Pass....Accuphase....or......

PS …if i was a younger man and wanted to spend more than my normal 3 months in Canada… i would seek to restart Verity…. 

I’ve had significant seat time w great musical happiness with subject speakers and a variety of Ayre amplifiers…. still a great company after CH passing. Ariel is agreat engineer…with ears

It’s not so much high volume I’m after but dynamics.

@southofdallas Proper ’dynamics’ should arise from the signal and nothing else. Quite often amps can generate higher ordered harmonics which the uses to sense sound pressure, so just as often these harmonics are mistaken for ’dynamics’. So you can see that in many audiophile conversations you can replace the word ’dynamics’ with ’distortion’ and not change the meaning of the conversation.

I’ve found (using LPs and CDs I recorded personally) that the mark of the best systems is that of a relaxed, effortless presentation even at higher volume levels.

You don't need great power for that; just finesse.

Ahh, there it is.

You have extolled some information that has no merit and now you say you won't (I say you can't) back it up. You were the one who challenged my post regarding the sensitivity of this speaker. I gave you facts to validate that assertion and you continue to disagree. You told me it's just my opinion and the facts prove otherwise.

Well what are those facts?

you can grow a beard waiting. Go back into your dive bar, find someone else to pick a fight with. You attacked me personally several times without me giving you any reason, I am not playing with bullies. 

Done with this conversation, if you can't ignore it, I sure will.

@atmasphere It's not so much high volume I'm after but dynamics. I think too that an amp with around 100W and a good power supply is enough. I had a ML No.331 for some time and it was 100W and 100Kg (110 lbs). BIG power supply.

I listen to a lot of classical music live so I know what it should sound like. The thing I miss the most is often dynamics an air.

You are confusing facts with your opinion.
But you can just ignore my comments that would serve us best.

No, I'd really rather not ignore your comments. I find them perplexing and amusing all at the same time. This is a speaker that you have no direct experience with. And obviously your reading comprehension isn't very good either.

Why don't you tell me how a speaker with such technical specifications as the Verity Audio Parsifal Ovation can qualify as "highly sensitive".

Go ahead. I'll be here waiting.....

You are confusing facts with your opinion.
But you can just ignore my comments that would serve us best.

@southofdallas Something to consider: In most rooms if you need more than 100 Watts to make the speaker fly, the speaker is likely impractical. This is for the simple fact that, to make the speaker sound twice as loud you'll need 10x more power; in this case 1000 Watts.

Its much easier to build a lower power amp that can sound like real music.

@ozzy62 Thanks. I sure like to test one of those SMc-amps some day.... Who knows, there's maybe a couple here in Europe somewhere.... 

What power amp did you use with the Parsifals?

When I first got them I had a 300B amp that I immediately sold because I knew that wouldn't work. I borrowed a friends 60 wpc CJ amp and it sounded ok at low volume, but fell apart when goosed a little. I then bought a pair of 150 wpc Tsakaridis Apollo KT120 monos. This was much better. But the best I heard the Parsifals was using an Smc  heavily modified DNA 0.5 (now GT-24 version). The high current of this amp was great with the speakers.

@ozzy62 I got the message. I agree with you. This speakers are not the sensitive kind.... Maybe the A-48 is the minimum. I always try to buy amps that double the power at half the impedance (BIG power supplies). In my experience they sound best, have more "air" and dynamics. I am just trying to avoid Mark Levinson this time...too much "Luxury" audio for my taste / wallet.

What power amp did you use with the Parsifals?

you can google what highly sensitive is before you comment

I don’t need google to tell me that 89 db speakers with a minimum 4 ohm load is not considered highly efficient....

BTW, try the Parsifals with an SET and get back to me on how that works out for you. I actually owned the speakers so maybe I know a little more about them than you do.

you can google what highly sensitive is before you comment

I really, really enjoy the sound of my Musical Fidelity A1-2008.  It is a class a amp, 35 wpc.  Gets hot as hell in the summer here in Sin City though. Out of production but MF recently released a 2023 or 4 version of that amp...

I compare my 2008 version amp very favorably to my 25 wpc OTL Tube amp which is a very transparent amp with midrange to die for...

@atmasphere I know. Those Atmasphere class D are getting

good reviews. The price is a bit high in Europe

but i will consider them too. 

If you have a minute....I need ideas in that price range...+/- $$. Thanks!

@southofdallas There are class D amps out there now that are every bit as musical as the amps in your original post. Less heat too, and less cost as well.

@Deep333

There are about 40 videos on utube of Nelson Pass discussing amplifier designs. He's very generous with information and one of the kindest humans. If you're interested, a good place to start would be interviews by Steve Guttenberg and Pass. If you dig a little deeper you'll find some videos of Pass doing design seminars with the DIY community. I thought these seminars were very interesting and I learned some things about various transistors, use of feedback, input stages, output stages, and lots of nerdy subjects.

@Deep33 - what I actually commented on was build quality. I've seen a number of failures of Michi products versus superb reliability of Pass. The fit and finish of the Pass's is better than the Michis. That matters to some, less so to others. As regards design, I have frequently found that products which have a consistent design approach which is refined over many years end up sounding better than those whose designs chop and change frequently. That's just my observation. Again, others may differ.

@yoyoyaya I can understand conventional electronics designed in the regular world of engineering, i.e. the non audio electronics because the "sonic attributes" of circuits is never taught in engineering at any level (masters, phd whatever), never presented in any coursework or even remotely considered in the non-audio world.

But, it is a very real thing.

It is a unique form of empirical information that is acquired by audio companies and held close (in-house secrets). Some sound master guy has to sit and listen forever to every li'l change and painstakingly derive such information. 

I claim full ignorance to all of it...

So, If you know something, enlighten me, i'm all ears. How is Nelson Pass playing on a different league than Rotel or Yamaha or all these other guys?

If a design space has say 20 possible permutations, a company with more resources may be able to explore more of them..A smaller company may be able to explore a few of them, etc.

What are these "leagues" based on?

@Deep33. You are clearly a savant when it comes to electronics. But maybe you are unfamiliar with the old saying "sacasm will get you nowhere". Best regards, Y

@Deep33. You are clearly a savant when it comes to electronics. But maybe you are unfamiliar with the old saying "sacasm will get you nowhere". Best regards, Y

@OP - The build quality of the Michis is not in the same league as the Pass.

@yoyoyaya not in the same league eh? Thought the Michis were a Ken Ishiwata project before he passed away.

So, care to explain how nelson pass is on a "different league" n all?

For whatever it’s worth, I own a electronics company. But, I am always learning, willing to be educated....Feel free to take your time, let’s go board by board and explore this dark art of analog circuits design together.. as you demystify it for me..

Thank you all! I think I get the picture.

And in case you are curious about how much Marc Levinson ....or Harman Luxury Audio wants to fix a working but overheating right channel on my No.532, the price is 50.000 USD + the cost to send the amp to another country and back. Real luxury ;)

@southofdallas I think @lanx0003 described Accuphase class A sound really well.  I would add that Class A Accuphase amps have a wonderfully liquid midrange that pairs so well with Verity Audio's midrange excellence. 

Another vote for the Pass XA25. It is driving a pair of Harbeth 30.2.

compared it to Ayre at twice the price and Luxman. To me and as reported by many, it is a very neutral and transparent sound. With a tad warmth and pure class A drive. It is being used by many reviewers as a reference amp in that price point because of its qualities.
i am not familiar with your speaker however and the synergy between the two is paramount. Why not try a second hand if you cannot audition? If not fully satisfied it can be easily be resold as it is a blue chip item. 

I heard A75, pushing Fyne speakers.  Warm, musical, extended high, rich mid, dark background and big SS.  Bass is nimble but not as 'punchy' as some class A/B or D amps. Never heard Pass but both pure class A are supposed to be excellent performers.  Both are able to maintain high current / wattage output at impedance even down to 2 ohm, with an output efficiency up to 100%.  The S/N ratio of Accuphase is higher relative to Pass (117 vs 97 dB weighted).  

@toronto416 how  did the sound improved with the Parcifals going from class AB to A? Would you recommend class A? 

Verity Audio Parsifal Ovation:

89 dB @ 1W @ 1m

Power handling 18 - 350 W

Nominal Impedance 8 ohm (minimum 4 ohm)

It's almost like a Harbeth in the sense that it's not likely to offend you. That said, you don't want cheap power either, cause that will show.

How about a Coda S5.5. The quality is just as good as Pass labs and they sound amazing. I have a #8 and it's amazing!

Coda Model 16 or the S5.5. I have had several Pass models, the XA60.8, and the 160.8, and each take a back seat to Coda in terms of well...everything.

they are highly sensitive speakers, why not a tube amp?

Because they are not highly sensitive speakers.

They aren't even mildly sensitive speakers.......

they are highly sensitive speakers, why not a tube amp?

@jc4659 

I have tried to drive this point home to the OP in two separate posts. I fear it will go unheeded.

I have not heard Accuphase amps, but recently added a Pass XA-25 to my system.  I have previously owned the First Watt M2 and Sit-3 amps.  I am using the XA-25 with high sensitivity open baffle speakers (100dB, 8 ohms) and Fritz tower speakers (unknown sensitivity, 4 ohms).  My description is that the sound is enveloping.  Detailed, beautiful.  It digs deeper into the music than my two other amps, a 45 stereo amp and 46 monoblocks.  I love those amps with the open baffle speakers, but the Pass in my system just makes me smile and listen for longer. I also get the sense that it has more powerful than advertised. Also it is built like a tank.

I do not know why people use the phrase “too polite” while referring to Accuphase.   I have no idea what that means.  I have an E-800 and a C-2900/A-80.  They each sound great.  

+1 @vinylvalet   The under the radar gem in amplifiers.

I have the XA 25.  Digital source is the Esoteric K-01XS, pre is Benchmark LA4, speakers Rockport Atria II (which, thankfully, I bought before the 50% price increase!).

Yes, it IS really good.  My room is a bit larger than yours, 25x45, and the XA 25 can fill the room - I listen to "classical" music and it is supremely satisfying.  Caveat: my speakers are 4 ohm so the XA 25 can deliver 50watts.

The XA 25 is actually push-pull, but is pure class A.  Pure is a word that I would use to describe the sound.  Do read the reviews, the professional reviewers can describe the sound (actually the absence of any signature) better than I.

It is 100% revealing of the source, unforgiving of poor recordings but displays the glories of the best.

I absolutely recommend that you audition this amplifier.

+1 @bjesien as an owner of the Parsifal Encore I totally agree with your recommendations for something with both power and a bit of bite.

I had the Parsifal Encore and they like to have some power 18wpc won't show you the potential of these speakers. You can also get something with a bit of bit as they are naturally pretty laid back.

The Luxman rec is good but after owning Luxman amps for 15 years I can't really listen to them anymore, maybe bored or just wanting something different.

Great speaker give them some breathing room and enjoy!

I have owned XA25 for 5 yrs.  25W Class A and it has over 80 W output capability.  I bought this brand because of reliability.  It is overbuilt!  It weighs 49 lbs.  It gets warm.  I have 100dB Klipsch Cornwall clones.  I use a passive preamp.  The sound comes through neutral with dynamics, clarity, great soundstaging.  This is the only Pass Labs built single ended.  

I have heard Luxman solid state.  It is warm and luscious.   An attempt to have a tubey sound.  This is not a bad thing. Not sure who services them in the US. 

Accuphase is near the top for solid state.  It is just a natural beautiful sound. It has been a long time but Accuphase and Klipschorns were memorable IMO.  A very small dealer network and not sure about service.

All of these companies make very nice equipment that you will not get tired of. 

I use an XA25 to drive a set of ZU Omen Def Supremes in a 24x21 room it is far more powerful than the ratings would make you think. The amp easily powers to 95 db at my listening position with power to spare. The ZUs are effecient. The amp is built like a tank. It is my final amp purchase I couldn’t be happier with a product. 

...Coda.

I have recently discovered Audionet and I am really enjoying an AMP 1 v2 and their PRE G2. They are worth an audition.

For what it’s worth, here is my input as a hardcore Accuphase fanboy. For amplification I have C-3900, and A-300s, driving TAD CR1TX. I’ve had other models before.

Please consider the following input based on my experience:

• Incredibly smooth and distortion free Class A power. If you like distortion, which sounds nice for some music, you can add it with DSP pro-audio plugins. If your chain has it you can never get it out. 
• The power ratings are always under specified. I’ve never had a lack of power even with smaller models at normal listening levels
• Extremely well made and reliable. I’ve never had a breakdown and don’t know anyone that has. Maybe someone here has experienced a broken Accuphase but it is unicorn rare. 

@OP  - The build quality of the Michis is not in the same league as the Pass. And yes, the XA 25 is quite different sounding to the 250. The 25 doubles its power as impedance is halved so it has a lot more real world power than the nominal specification suggests. Pass Class A amps are very refined sounding so they can sound less "loud" than some other designs - that puts some people off on a quick audition. The XA 25's input gain is slightly on the low side so you need to check overall compatibility with your system. I think your Veritys are on the high side of average efficiency-wise so it will probably work. As always, the best solution is to find a good dealer who will provide an audition with your own DAC/Pre and speakers.

I use an Accuphase A-36 power amp and Accuphase C-2450 preamp along with Fritz Carrera speakers and an Aurender A20. The sound is sublime. I owned a Pass Labs XA25, Boulder 866, Ayer VX-5 Twenty, Luxman 509z, and a few others and all are great amplifiers. However, I cannot recommend any over the A-48 you mention. The only reason I didn't go with something bigger than the A-36 is because my speakers do not require more power to achieve the great sound those Fritz speakers are capable of producing. I also use the A-36 with Klipsch Chorus IIs. Perhaps not a popular choice for many but I love their house sound and I also use a 10wpc Luxman tube amp that has a synergy with those speakers like no others I owned or heard. The ONLY other recommendation I have is get a matching Accuphase preamp. I have tried other premps, both SS and tube but the Accuphase preamps produce the best sound for me.

Pass Lab products have the reputation for being built to be extremely reliable. This reputation is based not on verbiage from their website, but rather by very rarely having a problem in peoples system.
They are typically very conservative in rated wattage and have huge power supplies that will happily drive most anything. They have a sound type, driven by listening tests more than specs.  They are slow to break in, so any audition of a PL amp should allow more than 100 hours before forming an opinion.
Good luck in your search!

Those Michi sure are VERY powerful....but I am leaning more toward the Accuphase brand.

toronto416: Nice company! I like their approach to business...no shareholders....no hurry.

Accuphase is an interesting company which produces high quality components in small batches by hand to very high standards.  They have limited their size and production volumes to 5,000 units and only have about 85 employees - 26 of whom are engineers.  They are primarily focused on the Japanese market and only about 30% of their units are destined for export.

According to the Management and Corporate Policy posted on the Accuphase website, they limit production to 5,000 units per year and are not looking to expand:

"One of the corporate principles that Accuphase has observed since its
beginning is the conscious decision not to pursue expansion. In a free economy,
most companies try to grow. However, demand is not unlimited. If we were to
chase the numbers, trying to sell more and more products and compete only on
price, we would lose our ability to create truly high-end audio components.
We therefore are not increasing our staff numbers (currently about 80, similar
to the time of the company's founding), in keeping with the principle of "small
numbers ‒ exceptional talent". Rather than trying to expand the scale of the
company, we believe in quality over quantity. We adhere to a low-volume
production schedule, building and marketing only about 5,000 units per year. But
with regard to the products that we are making, we passionately care about their
sound, their performance, their quality, and their design. We do not ship a
product unless it fully meets our exacting standards. This gives it lasting value
and ensures the excellent reputation of the Accuphase brand."

https://www.accuphase.com/company_profile/a2_management_policies_2.pdf