Paradigm Persona series

The problem many of us have with the Persona's are the highs. They are tipped up a bit when measured properly. This will allow them to artificially sound more open maybe, but they are fatiguing to many, but not all.

this is why you must audition in your room.  I'd personally never spend a dime on a speaker without auditioning it, but that's me. I also don't buy speakers that often and when I do, it's usually to upgrade within the same company.  I've only owned Proac and Vandersteen's since the 1990's (for my main system).  I've owned JM Labs (now known as Focal) in a bedroom system and loved them.  I also have owned Paradigms for another den system and enjoyed them with their top sub in the day, but they weren't bright teh way I find their newer speaker designs.  I have had many folks bring speakers to the house to audition over the years, but nothing so far has me changing from my Steen's.  

Rooms are important, but if you find a speaker to bright in a store, it will most probably not be that much better in your room (although it's amazing what a room will do to sound, lol).  Conversely it also won't change the sound of a dull speaker either and there are plenty of those on teh market too as there are plenty who like that sound.

We are all sensitive to different things and I find most listeners audition and try to hear what they are told to listen for by dealers who are trying to sell their speakers.  That's fine. I personally have always trusted my own ears. I also take away the remote from anyone I am listening with so no one gooses the volume etc...  

I personally found years ago that I like the time and phase correct designs best as long as they are implemented properly.  There have been only a few designers who make their speakers this way as it's not easy and it's not cheap to do it.  The original Thiels, Meadowlark, Vandersteen and Dunleavy and Green Mountain Audio are some. I think Maggies and Emminent Technologies are also time and phase correct.  They have to be first order in order for this to be true.  Wilson and others may claim they are, but they aren't.  

JMHO...

I won’t argue with the personas being more transparent with better imaging I would suggest the bass integration is also phenomenal wrt personas, but the ushers are considerably less fussy to placement and partnering electronics. 

@milkdud Before you spend any money on speakers you should evaluate the room. electronics, speakers, and wires and decide if everything is optimized. The room being the most important in my view. You can put an incredible speaker in a bad room and it won't sound incredible.

Your speakers seem like they are pretty good from what I remember of the Usher Tiny Dancer and the Be20 that I heard. 

I worked with GIK acoustics remotely to help tame my office room and my simple KEF LS50s sounded incredible afterwards.

Actually a few minutes ago I rearranged some things in my living room where the LS50's now reside with a KEF KC62 sub and I was so happy with the results. It saved me a ton of money because I don't think I will change this setup for a while. The LS50 are bettered by the new LS50 Meta and the KEF Reference 1 but I could have bought one of those better speakers and had bad sound unless I fixed my room first.

BTW - If you want uber detail (like my living room system) demo some very quiet gear. 

Hi guys we were Usher dealers great speakers in their day the personas are much more transparent and inage better

For your room persona 3fs

Or the personna b or kef ref1
With a good small sub for the persona B the Ref 1s go low enough for most

DAVE AND TROY
audio intellect
Paradigm and kef dealers

Ushers are great speakers.  The xover upgrade for my be 20dmd’s was pretty reasonable. I sold them because I really wanted to try a pair of dsp units that came up, but usher does a really great job making revealing speakers that don’t shred your set list. The dmd midrange driver available as an upgrade is interesting, tho i really thought the be mid was perfect.

Thanks again to both of you guys for responding. As far as my ultimate goal in a speaker would be, I would say the feeling of being there if it were live performers is the goal. I think that’s the case for a lot of us. I do like a lot of micro detail if I’m saying that right. For instance I would not want even a slightly veiled sound even if it made the sound a little sweeter. What I’m already getting out of my Ushers is pretty darn good. Things like acoustical solos or vocals are pretty amazing. What I wonder is if it could be better when a lot of things are going on at once. I’ve often wondered when a bunch of musicians are playing at the same time and different vocals and sound effects and such, can any speaker really match the sound of a live performance? Maybe speakers with three or four drivers hold a big advantage in that way. I suspect you guys might know the answer to that. What I did yesterday is send an email to GR-research that specializes in upgrading speakers with better or even the best components internally. I know he has worked with different Usher speakers in the past. That would be my perfect and game if I could put a few hundred or maybe even a thousand or two into the speakers I have and match the performance of these speakers that are and the 8 to 15 thousand dollar range when new. I know that’s a tall task and may not be realistic. I know it’s money I would never see again if I ever sold them, but if I like them enough I don’t think I ever would sell them

Your KEF dealer will tell you that there is no word on any META release. It is likely the case that there is no news on this upgrade but your dealer will also prefer to make a sale today.

I would wait at least till the end of this year. The KEF LS50 was the first KEF to get the META treatment about 12 months ago. They said it would trickle up the line to the REFERENCE and likely BLADE.

The question posted above is something you should think about. A neutral speaker (like most I have listed) or something a little warmer. It would also affect the gear you would need to buy (or maybe already have).

what's your price range Milk?  That's important to know ;).  Do you like a true neutral sound or do you like a speaker that can be tilted in the upper end a bit?

Sorry, when I said Dynaudio I was thinking Dali. The Epicon 2 specifically. I have a call into my local Kef dealer to discuss availability and price for the Ref 1. I will also ask him if he can find out about a new Meta version. Thanks for the heads up, I didn't know anything about that new design

I was never moved by  Dynaudio. I heard they top of the line stuff about a decade ago. Very expensive back then. I have not heard Canton.

I recently called the dealer where I demoed the TAD ME-1 and after I heard they are no longer distributed in the USA I crossed them off my list.

The Yamaha and Persona 5F (naked) would be too much for such a room. I have the same room and I have an equally (well almost) large speaker, the Thiel C3.7, in this room. It was my mission to make it work in this small space. I now have it sounding amazing on my ROON streaming via physical sound panels from GIK Acoustics. I also have software DSP using Convolution files added into ROON Server. These DSP files were created by Mitch Barnett of Accurate Sound in Canada. I measured my room with tools recommended by Mitch and gave him the resulting data files. He cam back with the DSP Convolution file(s). I choose the one that was the best fit for me. Interestingly, when I recently got a CODA #8 amp I switched to the Convolution file that did not have a slight bass bump. 

You could make the Persona 5F and Yamaha NS5000 work in this space with the same technique as I used. However, I would suggest the following more appropriate speakers for you room to make your life easier. I wanted something inappropriate for the small space.

- Magico A1 
- Vivid Kaya 45 (very expensive)
- KEF Reference 1 (I would wait for Meta version if buying new)
- Persona 3F (need warm gear if you listen all day like me)
- KEF LS50 + KEF KC62 sub 

I have the KEF LS50 + KC62 system in a large room driven by a Topping pre90 and Benchmark AHB2 monos and it sounds very good. It would be incredible in my small office.

Thanks yyzsantabarbara for the very thorough response. Of all of the speakers you mentioned I think only the Kef and Persona 3F would be speakers I could consider to purchase new. All of the rest would have to be pre-owned to keep the price at 10k or under. Do you not think the Yamaha and the Persona 5F would be too much in a 9x12 room? Also would you feel confident buying TAD knowing they are no longer distributed here? Thinking if I ever needed a replacement part or something. Any thoughts of Dynaudio or Canton? Canton also seems like a company with little or no us presence. Thanks again

I would take the TAD ME-1 over the Persona 3F. I would take the Persona 5F over the ME-1. I have auditioned all 3 when I was looking to buy. I would use my KRELL K-300i integrated on both lines because they could both use some warmth.

One of the worst auditions I had was with a 9H. Very disappointing that that dealer had no clue about setting up the speaker, he had the bass cranked up to 11.

TAD is no longer sold in the USA.

I auditioned the Usher Mini Dancer (non-diamond). I thought it sounded very good but the TAD ME-1 is much better. I also liked the KEF Reference 1 over the Usher Mini Dancer. The TAD ME-1 over the KEF Reference 1.

Check out the Yamaha NS5000 with some neutral gear. I liked it the best of all the speakers I have listed.

Thanks for responding. Actually the more I read about these the more I think it would be too risky to buy without listening. And to answer your question I don't think I have a way to audition them. This thread might be the one I read a few months ago that had a lot of people either loving them or not so much. Then I saw a pre-owned set for sale that got me interested. There's a different thread here where everybody pretty much babbled incoherently how unbelievably great they were. I think some linked to some reviews that may have been skewed in Paradigm's favor. One speaker that nobody seems to ever talk badly about is the TAD stand mount. Maybe I should just be happy with what I have and keep in the back of my mind that someday under the right circumstances I may be able to get a set of those

only you can be the judge of that. Many find the Persona to be a bit bright and fatiguing and others love them. Anytime you get that type of response from a speaker you must listen to it with you gear. Even dealers who post on them say they have to be set up perfectly and you need great gear that has synergy as well as a room that is tuned properly in order for them to sound really good. I’ve heard the series and they aren’t my cup of tea.  We all hear differently. Can you audition anywhere?

Curious if anyone who has had a chance to listen to the Persona B stand mount and also have listened to the Usher Dancer Mini-X DMD. In a small 9 x 12 listening room, how much better if any would the Persona likely be? Thanks in advance

The pathos logos mk2 was my favorite

The right room and system matching and the Persona's will reward you.
I have a Cary DMS Streamer/player/dac mated with an Rogue RP7 w/ upgraded tubes and the Person 5F's sound fantastic!! . Not the least bit of edginess or fatigue.  Still tweaking the swarm sub system. ( you may not need with the 7F) 
The Persona's are great speakers but need to be carefully matched, but when you do you will be rewarded!!
I just added a few pics on the new listening room, still tweaking but like where its headed. 

@steve59 What gear are you using to make your 7F sound so good?

As to cutting edge material, It was the main reason I was interested in the persona line and they can be amazing, but I still think everything is a compromise. When we hear details never before heard from a recording there has to be a reason and my initial impressions are instrument decay loses emphasis... it's a design choice to place hyper detail over lush midrange because both can't occupy the same space at the same time and both be heard. Whats unusual about the persona speakers is that choosing the components for the job these speakers will deliver the sound you prefer. My meridians are more on the lush, fat side of neutral with a full midrange and all the detail is there, it's just not highlighted making for a more natural, musical presentation. The personas with the right components for the room acoustics can be tuned for the sound desired. This I know because I've heard it happen swapping out gear.

I’ve only heard the Blades at axpona while ive had time to listen to the 7f with a variety of components. The R 107/2 and R105/3 had residence here, the 105’s for 25 years so I was ready for something different. There’s a few pair on my list including the blade is the VA ‘the musik and I’d like to hear the new magico A5, but these personas are really good and I have to sell them to move on. I just finished alice in chains unplugged and could play it again. Thats how it is with this system, the more time I spend with them the harder it is to walk away, fast, tight and dynamic bottom to top with a deep, wide soundstage. I get the impression the entire recording is laid bare, pretty cool. 3 weeks in.

The Blade + Meta is what I am looking at when I get the large living room for music. We will have to wait for the Blade + Meta future release. Covaid also needs to be managed so my kid goes back to school and I can use the living room (his playroom).

I will be buying a second AHB2 (maybe this week) and then the last item will be the NS5000 for my office. It should be good combo. I will do a home demo of the NS5000 with the Benchmark electronics (via Music Direct), so no risk. If it does not sound good the NS5000 will go back and I find something else for the Benchmark gear.

Looking forward to your comments on the Persona 7F. I am flipping back and forth between a big Persona or the Blade for the living room. Likely the Blade now with this Meta stuff.

The Yamaha is still on my short list along with the blade and a couple others,but for now I'm just going to enjoy these.

@steve59 Congrats that is a great speaker. You 360 amp is one that I have heard a few times and liked somewhat with the KEF Blade. However, I have heard the Persona 5F with an amp that sounds a bit like the Hegel 360, the neutral SimAudio 860A. I think the Sim is a bit better than the Hegel but I found that very long listening sessions with the Sim + Persona could be a little fatiguing. The short sessions with the Sim were amazing.

One reason I did not get the Persona 3F was that I wanted to buy the very neutral Benchmark electronics stack and I was assuming it would not be a good match with the Persona.

Bump, have the persona 7f in my listening room right now where the salon 1 & 2, usher be20dmd, Kanta 3, a couple 90’s kef Reference the VA strauss And Beethoven have spent time. These are easy to power, so I would suggest a quality 50 wpc over a powerhouse ‘affordable’ unit. I’m using my hegel h360 but I’ve heard these with a few pieces driving them and I wonder if the Pathos I liked them so much with at the shop would make the same magic here? Not bright, no sibilance, but I can understand why some folk say so as the detail in the midrange is uncommon and bass is tight. The speakers with the Hegel do seem more like surgical instruments than musical instruments, but its early days and I haven’t spent any time on placement yet, I may not they’re really fun as they sit.  I’ll add more as I spend time with them.

He posts on a Canadian audio board as well...Under Havocman id....Same song and dance   ....

Guys, there are tons of trolls on the boards. It's what many boards have turned into.  A few of the dealers who post are also pretty much trolls.  They use the boards to further their business/finances.  Again, contuzzi, why does it matter?  

It's still up to readers to make up their own minds.  I don't let things like boards bother me too much.  I've been irritated over the years by some (mostly my sports boards), but overall, it's still a fun place for me to hang out.  I often cant' get out of the housed due to my MS, so this is a fun place to read and sometimes post.  It's all good as long as folks are mean spirited or rude to others.  

Wrong. It's his choice.

it's his right

+1 @contuzzi 

The upside is all the renewed exposure for Paradigm. Most thread readers will effectively filter. BTW, Monitor is the brand being harmed.

How do you not see that this guy is blatantly trolling and doing everything he can to bash persona and talk up monitor?  Do you not see that he is actively searching for old threads where persona is mentioned only to post random attacks on the speaker completely out of any context?

Its not about “his right” it’s about common sense.  This guy is basically spam.  I’m sorry you can not see that very obvious point.

Contuzzi, it's his right.  We all have products that we own, or enjoy that we use as a reference since we are familiar with them.  

I do think that listeners need to really LISTEN and stop taking anything we all discuss on a board as the be all end of of their purchases.  One of the main things that the Persona fans talk about constantly is their need for proper component matching.  Heck, that's fair for most speakers and why some are now making their own electronics.  

Got to see Richard Vandersteen this weekend and he said ONE thing that stuck out more than anything.  It's something I was taught as a kid by a great store owner.  Bring 5 albums (or downloads) that you listen to and know.  My 5 are always male vocal, female vocal, acoustic bass, piano and something 70's rock (where they really rode the board for radio and not hi fi playback (it needs a lot of help, lol).  

How the F$&K is this child not banned? 
Searching for any thread (this case, the latest reply being almost two months old) just to randomly bash persona and praise Monitor Audio.

Is there ANY moderating that goes on in this joke of a forum?

I went to listen to the 7F. I really wanted to like the persona series being Canadian at all since I am Canadian. But that beryllium Tweeter and midrange are so bright and edgy sounding they don't sound natural at all. the monitor audio Platinum series is much more natural three-dimensional sounding. And the width and depth of the soundstage is also much better with the platinum's. Paradigm has never been a high-end company they're trying but they still got a ways to go with that Tweeter and midrange.

No problems at all.  Jeff and I didn't always agree on things we heard.  We liked some of the same gear, but not all.  Both of us know what we heard with the 9H's and have heard at others places.  

This is now the first time you have brought up the tone control issue.  Didn't even realize the pre had tone controls.

Maybe you told Jeff not to come, but I never got that message as I wouldn't have bothered if I had know in advance.  

Those speakers have sounded the same in every room I've heard them in.  It's their house sound and if you are into that, it's awesome.  This is why we have different flavor speakers and gear.

You sell them and like them, or like the fact they sell (most probably both).  That's fine.  MANY of us find them very bright regardless of what you play them with and in what room.  

Again, not a big deal.

Ct you have a problem understanding we went through this with you before.

We said multiple times that when you heard the 9H on that day the system did not sound like it normally does.

In fact we agreed with you and if you remember we didnt want you to visit that day.

Later we found out that the tone controls on the preamp were engaged with the treble beIng raised along with a few other issues.

It would be entirely different if we thought the system sounded great on your visit.

Troy, you constantly try to poke holes in so many who feel they are tipped up adn fatiguing regardless of upstream equipment.  

You sell them so of course you are going to make excuses.  I went to your place to hear them with Jeff (RIP buddy) and no matter what you played with them, they were terrible, pure and simple.  Then came the excuses of how you didn't have them set up properly, because you had a photo shoot etc..  Then it was your DAC wasn't fully burned in and then it was the dog ate the homework.  

Jeff and I both left quickly when you put on the Legacy speakers and you constantly moved them to try and position them properly while we were listening.  We both said to each other that the 9H's and the Legacy's sounded the same as they have at other places we heard them regardless of how you had them set up.  

I alternate between the Persona Bs and Harbeth 30.1s in my dedicated 11x18 room. To my ears, the Personas are significantly more sensitive to upstream equipment but very rewarding with the right match.  For example, the Personas can be a bit fatiguing with the LTA MZ3 but fantastic with the Don Sachs pre and LS-28.  The Harbeths are very good (but different) with all 3 preamps but slightly better with the MZ3.  As far as power amps, the Personas love the Pass XA-25 but are indifferent to the VT-80SE whereas the Harbeths work well with both amps, but with slightly better imaging and soundstage from the VT-80SE.

Very interesting Rionvondale, that a guy who sells Paradigm, bought a pair of speakers that he  feels sound fatiguing and can only play a few albums. 

Could it be that the speakers are showing weaknesses in his system, could it be his cartridge is tipped up, or he may need a better phono stage,  or that his current line up of gear isn't working for the Paradigms.

Many times when you add one new component you must re-balance the system to keep the good new things and minimize the things that you are not liking. 

We tested five or six lines of amplifiers before we found the electronics that really made our Persona 9H come alive all of these amplifiers were fantastic pieces from great companies, it is called synergy.

So just because this person has a warm sounding SA 103 doesn't mean that the rest of his components were working with the speakers vs the previous set he was using. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers

I own Paradigm Studio 100 V5 speakers and have had significant time with the Persona 9H’s. To me they are anything but fatiguing. In fact, just the opposite. They are smooth and the drivers are seamlessly integrated. There are a lot of great speakers in the $17k range and I’d put these up against any of them. Also, they are pretty easy to drive. I heard them well set up at Axpona 2018 with Anthem electronics and it was one of the best presentations of the show. 

I second the above. I’ve heard the Persona two separate times, in different rooms, one with my solid state amplifier and another with a beastly Plinius SA-103 in pure Class A. Both times they sounded immediately impressive, but became grating and annoying after 5-10 minutes. Awesome resolution, but not worth the trade offs.

That Plinius is by far the best amp I’ve heard, and I’ve heard it on at least two other pairs of speakers to great effect. Resolving, relaxing and powerful. 

I can also confirm that I’ve spoken with someone who sells Paradigm and has a pair of Personas at home. They said they are usually done listening to them after a record or two. They are not the kind of speaker you can listen to for hours and relax. This person was probably around 60 years old and I’m in my early 30s. 

Contuzzi,

I feel strongly that you are way off base.  We all hear differently and therefore enjoy different speakers and gear.  

I get sick of hearing about terrible sets up, poor sounding rooms etc... I've heard them set up in very good to poor rooms and always with good gear from all of the top manufacturers.  I hear a fatiguing speaker as do many listeners and lot's of them don't ever post on Internet boards.  Even a few of their dealers feel the same way privately, but Paradigm is a larger company who does extensive marketing so they sell a lot of it.  

I'm also not competing with anything or anyone.  When the grandiose claims kept being made by a dealer who posts on anything he sells (the boards are his main source of advertising), I called him out.  I then even went to said dealers home where he sells his gear and hear the same sound.  He made claims of his gear not being set up properly, because of a photo shoot the night before.  Maybe it was, or maybe not.  Either way the other guy I was with disliked them more than I did for the same reasons most of us have shared.   Sorry, not an industry guy as I'm friends with many and that includes some folks at Paradigm.

No one is looking for, nor needing your pity.  We've heard them set up properly and they aren't our cup of tea.  Nothing wrong with that and it's not even a knock on them.

BTW, I have owned JM Lab speakers back in the day and just sold them a few years ago.  I also have owned a few pair of Paradigm speakers and subs over the years.  One set is with my daughter and they are perfect for what she uses them for.  I got my brother to purchase a full audio/video surround set up with the older Paradigm's.  I've helped many of my friends set up system with them as they like them.  Maybe that makes me a Paradigm home or 'industry' guy.  I just don't like the new offerings for MY ears.  

They are the same except for the bookshelf Persona, as it has to act as a mid bass and not just a midrange.  The crossover points on some of the various models are a little different as well.

As I always say, anyone who thinks negatively (usually aggressively negative) of the Personas has heard them set up terribly, or are just against the Paradigm name.

Although there are also a group of industry people who are competing with Paradigm who troll the forums and create false negative buzz intentionally. 
I pity people who have not experienced the Personas properly.  

I could be wrong but I thought the mid and tweeter were the same thru out the range? same with the front baffleAre we still talking about these speakers? They HAVE to be something special for all the attention they get.

This graph is of the bookshelf B model. Are there measurements of the larger models available somewhere?

@djverne

According to the NRC anechoic measurements the Persona’s 7 inch midrange starts beaming around 1500hz. The driver is crossed over at 2K. The Harman anechoic chamber also measured a sound power drop of about 5db in the 1.5-2k range in their measurements of the Persona.

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/images/stories/loudspeakermeasurements/paradigm_persona_b/fr_456075.gif

A lot of companies won’t mate a 1" tweeter with a large woofer because of the directivity issues it causes.

AT, you are very wrong about VAndy guys not liking some of the Rockport speakers.  I've heard the Personas many many times with great gear.  They are tipped up on the high end and even dealers who sell many have said the same.  That's the sound that you are selling and many are buying and enjoying.  There' room for everyone.

That said, someone I know has a pair of Rockport Lyra's paired with over 400k worth of source, electronics, cords, cables etc...  They sounded very inviting with the reel to reel.  They weren't fatiguing in teh way the Persona's are to MY ears.  Do I still like Vandersteen's Sub Nine system with his own amps?  Yes, I do especially when paired with the Ayre KXR preamp or the Audio Research pre or the D'Agastino pre.  

What you have to realize is that many of us enjoy a specific speaker line or two, but can still enjoy a different flavor of sound.  I just don't like things that fatigue me and hurt my ears (not picking on the Paradigm's, just that type of sound in general).  Heck, I love the Harbeth's.  Can enjoy them all day long, but they don't do many things that I need on a daily basis when spending this kind of money.  JMHO 

@david_ten ,

That's cool, to each his/her own.  I wasn't trying to convince you. 

I was just saying that I think in ideal world better to get speakers first, if possible, although I didn't do it that way either for various reasons.  Maybe the next time I go through the ordeal I will try to follow my own advice, haha.

Cheers

Yes I know audiotroy. As I said, I disagree. I’ve heard the Persona’s in 4 different set ups now, all different gear, and a speaker’s "personality" does not radically change (unless you put some incredibly colored tube amp on it or something).


They are really excellent speakers. But this is a thread in which to discuss them, and if I have further encounters or thoughts, I post them.  If you think for some strange reason I’m posting too many comments on them, compare the number of your posts continually extolling your opinion, vs my meager contribution ;-)


And btw I don’t just like "colored" speakers (and the Persona’s certainly aren’t the most neutral measuring speakers out there - that top end peak!). I also love the Joseph Audio speakers which, especially the Pulsar, measure more neutral than the Persona floor standing speakers.


I was a fan of Dunlavy, again measured very neutral. I also own Waveform speakers (very neutral), Thiel, even the Harbeth SuperHL5 plus I owned and enjoyed, and despite some like to disparage their cabinet design, JA said of the measurements: "measured performance is beyond reproach." And an Aussie mag stated they had the most evenly balanced frequency range from bottom to top than they’d ever measured. And to me even those made instruments and voices sound significantly more natural to me. (Again, I don’t make any claim that anyone else should feel the same).


And of course I’ve heard a great many other speakers that measure everywhere from colored to extremely neutral. So I have a pretty good yardstick.


It’s ok if someone doesn’t fall in love with the Persona’s. It really is :-)

Prof, 

Again we get that these speakers aren't for you, but have to ask what was the gear, electronics and source driving them?

We have found that with the right electronics and digital the speakers can sound extraordinary, but with the wrong gear they are not going to be a good sounding speaker, 

The Paradigms are very particular in what you use them with, we have found using them with warmer electronics, and or a dac will bring them alive.

Based on your previous likes with Devores which are very organic but highly colored loudspeakers we would think that you would not find the Personas to your taste.

It is like the Vandersteen or Harbeth guys, they are not going to like a Rockport, or  a Persona. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers