I'm beginning to poke around and gather opinions and information about a "super speaker" to replace my aging Thiel 2.4s. I like the idea of bass dsp room correction and I am a bit of a point source type imaging nut (thus the Thiels). So among other choices I've been looking at the Paradigm Persona series specifically the powered 9H with room correction for the bass. However I'm skeptical of the "lenses" i.e. pierced metal covers on the midrange and tweeter specifically because of Paradigm's claim that such screens "screen out" "out of phase" musical information. The technology in the design seems superlative but I just can't get past the claim re out of phase information and the midrange and tweeter covers. What could possibly be the science behind this claim? It just seems like its putting a halloween moustache on the mona lisa given the fact that the company is generally a technology driven company.
Benzeman, great to hear, it is nice to have pro Persona guys on these posts rather than the naysayers who have never heard a set of the Paradigm's setup correctly with the right gear.
As we keep on saying, you have to inject some warmth into the system to get the speakers to sound more enjoyable, they are very clean loudspeakers so a bit of euphonic coloration somewhere in the chain makes them work really well.
Hence our prefered electronics T+A, Krell, Naim all tend to sound rich, the Aqua Digital is rich, and the Light Harmonic Davinci is lush but with good detail.
When paired with the right gear the little 3F sound more like a $20k set of speakers then a $10k one, put some isoacoustics footers on em and watch em fly!
Dave, you honestly need to stop with saying folks aren't listening to these in systems not set up properly etc... That's just a false statement. I have heard these in numerous systems with excellent electronics etc... and that includes YOUR house/store! They are a bright speaker, but as I've said, many love that.
There's plenty of room for all, but please stop it already. They are not easy to match up at all. Reality and not a knock on them.
ctsooner, I agree with your post. I’ve listened to Paradigm 7Fs and didn’t care for them, but I can understand why some may love them. I just think it’s silly for Dave to keep repeating how Paradigm’s benefit from the "right" components being connected to them. All speakers benefit from the "right" components being connected to them.
(this is part of a larger post from another thread, but relevant to Paradigm 3F)
I found the resolution and soundstage
of the Paradigms to be extraordinary. You can hear the wood of the solo
viola, and the movement of cymbals when struck, the voices and
locations of individual string instruments (even low strings) in
ensemble, clear as a bell. I don't think it's a speaker for big bass,
but that's not a huge priority for me. I like the impression of the
ensemble or orchestra laid out in front of me, life-size as possible.
My only reservations were a)
I don't find them terribly attractive visually, and more importantly, b)possible longer-term listening fatigue.
Doubting my aging ears, I looked up test bench measurements last
night. Multiple measured (on-axis) frequency responses of both the 3F
(and
5F) are certainly consistent with what I heard, showing a substantial
bump
from 5-12khz:
I listened to them toed in a bit, and if you look around you'll read a bunch
of reviewers/users are setting them up facing straight ahead to avoid an
overly bright presentation. Apart
from the brightness, I think the Paradigms are *very* stiff competition
for the much more expensive Wilson Sabrina.
You are correct. Troy and Dave (no shocker) think they are one of approximately 5-6 dealers in the country that know how to set-up a speaker and experiment with electronics.
Call them what you will, bright, detailed, accurate etc. That's what they are. NO one said they were bad speakers. In fact, I'm sure they measure quite well. Accurate, uncolored etc.
They are fast, they are very detailed. If you like that, they are a heck of a speaker to audition.
But the bottom line is they are very much on the bright/accurate/fast/detailed end of the spectrum.
Though, I'm sure some isoacoustics footers, and uber expensive cables will warm them right up. ;-)
So ahofer heard the Personas at Audio Doctor and still found them bright. Apparently, there are no dealers in the country that can tame the brightness. Maybe Audiotroy can chime in here and blame his hearing for the perceived brightness. When I have heard the Personas, they have sounded bright to me as well.
When I heard the 5F with a Lyngdorf 2170 it sounded rather bad. I really wanted to like the Lyngdorf and it was more the reason I went to that demo. I excluded the amp section of the Lyngdorf by going preamp out to a Simaudio 860A amp. We had to do some sound degrading RCA to XLR conversions but nevertheless the sound was very agreeable to me and that is the reason for me to purchase the Persona 3F. I will not get the Simaudio amp I demoed but something lower priced with similar sound characteristics.
I have heard a lot of speakers, being close to Los Angeles, makes this easy. So it is not like I do not know what is out there. Different strokes.
Csmgolf, the setup did not sound bright at all, compared to other speakers the Persona's had far greater clarity then the Kef R series which we also demoed.
Yes it is true these are not laid back speakers they are however remarkably transparent, fast and accurate and so if you prefer a warmer more recessed sound then this kind of accuracy will not be for you.
We also demoed the 3F with the more expensive Naim NAC 272 dac and preamp and a 250dr, and then we added the XPS 2 power supply and the system started to sound really magnificent.
In retrospect the demo was a bit flawed on the higher end Naim as we could not use Roon directly into the NAC 272 and had to use another streamer with an spdif cable to play the test files which were storred on a usb thumb drive.
Also there is a way to change the sound quality radically on the Naim Uniti products if you are using Naim which is to ouput your PCM files as DSD which the Uniti can handle and boom now you have the elevated midrange and softer top end of DSD decoding we didn't do that either.
Normally our demos last for 2-3 hours this demo was a bit brief so we didn't even scratch the surface of what we can do and how we can tune the speakers to match someone's taste.
There is also a huge range of gear to choose from in our shop, we started with the Naim Uniti for one reason which we Mr. Hofer also heard the Wilson Sabrinas on the same amplifier.
We never went to the Krell K300i which is a very warm integrated nor did we listen to the Antem STR amp/preamp combo which also sounds really outstanding on the Anthem.
You are welcome to visit our shop and see for yourself
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Paradigm Persona, Krell, Naim, Anthem dealers
I listened to them toed in a bit, and if you look around you'll read a bunch of reviewers/users are setting them up facing straight ahead to avoid an overly bright presentation. Apart from the brightness, I think the Paradigms are *very* stiff competition for the much more expensive Wilson Sabrina.
Actually ahofer said in this post on this thread that they sounded bright in your shop. Of course you would say they didn't sound bright. He said they did. Plus, bright is bright and is not accurate. The Stereophile measurements show it, the measurements ahofer linked show it, and my experiences listening to it match what the measurements show. If you like that, great but don't say that it is accurate.
Translation McIntosh is slightly veiled, rounded and warm (I had an all Mac system for years) and you need that to mitigate the brightness and harshness in the Paradigms.
Actually Cmsgolf, bright can be very accurate, if your recording for example was from, Deustshe Graphaphon, and made in the mid 80's or a Telarc, digital recording in the mid 80's tended to sound bright due to the digital encoders and mixing consoles at the time, and they sound bright on the playback that is accurate as those are the sound of those recordings.
You also failed to understand that even if the gentleman found them "bright" we can tune that out by something as simple as a playback change in Roon.
We did not have the time to really go into and explore changes that can be made by playing with different gear and software changes which affect playback.
The demo was a bit rushed and we started with a different set of speakers before switching to the Personas and then we swtiched electronics, we encouraged Mr. Hofer to come back for a much greater extended session where we can play a wider variety of tracks on different gear.
And as hell is freezing over, we are agreeing with grgr4blu on something and he is acutally being nice, that Mcintosh tends to sound warm and veiled a bit, and that Mcintosh or similarly voiced electronics, actually Naim sounds a bit like that in a good way are the keys to making the Personas sound good.
Given the same electronics, the Persona will typically sound brighter than most other speakers.
So yes, electronics matter, but the bottom line is most people will find the Persona's bright given a head to head with 95% of other speakers.
Even your system matching genius, uber cables, stands, and decoupling isoacoustic magic and power conditioning.... won't change that. Given a head to head with the same electronics - they are bright to most people.
I don't really think anyone has said they are bad speakers.
It is rather amusing to see people so animated about disparaging the Persona line. We are just talking about audio speakers here right?
Whatever the case, for the folks who want to help others from making the mistake of buying a Persona and then having their hearing diminished. How about stating what would be a better choice? Maybe describe what you own so people can calibrated what your ears are happy with.
I mean stating this is, "bad, bad, bad", only can carry a discussion (maybe an argument) so far. How about some good options from some of you golden ears.
Trudat, your point is quite erronuous. We sell Kef, Dali, Legacy, Cabasse, ATC, Elac, and Retheym these are all great loudspeakers each has a different personality.
There are classes of loudspeakers which are more accurate and more detailed and there are those that are warmer and more recessed in the treble.
Your presumption is that you just change loudspeakers, no you change whatever you need to with any loudspeakers to bring out the results you are trying to accheive.
It all comes down to setup if you have a speaker which the listener perceives as a brighter sound and they love the clarity but find it is too much then you alter the cabling, electronics, digital, processing etc to tune the speaker so the clarity remains but the top end is a bit wamer, hence we tend to recommend the Naim, Krell, T+A, or Anthem electronics with the Paradigms.
The corrollary is also true if you have a wamer loudspeaker, Dali, Legacy they tend to pair very well with brighter electronics: Musical Fidelity, Nad M32, Anthem STR.
Mentioned that Mr. Hoffer did not leave us with a lot of time to explore how we can tune the Personas, also we did not evaluate a lot of different recordings mostly the ones on his thumb drive. Given a bit more time even a simple software settinng in Roon can totally add more wamth to the sound of the Personas it is really that simple.
Yes there will be people who will not like that much clarity, if you prefer the vocing of a Harbeth or a Vandersteen or any other loudspeaker which tends to have a softer presentation you most likely will not like the Persona.
Mr. Hofer’s comment that a $10k Persona was very close compeition to a $17k set of Wilsons does show that the 3F are an outstanding value, you can do a lot of tuning with $7k now can’t you?
I heard the 7f being driven by STR separates last weekend , This is a long thread so I might be repeating myself. Detailed and fast with a top end that I could compare to the focal electra 1028be meaning fed a good recording they really moved me and poor recordings became 2 dimensional and boring. If I didn't know better I would have taken advantage of the offer the dealer made me right then. The Persona measures a bit like a smiley face but I never got the impression the mids were recessed. I also didn't find them bright as much as unforgiving of poor recordings. Bass was as tight and fast as the 3f but much deeper and the sound stage and images within were amazing. I'm lucky that I have dealers that will let me home demo a product i'm interested in in fact they demand it! How's that for policy.
There is a reason that many loudspeakers will sell and all sound so different. There is a lot of disinformation out there about many lines and some comes from boards. Folks all hear differently and all too often dealers will discuss others speakers and claim they have heard, them, but really haven't heard the new models etc... I've even heard about a specific dealer talking to another dealer about a speaker he carries. Come to find out the dealer who claims he has heard this line was talking about the 8k speaker and thinking it was the 60k speaker.
This is a major problem in high end audio. Another problem to ME, is that system matching IS so important. It's why you can't get a component of the month or year and put that with another and hope to have great sound. I own Vandy's as all know. In order for them to sound their best, they need a zero feedback amp. Not difficult to find anymore and not difficult to set up.
To ME, if you have to go nuts tuning any speaker, then why buy it? Why not just get a speaker that sounds great to you with a bunch of different amps. If a speaker is good, it will show the difference in anything in your chain. It's not a difficult thing. This is how we get into folks having to justify their sale or purchase. As I've always said, if you love them, that's awesome. Not saying that in a gratuitous way either. That's from the heart man as it's all about the music and enjoyment.
I must have gobs of micro and macro detail. I want to hear it all, but I need to listen for hours on end and not just for an hour. I usually don't need more than a half hour with a speaker to know it's not my cup of tea, but I do need much more time to know if it is THE cup of tea (hope that makes sense).
It's all good, but some are calling some speakers softer, but that shows they either havent' heard that speaker, or that they are so different than folks who have. Just sayin.......
I have heard the Vandersteen about 5 times. The $7K CT version and the most expensive one. I think every time I heard them, except once (most recently), Richard Vandersteen was in the same room. I thought I would like them more because I love Thiel, especially the CS3.7. However, the Vandersteen did not pull my strings to buy them. Now these demos were all under an hour and not using my demo tracks so maybe that had some bearing.
When I heard the following speakers under similar demo situations (not my demo tracks) I thought I could easily live with any of them. I did not have the room then so I did not buy them.
Thiel CS3.7 (still wish I bought had this one) KEF Blade (I will buy this soon now that I have room) KEF Ref 1 KEF Ref 5 Vivid Kaya 90 Vivid Giya G1 Magico A3 Magico S3MK11 Paradigm Persona 5F Wilson Alexa 1 Magnapan (for got the model #)
Revel Salon 1 (did buy this one long ago after a demo since I had space)
Maybe my hearing is geared towards a certain sound that is in the Persona camp. I have actually heard a ton more speakers, some mentioned on this thread, but no need to mention them since they did not move me.
Given the same Amp, a Persona will sound brighter, than a Dali (for instance) with the same amp.
Thats my entire point, and the one most here have made. It’s a bright speaker, not a bad speaker.
Of course amps, pre amps, tubes etc can affect it. But the speakers character will always be prevalent in the system. Can you tweak the system with sources and room treatment and eq, of course.
Generally speakers are the most expensive component in a system and the hardest to change. So yes, for most people getting the speaker right matters most.
Thats the point. I don’t think anyone here has said they are bad speakers.
The 7F shares almost no resemblance to the 1028be. Not sure where you get that. Also, there is no enhanced bass in the 7F. They have perhaps the tightest bass I have ever heard. So to a lot of people that would likely be heard as “lean” in the bass due to years of hearing boomy speakers and hearing lots of the room or speaker enclosure. Sounds like you’re letting what you read influence your impressions. I just saw you raving about them in another thread yet now you’re changing your tune based on what others are saying.
It’s amazing how much “audiophiles” are psychologically influenced and don’t even realize it.
What recordings did you hear through the 7F that made it sound two dimensional and boring? If the 7F is capable of providing a huge deep and wide holographic stage on good recordings, that means they can extract the same when available from other recordings. If the mentioned “bad” recordings don’t have the soundstage, there’s no way they’d suddenly have anything better on another pair of speakers. The speakers don’t pick and choose when they want to have space in the soundstage. That goes against logic, physics, and science completely.
Santa, that's my point. We all like different things in a speaker. Some overlook hot and or bright thinking they are highly detailed and if they 'stage' great or have another positive thing, they love them...until they grow tired and get the next most talked about speaker (or amp or DAC).
Bottom line is that it's all good. I always caution friends who are getting into higher end audio, to beware. Dealers know what tracks they can play on a system to make it sound 'best'. They will always stay away from tracks that won't sound good due to the compromises that said designers have to make. Kind of like going to the store to buy a new top end TV, but they are all turned to their brightest setting where they will look their best for a half hour or so. Good luck watching at that setting all day long, lol......
Unfortunately that makes zero sense. The brightest tv at Best Buy only looks good if you’re ignorant and know very little about picture quality.
Dealers likely play “only good music” or only their music because I’m sure many customers come in with some hot garbage that would sound bad on any speaker. I don’t know of any dealer that wants to “trick” the customer, but when someone goes into a store and says “hey do you have this *insert artist here* album?” The dealer may play some garbage remaster on Tidal which sounds like trash compared to the CD master the guy has at home. That’s the kind of stuff I’d think they’re worried about, if they really are trying to exclusively play their stuff.
In my most recent speaker auditions the dealers were encouraging me to play anything from TIDAL. They were rather happy to hear me say, wow that recording sounds real bad or that recording sounded great. This was on the speakers I had come to audition, the Magico A3 and Persona 5F. Point is these guys were rather cool about demoing the speakers.
One example was the Clash "From Here to Eternity: Live" disc. I had been playing it on my car while driving to the demo and I rather enjoyed it (I love this disc in the car). When I played it on the Magico A3 it sounded awful. The dealer was rather happy to see that I could hear the bad sound via the speakers he was trying to sell me.
contuzzi, it really sounds like you have all of us and dealers figured out. Why are you hanging out with us, after all...…"It’s amazing how much “audiophiles” are psychologically influenced and don’t even realize it." and..."The brightest tv at Best Buy only looks good if you’re ignorant and know very little about picture quality." Are you here to save us from ourselves, if that's it we kind of feel we are already doing ok and don't need saving so you can feel free to go post on the next audio board knowing we are ok now.
It's so funny to read comments from people who regularly trash other components, get so upset that some don't prefer Paradigm Personas. There are no absolutes in audio, only preferences!
1. Music The music I brought was part high-res and part Redbook CD rips (to FLAC), all things that I think sound good on all my own systems. More importantly, I know how they sound on other systems that I own or am auditioning. Finally, it’s all my kind of music. I think this is most of it.
Brahms Trios - Vogt/Tetszlaff DSD
Joey Alexander, Freedom Dance (HD flac)
Ravel quartet- Sequoia String Quartet (redbook),
Herbie Hancock - River (redbook)
Bantock Celtic Symphonies (redbook - this piece has weird instrumentation, which makes for a fun listening test)
Cool - Bill Charlap Trio (redbook)
Brahms Viola Sonatas - Kim Kashkashian/Robert Levin ECM (redbook)
Mahler songs of a Wayfarer - Jesus Schmidt & Cincinnati Symphony (Telarc, redbook)
Mendelssohn String Quartets - Artemis Quartet (HD FLAC)
Beethoven Symphonies - Karajan/Berlin (1963), DG high-res remastering (HD FLAC)
I don’t think they are particularly bright recordings as a group. All but the Charlap and Hancock recordings have great live-recorded information that allows you to hear instrument location. As we all know, location cues tend to be higher in frequency.
2. Sound impressions My home system resided for 25 years in a room with a Steinway baby grand and frequent viola, cello, and quartet playing. I know well what those things sound like directly in front of me. I also used to do jazz gigs in my early twenties and attended Berklee College of Music. I also think I know what a big band and small ensemble sound like. Beyond that, I make no ’golden ear’ claims.
On the speakers, the word "bright" can mean different things to different people, and my ears are only a reference for my own wallet. Frankly, I struggle with the terminology people use for speakers. "Imaging" I understand, but when people start talking about "rhythm" the musician in me wants to scream BS. So we can always disagree on one of these loose adjectives.
However, I think the three separate bench tests available on line factually establish that the Paradigms would *all else equal* have a treble boost up to 5db, +/- 15 degrees to head on, compared to many other speakers. It very neatly explains what I heard, and with three separate tests confirming this sizable bump, I accept this as factual, or as close as we are going to get.
Of course, "all else" is almost never equal, which, like a high-spirited romantic partner, is both frustrating and enchanting.
I reiterate my gratitude to Dave for letting me audition. It may take more time, but I have a day job that pays for my habit! And it may be that I need an in-home audition of some things.
Dear Mr. Hofer you were a pleasure to have at the shop, and demo the Kef's and the Paradigms for you.
Love to have you come back for a more extended demo where we can show you some ways of warming up the Personas with Roon and you should also listen to the new Krell K300i it is an awesome amp with the Personas. The Krell is really warm and full bodied so you might appreciate what that combo brings to the table.
Just by making a couple of changes we can add a bit more warmth to the Personas which just might make them rich enough for you.
@ahofer Hope you post on what you end up getting. I always like to know what systems musicians listen with. I think I have great hearing but that does not mean I know what a musical instrument should REALLY sound like. Sounds like you would know this better.
@ahofer I hope you end up buying something you love and can live with for the long term. I would be wary buying something that you find a fundamental flaw with, no matter how much someone may want to sell them to you. No amount of cabling, footers, or equipment will take away a 5 db bump in frequency response. Warmth is in the lower midrange, not in the treble. That is just trying to draw attention to something else, not fixing the problem. Trust your ears, not someone else’s, and make the right choice for you.
Cmsgolf, really don’t know why you have this evangelical hatred of the Persoanas.
We are not so powerful as to make Mr. Hofer or anyone purchase anything from us that they don’t like, sorry not going to happen.
The reality is that many people here have heard the 3F really like them. Yes it is irksome that they do not measure flat, it is possible that the Persona’s engineers felt that many listeners rooms would be over damped and this would compensate the other thing is that with Anthem Room correction a flat response can be assured in the room.
Even without room corection we have found that the speakers are not overally bright in real rooms. We have several clients with the 3F in real apartments and homes and so far all of our clients have been absolutely thrilled with their 3Fs..
Also having studied meansurements on many other highly rated speakers many of them are highly rolled of in the top end, so you can have it both ways you can have a dip in treble or a peak either way it isn’t flat,
All loudspeakers have a sound and yes Cmgolf with the right tweeks we can add warmth to a set of speakers, footers, power cabling, software processing can totally change the sound of a loudspeaker.
Do you wonder why Vandersteen’s are often paired with Ayre? Could it be that Vandys tend to sound overally warm and Ayre is a bit on the neutral to slightly tipped side of neutral?
Mr. Hoffer can purchase whatever he likes but in fairness a quick demo of the Personas does not allow us the time to play with the variables that can change the way they sound in ways that can add additional warmth and alter their tonal balance.
Loudspeakers are like any other decision they all have their particular sound and all loudspeakers can be tuned to match a listeners perferences.
I first heard the 5Fs in a local store but bought the 3Fs because they were in my budget at the time, 2 years ago. I'm now trading them in for the 9Hs and should have them in a couple weeks.
I auditioned several speakers named in this thread before hearing the Personas. I wouldn't consider these speakers bright by comparison. They are incredibly accurate, fast and dimensional.
The personas are the only box speaker i have heard that have a treble that comes close to electrostatic speakers. Hopefully some day i will find a used pair to purchase. I have only heard the least expensive model at rmaf a couple years ago. They were powered by the anthem separates. Didn't sound bright to these ears .
The more I listen to different setups with my 3f's the more I realize that it really is about the recording. I have changed footers and cables and other sources (which do have a big effect) but the most important (given a speakers characteristics) seem to be the recording. Sometimes they do sound bright and harsh and then sometimes I am completely surprised the next time I crank them up..... strange.
BTW.... @audiotroy What do I have to do to get the Iso Acoustic Gaia feet on the large base of the 3f's? Is there some sort of adaptor for the Paradigm speakers? The large threaded feet don't fit anything.
That’s a cop out. The speaker is bright. Demoing Paradigm Persona 3F and Focal Kanta No. 2, at different shops, with the same recordings, they both sound bright/harsh and uninvolving, despite the great resolution. The Paradigms were on my amp (Schiit Ragnarok). The Focals were on both McIntosh and Naim electronics (tried them two different days).
Both speakers made good recordings sound bright/OK. They both made average recordings sound horrible, and bad recordings make me want to gouge my ears out. Unfortunately, most good music isn’t recorded super well. Both speakers were also unlistenable at higher or even moderate volumes. 80 dB on my Decibel iPhone app was painful and down went the volume again.
Contrast that with the Revel F228be at the same dealer as the Focal, and they were at least listenable. None of the above speakers conveyed the emotion of the music.
Contrasting all of those with Aerial Acoustics 6T, it was no contest. Much more bass (despite the smaller bass woofer size). Made great recordings sound awesome and poor recordings sound great. You could crank them up without wincing. I was listening at 85 dB (measured with my same app mentioned above) without even realizing it. And most of all, the Aerials conveyed the emotion of the music and brought tears to my eyes. On the same songs I had been demoing with all speakers and was very sick of at the time.
One should not HAVE to tweak footers, cables and electronics in order to make a speaker listenable. One should be rewarded with additional marginal gains if they do so. The Paradigm fall in the former camp. They are inherently flawed, and folks should know that going in.
@rlovendale Ever consider that your hearing and tastes maybe different from people who like the Persona or Kanta? Most people tend to buy what they like.
There are quite a few owners of Persona's chiming in saying how much they like the speaker. So you are basically saying to these folks that they are rather messed up, either mentally or hearing wise, to be buying the Persona.
@yyzsantabarbara Yes. Nothing I said above is inconsistent with that statement, which I agree with.
All I’m saying is that one may subjectively like or even love the speaker or want to buy it to fill their need to tune and tweak, but it still measures objectively bright (see Stereophile measurements for one) and sounds subjectively bright (as confirmed by a multitude of Audiogon users) as well. That brightness is not recording-specific, but rather applies to all recordings because it is inherent in the speaker. It is a disservice to those that haven’t heard the speaker to imply otherwise.
Now that’s not my personal taste, hence I also expressed my opinions above.
I think it is actually a disservice to A'Gon readers to have posts telling people who have not heard the Persona that it is bright and does not sound good.
I almost bought into that line and had ALMOST eliminated the Persona 3F from consideration for my office system (small room). They only reason I heard it was because of a fluke. I was intending to audition the Lyngdorf 2170, that gets rave reviews here on A'gon. The dealership had the Persona and Sonus Faber. I unenthusiastic-ally chose the Persona to pair with the Lyngdorf demo because I knew the Sonus Faber sound is not to my tastes.
I have mentioned more about the audition previously but the end result is that the Lyngdorf was out and the Personsa 3F was in my top 3 for consideration. The was after using a SimAudio 860A amp to power them via the Lyngdorf preamp section. Dealer actually said it was the best he had heard the Persona 5F. He normally demos with MAC gear.
Moral of the story FOR ME, don't take the words written here verbatim, even if it is written as a benevolent audio SERVICE. Go out and listen for yourself.
I do wonder how much a tipped up treble highlights the differences in recordings? I compared the 7f to the 1028be in their mutual ability to weed out the crappy recordings, nothing more. contuzzi is passionate about hifi i'll give him that. Intensity on the net can so often create assumptions that drag us off topic, but, wtf what else we got to do. I went in to borrow the Kanta 3's and ended spending a couple hours with the 7f. I knew right then, I think we all did that the Kanta wasn't going to cut it after that demo. I still like the Kanta 3, so ya'll don't start hating on focal. I'm trying to get flat bass down to 40 hz in my room and nothing has delivered! so the 1 arrangement I hadn't yet tried was speakers ported from front and back, but they
didn't
work either. I think I already said that if I trusted I could get the 7f to sound in my room like they did in the demo I would vote with my money and buy them, but I know they won't.
If you were referring to me, I should clarify that I do not own any of the speakers I listed above. Those were just some demoed over a couple weeks. I mentioned the ones above because they all use beryllium, and I wonder if that is one of the reasons why impressions were pretty consistent for me across Paradigm Persona 3F and Focal Kanta. In addition to the above, I demoed Spendor D7, KEF LS50 / R11, Klipsch Forte III, and Focal Aria 948.
I was very interested in the Personas before I actually heard them. But they turned out to be one of my least favorite.
You name a speaker , any speaker and I can pick it apart and tell you why I do not care for it . If I like the speaker as I do the Persona , I can find no faults . One mans treasure is another mans trash . Going on a forum that is discussing a speaker I don't like is a waste of time and a disservice to that company products .
Cmsgolf, really don’t know why you have this evangelical hatred of the Persoanas.
Audiotroy, when did I ever say that I hate the Personas? Please find it for me. I think they are a very good speaker, that is unfortunately too tipped up in the top end for me. A tipped up top end in ANY speaker is a deal breaker for me, been there and done that. At first it sounds like amazing detail and speed, but ends up in a pair of speakers sitting silent in my room because I don't want to listen. It creates listening fatigue that no tweak will fix. It may not show up in a short, controlled audition, but it will show up after a period of ownership. There are certain frequencies in the midrange and if a pair of speakers has a peak there, I don't need to hear any more. They will be checked off the list. Apparently, you and ahofer have hearing that is tuned in to different things. He thought they were bright in your shop, you said that they were absolutely not bright. In fact, two people in this thread have said the same thing about auditions in your shop. Apparently more than one person hears them differently than you, even in your shop. When people are tuned in to a certain characteristic of a system, they will always be able to tell it on any system they listen to. Whether that characteristic is bass impact, imaging, sound staging, detail, speed, brightness, etc. does not matter. Many times, one of those factors may be the most important factor to them. When you do a parlor trick to draw attention away from the inherent problem, you are not in it for the customer. Rather you are trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. Or even worse, you are trying to create a stream of revenue for the next great tweak to sell that you say will solve a problem that none of those tweaks can actually fix. Again, to ahofer, buy what your ears like and can live with over the long term. If you find that to be the Personas, great. But don't get buffaloed into it.
Agreed. Tried saying the same thing. Amazing how defensive owners of a speaker feel. If you like it, good on ya.
As for Dave and Troy... well... you may have learned by now they are never wrong and can magically tune any speaker with all sorts of magic only they understand.
Or, you know, one can buy the speaker they really audition and like, and then maybe make subtle changes (which is all that in most cases is really possible) once they have them home.
I've owned really bright speakers, tried chasing with amps, sources etc. No thanks. Doesn't mean they are bad, in all cases someone else bought them.
I had some klipsch palladiums, they are really quite good - but too lean for me and too bright.
Drummer bought them from me, always uses a sub and LOVED CYMBALS. For him, they were awesome.
Ok. Let’s all agree that the Personas are on the bright side . Numerous test show the bump in the upper registers. Easily fixable I knew my amps and music server/dac where on the warmer side . Tube pre. Good to go. I just swapped out the Audience Au 24sx that where on the lean side with a cable with a little more meat I previously had Magico S3 that where lifeless. Much easier to tame a little hotter speaker and still enjoy all the good things it brings than to try to liven up a boring speaker
Yea, I was commenting on your finishing with aeriel 6 being all that. If a speakers bright but clean, not sibilant or spitty and the repercussion is added detail and imaging i'll put some treatments on the wall at the first reflection point and enjoy the show, but if it isn't clean the deals off. I found the personas tweeter to be clean and extended.
What I find so facinating is the villification of the Personas from certain posters here, because they have a bump in the high end vs the scores of other high end loudspeakers which have a pronounced dip in the top end.
So therefore a speaker which is bright is bad but a loudspeaker that has a rolled off top end is not villified or pronunced being bad for sounding dull?
Lets remember that a high hat or cymbol crashes, if you reproduce those instruments without having the realisim of what those instruments actually sound like and make them sound unnaturally smooth is that better reproduction?
In terms of what benzman and a few others have said, you can add asorpative material, or use components which are warmer to tone down a speaker which is perceived as bright but how can you add detail to a speaker which is rolled off?
The sound of the Personas when setup correctly is pretty special are they for everyone don't think so, but when played with the right gear they sound more like a $20k speaker for the $10k 3F and the $35k 9H can easily compete with a $58k pair of Wilsons.
We would also question Rivondale's testing methodology who says that is Schitt amplifier is good enough to drive the Personas, what cables were used, what source? There is so much more to setting up a world class sound system then arbittarily trying amp A with speaker B, maybe with his Schitt amplifier a dac or source change might have been required.
We would welcome anyone in the area to visit our shop and hear our setups with the Personas.
I agree with audiotroy. There are negative posters whos reference are vandersteen. Of course they will think the paradigms are bright if they use vandersteen. Night and day difference when comparing these two speakers. The vandersteens sound like a blanket is covering the tweeters
"Going on a forum that is discussing a speaker I don't like is a waste of time and a disservice to that company products .", but then you post, "The vandersteens sound like a blanket is covering the tweeters." I don't own Vandersteens, but this is the hypocrisy that I'm talking about. Everyone has preferences and it's as simple as that. The Personaa are good speakers, but there are a lot of good speakers.
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