Paradigm Persona series

Yes I am planning to listen a Innuos Statement...I am from Portugal and is easy to have one in my home. Actually I have Antipodes CX + EX and I am very happy with this setup.

You guys aren't suggesting it took 2 years to get them dialed in? I would thing your co-recommendation for the Kef Blades would come with the same qualification that the right amp is needed to make them sing. 

If it takes more than a few hours to get a pair of 9H “dialed in” maybe consider another hobby.  Good lord.  To get them in the ideal placement in any room it shouldn’t take more than a week to two of fiddling.

No Cotuzzi dialed in is not placement, dialed in the combination of electronics, cabling, digital, vibration isolation, power conditioning, roon tuning. 

Right now we are in the process of retuing due to the addition of the Innous Statement. 

When you are assembling a reference grade system everything matters.

When we were shopping for electornics to run the 9H we went through, Devialet, Electrocompaniet, Conrad Johnson, Thrax, Chord, and finally the T+A gear which sounded the best with the 9H's in our showroom.

We went through many different power condtioners including: Running Springs, Isotek, Audience, and Audio Magic, we even tested the Audioquet Niagra 7000, the Audio Magic was by far the best sounding with our setup.

Recently the addition of the Critical Mass Center Stage footers made a very noticable improvement. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona, T+A, Innous, Critical Mass dealers

Steve with any reference grade loudspeaker you do not get the drop and plob sounds great trick.

Most truly high resoltion loudspeakers will only come alive with the right group of components.

Ask Brownsf, one of the posts which was deleted by the moderators because some negative people derailed the thread went over
Brownsf journey to get a newly purchased pair of Kef Ref 5 to sound good in his room.

We started corresponding via Audiogon which lead to a series of recommendations on an upgrade strategy designed to make his system sound really good, this included a new server, a new dac,new cables, footer for the speakers, a power conditioner and cabling and a few more tweeks.

This ultimately lead to a visit to his California home to demonstrate what we could get out of the speakers if they were working harmoniously with the right matching components.

Long story short the addition of the new server, dac, interconnects, footers, power conditioner and cablingalong with repostioning of his speakers created a system which in our opinion was more lifelike than his local dealers $300k system with YG Haileys.  We kept his original ARC electronics and speaker cables.

So the key take away is great speakers require synergistic blending of components, digital sources, cabling, room tuning and accessories before you can create real magic.

Think of it this way a $200k sports car can not perform with 86 octane gas and cheap tires, no matter how good the car is.

Just put the wrong gas and subsitute the uber expensive and high performance tires the car came with with any brand of tire and see how the car performs guarantee the results wouldn’t be too good either.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

I can understand what you're saying in regards to getting high performance from a system and a lot of us truly believe buying the speakers is 95%, that all amps sound the same, that if it measures good it sounds good. I don't think it helps manufacturers like paradigm that attract the cost conscious that their $35k speakers will probably sound worse than their $3500 speakers without a significant investment in everything else in the chain.  

If you believe that all amps sound the same, you either have poor hearing or haven't demoed on a decently resolving system. I don't disagree with your second point though, but everyone knows my opinion of the Personas in any event.

Anecdotally, my local dealer who runs a pair of Persona 3Fs in his second system at home says that he is done after a couple hours of listening.

Interesting read.  One of the most polarizing speakers I've kept up on in recent memory.  Lot's of parallels with the older Wilson's (when David was in charge and his team used that metal dome tweeter) that everyone always claimed need the perfect electronics and cables.  

Just very interesting.  

Speaking for the masses that will look at the measurements of a certain speaker and decide without even listening to like them or not, and there's plenty out there as this thread has shown.

I have heard the Persona 9H and prefer it to the Vandersteens I have heard. I don't own either and have no dog in this fight.

@audiotroy

"Most truly high resolution loudspeakers will only come alive with the right group of components."

Says the guy who sells crazy expensive cables, iso-footers etc.

Will a better source, amp, pre-amp and ROOM make a difference, sure. But that goes for just about any speaker above 2k.

But a "great" speaker shouldn’t need uber-expensive everything to outperform a "less resolving" speaker.

Take say, a Focal Sopra 2 and a Persona 7F, and something mid-fi, say a paradigm Halo A21, and a reasonable pre-amp, similar source, room etc.

The 7f should outperform the Sopra 2 hands down at almost 2x the price, without needing uber expensive everything.

In fairness, I don’t care for either speaker. (I think the Focus SE wipes the floor with both to take speakers in your line-up).

Keep shilling bro.

Trudat, your naivity shows through.

There are many speakers above $2k that will sound good with most electronics, however, most $2k to $10k speakers don’t have the same level of resolution, how do we know we sell many of them:

we sell Elac Adantes, PSB T3, Legacy Signatures, Kef R Series, ATC, Cabasse and a few others.

when you reach into the uber high resolution loudspeakers especially speakers in the $10k and above price range from Paradigm, Magico, Rockport, Rahido, and others they will not sound good on just any set of electronics, they must be matched with the right gear to sound good.

The Sopras are tuned a bit warmer and are a bit more forgiving then the the Personas, we have heard the Sopras and they are very nice speakers they don’t have the same degree of clarity nor do they image as well, they are lovely musical speakers.

As per the Focus Se wipping the floor we have them as well, and they don’;t wipe the floor over the Kef Reference line nor the Paradigm tney sound distinctly colored and veiled compared to either the Kef’s or the Paradigms, not saying that is a bad thing they are tuned to be musical.

The Focus are fantastic speakers but they are tuned warm in the midrange, a slightly recessed top end and big warm full bass, they are very easy to setup with almost anything because they don’t have the same level of clarity or soundstage specificity that the Paradigms do

In fact the Focus tend to sound better on brighter electronics

We heard Wilson XLF on Boulder with DCS and Nordost and the sound was unlististenable, we heard the less expensive Wilson Alexx with Krell and Nordost cabling and the sound was fantastic, so yes pairing is everything.

Just the same way when we tried out electronics with the Paradigms and the Polymers, we tried CJ, Electrocompaniet, Manley Labs, Devialet, Chord, Thrax and finally T+A which sounded the best out of all of these products.

A great system requires careful setup with the right matching components.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Paradigm, Legacy, Kef dealers

@trudat: I think you mean the Parasound Halo line which many don’t believe is mid-fi at all. Anyway I do see your point and this is perhaps one of the more frustrating aspects of the high end, i.e. dealers that believe just because you can stretch/reach for a $25,000 speaker means oh sure, just lets just spend another $25,000 on a new power amp, and another $25,000 on a new pre-amp and on, hey, how about those $1500 power cords, they will really bring it all together...I mean it does seem like it never ends. But of course they ARE in business to make money. I assume you work somewhere in a business that umm, exists to, umm, make money too. So I also try to keep in mind that dealers often DO have alot of experience with different lines...so often I guess my job is to separate out what I value about the advice I receive from dealers and what I can toss aside.  And again of course they're just ultimately trying to stay in business trying to make a buck, and I can remind myself I'm in charge of wallet, not the dealer.  And the only person I have to please is myself.

Pwinson it has nothing to do with cost. The Persona 3F sound very good on a Naim Uniti Atom which is a $3k intergrated, they sound way better on a Naim Uniti Nova a $7.5k intregrated amp, and they sound so much better on the Naim NAC 272 preamp/dac and the Nap 250 a $13k combo.

Does that mean that the Naim Atom didn't sound great for the money it sounded terrific, however, the sound took on much more bass, greater dynamic impact and greater clarity with the more expensive gear.

Part of the equation is matching gear, think of it this way a $90k Porsche can be rendered nearly undriveable with low octane fuel and the wrong quality and grade of tires. Buy a Porsch be prepared to feed it right.

We have put together some very good sounding Persona systems that were not crazy expensive but with a set of speakers this resolving you can easily hear everything good and bad in the setup. 

As per cost yes there are really good $5k amps however, most of the time they still leave some sonic signature that is not seen with the better gear.

We love the T+A gear and the $12,5k 2500R sounds amazing with the Personas, however, the $23k T+A PA 3100HV really takes the speakers to levels they just couldn't get to with the lower gear.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Pesona dealers

@audiotroy 

Ah yes, my "naivity" shows... of course, if that was a real word we could debate that.  I believe the word you meant to use was naivete (with an accent over the final e) or heck even naivety... or heck in plain spoken english... "my lack of experience".

Frankly, something you should hope your customers have when pushing cables, acoustic isolation systems etc... that cost damn near what the components and speakers cost.  

Sure, I don't own a store but you know 35 or so years of building audio systems, components etc. Should count for something.  But maybe I'm just a dolt.

Bottom line, a 25k speaker should not need a 25k amp to sound outstanding.  You more or less double talk in your later post regarding the 3f, amazing enough all the Naim gear sounds great with it.

Want to see a dealer adding value to the board?  Head on over to the digital board.  Jimclarkstereo offering an exciting new piece and making it real easy to try.

Sure it's not a paid add, but its better than constant shilling and twisting about how everything he sells somehow outperforms the original posters question.  Putting his money where his "post" is.  

Trudat you totally miss the point. It is not that you have to use uber expensive or every tweek in the book to make the Personas sound good, the issue is that there is way more than just good you can get out of a speaker with this kind of resolving power.

Yes the 3F can sound "good" wih much less expensive electronics like we mentioned, there is a difference between passing good and excelling.

Perhaps our standards are different from yours, we walk most shows and hear all the rooms and most room barely resigister as sounding what they can sound.

Tweeks are tools used to make a system come alive, power cords, vibration isolation, room tuning are tools we use to sculpt sound until a system sounds as close as possible to live.

It can take years to tune one system until it sounds magnificent. 

In the case of the Personas we went through many brand of electronics, tried a few different cable variations, tried different dacs, different servers different vibration isolation and added newer tuning tweeks like the Furutech NCF products until the system sounded as close as possible to real music. 

We have the T+A gear and the Krell, the T+A noticably outperforms the Krell gear, the Krell gear is less expensive and sounds great for the money, the T+A gear just sounds far better but costs way more. 

IF you hear this sytem with the Krell gear you might think what a great sounding system, when you heard it with the T+A you might think wow that sounds so much better. 

It are these kinds of testing data that proves that the quest for really amazing sound is a process of trying different components until the sound becomes as realistic as possible.

We are willing to bet that you may be one of the zillion audiophiles who doesn't believe in tweeks, or cabling or whatever that these are expensive foolish toys for the gulible with out the experience of actually trying some of these devices, then again you might not.

The Critical Mass Centerstage footers are transformational devices, that makes a system sound way better it it one of the best vibration isolation devices out there.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ 

So what have been the most cost effective speakers to extract their best out of? The better the speaker the higher the ceiling right. If that’s true then active speakers would be the safe bet for someone on a budget. Is the ls50 active better sounding than the passive model, I don’t think it’s wrong to expect a $35k pair of speakers to be exceptional driven by any competent front end.

No Steve just because you have expensive gear doesnt mean that the pairing will be correct.

Take our ancedote mentioned previously we tried amplifiers from Devialet, Electrocompaniet, Chord, Manley, CJ, Thrax,Krell, and T+A to pair with the Personas.

The cheapest amps were $8k the most expensive $25k they all sounded decent the Thrax was excellent however the T+A still sounded even better.

It is all about synergy.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

If an 8k amp and 25k speaker only sounds "decent".

Then one must conclude that then either the speaker isn't worth 25k, the amp isn't worth 8k... or both.

Any 33k pairing (and of course with expensive cables, power conditioning, and iso footers  on top)... that only sounds "decent"... is a joke.

No trudat it doesnt work that way.

Buy a Porsche put 82 octane gas into and put some cheppie tires on it does it drive like it was designed to drive?

The higher the quality the speaker the more resolving it is therefore you will hear more of what the amp is doing.

Why do you think people buy $20k-40k amps if they didnt sound better?

The combination of gear must combine to produce the sound you are looking for.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers

AT I was mimicking the point you made. That it can take years to get the best out of a pair of speakers. I was making my own point that I find it unacceptable that a high end pair of speakers is a black hole that needs years of tweaking to get the best out of! If a pair of speakers cost as much as the family car it should work out of the box. Anthem and Paradigm are the same company and if their 2 statement products don't whip the competition when paired I say they failed.

audiotroy's approach to audio is flawed. price has nothing to do with anything. im driving my jbl 4367 with electronics worth less than 1/20 of the cost and this is the best sound i'veever had.

I think most rational folks are with Trudat on this one.  If a speaker is so temperamental that they only sound good on a handful of products and you have to spend that much more on cable, cords and isolation devices, then something is not a great buy in audio IMHO.  Too many other great choices that will give awesome sound for much less and is easier to set up (cheaper).

That should be the standard!

D2girls you may be getting great sound however you may be missing the true potential of what your speakers are capable of with what you are currently using.

As per using Anthem Electronics the Str amp and preamp at $10k sounds very good with the Personas however even better gear brings out better performance.

As per taking years to get a system right how many people buy everything at once?

First you select speakers, then electronics, then digital etc please tell me if you are searching for the best in each class you  can evaluate many of the products so quickly.

A well set up pair of 9H challenges many $60-70k speakers.

So you can put together one terrific system for the price of some of the other leading contenders

Dave and Troy,
Audio Doctor NJ

You don’t have any idea what she’s using and have no idea what you’re talking about.

@audiotroy Getting back to some audio questions since I seem to agree with a lot of your tastes in sound. I would like to ask your opinion. I heard the TAD ME1 recently and you were correct, it is an great monitor speaker. It is unfortunate that they raised the price again to $15k.

If you had to choose between the TAD and the Persons 3F for a small acoustically treated room which would you take? I think the 3F would be clearer and maybe preferred by me but the TAD ME1 seems like a perfect physical fit over the 3F. I sit a bit off-axis so the TAD maybe better. It is tough for me to decide without having both in my room, which is not possible. Cannot go wrong with either but I would be interested in your more informed opinion.

OK just heard the Persona 3f at Axpona and nice midrange and top end BUT bass was muddy and not much definition this even with room correction. Yes it was in  hotel room but didn't do anything for me.

@audiotroy,

The persona series uses the same midrange and tweeter throughout if I am not mistaken. I've heard the line up several times.  Sonically, they are extremely similar from the 3's to the 9's.  I don't like them, but I understand that some out there who love every last detail, don't listen loud, and love analyzing every last detail... would be interested.  The first 15 minutes that I heard the 7's I thought they were clinical, but it was cool for a few minutes to hear everything in the recording.  Then I turned them up... and that was it for me.  So, let's just get that out of the way.  I listened to the 7's in a decent room, with a nice tube pre-amp at a good dealer.

As far as "amp matching" and system matching goes.. Most would agree that it's more critical in the midrange and tweeter to get the right amp.  Heck, with the 9's they have an internal amp and ARC (which I do think does a nice job eq'ing bass)... so you could argue that the amp is LESS critical with the 9's than the rest of the line-up that has to also drive the bass.  So, if it takes stellar electronics to "Bring out the best" of the 9's, than what does that say for the rest of the line-up that uses the same midrange and tweeter, but actually needs the amp to drive and control the woofers?

The whole "82 octane gas" doesn't really hold weight... I'm also going to go ahead and "guess" that when Paradigm voiced them, they did so with Anthem electronics... so for one to get what the MFG really intended the speaker to sound like, it should not take more than anthem electronics (and frankly it probably wasn't the new STR stuff when the Persona's were developed).  

Suppose I would be interested to know if paradigm used uber-expensive speaker stands or whatever flavor of iso-acoustic stand you push when they voiced them - if so, why not include them on the flagship model?  What's an extra 500 bucks at that point?

This isn't to say that amps/pre's/sources don't sound different, but the law of diminishing returns is steep in audio.  If someone wants to buy audio jewelry, cool, if someone wants cables that looks like a firehose, all good by me.  If you can sell it, good for you.

But to endlessly shill these products, and try to rationalize a speakers faults (and heck they really aren't faults, they are just how Paradigm voiced them) and say that you can mix and match with some high-brow knowledge of audio alchemy is just wrong and a big pile of crap.

But if someone doesn't like say the 3f... doubling the cost of the amp isn't going to do the trick.  That same amp is also going to sound relatively similar on the 5, 7, etc... it's the same midrange and driver.

I could care less what someone buys, in fact if anyone is looking for an absolute steal on a Persona center channel I know of a dealer blowing their stuff out and they have the center and stand left and are asking 3500 bucks for a demo unit.  

But bottom line, most of ones budget should be spent on speakers in almost every case.

I also agree... any 33k system better sound pretty damn good assuming a good part of the budget was spent on speakers.

Dep no they are not extremely similar across the line.

Like any manufacturer there will be a house sound, but it does change a bit as you go from model to model.

The 3F sounds similar but different to the 5F. We demoed the 3F to 5F comparison at another dealer and the 5F was a bit more mellow, had a bigger soundstage and of course had more bass.

The Persona 7 and 9 are the same speakers with the 7F not having the 9’s active bass.

The Persona 7 and 9 also use different bass drivers then the 3F and 5F.

Do they sound similar? Yes they do, but there are still audible differences between the models.

We demoed the 3F in the exact same room with the same gear, as our 9H and they sounded very different.

As per the Personas 9 needing less of an amp, because the bass is powered, again not true, as the 100 watt Manley tube amp, the Snappers are fantastic did not sound as good, as the CJ which were 275 monos, nor did the Devialet, nor did the Electrcompanient, nor did the Thrax gear the T+A gear was clearly the best sounding this was the consensus for both the Polymers MKX-S our previous reference loudspeakers and the Persona 9H.

As per your ridiculous assertion that the majority of your budget should be spent on speakers, look back at the car analogy.

If the heart of your car is the engine, the loudspeakers, and the rest of the car is your electronics and ancellory products, then this analogy should make it perfectly clear,

Take a 600 hp Ferrari engine and drop it into a Toyota Camery and lets take it for for a drive, did you just save your self $200,000.00 by creating this pairing?   Now ;ets suppose that the car’s transmission could actually handle the horse and power, do you think that the Camery has the braking power, suspension to enable this mess to actually drive?  The second you would try braking into a corner you would be dead as the suspension and brakes would be woefully inadequate for the job at hand and you would be headed to the guard rail and your untimely demise.

There is a reason why a high perfromance sports car drives like it does. A high perormance sports car is built around all the major subassemblies peforming their function optimally and in concert with each other. 

If you have a great engine, you need adaquate brakes to stop the car and high performance braking systems are expensive, so is the suspenson system which must hold everything together which also includes the entire frame and body which must also do its job. Hence a $200k sports car costs $200k because it is built with all of its parts working together and specified to provide a working envelope that the vehicle can perform optimally in. 

Substitute any cheapie parts and watch the car's ability to perform be compromised severely.

In our experience the electronics and source components, should cost 1 to 2 times the cost of the loudspeaker as a general rule. The addage garbage in garbage out is very true in audio. That is not to say that you can't buy a $5k amp and run a $10k set of speakers nicely that is also summising that you are not getting all you can get out of those $10k loudspeakers.

That is also not to say that you can't sometimes find value pairings that can sound surprisingly excellent but as a general rule the more exotic and expensive a loudspeaker is the higher the quality of what you need to drive it is going to be.

As per the other point that someone made about the Anthem electronics they are excellent for the price, but do you honestly think that the Anthem design team brought in tons of different competiting brands and tested and evaluated how they could build a better product, or did they forumulate some ideas, design a circuit based on some of their previous work and then build said product.

We have done these kinds of tests and the Anthem STR amp and preamp are great, but not in the same degree of great as the T+A gear or the Krell Illusion preamp and 300XD are.

So the moral of this story is if you are looking at this kind of product you must be prepared to use the right gear.

As per your doubling the electronics comment, we demoed the 3F at a client using a very good older Classe Intergrated amplifier a $5k amp along with a T+A dac so this would be a $10k package and the 3F didn’t sound a lot better than his older Dali Helicons.

Switched in a Naim Nac 272 preamp/dac and a Naim 250Dr and boom the 3F sprang to life, and sounded fantastic.

So again your experiences don’t mirror ours at all. The right set of electronics, cabling, and source components can make or break a set of speakers.

As per a dealer blowing out any product, so have we, certain products didn’’t work in our store or were not to our preference that doesn’t invalidate that product it just means it wasn’t working for us and our clientele, the same can be said of other dealers.

All I can tell you is when our Persona 9h are running with the T+A gear and a good source, the sound is among the most three dimensional and life like sounding systems we have ever heard and that includes some crazy expensive systems that are $200-400k.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers

Dep sorry to disagree, changing speakers is like changing an Apple for an Orange.

Changing electronics is like going to the supermarket and picking fruit that is a week old vs going to the orchard and picking it fresh.

Sure you could say that both are "apples" however the week old one has muted flavors, the texture isn’t crisp, and the colors of the apples are a bit dull.

Please compare a store bought apple pie to a fresh baked pie made with top quality ingredients and you will very quickly get my point.

Even the best chief can’t make a great pie with poor quality parts. The better the quality the ingredients the better the pie comes out, ergo, the better the electronics you use with the speakers the better sound you get out of the speakers it is really that simple. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona Dealers

Life is like a box of chocolates. Speakers are like cars and pies. Lol. 

Yes mofojo both are delicious.

It needs to be stressed more. I have a couple dealers I use, (kinda like the old days,sniff) don't anyone to know how bad the addiction is. One of the dealers is very clear about component matching and has no qualms about telling me when i'm in the wrong room! meaning even tho' I might be able to afford the speakers on display i'll never be able to make them sing. I think thats why i'm going active. wyhiwyg.

Finally heard the Persona 3F today (had heard the 5F before) and I really liked what I heard. I was debating whether to get the TAD ME1 monitor speaker or the Persona 3F for my small room. That decision is now made, Persona 3F. 

This demo today should have been awful because I did not sleep last night due to work.  However, listening to the 3F with the NAD M12/M22 stack was like listening to the TAD ME1 with uber Luxman gear. It was smooth and pleasant, not all all irritating. I did not like the 3F so much with the Mark Levinson 585. I had some irritation with that but the NAD was music to my ears. 

I think the Luxman m900u amp I heard with the TAD ME1 would be killer with the 3F. I am not sure if it is a good match with the M12 streamer that sounded so good today. 

Just need to find the right electronics with the Persona. I am sure I could do even better than the NAD but the enjoyment factor was already very high with the relatively low cost NAD. I could listen to this combo for hours.

This combo is magic with the Persona 3F. I heard the latest v2 iteration.

https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/552-nad-masters-series-m22-stereo-amplifier-and-m12-preamplifier-dac


My 2 choices: 

1) Spend $35K fo the Luxman m900u + Mola Mola Makua 
2) Spend $7K for the relatively close to Luxman sounding NAD combo. Easy choice for me.

Please try a good push-pull valve amp...you will be delighted!!

I listened a 5F with an Audio Research VSI75, and the sound was magic!

I heard the 3f with a McIntosh 252 integrated and the sound was really nice. I think tubes somewhere in the mix helps them and they don't  need a ton of power.

Yes true...that´s no secret for me. I run my Persona 9H with a SET 845 tube amp. Simply marvelous!!

I demoed a pair of Persona 5F’s with an integrated Macintosh amp today, here are my thoughts:

1. Very well controlled bass but not big.
2. Treble sounded musical with great transient response but their was no air (prob Macintosh related).
3. Could hear the crossover between midrange and tweeter.
4. Mid range was not that impressive and sounded recessed.
5. Coherency was average

djverne,

Honestly don’t know what you are hearing with that setup,

a couple of questions:

1: Were the speakers toed in?

2: What kind of cabling was being used?

3: What was the source?

There are a few really weird things in your description the midrange is anything but recessed, the top end tends to be hot, with a lot of air, so you had something rolling off a lot of detail.

You said the coherency  was average compared to what which speakers are in your mind coherent.

Love to know more about the place you heard them, your findings are very different than what most people find about the speakers.

Could it be that you perhaps didn't like the Mcintosh with the Paradigms, the sound you are describing could be very attributed to the Mcintoh amplifiers which are not very transparent but tend to sound warm and rolled off due to their design. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers

Heaven forbid anyone critique the Personas, right? Give it a rest.

Will post more tmrw but the following  other speakers I compare them too:
Fritz Carbon 7
Merlim TSM
Acsend NRt 
Dynaudio 110
Dynaudio 160
Modified Fritz 7 ( DIY modified speaker for nearfied— courtesy of Fritz selling me the parts)
Fritz Rev 5
Pmc TB2
 
will not post the seller cause there local and while the salesmen knew alltbabout TVs when I asked him about the Dac that the Macintosh amp used he really did t know what I was talking about. That’s ok but I really think 3 things stood out:
1. The Dac could have expanding the sound stage
2. The Macintosh integrated amp held back the top air and magnified some type of audible distortion that my ear caught right away in the crossover region (tweeter and midrange)
3. Midrange was just not that great. It sounded disjointed like old reviews of lesser popular pricey sound fabor models ( and usher).
4. Speaker was all control and low treble (berillluim tweeter)
5. Midrange just wasn’t great. Could put a system together with a full range Fostex, or Mark audio with sub and Low pow set and get same quality and 1/3 price in midrange.
6. Tweeter really was great, Beriluim..nice
7. Wide sound stage with great attack... just disjointed sound
8. Sorry to say and many other people won’t notice but after hearing a perfect transional crossover in speakers like the Merlin, Fritz (Series crossover) and the. My own full range diy (Mark audio Drivers) , the Personas crossover stood out like a Blond house wife with fake t****. Sorry no other way to sugar coat it.

djverne, interesesting, every speaker you mentioned as liking are Two way speakers, vs a three way loudspeaker.

Could it be that you don't like a three way loudspeaker?

Also almost every loudspeaker has a soft dome tweeter that you mentioned. 

You are also assuming that the speakers are set up correctly at this person's house?

The reality is that ANY high resolution loudspeaker will be totally dependent on the equipment your are driving it with, the quality of the playback gear, and the cabling, then factor in the room's acoustics as well as postioning and you are going to hear glorious sound or horrible sound.

Yes you might not like the speakers but your findings are hard to extrapolate as to what was the issue with the setup.

We would welcome you to hear the Pesona series setup with the right gear in the right room at our shop, they are marvelous loudspeakers when setup correctly, they are however, very picky about what you use with them, they will show you everything both good and bad with the setup. Unlike other high performance loudspeakers they have both a Beryillium tweeter and midrange and therefore are going to show you everything in that stream, if the dac was sup par you are going to instantly hear it. 

Also with a three way loudspeaker you are going to be much more aware of coherence issues with placement and sitting distances, if you are too close you might not find the drivers blending correctly, other issues can be toe in as well.

We are not saying that the Personas are for everyone, there are people that are not going to be in love with their remarkable clarity if comming from certain much warmer voiced loudspeakers if that is their predilection, but it certantly sounds that you did not hear them at anywhere near their best. 

It is like a panel guy who loves panels most direct radiating loudspeakers are going to "sound" wrong to that listener. 

Sometimes it is a case of listener bias and or preference while others are going to be down to setup.

You mention a whole host of speakers you like however, you did not compare a single one in the same enviornment to the Paradigms, so your logic and testing methodology is not exactly the same.

You may want to relisten to the speakers at a Pardigm dealer and you might think differently about them or not. 

When we judge loudspeakers, amplifiers, or dacs, we don't just use one sampling before we get a picture of the line, we often will hear said product at multiple shows before we get a real impression or better yet at our shop and testing under known circumstances.

Good luck.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers

I’ve visited Paradigm dealers where 75% of the salespeople will candidly admit that they prefer a competitor to the Persona line at similar cost for their home systems, and no these aren’t all people who don’t appreciate clarity or who lean towards warm sounding speakers because in some cases the preferred competitor also uses beryllium.

Horses for courses. Everybody likes what they like and it’s all subjective anyway.

I love the sound of Spendor, but no doubt there are some who would say Spendors sound terrible, and I wouldn’t tell them they’re wrong or that they must have heard Spendor in a bad setup. I’d realize that they just prefer a different sound than I do.

Now if if they say any candy bar other than Mounds is best, then we’ll have to take it outside ... : )

i heard a not cheap Klipsch setup today playing on a five figure Esoteric amp at a dealer and I swear it was one of the worst sounding speakers I’d ever heard in the cost range, but there was another customer there just eating it up and I could tell that to him it was sonic perfection.