Paradigm Persona series

If moderators are going to delete posts, it would be helpful to know why. 

Having a post deleted with regards to this vendor is a badge of honor. 

Cmsgolf your loss, we have plenty of clients who love us.

As per another dealer, lets face the reality, many of the stores that sell high end loudspeakers have poor setups either they don’t have a good sound room or they lack the kinds of gear that would be used with this level of loudspeaker for whatever reason they are not investing in the rest of the gear to really demonstrate these speakers correctly up to their full potential.

How do we know, we visit other dealers a lot of them, we heard the Personas in a two Massachusettes dealers, one was a decent high end shop who was playing on his best amp at the time which was a $3k Musical Fidelity integrated with $500 worth of cabling, this dealer sells mostly midfi systems.

The other dealer is a major on line dealer who has one cramped high end sound room with the speakers all crammed in the back wall of a way too small room their setup was a $2k Parasound amplifier on a NAD Masters preamp dac a $4k preamp, not exactly what you would expect fronting $35k loudspeakers.

There are some really good Paradigm dealers and many not so good ones we have seen the same issues with B&W, and KEF dealerships as well, they postion there products with dealers that can move a lot of product not necessarily the ones that have the commitment to really showcasing expensive loudspeakers correctly.

Again we went to this dealers website the setup was not up to snuff for a $35k loudspeaker, that is not our fault that is the dealers.

Unless their current setup is very different from their website photos you have the 9H and the 5F parked right aside each other in a room with a large cabinet in the middle, no room treatment is visible.

Were they using power conditoning, what was the quality of their cables? etc.

We play the Personas with all the right kinds of gear and setup methodology, we do not have another set of speakers right next to the Pesonas, we do have a single narrow audio rack it is from Critical Mass so it is designed to absorb energy from the components and it is open on all surfaces, we use high end cabling, we use high end power conditioning, we use very high end electronics which are even better than the Anthem electronics, from Krell, and T+A, Electrcompaniet, Conrad Johnson, we use suitable high end digital a Baetis reference server with an Aqua Hifi dac or a Lumin streamer. etc.

Our open invitation has been taken up by people from Maryland as well as a gentleman from the Midwest who wanted to auditon the Kef Blades, Kef Rerence 5s, the Personas and the Legacys.

If the OP was to visit us and visit all the New York dealers he could in one trip could hear almost every major electronics and speaker manufacuturers in a weekend that is what being in a major metropolitian area gets you.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Cmsgold you miss our points entirely,  It is not about patting our selves on the back it is stating a simple reality.

We visit a lot of dealers all over the country and there are good dealers with matching equipment, to showcase expensive loudspeakers and there are ones that do not. 

That is also not to say that everyone has dialed in systems that are expensive some of these systems don't sound that great while other ones do. 

As per issues with us we get numerous calls a week with people who report that are posts are helpful and illuminating. 

In another thread about servers we stated a simple fact we sell FIVE different brands of servers, do you not think that gives us a broader perspective than a dealer who only sells one brand of servers?

We are always testing new brands of gear and new models to better serve our clients.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

+1 csmgolf

I’ve been reading this thread for a while, and as an audiophile consumer... here’s my 2-cents.

I’ve never met or spoken with audiotroy or visited his shop, but what I have done is auditioned several high-end speakers in the $10-$25K range recently when I was bitten by the bug to upgrade. Frustratingly the Magico A3 was no where on display in the Washington DC area last year when I was doing my auditioning, but I listened extensively to Dynaudio’s new flagship Contour, Focal Sopra 3s, Rockport Atrias, Persona 5Fs and a few others. I auditioned these speakers several times in the various shops where they were on display... both with the dealer’s preferred gear and then finally with my own gear. I literally hauled my Hegel 30 amp, Hegel 30 DAC, Ansuz power conditioning, Aurender music server, all cabling and still-points to each place so I could hear the speakers with my own gear.

When this quest began... the speaker that sounded the best (in a room that closely approximated the size and shape of my own) was the Persona 5Fs driven by the dealer’s preferred Meridian amp and dac/pre front-end (and I think MIT cabling). It sounded lovely... silky, airy, open, expansive and lush. Bass was deep and powerful and palpable... midrange was liquid and utterly detailed with no brightness, harshness, or glare. Those were the speakers I was ready to buy. Then I swapped out the gear with my own... which was by no stretch sub-par. However, the sweetness and glow of the music vanished, and it just sounded "good" but no longer seductive (though still not . Interestingly, moving my same gear to the Rockports was almost a revelation... and was some of the best bass I have ever heard. In the end the speakers my own gear paired best with seemed to be the Focal Sopra 3s.

In any case, the point of this story is that in the same room, the same set of Persona 5Fs sounded phenomenal fronted by one system, but then swapping in another (of comparable cost and audiophile design) only sounded "good" but not compelling.

We all know that gear matters... and can matter a lot. Most of us have been around long enough and have changed enough components in our system over time to know that some $$$ gear can make or break a system... and what sounds fabulous in one system can degrade the sound of another. It’s all about the synergy.

So why are we arguing?

-Dave

Oops, deleted again. 

Gold star for me. 

I have seen a lot worse than what I had removed today left in threads on this site. Someone must have some pretty thin skin. 

Just so you don't miss my point Audiotroy. You are, IMHO, self serving and unethical. That is why I would never set foot in your store. It doesn't matter how great you are, or how great you think you are. That pretty much sums up the other posts that I had deleted. Hopefully, you don't get posts removed here for stating an opinion. 

*

Ok. 
I’m positive csmgolf has it nailed. 

Great comments Dvdboulet, yes it about synergy. Your post was very illuminating wouldn't it have been nice if some of those dealers actually had your equipment on display, might have made it easy?

Your comments, We all know that gear matters... and can matter a lot. Most of us have been around long enough and have changed enough components in our system over time to know that some $$$ gear can make or break a system... and what sounds fabulous in one system can degrade the sound of another. It’s all about the synergy.

Yes our point exactly we have worked very hard to tune our Persona reference  system with just the right components to make it sound fantastic, and when we were demoing electronics we tried many different brands of gear, including Devialet, Electro, CJ, Thrax, before picking the T+A gear as our choice for true reference gear, fired up the Krell today and it does seem excellent especially for the money.

Your experiences mirror our experiences with the Personas and certain other loudspeakers they sound okay on certain setups and magical on others and sometimes the two setups are the same price sometimes not.

The issue that we were trying to highlight was not that we are necessarily better than other dealers, it is our commitment to creating memorable sound systems  may be a bit different, hence we experiment with different power conditoners, cables, source components, vibration isolation devices, etc until we have the sound that we find magical and hopefully that is what our clients like as well. 

When we say we use some of these devices it is to illustrate the lengths we have gone to maximize the systems we are displaying, it is a process creating great sound and if you think that many dealers actually play with or believe that these types of devices work look at many of the stores setups and see. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Can we keep the comments regarding this thread more positive?
Posts bashing other members will not be tolerated. If this continues the thread will be closed.

Another deleted post. Just trying to stay positive. 

Sigh...................

somehow I don’t think a Vandersteen 5a replacement would be anywhere near $10K
Quattro are $14 and TREO CT $8 ish....

I have had a few folks bring over their amps to try out my Quattro CT's and so far they have all sounded great.  They also have all been zero feedback designs, which is what RV recommends on his speakers.  Just loving all the great music as much as I can.  It's all good.

I'll appeal to the moderators:
Please don't close the thread. This is exactly what the disrupters want. Please, instead suspend the disrupters.

Agreed, don’t close the thread. 

But don’t delete submissions with factual, albeit uncomfortable, material. 

The Persona 9H demo pair is being offered at a significant discount now.  I'll be going back and auditioning it again after they tweek that setup and run ARC on the low-end.  I wish I could bring my electronics to the store but frankly the Pass power amp is a monstrous thing to move.  The Pass brings some real magic to my existing Thiel 2.4's and I imagine would work quite well with the Personas.  I believe the dealer will continue to use the Anthem STR preamp and poweramp.  I'll report my impressions of the second listening session later in the week.

I would like to mention that like all of us I have read audiotroy providing his opinion on specific gear and proper systems matching. I always had the impression he was open to questions and today I did happen to call with one. Dave answered the phone and I would like to say he was generous (very) with his time and a pleasure to speak with. I would like to visit his showrooms, but its a bit of a way from Vermont.

Tough crowd here....  I just purchased the Persona 3f's several months ago and am very happy with them.  They are definitely brighter than many other speakers but that does not bother me at all as I usually over do it anyway on both bass and treble. 
They are definitely a dichotomy. In different setups they sound different.  I have setup them up with different McIntosh gear and even an old Vincent 236.  I like them and have put the full wrath of my MC501's through them where the power guard is blinking at me and think they sound as good at low power as they do running full bore. 
They definitely expose weakness in your system and may just keep them around just to test gear.....lol 

My Personas 9H are improving everyday...not bright at all. Glorious midrange and fantastic bass (anthem room correction helps a lot!).

Dave, How do Focal Sopra 3s compare to Contour 60?

At the dealer where I compared (in the same room with speakers in the same basic location), using my Hegel 30 amp, 30 dac, and Aurender music server (and Anzus C2 Cabling)...

The Contour 60s sounded "good" and had phenomenal bass... so extended, effortless, and with "punch" when called for. However, the soundscape was "monochromatic" or to use another visual example... it was like the color was washed out and subdued. At least they sounded that way when listening to them right *after* listening to the Sopra 3s.

The Sopra 3s had bass that was articulate, but less satisfying to my ears without a sense of weight and authority (though they did go low)... that's where the Dyns really beat them IMO. But the mids and highs were glorious... airy, open, extended, not shrill or bright at all... with resolution and micro detail that kept making me wonder how anything could sound higher-resolution than the red-book CD files I was playing. There was also a lush and alive sound to vocals that was seductive... which was why I ultimately bought them.

After having them for a few months I wasn't thrilled with how they sounded in my own living space (I had a hard time getting front/back holographic imaging with them for some reason in my own house... and that's a key criteria that makes me happy when I listen to high-end audio) and I needed cash given some unexpected issues that came up.

I kept my Ansuz cable upgrades (speaker cable and power cords) that I had done at the same time I had bought the Sopras and wow... that has totally transformed my entire system and made my old (I kid you not) AV 123 "rockets" sound better-than-ever. I hope in a few years to be ready to sound-treat the room and figure out what used speakers might be available at that time so I don't take such a financial risk/loss the next go-around.

What a very entertaining thread.  Nearly everyone I've ever met feel that the 9H is on the brighter side of things.  Every time I've heard it that ways (including at Dave's) it's sounded that way to my ears.  No excuses needed as so many folks feel this is what they want.  

For those of us who feel that's not real etc..., it's not a speaker for us.  I'm sure they are selling plenty as they have a ton of money behind the marketing.  I'm happy for Paradigm.  Good for them to market their gear that they love.  

The more I read posts on these sites, I laugh a bit. I laugh at myself a bit also, so this ins't an attack on anyone.  If folks buy gear and then dont' like it, then it's on them/us.  Too many aren't able to go audition or they get lazy and read online adn then buy used.  This is the best way to never be happy and to lose a lot more money than buying new at a top dealer.  Also, many dealers have a great selection of used gear in their stores that they will audition for you and probably be willing to move at a bit lower cost.  

JMHO

I plan on getting the Persona 3F maybe this month since it is on sale by Paradigm. Did auditions of the usual suspects and I like the Persona for the overall combination of sound, tech, and price (mostly sound).

Only issue is what amp to pair this with. I am likely going to use the Anthem STR preamp (because of DSP) but not sure if the Anthem STR amp is as good as some others in the same price range.  Unfortunately the dealer I am using does not carry the STR separates only the STR integrated. Just an Anthem prejudice on my part based on their HT pedigree.  

I am thinking of the following as potential amp options:

Jeff Rowland M535
KRELL 125 XD
CODA #8

Anybody successfully using other warmish sounding SS amps with their Persona's, including the Anthem STR?

I highly recommend the STR preamp for the 3F.   Tremendous value.  Absolutely would recommend over the three you listed.

@contuzzi What a coincidence that you responded. I was just about to search through your A'gon comments on the Persona line. I know you have provided a lot of feedback on them. 

I think you mean that the STR amp is the better choice than the other 3 amps that I have listed. If so, that would make life easier and likely provide better synergy with the Anthem preamp.

Have you heard the Persona's with other amps (maybe costing more) that you liked better than the Anthem?

are the 9f $35,000 usd retail? they only cost 19k cdn each... interesting

I have heard them with the following....


Aavik U-300 integrated (sounded great, but overpriced)

Yamaha RN-803 did okay, and its an awesome piece, but perhaps the only setup I thought that was lacking.

Anthem STR integrated (best value dollar for dollar by far, especially if you want to integrate subs, which this will do better than ANYTHING else out there, fact.  Just wait for the new ARC Genesis update coming out in the next couple months)

Anthem STR preamp with the STR amp (best sound but dollar for dollar the integrated a better value)

Anthem STR preamp with Bryston 4bSST sounded great.

the new carver Amps sounded incredible with them.  I heard a bit with the mono blocks and STR pre. Mind blowing.  Then the 275 or whatever the inexpensive amp is (outstanding) around $2,500.

I haven’t heard them with any of the three you listed other than some modern high top of the line krell stuff and that sounded a little hard to me.  Could have been my expectation bias because I always have thought krell sounds cold and sterile.

I have also heard them with some higher end McIntosh stuff a friend has.  600watt mono blocks I believe, and a Mac preamp.  Sounded a little dry, but I’m sure 90% of the sound difference I heard was the room being completely different.

I think that’s all.


Make sure you toe in the Personas 5 degrees max.  Completely unnecessary for any more aggressive tow in (like any good speaker).  

Let me know if you want me to go into any more detail about what I heard from memory.

Interesting.  I called a dealer in Dallas, and they were not well informed about the Paradigm Persona Trade Up program.  The guy with whom I spoke thought that the amount was UP TO 20%, and was at the discretion of the dealer.  This is not correct, as the 20% discount is direct from Paradigm.  The terms of the deal also indicate that the dealer may also offer and additional discount.  I read the information to him from the Paradigm web site, and he said he would look into it and call me right back.  It's been close to an hour now and I have not heard back.  Seems like a great deal, if it actually works.

@contuzzi Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate the time. I also went back and looked at some of your old Persona post, very helpful.

I heard the Persona 5F with a SimAudio 860A and it was great.


@mtrot Go to the Paradigm web site and register your trade in speakers. They will send you a coupon by email. You take that to your dealer with your trade in speakers. The dealer can discount the speakers beyond the 20% from Paradigm. The trade-in speakers must be in working order and in decent shape. I know they except the KEF LS50 (maybe $800 used). Get one of those and trade in for a Persona 9H with 20% off.

BTW - my dealer informed me on this program

Guys Persona dealer, let me explain the program, first it is not a mandatory program the dealer may or may not want to offer this program.

Two the dealer will not go above the 20% as the dealer is not getting 20% off from Paradigm, we actually make less money with these programs the deal does work to bring in new clients which helps offset the program.

We have very different opinions on the Anthem STR integrated vs Contuzzi, we have the STR integrated and the STR amp and preamp in the same room. 

The STR intergrated is very good, but it is not as warm and full bodied as the separates which totally outperform the integrated amplifier. 

In our tests the Anthem STR is outclassed by the Micromega and the Naim gear, if you like  a clean punchy sound without a lot of additional midrange warmth the STR is your amplifier if you prefer more warmth and body then the other pieces are better. The STR is fantastic value and we are not talking about the effects of room correction which may push the STR integrated into a different catagory just sound of one vs another under identical conditions.

We will agree that the Anthem STR amp and Preamp are a fantatic value.

We will be testing the STR power amp vs the Coda and the Krell more extensively in the weeks ahead. 

Our initial impressions are the Krell power amplifier is more magical but less powerful same with the Coda, the Anthem power amplifier is a little flat sounding, but excells in terms of punch and it is quite smooth.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Krell, Anthem, Coda and Paradigm Dealers

Would the 9f be too much for my small room, 12x15? It's weird how bigger speakers work better in my room because of directional horns or other design quirks but a more traditional speaker with narrow design actually needs MORE space.

@ yyzsantabarbara

Well, I am not going to buy a set of speakers just to be able to use this offer. My speakers are in excellent condition, but certainly not of the value of the Kef LS50s. I think the original MSRP on them was $800/pair, but they are obviously not worth that now.

From the Paradigm Trade Up promotion page:
"Remember, ANY pair of speakers will get you at least 20% OFF your new Paradigm speakers, even ones that you've loved too much and are damaged."

@audiotroy Thanks for the feedback. One of your recent customers, who bought a CODA #8 from you, messaged me that you would be doing such Anthem STR preamp testing in the coming weeks. Hopefully you can post the results without causing mass hysteria. Whatever, the case I will give you a call and we can discuss the amp I would want to get.

As an FYI, the only reason I went to audition the Persona is due to the great feedback Audiotroy has been giving on this line. A ton of negative posts on here about the Persona but I decided to take the time to audition it (a real PIA for me) because a lot of stuff I read on here by Audiotroy makes sense to me. Actually, when most dealers post I make a point of reading their posts because they have great info, even if it is biased towards their products.

I was all set to buy the Magico A3 but after I heard the Persona 5F I knew that the Magico A3 was no longer my favorite (but close). It was the tweeter and mid range that won me over. The Persona demo I had was actually off to a very bad start and I had to give the local dealer feedback on a better setup configuration to make the Person 5F sound better. It was only after those changes did I realize that I liked the Persona over the Magico. So from my efforts, learned by my A’gon research, my local dealer gets a nice sale of the Persona 3F and Anthem STR preamp.

I should add that I was trying a different combo at my local dealership than they used with the Persona’s. So it was not their fault that it sounded aweful at first.

Yysantabarbera, remember we have been saying right from the get go that these speakers are very amplifer sensitive and when used with the right stuff they sound magnificent and in many way outperform speakers that are way more expensive.

When we were setting up our 9H we tried numerous combinations of electronics, digital and power conditioners before we hit magic.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona, Coda, Krell, Anthem dealers

Glad to see a few folks giving the Personas a chance. I am enjoying the heck out my 5f’s. Sound better all the time as they have a long break in time. Electronics on the warmer side and you will be rewarded. 
Cabling is also very important. Cerious Technologies Matrix line is a great match. Replaced the Audience AU 24SX at half the cost and really a perfect cable for the the Personas. 

Well,

Demo'd these a few times.  (and a few speakers in the persona line-up)

If you like detail, I mean LOTS of detail they have it in spades.  The first 10-15 minutes at moderate volume - holy crap, if it's in the recording they will reproduce it.

After 10-15 minutes with the volume cranked up a bit, no thank you for me.  Cymbals, Cymbals, and more Cymbals... but I listen to rock, blues, and reggae.  

IF you are interested I absolutely make sure you demo them long, hard, and a few times WITH the electronics you are going to use.

I could see someone loving them who listens to Jazz, female vocals, and loves to analyze the recordings and every micro detail at moderate volumes.  They do it, and they do it well.

For a listener who likes to add a little gas and have a little fun - man I would make sure your electronics are WARM and your room is damped.  

I'm sure they measure really, really well.  

There are no 9Fs, I see someone keep mentioning them. 9H and 7F. Personally I wasn't a fan of the 3Fs, but the 9Hs were fantastic. I would get the 5Fs if that's what you auditioned...unless you also auditioned the 3Fs and liked them.

From Stevie Ray to Daft Punk the Personas Rock. I heard  the 5f’s at  Axpona with the Macintosh 600 watt monos do 1 k peaks and filled a 30x60 room with 14 ft ceilings  without a quiver We where sitting 15 ft away measuring 100 dB peaks.  The Personas have beautiful midrange and delicate highs.  The speakers you hear demoed at the dealers(most) are not a true representation of how good the Personas can be.  I  sit in a pretty much near field with mine and the micro detail in these speakers are exceptional.  With their high efficiency they will work with a number of amps, tube or SS

Little info on the Genesis room correction upgrade from Paradigm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e6oesnfjax4gxm2/ARC%20GENESIS%20DECK%2001292019.pdf?dl=0

@nitewulf I need to go with the 3F because my room is small. The 3F is boarding on being a little too big itself but acoustic treatments and ANTHEM STR preamp with ARC3 should save the day. However, most of my listening is at moderate to low levels so I maybe worrying about nothing.

@benzman Interesting take on the Audience cables. I have that for my current system. Maybe I need to move the cables to the bedroom with the current office speakers. Thanks for the heads up, I am going to look into compatible wires later.