I too an a Vandy guy. I never was until I spent time with all the other speakers out there in my range and found them to be the best compromise. Every speaker is a compromise and you either like or don't like what is compromised.
The Vandy is similar in design to the old Thiel in that it's time and phase correct. No smearing and tons of micro and macro detail. Paired with a zero feedback design amp, it can be magical. I also have found that in MY room, it's been the best by far as I have a difficult room. I have spoken to Richard V about how he designs them and it's in a real world environment. No special chambers etc... That's probably why it's been the best sounding in my room.
I personally have heard the Paradigm's in many venues and never liked them. Just not my cup of tea. I found their highs to be tipped up bit and that's fatiguing to me (maybe not to others). I also found them to lack coherency to MY ears. Again, there are different speakers for all our ears. This is why going to listen is so important. Many designers will produce these ultra dynamic speakers as they will stand out in a store, but they often lack the micro and macro details that give you the emotion in a song. Again, just my opinion. |
Folks, all speakers have a house sound. That's due to the compromise that the designer makes. This is why we either like or dislike specific brands. I do try to go in with an open mind when any company changes a design practice. I couldn't listen to Wilson's until Darrel took over and started to use a soft dome tweeter. Uber dynamic and easier to listen to. I could easily own pair now, but personally feel they are not detailed enough for my tastes and I don't get the emotion that I hear out of other speakers (including other's not named Vandersteen, lol).
If you like Paradigm, then you will like these new speakers. They are very well extended on top, so system matching is more crucial than other speakers (IMHO). They are just too bright for my ears (as well as many folks I've spoken with) no matter what room they are in. As I have stated, I've heard them many times in many situations. That includes a friends house where the room sounds great. Not overly damped as many are and his electronics are top notch tubes (AR ref gear). It's the best I've heard them sound, but still just not my cup of tea. His either as he returned them adn is still looking.
That's not a cut at all. It's just that they have a house sound that is Paradigm's. As I ahvce stated, I own an older pair still. My daughter uses them for her parties at college (as I had their former top sub with them). There are a ton of choices in the 35k and under range and of all varieties. Now, more than ever, it's important to audition in stores and get advice from folks who actually match speakers to various electronics and cables. System matching is as critical as ever. There is a market for most gear (some stuff just universally sucks). |
I still don't understand how you can use a cable to take something away from any speaker and not lose information. Honest question and it goes for anything. I am very surprised that if that specific cable needs to be used with the Paradigm in order to tame their high end. I've never seen them offered at any of their stores I've been to and that's many.
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Many of us are in the Most camp. You can't fix broken, but many chase their tails trying. I'm making a point and not saying that the speakers are broken. Not by any means. Many folks value what they do. Many of us have the same issues of coherency and being too bright. This is why they are successful.
I've heard the same speaker(9H) in multiple sets ups, with top gear of different companies of both SS and tube and come away with the same issues for my ears. I'm blessed that I have friends I can go to stores with or I'd never physically be able to, but I do when I feel up to it.
If you need such specific details to make something listenable, then the basic concept it broken IMHO. I've heard Rockport Lyra's in a few systems over the last year. totally different size rooms. One was a poor set up and another had way too many things going on. The cabling was inexpensive to uber expensive. One had a great reel set up (oh man....just oh man) and one was vinyl. One had vinyl, digital and a rebuilt Studer Revox. That was a holy cow system.
The bottom line is that the speakers had the exact same basic sound. The base sound was outstanding in so many ways and the differences went from there. I agree that most dealers show rooms are not the best sounding. many reasons for this and some dedicated rooms have too much dampening as they are trying to sell the stuff, lol. I have a local high end dealer who has a terrible 50hz vibration and it hurts the sound terribly, but his Wilson Alexa mk2's sound like any other Alexa I've heard in other's homes or stores.
Many folks love the Paradigm's, but honestly, they are one of the most polarizing speakers on the market. The threads on any board point that out and I even own a pair of older Paradigm's, lol. |
Dave, thanks for posting my thoughts and views. Makes it easier for me to post as I guess I don't need to anymore. I posted my thoughts and views, but you decided to tell me what I am going to post and then even told me why 'I' am wrong, lol.
I stand by what I hear and what my personal thoughts are. I have no dog in the fight as you do, so folks can make their own judgements as they should anyways. I get to hear a lot of gear. Show conditions are just that. Most systems don't even sound good until Sunday. This is why I have never been to a 2 channel show.
As for anyone making a point about something being great because of a review, again it's just someone's opinion. Fun to read and I do love to read them. Still that argument over anything, including gear I love and or own, doesn't mean a thing.
BTW, I don't like warm music. I like accurate music in my own room. You don't have to have a hot running speaker for it to be detailed and give you micro and macro detail. Just because you like something also doesn't mean it's great. You make many posts as though you know more than I or others and honestly you don't. We all have our own ears to listen to make up our own minds on systems and matching.
Thanks for no longer making posts telling me and others how I feel and what I like adn here. Thanks. Hope you are well. |
"No CT you can post whatever you like"
Gee, thanks for the permission. Appreciate that.
Dave, you don't read all my posts, so your statement holds no water. You are a dealer and are using this forum to sell your products. I guess that's ok with AG, but since you are selling, I and others take anything you post with a grain of salt as your income depends on what you post. It's as simple as that.
Many of us laugh at your posts about what you like and don't like. You don't get out and listen like many hobbyists. Maybe at a show and maybe some folks bring gear in for you to audition at your house/store, but in the end, I bet you haven't heard the newest Steen's, possibly Wilson's, Magico's etc.... You just aren't able to. As anyone will tell you, show conditions are not a way to make any true impression about how things sound.
YOU (not the we that you always post) can say what you want about how YOU categorize speakers or any other piece of equipment for that matter, but that's to your ears etc... There are plenty of speakers that have as much resolution as the electronics can feed them and are not as demanding as you say. To say that a speaker that is easy to set up (is that what drop and plop means? Trying to figure that one out) so it's not high resolution is painting with the broadest of brushes and highly unfair to many great designers.
You mention Harbeth's. I promise you that you haven't heard the latest Steen's and you haven't heard the newer Harbeth Anniversary 40.whatever it is. I got to hear them with the newest top MSB electronics, including their new multi box DAC served by a simple Aurender N10. Power cords were Audioquest Dragons and Hurricane's going through the Niagara 7000 power deal. The room was as good as any room at a store that I've ever heard. It ws magical. A bit on the warm side of neutral as most Harbeth's are, but not 'warm' in the audiophile sense. It had as much micro and macro detail as anything I heard in your store (Legacy and Persona). As with any great speaker they scaled with better products feeding them. The set up was very simple and easy, so I guess they are drop and plop??? I could easily live with that set up and love them daily.
My Ears and Mike's system (Sarasota's Suncoast Audio) |
Funny story. My buddy Matt just got back from the NYC Show and told me how much he liked the Harbeth anniversary 40.2....those are the ones I just posted about loving. He totally agreed with me. Funny as we both are hard on other speakers. We know what he like. The other thing that happened yesterday is that I heard a story from a good friend., They were all being shown the 9H's and to a person they had the same reaction and it wasn't positive is all I'll say. Again, maybe all of these guys (who are in the industry and have no dog in the fight if you would) have the same hearing problems. I found that interesting though. Again, if you like the sound, that's awesome, but this is why I read and enjoy reviews and don't listen to them. (and yes, I have posted links about Vandy 7' s and then Quatro's getting best in show reward for most shows and the Quatro got a best for the money or something like that), but I even posted that I don't go with reviews.
Just interesting stuff. |
Yea, he's like I am, very very selective. I haven't heard their other models, but I bet they are also very good for their prices. |
Maple,your post was actually kind of mean, but whatever. Not bashing, just sharing my thoughts. I've always told folks to go listen. Especially at this level. Many like that sound and they are selling well I"m sure. I'm happy for Paradigm. I have owned a pair of their speakers for years now. Kids use them for dorm room. No animosity.
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BTW, I've heard many Rockports in many systems and rooms and never not liked them. Some of my fav's are Vandy 7 mk2, Rockports and Tidal's. Also enjoyed Magico's for the first time. M3 I think they were. You have lot's of great choices out there in the price range you are playing in. |
I have a friend who sells the Luxman gear and loves it for the right situation (just like anything, it has to be matched properly). I still own an old Luxman tuner (70's). I enjoyed the separates when in Japan years ago. |
First off some speakers are designed to be used with grills.
Secondly, I agree that flat response can be boring in a real life room. My favorite speakers are all voiced in real rooms and not in chambers. This is why I'm not a fan of so many of the Canadian brands (totally personal choice).
Any component needs to be part of a system. I don't like some components and never will regardless of what they are paired with.
If you have to 'tune' with cables, then there is a problem with the system IMHO. Give me neutral cables and get a system that sounds great to your ears.
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I have had a few folks bring over their amps to try out my Quattro CT's and so far they have all sounded great. They also have all been zero feedback designs, which is what RV recommends on his speakers. Just loving all the great music as much as I can. It's all good. |
What a very entertaining thread. Nearly everyone I've ever met feel that the 9H is on the brighter side of things. Every time I've heard it that ways (including at Dave's) it's sounded that way to my ears. No excuses needed as so many folks feel this is what they want.
For those of us who feel that's not real etc..., it's not a speaker for us. I'm sure they are selling plenty as they have a ton of money behind the marketing. I'm happy for Paradigm. Good for them to market their gear that they love.
The more I read posts on these sites, I laugh a bit. I laugh at myself a bit also, so this ins't an attack on anyone. If folks buy gear and then dont' like it, then it's on them/us. Too many aren't able to go audition or they get lazy and read online adn then buy used. This is the best way to never be happy and to lose a lot more money than buying new at a top dealer. Also, many dealers have a great selection of used gear in their stores that they will audition for you and probably be willing to move at a bit lower cost.
JMHO |
Dave, you honestly need to stop with saying folks aren't listening to these in systems not set up properly etc... That's just a false statement. I have heard these in numerous systems with excellent electronics etc... and that includes YOUR house/store! They are a bright speaker, but as I've said, many love that.
There's plenty of room for all, but please stop it already. They are not easy to match up at all. Reality and not a knock on them. |
There is a reason that many loudspeakers will sell and all sound so different. There is a lot of disinformation out there about many lines and some comes from boards. Folks all hear differently and all too often dealers will discuss others speakers and claim they have heard, them, but really haven't heard the new models etc... I've even heard about a specific dealer talking to another dealer about a speaker he carries. Come to find out the dealer who claims he has heard this line was talking about the 8k speaker and thinking it was the 60k speaker.
This is a major problem in high end audio. Another problem to ME, is that system matching IS so important. It's why you can't get a component of the month or year and put that with another and hope to have great sound. I own Vandy's as all know. In order for them to sound their best, they need a zero feedback amp. Not difficult to find anymore and not difficult to set up.
To ME, if you have to go nuts tuning any speaker, then why buy it? Why not just get a speaker that sounds great to you with a bunch of different amps. If a speaker is good, it will show the difference in anything in your chain. It's not a difficult thing. This is how we get into folks having to justify their sale or purchase. As I've always said, if you love them, that's awesome. Not saying that in a gratuitous way either. That's from the heart man as it's all about the music and enjoyment.
I must have gobs of micro and macro detail. I want to hear it all, but I need to listen for hours on end and not just for an hour. I usually don't need more than a half hour with a speaker to know it's not my cup of tea, but I do need much more time to know if it is THE cup of tea (hope that makes sense).
It's all good, but some are calling some speakers softer, but that shows they either havent' heard that speaker, or that they are so different than folks who have. Just sayin....... |
Santa, that's my point. We all like different things in a speaker. Some overlook hot and or bright thinking they are highly detailed and if they 'stage' great or have another positive thing, they love them...until they grow tired and get the next most talked about speaker (or amp or DAC).
Bottom line is that it's all good. I always caution friends who are getting into higher end audio, to beware. Dealers know what tracks they can play on a system to make it sound 'best'. They will always stay away from tracks that won't sound good due to the compromises that said designers have to make. Kind of like going to the store to buy a new top end TV, but they are all turned to their brightest setting where they will look their best for a half hour or so. Good luck watching at that setting all day long, lol...... |
Why would any manufacture give 20% off an expensive speaker and ruin it for those who purchase in good faith at list? |
contuzzi286 posts02-24-2019 3:56pmCtsooner: it’s a trade in program where you trade in your old speakers. And most dealers will give 10-15% off normally anyway. No one is upset about it aside from you. There’s nothing unusual about something being on a promotion. Every single industry does it.
Where did I say I was upset over it? Just asked a question. I'm happy for those who are getting great discounts, but to me it devalues the products. They should just price them fairly to begin with. Plenty of companies (in audio) don't allow dealers to discount and won't offer promotions. I've seen dealers loose lines over this. |
I know that Gryphon will stop a dealer from selling their gear if they discount it. I know that most will only buy 'discounted' gear. In the end, that's what the real price of the gear is. 20% off gear is a lot for a company to give. It's very rare that any high end company to offer that type of discount from the company.
What I have read you can trade in any speaker regardless of brand or size will get you 20%. That's 20% off the MSRP and to ME devalues the product. I"m happy for those who get great deals on audio. Enjoy the music!! :).
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Thanks Dave. My own personal thoughts are that I'd never buy from a company that does this on a regular basis unless I got that same type of discount when they weren't running a promo. Why would you want to take that kind of a loss?
I know they do it, but I never felt it was good business for those paying full or close to full price as many do. I have a local dealer (as you know) who is a great guy. I've even purchased a pair of Paradigms from him years ago, but it was at 30% off. Daughter likes them for her parties at college as she blasts them lol. |
Guys, these are just my personal feelings and it's not a big deal unless you paid more than 80% of the price of the speakers, lol. We can move on from this I'm sure. |
Interesting read. One of the most polarizing speakers I've kept up on in recent memory. Lot's of parallels with the older Wilson's (when David was in charge and his team used that metal dome tweeter) that everyone always claimed need the perfect electronics and cables.
Just very interesting. |
I think most rational folks are with Trudat on this one. If a speaker is so temperamental that they only sound good on a handful of products and you have to spend that much more on cable, cords and isolation devices, then something is not a great buy in audio IMHO. Too many other great choices that will give awesome sound for much less and is easier to set up (cheaper).
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I love the Belles stuff. For SS gear Belles is at a great price point and punch high. Aesthetix gear is like that too in the Tube range (that new integrated is a game changer for tube gear in that price range).
The new Ayre 8 Series stuff is just unbelievable for the cost. Real meat on the bones and plenty of the Ayre micro and macro detail.
Sorry to go on, but this is some of the new stuff I've really liked a ton. The Ayre stuff is sick if you go afford it even withe a stretch.
Heard the Persona 9's again at a dealer who has them set up in a great room and with top gear. They sounded the best I've ever heard them sound. They are still way too top heavy for my tastes, but I see why many like them. |
Steve, this is one reason why we should rely on brick and mortar guys. Even guys who sell out of their homes, like AT does. It's important that we know what goes good together. Most folks listen blindly to what folks tell them and chase their tails. They aren't confident in their own ears or they aren't out listening to a lot of other gear. When I go to audition for real, I use a paper and pen either during or afterwards. I make copious notes as I can't remember if I don't. use the same recordings that you personally bring in. That way you can make notes about the same portions and then you will at least be closer than if you go by memory.
The best dealers I know as well as the top audio companies who I know well say the same things about system building.
Both ends are equally important. The end product will only play what it's fed and how it's fed. As good a source as you can buy is best. Then the second for me is the preamp. It's not a control unit. It's the heart of the sound. Most speakers will scale pretty high, so you can go a line lower if needed in order to get the best pre you can afford...Then it's the speaker and last the amp. Teh cables etc... aren't for fine tuning IMHO. They are the last part of the process (and important), but you can have a great system with mid level cables and cords if you have to.
If you need to 'fine tune' with cables, then you've done something wrong in putting the system together.
Again, it's my opinion. If you are close to AT, then go to the other stores in NJ as well as some in NYC. You will figure out who you like best as well as what you like best. If there is a speaker that you fall in love with, don't think it will sound just as good if you use the lesser pre or amp or source. It won't adn you may not be happy adn will chase the tail.
All just my opinion of course. |
Bottom line is that it's still all a system and needs to be chosen as a system. Regardless if you chose a speaker or source first, you need to set a legit budget and figure out where to spend it.
I have spent a lot of time with a few high end manufacturers recently and they all said the same thing. A good line of speakers will scale. Way too many people purchase a speaker that is one above what they probably need and don't have the budget for the better source which is where it all starts. Preamp is next in the electronics jungle and then amp.
Begin with the most you can afford and then end with the best your budget will allow, but make sure you have enough for a great pre and then amp.
If you like Vandersteen, Magico, Wilson, B&W, ML, Maggies or whatever, then go with that line, but if you are going to spend a lot more on one part of the chain, do it at the source is what most are saying. Most folks don't get to hear the lower price in the line with better source and maybe even a step up in electronics (over what they would be left to afford if they buy the next speaker up in a line).
AT, I agree with your speaker thoughts for the most part. That said, I was at a dealer last week who had Wilson Alexia's in a small bedroom and they sounded incredible. Overkill? Of course, but with the door open it didn't even have a standing wave problem. Had a pair of large ML's in another bedroom and I was shocked at how good it sounded. It just proved that you can get great sound with varying size speakers in most listening rooms if you set them up properly. He did it to prove a point. |
AT, you are very wrong about VAndy guys not liking some of the Rockport speakers. I've heard the Personas many many times with great gear. They are tipped up on the high end and even dealers who sell many have said the same. That's the sound that you are selling and many are buying and enjoying. There' room for everyone.
That said, someone I know has a pair of Rockport Lyra's paired with over 400k worth of source, electronics, cords, cables etc... They sounded very inviting with the reel to reel. They weren't fatiguing in teh way the Persona's are to MY ears. Do I still like Vandersteen's Sub Nine system with his own amps? Yes, I do especially when paired with the Ayre KXR preamp or the Audio Research pre or the D'Agastino pre.
What you have to realize is that many of us enjoy a specific speaker line or two, but can still enjoy a different flavor of sound. I just don't like things that fatigue me and hurt my ears (not picking on the Paradigm's, just that type of sound in general). Heck, I love the Harbeth's. Can enjoy them all day long, but they don't do many things that I need on a daily basis when spending this kind of money. JMHO |
Contuzzi,
I feel strongly that you are way off base. We all hear differently and therefore enjoy different speakers and gear.
I get sick of hearing about terrible sets up, poor sounding rooms etc... I've heard them set up in very good to poor rooms and always with good gear from all of the top manufacturers. I hear a fatiguing speaker as do many listeners and lot's of them don't ever post on Internet boards. Even a few of their dealers feel the same way privately, but Paradigm is a larger company who does extensive marketing so they sell a lot of it.
I'm also not competing with anything or anyone. When the grandiose claims kept being made by a dealer who posts on anything he sells (the boards are his main source of advertising), I called him out. I then even went to said dealers home where he sells his gear and hear the same sound. He made claims of his gear not being set up properly, because of a photo shoot the night before. Maybe it was, or maybe not. Either way the other guy I was with disliked them more than I did for the same reasons most of us have shared. Sorry, not an industry guy as I'm friends with many and that includes some folks at Paradigm.
No one is looking for, nor needing your pity. We've heard them set up properly and they aren't our cup of tea. Nothing wrong with that and it's not even a knock on them.
BTW, I have owned JM Lab speakers back in the day and just sold them a few years ago. I also have owned a few pair of Paradigm speakers and subs over the years. One set is with my daughter and they are perfect for what she uses them for. I got my brother to purchase a full audio/video surround set up with the older Paradigm's. I've helped many of my friends set up system with them as they like them. Maybe that makes me a Paradigm home or 'industry' guy. I just don't like the new offerings for MY ears. |
Troy, you constantly try to poke holes in so many who feel they are tipped up adn fatiguing regardless of upstream equipment.
You sell them so of course you are going to make excuses. I went to your place to hear them with Jeff (RIP buddy) and no matter what you played with them, they were terrible, pure and simple. Then came the excuses of how you didn't have them set up properly, because you had a photo shoot etc.. Then it was your DAC wasn't fully burned in and then it was the dog ate the homework.
Jeff and I both left quickly when you put on the Legacy speakers and you constantly moved them to try and position them properly while we were listening. We both said to each other that the 9H's and the Legacy's sounded the same as they have at other places we heard them regardless of how you had them set up.
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No problems at all. Jeff and I didn't always agree on things we heard. We liked some of the same gear, but not all. Both of us know what we heard with the 9H's and have heard at others places.
This is now the first time you have brought up the tone control issue. Didn't even realize the pre had tone controls.
Maybe you told Jeff not to come, but I never got that message as I wouldn't have bothered if I had know in advance.
Those speakers have sounded the same in every room I've heard them in. It's their house sound and if you are into that, it's awesome. This is why we have different flavor speakers and gear.
You sell them and like them, or like the fact they sell (most probably both). That's fine. MANY of us find them very bright regardless of what you play them with and in what room.
Again, not a big deal. |
Guys, there are tons of trolls on the boards. It's what many boards have turned into. A few of the dealers who post are also pretty much trolls. They use the boards to further their business/finances. Again, contuzzi, why does it matter?
It's still up to readers to make up their own minds. I don't let things like boards bother me too much. I've been irritated over the years by some (mostly my sports boards), but overall, it's still a fun place for me to hang out. I often cant' get out of the housed due to my MS, so this is a fun place to read and sometimes post. It's all good as long as folks are mean spirited or rude to others. |
Contuzzi, it's his right. We all have products that we own, or enjoy that we use as a reference since we are familiar with them.
I do think that listeners need to really LISTEN and stop taking anything we all discuss on a board as the be all end of of their purchases. One of the main things that the Persona fans talk about constantly is their need for proper component matching. Heck, that's fair for most speakers and why some are now making their own electronics.
Got to see Richard Vandersteen this weekend and he said ONE thing that stuck out more than anything. It's something I was taught as a kid by a great store owner. Bring 5 albums (or downloads) that you listen to and know. My 5 are always male vocal, female vocal, acoustic bass, piano and something 70's rock (where they really rode the board for radio and not hi fi playback (it needs a lot of help, lol). |
only you can be the judge of that. Many find the Persona to be a bit bright and fatiguing and others love them. Anytime you get that type of response from a speaker you must listen to it with you gear. Even dealers who post on them say they have to be set up perfectly and you need great gear that has synergy as well as a room that is tuned properly in order for them to sound really good. I’ve heard the series and they aren’t my cup of tea. We all hear differently. Can you audition anywhere?
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what's your price range Milk? That's important to know ;). Do you like a true neutral sound or do you like a speaker that can be tilted in the upper end a bit? |
The problem many of us have with the Persona's are the highs. They are tipped up a bit when measured properly. This will allow them to artificially sound more open maybe, but they are fatiguing to many, but not all.
this is why you must audition in your room. I'd personally never spend a dime on a speaker without auditioning it, but that's me. I also don't buy speakers that often and when I do, it's usually to upgrade within the same company. I've only owned Proac and Vandersteen's since the 1990's (for my main system). I've owned JM Labs (now known as Focal) in a bedroom system and loved them. I also have owned Paradigms for another den system and enjoyed them with their top sub in the day, but they weren't bright teh way I find their newer speaker designs. I have had many folks bring speakers to the house to audition over the years, but nothing so far has me changing from my Steen's.
Rooms are important, but if you find a speaker to bright in a store, it will most probably not be that much better in your room (although it's amazing what a room will do to sound, lol). Conversely it also won't change the sound of a dull speaker either and there are plenty of those on teh market too as there are plenty who like that sound.
We are all sensitive to different things and I find most listeners audition and try to hear what they are told to listen for by dealers who are trying to sell their speakers. That's fine. I personally have always trusted my own ears. I also take away the remote from anyone I am listening with so no one gooses the volume etc...
I personally found years ago that I like the time and phase correct designs best as long as they are implemented properly. There have been only a few designers who make their speakers this way as it's not easy and it's not cheap to do it. The original Thiels, Meadowlark, Vandersteen and Dunleavy and Green Mountain Audio are some. I think Maggies and Emminent Technologies are also time and phase correct. They have to be first order in order for this to be true. Wilson and others may claim they are, but they aren't.
JMHO... |
