@pindac I have original CL-P3D plinth that I would like to use; in the future I will always have time to use diy plinths for the other Victor TT's I own that have remained on standby for the little time I have to dedicate to them.
One turntable with two arms, or two turntables with one each - which would you prefer?
Which would you prefer, if budget allowed: one turntable with two tonearms or two turntables with one each? What would your decision criteria be?
And the corollary: one phono preamp with multiple inputs or two phono preamps?
Assume a fixed budget, but for the purposes of this question, the budget is up to the responder. Admittedly for this type of setup, there will be a sizeable investment once all components of the chain are factored in.
I'm curious to hear how people would decide for themselves the answer to this question. Or maybe you've already made this decision - what do you like about your decision or what would you differently next time?
Cheers.
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e@best-groove The TT 801 is one of the TT's I feel extremely confident would benefit from a Densified Wood Plinth, this material lends itself to Bespoke Design as well. If not commenced with the purchasing of materials for your project, the D'fied Wood is a material worthy of investigating for its properties for this type of application.
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If you enjoy the “art” of turntables and tonearms go for many. I did that at one time and had 4 TT’s and 5 tonearms. I enjoyed the mechanisms of different arms and experiencing the sound differences of different turntables. But later I scaled down to one TT with two arms for my main system. One with a stereo cart and the other with mono. I play a lot of mono Jazz lp’s and love the way it sounds on my mono setup. Have fun |
I've been looking at the Acoustand tonearm pods, which would let me add a second arm to one or both my SME Model 10 tables. I have a spare SME M10 arm, and could get an M2-9 for a fourth arm. My phono amp supports up to five inputs. I know, it's crazy, but just imagine having four cartridges on the go at once! Talk about spoiled for choice. |
I have two tables set up at the moment and a couple more that...well anyway. One of mine is stereo and the other is mono, which if you have room for it and the need is the most convenient option IMHO. Two arms on one TT is awkward for me to use because the arm along the back is difficult for me to reach/use/cue. That is me. I use one phono stage with two inputs and two SUTs. Part of that is just due to practical considerations of space and money. To the issue of need, as a jazz collector, at least in my case, a lot of my records are mono. I mono cartridge definitely outperforms a switch on the preamp and having a mono rig hooked up and ready to go at all times is a life saver as fas as I am concerned. |
It would be great to hear the thoughts of users of Densified Wood or Panzerholz, especially to be informed where they feel the merits of adopting the material has been detected. I will start by inferring there is strong suggestion being determined that an improvement is produced, resulting from how transferred energies are managed, where a notable difference for the better, is undoubtedly detected. In all experiences I have had of Panzerholz in use, there is a noticeable reduction of a distortion/coloration being presented through the speaker.
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Actually it is. Many of us run two arms on our Michell Gyro and Orbe SE's...
I find Panzerholz very easy to work with. Sharp tools and lower Rpms. It machines very well. Its not hard to work with but it is hard on bits and blades due to the resins thus the need for lower rpm and less agressive use of tools to prevent the resins from burning onto the blades or bits used. |
The Link will help with introducing information, that will supply a broader knowledge of D’fied Woods and show that densifying wood has been an evolving practice for nearly 100 years. Page 37, shows the Brands that are produced across the Glode, in my humble view, it is these Types of production, when produced to this standard and using the Adhesive Selected, that are the most beneficial to be used for a HiFi Set Up. Kaiser Speakers use P’holz for their Cabinets and refer to it as Tank Wood, there is a Article on this Company, that has a very good description of the valued properties available from P'holz. Other Speaker Brands and Kits are also utilising P'holz and Permali as well. https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1347640/FULLTEXT01.pdf |
@pindac Very nice. Is the sub-plinth beneath the main plinth, or is it a plinth within a plinth? Mine is 6 layers and sits on Townshend pods, but I might build a sub-plinth if I go for a second round.
One thing that decreased my cost importing the Panzerholz was having panels pre-cut and shipped in boxes as opposed to whole sheets that would have required a pallet. I will look into the others you mentioned as well. |
@au_lait I am quite familiar with Panzerholz and Permali, I have some very nice P'mali Boards and am fortunate to have purchased a supply oof P'holz with a friend who has CNC Produced a P'holz Plinth for both of our SP10 Mk II's. I have listened to the SP10 Mk II in a P'holz Plinth for a few years now, at another friends, and this past weekend on Saturday, was demonstrated one of the CNC Cut Plinths produced for the SP10 MK II, for the first time in my friend's system since it was exchanged from a Marine Plywood Plinth. The P'holz Plinth has been mounted on to a P'holz Sub Plinth to create a Two Teir Support Structure. My comments on the last occasion I visited, when a Marine Plywood Plinth was in use; was based around detecting a detractor, of which the fundamental cause was suggested to be from the Cabinet Speakers. I was awarding the Speakers Cabinet as causing coloration. This Time around, I was very quick to make it known the same Speakers were quite transparent and getting a fix on their placement was now much more difficult, the coloration that was suggested as being present in the speaker's had seemingly disappeared. A set of Electrostatics were also put to use, and the Cabinets and ESL's were seemingly with parity when it came down to Transparency. One other point of interest is that on a very well-known Album, I was confident that the replay on this occasion, was delivering information, I had not detected before when replayed on a selection of systems. The change of Plinth Material in this case has had a notable effect at managing a distortion that can be passed through a Styli, and manifest downstream at the Speaker. I can't help but think the Sub Plinth has been instrumental in assisting with the additional detail being detected in a replay. As a P'holz Sub Plinth has proved quite a valuable addition to other equipment used at demonstrations prior to Saturday's Visit. I know the cost of receiving Panzerholz outside of Continental Europe can be quite prohibitive. Permali is a Densified Wood that is a little easier to find, maybe the licensing for the product is eased. In general, I encourage a search for Densified Wood as most Countries produce their own Brands, that all share very similar properties, it seems the weight for Overseas Shipping seems to be restrictive, hence the home-produced material. The Dymond Wood is found in a Board and is found in many colours, this might appeal to a would-be Plinth Builder.
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@pindac Try Panzerholz. You can order from their Canadian distributor BK Industrial. About $1000 for enough to build a plinth. Very difficult to work with, but I managed to complete a 2-arm plinth for my Technics SP-10 MK3. |
It has been difficult to suggest a Densified Wood to be considered for use in the USA as there are not too many Brands able to be found. Thanks to the TV Series 'Forged in Fire', I have seen a material used that captured my curiosity and have now discovered the correct name for the material that somebody who is developing a curiosity for a Densified Wood might like to look at. My searching for Diamond Wood, has commonly not found the wood type I was looking for. A different approach has found Dymond Wood. This is more like it, a Birch Wood Veneer Board, that begins as a 2 Inch assembly of Layer and is compressed to a 1 Inch finished product with a plastic resin type of adhesive. The description is very in keeping with the Wood Type I am an advocate of. The properties that make it more akin is the Weight I have a Dymond Wood at approx' 1300Kg per Cubic Metre, which is undoubtedly a Densified Wood. The Compressive Strength and stability when submerged in water is very attractive, this material is extremely stable and will not expand or yield in any usage for HiFi. You could make a plinth large enough to use a M4 Sherman as a Tonearm and it will be the ideal Plinth Material. Hopefully the info' will be of use to a forum member for their own trials to commence. |
I wouldn’t go near the delicate TT101 (I chose the TT81), however, Halcro, member here did, went thru all to achieve perfection, then proved that the DD motor was able to maintain perfect speed when 1/2/3 arms were simultaneously playing.
I went with the conventional vintage JVC Victor Plinth, he made custom and separate pods for his 3 arms. And, dust cover??? one of the reasons I stayed with the JVC design. |
I have two tables, one is a SOTA Cosmos Eclipse with a SME V, so a 1 arm 1 table combo. With a suspended deck its really not possible to run two arms on it. The second table is a Scheu Analog Das Laufwerk No2 which is an 85 pound non-suspended deck with two Dynavector DV505 arms on it. No suspension issues, so it is suitable for two arms.
The phono stage is an Esoteric E-03 that allows for two separate inputs and each side has cartridge loading options. With this arrangement I can compare two cartridges with the same arms (Dynavector) and same phono stage, along with the same drive unit (Scheu)
However my typical arrangement is using an Ortofon MC2000 on one Dynavector arm and the T2000 transformer into a Graham Slee Accession phono stage. The second arm gets a casual listening cartridge like an Ortofon MC3000 I have into one input on the Esoteric. The SOTA has a Transfiguration Audio Proteus on the SME and goes into the other input of the Esoteric. But with little difficulty, aided by the fact that the Dynavectors have removable headshells I can set things up for cartridge comparisons on an even playing field with little difficulty.
But I did toy with the possibility of one good table. Locally there is a Walker Proscenium available. If I sold most of my analog stuff off I could afford it. But I am not sure where I would put the air pump, and now that Lloyd is passed not sure how to get it serviced if need be, and I think the gold trim on the arm is ugly. Besides I have my doubts how much better it can be versus my SOTA. I am not willing to risk everything to find out the answer to that question. |
I have looked into Kuzma Design TT's, and the discoveries made are in keeping with the Design and Materials for a Bearing Assembly of which I am an advocate. The Kuzma selection of materials is also similar when compared to selections that other Third-Party Bearing producers are offering as an upgrade for Vintage TT's. From my experience these types of materials when in use are able to bring a new presentation that is a noticeable improvement. I have discussed this in previous posts and see no point to elaborate in the Subject. From my end, if an intention is to make a change to a Set Up, with the intention to achieve an improved performance from a Vinyl Source, keeping the focus closer to home, and looking into how an interfaces can be improved, can prove to be quite valuable. I have the pleasure of being regularly demonstrated a Standalone Pod Mounted Glanz 12 Inch arm, with a Miyajima Cart', used on a SP10R on regular occasion, it never fails to impress. Isolation that functions as a support, has little to do with maintaining the critical geometry between Tonearm and Bearing Spindle. I am not aware where there are claims that the Spring Suspension has the additional function of managing energies transferred through a Plinth as a result of the TT's operation. A Spring Support needs to be adequate as a support to ensure a Platter can maintain a Level Set Up and needs to be effective at reducing the ambient energies that are able to be transferred into the system during operation. In general, the energies needing to be dealt with are not known, as the methods required to accurately measure the presence, is not in use with the average TT user. The familiarization with different materials and assemblies for a Plinth Construction is the only method I have adopted and used to make my own assessment. Most materials chosen as a Plinth Material have poor Damping Properties and inefficient dissipation. It is not possible to ensure an individual that if they adopted a Plinth Material that does have desirable damping properties and efficient dissipation, that they will perceive it as an improved experience. It is an individual's preference for a certain type of SQ that will dictate this. I am now feeling confident that after having experienced a reasonable quantity of Plinth Construction, that the use of Densified Wood Material as a Plinth is the best method for myself.
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@pindac I had no problem with my VPI 19-4 for vibration relief-it has springs and rubber feet. I almost gave back my VPI TNT VI because it's feet are next to worthless for isolation, even sitting on a heavy steel stand with 50/50 sand/shot filling. I immediately purchased the Townshend seismic sink and placed the VPI on top of a 1.25" thick HDF board. I used a large weight to balance the table. It's works great for 16 years now. If I could afford to, I would replace it with a Kronos Sparta table. |
One turntable with one arm. But my arm is the Simon Yorke Aeroarm that is an air-bearing parallel tracker. Alternative moving carriages (arms) can each be ptr-set up with a cartridge and swapped out in a couple of minutes - only need to slide the carriage on the bearing rod and disconnect and reconnect air-line and signal plug. Best of both worlds, and parallel tracking too. State of the art for ultra low-mass MC carts up to 10g such as vdH Colibri and Ortofon A95, both 6g. |
Learning is ''function of time''. Only Kantians possess knowledge a priori.. I first learned that Kuzma Stabi Reference is ''the TT to own''. The same was the case with ASR Basis Exlusive. The later with two idendical but separate phono-pres. The afterwards dilemma was: ''what now?'' I wrote to Vidmantas the owner/desigener by Reed with the question about possiility for an second arm ON an TT with ''only one''. He ''invented'' for me an armpod + 12 '' tonearm. |
When considering producing a TT that will support a Tonearm/Tonearms of choice. There is the likelihood that a Custom Design Plinth will be selected for the role. The additional consideration will be the material selected to be used to produce the Plinth. There are many options from a Singular Material through to a Composite, and then there is the Quantity of Tiers of materials and the configuration of the Tiers used to produce the structure. Each Custom-Built Plinth can have an impact on the SQ, for the better or worse, also one Plinth Design has the capability to allow a certain Tonearm Type to perform for the better and another Tonearm Design can be negatively affected. It is basically down to how a Tonearm mechanically couples with energies transferred through the Plinth. Alternatively, there is the option to use a Standalone Pod/ Pods to mount Tonearm/ Tonearms on. My experience has been to limit myself to the use of One Tonearm only. This has been the practice for many years with fixed headshell designs. Today, I use a Tonearm with a detachable headshell, which has made the ease of experiencing Cartridges much simpler to achieve. Additionally, as I am involved in a social activity with HiFi, the Cart’ mounted on a Detachable Headshell is an easy and secure transport to a home with a similar mount method on a used Tonearm. As for a Multi Input Phonostage I had the option of this when I had my Valve Phon’ built, the builder had a Phon’ of almost identical design to my one, with a Four Input Option. I chose not to go for this method, as I am happy to use different owned Phon’s, to add a something different to a presentation. I feel today this has been the better choice for myself. I have been a user of Bespoke Plinth on various TT, I prefer a design that rigidly couples the Tonearm to the Plinth, on my own designs, no Base Plates are used. My first Bespoke Plinth has been produced from Slabs of Granite, that the final configuration added up to being a 9 Stone Granite Plinth, which was used to mount a Garrard 401 with a SME IV. This after many years usage was swapped for a PTP Solid 9 with a Audiomod’s Series Five Micrometer, mounted on a Lamination of Corian, which is a Composite Stone, again quite a heavy assembly. I have used lighter Plinths, where Lead Metal is used with Plywood/Chipboard on Laminate Plinths. The most recent plinth material learnt off and one that is to be used, which is another lightweight design, is Densified Wood. This is a material that has been able to make a very good impression when used with the same TT and Tonearm I am using. I had first moved over to Light Weight Plinth Designs using a compressed 1-inch Plywood Board as Plinth, with a weight of approx’ 900Kg per m3. It is reported that the Plywood that has an increased compression has a useful Damping Factor and has good dissipation properties, all scientific explanation can be found at Qualia Labs web page. The introduction to an alternative 1-Inch Plywood Board Material and one that has made the most positive impression, is from a material that is approx’ 1400Kg per m3. This is probably the densest of the Densified Wood to be found today. For myself, the experiences of past have evolved to the preferred order, which is to have one Tonearm, with easy to exchange Cartridge Options, hence a removable headshell. The rigidity of the Coupling of the Headshell is of importance, and a loose bog-standard connection can create a SQ issue. The TT and Tonearm interface is as important a consideration as the other coupling connections being made but is the one that will most likely be the hardest to acquire valuable direction on. Note: many TT > Tonearm Couplings are produced using a Material that can have changing properties throughout the seasons, to the point where an interfaces critical dimension point is compromised. Materials that are stable and influence the maintaining of the Set-Up Geometry are desirable. Phon’s are easy to exchange and having the option to have increased experiences of a Phon’ is an attractor, one Input suffices for my needs. I have worked with and sought out demonstrations of others work using different Plinth Materials and configurations for a structure for many years. Recent learning has shown there is a material available, that is able to make a very positive impression and to myself has become an attractor. I have experience of seeing others migrate to densified wood plinths; some who have been quite set in their commitment to their earlier plinth designs in use, their curiosity about this material and introducing it to their set up, proved to be a correct choice. I have been demonstrated a Densified Wood in use as a Plinth on various occasions. On one occasion, with same Model TT’s. One with Densified Wood as a Plinth and the other using a Marine Plywood. The result being the Densified Wood has left a very positive impression, which has been encouraging to the point I have acquired my own material. It has been used as a Sub Plinth to date, which has also proven to create a positive impression. The owner of the Marine Plywood Plinth referred to now has a Densified Wood Plinth and is without doubt the improvement has been very noticeable. I have a Plinth produced from this material but am not at present able to use it on my system.
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I have a VPI 19-4 modded for 78 rpm play and a VPI TNT VI for LPs. It is just easier to switch from one table to the other since the 78 player requires an equalization preamp whereas the LP play is RIAA flat in my system with a separate phono pre-amp. I'm sure I could obtain better 78 rpm play with a better table and arm but it sounds great the way it is. Plus, I already owned the VPI 19 from 1982. |
As a professional audio reviewer, I have had to set up three different systems to best match what ever component comes in for review, depending on price point and specifications. I have three turntables, all VPI: VPI HW40, VPI HRX and VPI Aries 2. The latter two have three arms with different cartridges (two are mono-only). The reason I have been with this brand for more than 20 years is that their tables are easy to set up, not fussy, and just plain work--an important consideration on a day to day basis. As for the Dullgrin's basic question, I would recommend that those coming to LP playback for the first time, focus on getting the best turntable/arm/cartridge for their money. Fortunately, there are now many reasonably priced tables and cartridges that yield excellent performance. While reading reviews of such equipment is a good place to start, the ideal would be to go to a bricks-and-mortar store and check out these components yourself with assistance from a knowledgeable salesperson. |
One tt with two arms is perhaps more economical. One platter, one motor, one motor controller, one footprint, etc. And this scenario also allows for a mono and stereo cartridge, both with precise positioning/tuning. (Single arms with multiple headshells and bayonet mounting, or multiple unipivot wands do not offer this.) Not to mention compliance matching limitations between cartridge and tonearm choices. My Brinkmann Balance achieves this nicely. But I also have an AVID Acutus SP that I just can’t seem to part with. I love the ease of set up, that it will hold its set up, virtually forever, and it’s still punches way above its class imho. And just love the way it looks, a beautiful industrial design. So this second turntable and third tonearm offers the opportunity for experimenting with other cartridge ideas while maintaining a rock solid mono and stereo set up with no fuss. All of this runs through a Aesthetix Rhea Signature phonostage that accommodates the three separate inputs. Again, one piece allowing multiple functionality. It’s nice to have choices. But to each their own. It’s all good. |
wmorrow I've seen Steve at VAS change his beloved Uni-Pivot arms on his VPI. It seems easy, until .... change arm: pull out mini-din connector from the VPI junction box: that mini-din connector now dangling from delicate tonearm wires. Simply lift arm up, put down in safe location. Pick up spare arm from safe location, with alternate cartridge pre-mounted, pre-aligned. Place on the arm base spike, plug in it's mini-din connector. NOW, cartridge body height might be different, reset VTA as you mentioned. Cartridge weight likely different, it's recommended tracking force probably different, and thus anti-skate should be re-adjusted. VPI arms used to skip anti-skate, they said "put a twist in the wire" from tonearm to junction box (oh that's precise), then they started making aftermarket anti-skate devices, VPI now offers them
I have changed arms on my friend's Technics B500 base, no delicate wires involved. Changing a headshell with pre-aligned cartridge, then the same VTA/Tracking Force/Anti-Skate is needed. Second or 3rd arms, very carefully aligned, ready to go is much preferred if alternate cartridges are used. A true Mono cartridge DOES make a difference, slight or a lot, varies |
@noromance Brian, you are very kind. Hopefully you are enjoying the warm glow of tubes in great health. Perhaps i shall return in some depth…after close of fishing….. perhaps…. Jim |
@thekong I don't have a multi-armed TT, but it sure seems like the unused arms could pick up airborne vibrations and transmit them to the plinth. I always wondered why this is rarely, if ever, discussed. |
IMHO a silly question, unless you are rolling in money. The best way to go is, one of the best turntables you can afford and one of the best arms you can afford with one of the best cartridges you can afford. Do not buy two fair set ups at the expense of one excellent one. If you have to spend some time setting up cartridges, so be it. You are cheap labor. There are usually limits in terms of space so, two arms on one turntable is the most space effective and also the above argument still holds, one great table vs two not so great tables. |
Interesting topic! I have a related question for anyone who has mounted more than one arm on a TT.
One of my friends is using a Transrotor TT which is capable of accepting 2 arms. He claims that just mounting a second arm would degrade the sound quality of the first arm. Another friend with a Micro 3000 also claims the weight of the second and third arm would affect the sound quality of the first arm. I am curious of how could that happen, maybe due to the change of weight distribution or the resonance point?
Any member has similar experience? |
@dover Now that's the solution! |
@lewm … “I think that makes me —- crazy”. 👍👍👍👍. I mean, it’s OK… most folks think the amount of money I put into my system is crazy… although… three or more hours of listening a day… and the enjoyment I get, seems well worth it. If having many TT and cartridges makes you happy. |
I prefer having 2 turntables and two arms over one TT 2 arms. Why, because when I had multiple arms on one turntable I wiped out my Koetsu reaching over the back of the TT to lower the arm. On the second TT I have a tonearm with headshell so it is easy to swap cartridges. My main TT is my reference which I like to keep with best arm & cartridge.
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Thanks everyone. It's cool to read everyone's take on the question. I don't know how to answer the question for myself - yet, at least. The reason I'd be interested in having a second setup is that I love the idea of having setups optimized for different sonic signatures, but don't really want to deal with resetting vta, vtf, etc. every time I change cartridges. As I've thought about it off and on throughout the day, and read others' responses, I've honed in on a couple questions I need to answer for myself: do I really need a mono cart (same situation here @dogberry) and/or do I want both a suspended and non-suspended table for variety? I've only ever lived with non-suspended tables and am curious about suspended tables, lately. In any case, I fully agree on the importance of a good phono stage. I'd be inclined to go with a single phono stage with multiple inputs, and get variety from table/tonearm/cartridge combos. @noromance, I checked out your system. Great solution for vinyl storage! I'm getting too old to crawl around on the floor trying to read spines. |
In Use, things evolve: I have a lot of Jazz LP's, many Mono LP's. There is nothing as easy as having a Mono cartridge ready (mounted, aligned, azimuth/overhang/vta/tracking/anti-skate) all set to go, play some Oscar Peterson Stereo, up comes a mono LP, switch arms, select arm C on the SUT, change the Mode on the preamp to Mono (or just a single speaker), then back to arm A or B for Stereo. Original Idea: I had 2 arms, mono in the back. I was selling LP's, giving them a farewell listen. I realized I was wearing out my MC Stylus when I could have been using a MM with a replaceable stylus. That's when I added the 3rd arm, left side backwards for Mono, rear for MM or MC (mine and friends cartridges we listen to); right long arm favorite MC, fixed. |
https://www.kuzma.si/stabi-r-world-premiere-munchen-2018.html Kuzma Stabi R can accept up to 4 arms |
