I'm beginning to poke around and gather opinions and information about a "super speaker" to replace my aging Thiel 2.4s. I like the idea of bass dsp room correction and I am a bit of a point source type imaging nut (thus the Thiels). So among other choices I've been looking at the Paradigm Persona series specifically the powered 9H with room correction for the bass. However I'm skeptical of the "lenses" i.e. pierced metal covers on the midrange and tweeter specifically because of Paradigm's claim that such screens "screen out" "out of phase" musical information. The technology in the design seems superlative but I just can't get past the claim re out of phase information and the midrange and tweeter covers. What could possibly be the science behind this claim? It just seems like its putting a halloween moustache on the mona lisa given the fact that the company is generally a technology driven company.
Gene Isoacoustics makes adapters that work with the Persona we have both are 3F and the 9H with the footers and each set made a signifigent improvement in the sound.
Contuzzi the footers absolutely make a difference on all loudspeakers including very inert ones.
The footers stop side to side motion and cordinate the speakers with the movement of the cones in that plane only.
Isoacoustics website shows testing documentation which proves the product does indeed work.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Isoacoustics and Persona dealers
Nabcs, the issue with Townshend is that they would be very difficult to demo there are very few Townshend dealers in the USA vs Isoacoustics which are much easier to demo also the Townshend are way more expensive than $1,200.00 for both speakers for the Isoacoustics aren't they?
Which one is more effective we don't know, the Isoacoustics stuff is great and we have yet to have a client ever not comment that they heard a meaningfull difference after getting a set.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Isoacoustics and Persona dealers
Those of you who have paired SET electronics with the 9H, is tube rush an issue for you? The reason I'm asking is that oddly there was NO audible tube rush when running my Aesthetix Janus or my Aesthetix Calypso (yes I have both) yet with the 9H, there is very audible tube rush at about 3 feet away from the speaker or closer. To be frank it doesn't really bother me but its is very curious to me that when I switch in the Thiel 2.4's theres NO audible tube rush. Any thoughts?
Yes, there is some noise from the speakers, but nothing too serious. Personas 9Hs at 96db sensitivity, I think it is inevitable. At the other hand, Thiel CS2.4 at 87db and 4 ohm impedance, are not the most obvious choice for a SET Amp IMO.
With regard to the idea of an isolation platform I would also just point out that I'm not sure it would be desirable to raise the height of the speaker. At my seated position my ears about 3'6" from the floor whereas the Paradigm tweeter is already significantly higher than that at about 4"1" above floor level. That's not a problem due to the tweeter's dispersion characteristics but I'm not sure you really want to raise the level of those drivers any higher.
I have Persona Bs in both of my apartments. One pair being driven by a Cambridge CXR-200 and the other being driven by a Lyngdorf MP-50 with a Burmester (soon to be Plinius Reference A 300) amp.
One of my favorite things about the Personas is the detail and dynamics it retains at lower listening levels in both setups. I have excellent hearing (tested) and wish to retain it as I age.
I've owned high end tapped horns which were the most dynamic speakers I've had and the Persona's rival them but with sharper detail and attack.
I've heard the 3f and the 9H at the Audio Doctor as well. The Personas are truly special speakers, almost spooky how detailed and holographic they can sound. People liking a warm house sound need not apply however.
I went with the Persona B's because of my small spaces and also I am a sub guy all of the way.
***btw, I did not buy my Personas from the Audio Doctor but I did buy my Polymer Audio speakers from them - the best speakers I've owned. It's too bad they are packed away now due to not going with my living room decor. As this is my first post on this forum I don't want anyone thinking I'm shilling.
I agree on the high resolution at lower volumes in addition to moderate volume levels and the holographic sound stage but I did find that the latter was a little problematic to achieve. My experience was that only a very small of toe in provides the necessary separation but when you get it right you do get very good image localization but its tricky. I have my own theory about it but I imagine it involves the dispersion characteristics of the speaker and I'm also wondering if that's what's troubling me a tiny bit. I also think it would be less of a problem the farther you can get these speakers away from side wall reflections. They might sound best along a long wall in a LARGE rectangular room, with only slight toe-in....my suspicion is that's what would make them really sing. I do have a wierd room, not that it's small but its got an elevator shaft coming up into the room offset from the side wall (with a stairwell between the elevator and that side of the house). You guys that have them that love them, whats your experience in dialing them in...distance ratios between speakers and then speaker to listening position, how much toe-in, etc? What did you find works for you?
How do the Persona owners have their jumpers set up? Speakers cables on the mids or the bass? I am going to play around this weekend and see if their is an appreciable difference on the 5f’s
Post your findings. The review of the personas all come with high praises yet always a disclaimer attached. I could swing a pair of 9h during the sale, but it would pretty much end my shopping days forever more. That my room can make most every speaker I bring home sound like a eunuch makes these appealing, but soo much money for a speaker that requires such precision to work as intended doesn't sound like a good choice for someone who can't afford to get it wrong.
steve59 we have a $7,500.00 integrated amp which includes a dac which drives the 9H to perfection. It is a tube amp.
This amplifier is one of the best we have found for an affordable solution to making the Personas have that bit of warmth that will make them sound alive and just gives them that extra dose of tube body that the speakers crave.
The 9H isn't that hard to get right in a room at all. The 3F, 5F, and B are a little harder. Nothing unusual though. Not sure what pwhinson is talking about. He also said that they can sound bright on classical recordings but nothing else, which makes no sense at all, and makes me question his set up abilities.
@contuzzi, Classical music has alot of metallic shrill sustained high frequency information particularly during loud complex orchestral crescendos that I don’t find present to the same degree in the tiny bit of jazz I listen to. Those are the only two "types" of music I listen to. Those instruments in classical music actually should sound shrill normally but when the speakers overemphasize that part of the frequency spectrum it becomes a problem with that music. I don’t notice it that much with other music I listen to, i.e. various types of jazz but jazz makes maybe 10% of what listen to, and classical 90%. With regard to my "positioning ability" I did and do find them a bit tricky and requiring nowhere near Paradigm's recommended toe-in in my room to get good focus on individual instruments and voices. I would guess less toe-in also helps mitigate the brightness. When I run the ARC room correction on these speakers I also set the high pass filter at the 350 hz setting and increase the overall level of the bass 1.5db and that helps warm them up a little bit. There’s no question that the speakers in my space are incredibly holographic. Still there’s an aspect of the sound on classical that I would say is more clinical than romantic/involving. And can we give ad hominem criticism a rest folks and just talk about our experience with the speakers? Your experience may be different than mine...that’s not only fine, it’s why I started the thread.
Can anyone expound a bit on what the "vibration-cancelling" rear bass drivers are doing beside working for an inert cabinet which doesn't resonate and color the sound? Is that all they're doing?
My dealer, i've probably said this already, could probably make my logitech speakers sound stunning so i'm not surprised I didn't find the 3f or 7f bright. detailed and extended for sure. I also wonder about the credibility of reviewers and if their reviews deserve all the respect they're givin. The lenses might be nothing more than liability protection from children licking the BE drivers? they don't seem to harm the sound and if I had an extra $10k laying around I would have already bought my pair. anybody
I disagree. In the concert hall I've never heard massed violins playing fortissimo sound shrill. But I do hear that on a number of recordings and through a number of speakers. Early DGG digital recordings are particularly guilty of this. I've never found a metal domed tweeter that completely avoided this--the beryllium that Salk uses came close, the different one used by Fritz even closer. Needless to say, recording+speaker effects can be cumultative. Long live soft domes!
1) I love the sound of an orchestra live - it’s never shrill even though there’s a lot of high frequency information. 2) one set of my speakers has a metal dome tweeter and I’ll never make that mistake again. I can’t tame it no matter what changes to electronics and cables I’ve made. Metal and tweeters are a bad combination in my experience. 3) early DGG - heck most any recording by Deutsche Grammophone is nearly unlistenable. It’s too bad because there were some really great performances that were very poorly recorded. I have a recording of Mahler’s 5th by DG that is so unbelieavably bad, it’s a wonder they ever released it. Do those guys actually listen to these things when mastering? Maybe the tweeters were blown out in the mastering room. It was a gift from my dad, or I would have returned it!
I used to be in the camp that a tweeter didn't even have to be auditioned to know how it sounded based solely on the material of the dome, but I listen first now because i've been proven wrong a few times. listening to speakers that sounded so good I couldn't even guess which driver a particular note was coming from let alone guess the material of the tweeter dome. I suppose the less radical the design the easier, safer, path to good sound, but speakers like these may have the potential to surpass them all, if you know what you're doing.
@pwhinson can you let me know what tracks you found “bright” on the 9H? Preferably stuff on Tidal or Qobuz. I didn’t mean to be disrespectful or insulting and I apologize for doing so. I’d like to hear which songs in particular you feel are bright.
The rear bass drivers based on their design are vibration cancelling by working in concert with the front drivers.
The purpose of them is to provide additonal bass output and to vent the rear bass wave around the rear of the speakers to better allow for the correction curve to work optimally.
@audiotroy Thanks. Since that rear wave is out of phase with forward facing wave (am I correct on that?), I did wonder whether that rear wave is cancelling out bass waves that make their way to the rear of the cabinet creating a cardioid dispersion characteristic which you see some manufacturer's attempting. Could that be at work also? Paradigm oddly doesn't say much about it other than describing the rear drivers as "vibration cancelling."
@contuzzi Really just about any large scale orchestral music recorded on BIS with large amount of brass. The brass should be shrill but not so shrill that they no longer sound natural....since I'm in a concert hall at least twice a month with a real symphony orchestra playing standard repertoire I know what live performance sounds like (to me anyway YMMV), and although there's a definite shrill sheen to brass that borders on a speaker that pumps up that level by 4-5 db is going to make those peaks sound TOO metallic and too etched. I DO believe the Personas do that because its what I hear but using only about 5-10 degrees of toe in does help mitigate it somewhat. Still when it happens it doesn't sound "right" to me because it doesn't sound like the brass sound live in a concert hall.
Enjoying the 9Hs today doing some experimenting with different amps. Specifically the Prima Luna Duologue Integrated which I find too muddy in the midrange as an integrated, however when I feed the HT passthrough on that amplifier with a different tubed preamp, its a different story, opening up the midrange nicely. Tubes may be the answer here. I had been running my beloved Aesthetix preamps, feeding that to the Pass, and still just getting too much clinical detail on classical music. Running the PL as the poweramp and setting it for either triode mode or ultralinear...both sound extremely good and both I think are rolling off the highs a bit which with these speakers may be a good thing. I also have a Woo Audio W2 lying around usually doing headphone duty for my Beyerdynamic Tesla headphones but that little puppy can also be used as a simply little OTL preamp (there’s a switch on the back for converting it from headphone use to preamp use). So for the past hour I’ve been listening to the WA2 feeding the power amp portion of the Prima Luna preamp and getting good results. Next I’ll try using the WA2 as a preamp feed the Pass X150.8. I have found that even subtle changes in the system (and these are not subtle) have very observable results one way or the other once again pointing to the fact that these are very highly resolving speakers. Another 9H user has been posting he's had good luck with SET amps (fairly powerful for SET) driving the 9H's really well, such as the Line Magnetic integrated.
Good to read that you are continuing to experiment with the 9H loudspeakers. Did you ever figure out that electronic digital glare/sound during playback? Happy Listening!
you should also look at cabling, and power conditioning what about room tuning any treatments? Can you post pictures of your setup?
What cables are you using? Are you using power cables? Are you using power conditioning? Vibration isolation can also make a huge improvment.
As we have said time and time before the Personas are very rewarding loudspeakers when used with the right stuff.
We have a client using the Persona 9H with the T+A HV series integrated amplifier and we did a comparison of his Steinway playing a piece vs the system reproducing the same piece, the system was very close to the sound of the the live piano.
@jafant, there is a sense with regard to the "digital" sound I was experiencing that sounded like I was getting more of the reflected sound the microphones were picking up than the direct sound on orchestral works during quiet portions. I don't know if that's part of the frequency response aberrations of this speaker (all speakers have them) or if its simply higher resolving than my Thiels which are quite (as you know) highly resolving themselves. Right now I'm listening using a Woo Audio WA2 as a preamp and it really gets us 80% there in terms of bringing that midrange forward a bit and getting rid of that glare/excess of reflected sound (I'm not sure how else to describe it). Its a great sound. Unfortunately its not really practical for me to use the WA2 as a preamp because it has no remote and I'm also having to use single ended interconnects and I'm getting a tiny bit of hum...not sure if its a ground loop or not...I may trip to lift the ground on one or more components as an experiment. I really think the system deserves a better preamp. I could try rolling in a couple of NOS 12AX7s into the Aesthetix preamps to see if that would warm the Aesthetix gear up a bit (that would only cost me a couple hundred dollars). The Aesthetix uses solid state rectification I believe, probably a high quality HEXFRED type circuit. I'm also going to switch in a Prima Luna preamp and see if that equals or betters the WA2 (it should)...the Prima Luna has tube rectification and generally speaking I think tube rectification on a tube preamp sounds better than SS rectification based on what I'm experiencing now and in the past.
Just purchased an Accuphase E650 for my Personas....works very well....lots of power for the mids and tweeters, and the powered woofers take care of themselves....very smooth.
In the end, after two listening sessions, I was pretty sure that I would find the 3Fs fatiguing in long listening sessions. What was intriguing was the way I could hear the wood and bow of the viola in one of my audition tracks. But in my own listening the Harbeths were even more revealing, with a much less fatiguing sound, solid bass and a stunningly realistic sound of voice and small ensembles. So Harbeths it is for me.
Much Thanks! for the follow up. I believe that your system has plenty of warmth and the mid-range was perfect ( not too forward nor too recessed). I will say that the 9H throws a larger mid-range to my ears. Happy Listening!
I couldn’t convince myself to buy the 9h even at the sale prices. Instead I bought a used pair of DSP8000’s. The correction available from the speakers is limited in comparison to what the 9h offers, but is clearly useful and the more popular user adjustable speakers become hopefully the more available and cheaper. Not set and forgot, but adjusting on the fly for different recordings is really easy to get used to and I hope paradigm extends arc to more models
So I decided to give up on the Persona 9Hs and they're going back. I do think alot of technology went into this speaker and I think part of the problem might be my room. They certainly do alot of things right but I just found myself having to do too much to accommodate what I felt were flaws in the speaker and it never sounded quite right on large orchestral music which is the vast bulk of what I listen to. I'm going with Magnepan 20.7s.
Pwinson, the Maggies have an entirely different set of issues.
The Personas do require the right matching equipment and some care in setup, it is entirely possible that your room and matching gear wasn't right.
We had some trade in Maggie's here and they suffer from a number of different issues:
1: The soundstage is big but very diffusive 2: Image size if too large for smaller ensemble groups and singers the Maggies make the people appear too large 2: Dynamics aren't very good 3: Bass response isn't that tight and deep and matching with subwoofers doesnt eleviate the dynamics issues unless you roll off the bass to the panel. 4: They don't play that loud 5: They are very inefficient.
Get a pair of Kef Blades they are less bright then the Personas and a bit more forgiving, the midrange is spot on for classical, they have fanastic punchy bass, and they play loud.
Ask Brownsf and his threads we tuned for him a set of Ref 5 and he is 99% classical and his system sounds spot on like you are in front of a large orchestra.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Kef, Paradigm Persona dealers
Thanks for the advice but I've had Magnepans before so I'm aware that you give up a little in pin-point imaging and get slightly more diffuse images of individual instruments. I think the 20.7 and 30.7s are different animals when it comes to bass though. Its tight and deep. And I'm surprised that the image localization is frankly very very good. So the 20.7s and 30.7s are in a different ballpark I believe than previous Magnepans. They also will play sustained 95 db peaks/brief peaks to 105db, which is as loud as I will ever want them to play, and thats with a Pass 150.8. I thought I would need to go to the 250.8 but Kent at Pass said he thought the 150.8 would be fine. On the loudest peaks occasionally I get a needle on the front panel at 12 o'clock on the 150.8 but as Kent explained the amp even them is pretty much loafing along and the amp won't clip until it hits the hard right stop at about 4 o'clock. I think the Pass is helping with image localization on these speakers and is a good match. I haven't yet tried the other amp I have on them (the Aesthetix Atlas). So I'm a happy camper.
We can understand why you like the Maggies, they are much softer in the midrange, and present a much bigger overall size of image.
Personally we have been through the panel world with Quads, and Maggies and they never sounded as realistic as the best dynamic loudspeakers to us.
Do love the Maggie ribbon tweeter. You would have loved the Kef Blades which are very realistic sounding without the upper octave issues that require careful matching with the Personas.
The good thing is the big Maggies do sound wonderful for big orchesteral works.
Best speakers ever for this kind of music Scaena Line arrays, except they cost $60k.
I heard the Kef Reference 5s at Dave’s with the tracks above, and I agree they give a very solid large orchestra presentation, and a lovely chamber music image as well.
Partly for reasons of size, they aren’t going in my LR. The Harbeths don’t quite do the scale of the Kefs, but I felt they were a bit more revealing of instrument timbre. I also thought they were better at low volume. And I will have some placement options in my apartment.
I had Maggies years ago. The image unsteadiness frustrated me, not to mention the obvious degradation problems with cats and sunshine.
Nice score! on the Magnepan 20.7 loudspeakers. Keep us posted here as you massage these speakers into your room and existing system. I would be interested to learn how much DSP is needed compared to the 9H model? Also, are you still experiencing that digital artifact/glare as previously reported?
Yes Ahofer, the Kef Ref 5 did sound very realistic, you could have gotten the smaller Ref 3 same sound but smaller in size.
The difference between the two setups you heard is totally different electronics a tube preamp and a solid state amp is going to sound totally different than the integrated amplifier we demoed.
Was hoping you would swing back and then once we zeroed in on the speakers then we would have explored the range of electronics we have which includes one of the best tube preamplifiers ever made the Manly 300b preamp with a suitable matching amplifier.
The digital artifact is gone. I also retubed the Aesthetix Janus tube preamp with NOS RCAs from Vintage Tube Services (high recommended) which helped alot. I still believe that the Personas were simply passing along whatever was in the signal...they are that revealing and neutral. I could never make those work in my room....because I’m easily able to pull the Maggies 5 feet into the room and still put my listening position at 12 feet I’m getting a really good smooth response from the Maggies. They measure in room slightly lumpy without dsp but I would only add some very light dsp bringing down the peaks, not punching anything up but to be honest with you they sound so good without EQ that I’m likely not to do any DSP on them. I think their dispersion pattern being more a line source (figure 8 dispersion pattern) keeps the room effects down. I have alot of depth in the room but only about 2’ on either side of the Maggies. I really do think part of problem with the Personas was their wide dispersion characteristics but problem may go deeper than that. I really respected the engineering and the build quality of the Personas. With the Maggies there is a sense of tremendous coherency across the range...the drivers blend absolutely beautifully.
It seems to me that differences in speakers swamp differences in amps, and introducing the even order harmonics from high end tube amps is a difficult and indirect way to try to EQ a speaker into sounding more natural. I'm listening to an entirely solid state signal path now (Mahler 2nd Symphony) and it does not seem harsh in the least.
pwhinson...There was definitely some incompatibility with the your room/equipment and the Personas 9H. My room has a huge problem at 40 Hz and the DSP Arc in Persona solves that nod perfectly. The upper octave is very even without any digital artifact (in my ears) but I know my Triode 845 and Ayon DAC helps a lot!
Nabcs we just put out an Innous Statement the difference in musicality is huge with the Persona 9H yes this is an expensive servers just shy of $14k however once you hear one you will not believe that digital can sound this much like analog.
And yes your Triode 845 and Ayon Dac do help, from our experience the Personas need a warm sounding matching of gear to bring some additonal warmth to the sound.
The Personas do not hold anything back so if you are looking for transparency and holographic imaging, tight deep bass a touch dry, the speakers are magical.
We have spent two years tweaking our 9H demo after trying out many different electronics packages, cables, power conditioners and digital front ends till we created some real magic with the 9h.
As we said the addition of the Statement has taken the sound of the Personas into a completely different level of sound quality.
It is hard to believe that a computer server can alter the sound this much the Statement is a quantum leap over anything we have tested.
The soundstage is bigger, there is a sense of flow that is super impressive, and notes have much greater sense of sustain, the bass is better, sometimes it is spooky how realistic singers can sound.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona and Innous dealers
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