleaning that I do not think it is an essential tool; but, it is something that does work.

I was in the same boat as you and decided to use PVF exclusively for cleaning all my records, new or used. I think the service is great, but I do have some records with a few clicks and pops still. So perhaps Perfect Vinyl Forever isn’t so "perfect". But I’ll keep using them.

Wolfie, I am just curious.  You stated that US cleaning is naught but a fad.  Then in the same post you said you had some LPs cleaned professionally and that you were dissatisfied.  This led you to clean them yourself, presumably with your US cleaner described above in your second post.  You were happier with those results.  And now here you are touting your US cleaner.  So, which is it?  Do you think it’s a passing fancy or a real “thing”?  Also, what is the point in saying that US cleaning is less effective on soft materials than on metals?  By inference, are you suggesting again that US cleaning is not so effective on LPs?  But why even say that; if you give your cleaner enough juice it could probably reduce an LP to particulate matter.

I found a nail in the bottom of my shoe this morning

 

@wolfie62 Dogberry is right. US can’t cure abused records, but US gets the most from the records you have.

I run a high power lab unit at 80KHz, 2 records at a time. If you fill a low power unit running at 40 KHz with 10 records, you won’t get much cleaning.

Full disclosure: ESL system, air bearing turntable. I think I’d detect a null effect.

@terry9 and @dogberry

I got my 10L US tank in 1999, from a closed down lab where I worked. Made in USA, used for prototyping metals prior to engraving, chemical etching, coating, printing of SS, silver, copper, brass, bronze, gold alloy, gold-clad, titanium. My unit has digital settings for frequency and power: 36 kHz-100 kHz, 100 watts - 1000 watts. I tried many frequencies and power levels. It even does programmable frequency sweep cleaning. 

So your ASSUMPTIONS about my unit are way off base! And BTW, US cleaning is far less effective on soft materials than on metals. So you can keep your assumptions to yourselves. You don’t have the expertise to be making the bad judgements that you’re casting out here.

"Not worth the money or time. That’s what folks are telling you, but you’re not listening."

Apparently someone did not read or comprehend the responses!

"I have used PVF probably a dozen times over the past 5 years. It is an excellent service. Very professional. Never a hiccup. 
I clean my records once with PVF and they don’t need to be cleaned again but for an occasional rinse. If they are handled with care and returned to sleeve right after usage. No need to bother with a home unit I have found. "

you responses are appreciated, BUT AGAIN, I am asking not your opinions on various LP cleaning methods, not your personal preferences, not what machine(s) are preferred or Hz levels,  not whether you think the price per LP is reasonable, BUT simply experience with sending LPs to others to have them cleaned...how was the service itself, the results and your overall satisfaction.....thank you
 

Not worth the money or time. That’s what folks are telling you, but you’re not listening.

The best service is to handle your vinyl carefully and correctly. That way they should stay clean and won't need anything but to be played and enjoyed.   AB

I use Bug and Tar Remover and 0000 steel wool to clean old, rusty metal car parts.  I glanced over at my vinyl collection and rejected the concept of duplicating the process.  It was one of my better life choices.

I don’t know the service.  I live in Chicago and found a local dealer with an ultrasonic cleaner who charges less than half of what the service the OP is asking about.  I hope that gives him some perspective 

I guess about 200 records. 

@gmercer  Can you estimate how many you've sent in those 5 years...?

I have used PVF probably a dozen times over the past 5 years. It is an excellent service. Very professional. Never a hiccup. 
I clean my records once with PVF and they don’t need to be cleaned again but for an occasional rinse. If they are handled with care and returned to sleeve right after usage. No need to bother with a home unit I have found. 

you responses are appreciated, BUT AGAIN, I am asking not your opinions on various LP cleaning methods, not your personal preferences, not what machine(s) are preferred or Hz levels,  not whether you think the price per LP is reasonable, BUT simply experience with sending LPs to others to have them cleaned...how was the service itself, the results and your overall satisfaction.....thank you

@wolfie62  Dogberry is right. US can't cure abused records, but US gets the most from the records you have.

I run a high power lab unit at 80KHz, 2 records at a time. If you fill a low power unit running at 40 KHz with 10 records, you won't get much cleaning.

Full disclosure: ESL system, air bearing turntable. I think I'd detect a null effect. 

My Record Doctor cleans my old Vinyl to perfection...You don’t need to spend a fortune on record cleaning machines...just $229......

wolfie62: not all U/S are created equal, and back in 2007 you'd be looking at lower frequency and less powerful transducers. I clean with a Loricraft followed by a Degritter. I can't cure scratches(!), but it is rare for a record not to be silent after that.

@jw944ts  How many is "quite a few"...?

US cleaning is just another fad and glitz show that’s currently ruining its course among vinyl newbies.

I quit using US back in 2007. Too inconsistent. Got tired of having to clean the “clean” records! Fact is, just got 5 “professionally packaged and Ultrasonically cleaned” records yesterday. Looked GREAT! Bright and shiny! Then on first play: Noise and garbage! Par for the course. I recleaned each of them. Now they’re quiet and sound great. No way of knowing with US cleaning tanks. Until you drop the needle.

I have used the service, and I would say it is just what you would expect. The records come back very thoroughly cleaned, although in some cases that does not mean they are perfect.

Without my requesting it, PVF also dewarped several of my records that needed it.

Turnaround time is about 2-3 weeks. Records come back as clean as you could get them with an ultrasonic cleaner on your own. Packaging is very carefully done. Everything comes back in new, high-quality sleeves.

Hi @grk, the quoted price sounds reasonable to me.  I don't have a big collection of vinyls (about 250+) to justify an ultrasonic cleaner.  Not to mention finding space for another piece of equipment.  I use a manual spin cleaner and it does a reasonable job, but I'm sure it can't beat a good ultrasonic cleaner.   

I'm especially interested in the "flattening" service that you mentioned.  I didn't know such service exists.  Would love hear your experience when you get those 2 records back.  Good luck.  Thanks!

PVF services cost $8/record for "Archival 3.0 " services, a nine-step process and $5/record for "Archival 2.0" services, a five-step process. I just received my mail-in box and will ship it out this coming Tuesday. I am hoping for the best as some of my records still have pops and other noise in the same spots, even after a cleaning with a KL Audio ultrasonic cleaner at a local record store. I can report back after my records are returned and I play them. I opted for the 3.0 service and flattening for two records.

There's a YouTube channel called SonicFlare. He interviewed the person who runs that service. A very intense cleaning with sophisticated equipment. I have not used the service since I have an ultrasonic cleaner and it serves me well.