As Stated within this Thread, I have no desire to return to a Mass Plinth Material as my regular used Plinth for the TT of choice.
It has been made known within this thread from the time (which is 20+ Years ago) that I chose Granite as a Plinth Material; I had been demonstrated around this time both Granite and Slate as a Plinth Material with a same TT model mounted.
Granite was preferred over Slate and that was the route I went down, I even made it known that the personalities demonstrating Granite, might also have been a factor in my decision being made. (It is all too distant and not able to be accurately recollected, the only realness is, I chose a Granite Plinth for a Garrard 401, and shortly after had a SME IV purchased to use with it, and possibly a High Output MC ??).
As stated within this Thread, I have a very heavy Slab of Slate, enough for Plinths for Two TT's or a Multi Arm Design, I have no desire to have a Mass Plinth in use for my chosen TT any longer, so this as an option is buried.
As stated within the Thread I own a Mass Plinth, being Corian, but the TT it is used with is superseded and is used for demonstration purposes only of an Idler Drive TT.
Along with the above I have also heard a few produced Polybentonite Resin structures formed to function as a Plinth Design on a few different TT's, this is a Mass Plinth and measures favourably to Panzerholz for Damping but dissipates quite differently. The Polybentonite Resin Plinths are similar to recollections of other Mass Materials used for a Plinth. To my sensitivities I detect a colouration present not dissimilar to a Cabinet Speaker Colouration, for myself this has become quite unattractive when detected, to the point of feeling something present is overbearing.
Panzerholz as a Plinth material is not an idea that comes from myself, I was introduced to it, and was impressed, on follow up encounters that impression grew, as my recognising the attractive properties on offer during a replay were being proportionally attributed to the P'holz. An extended period of experiencing it and having seen others 'deny it' and then 'adopt it' has affirmed to myself, there is a New Plinth Material I am needing to introduce.
For me it is the airiness and unconstrained flow, the ease the presentation takes on, and the clarity that is very attractive perceptions to be encountered.
As stated within this Thread, I have a Plinth produced from P'holz, that is out on loan to those who owning a TT that suits the design and can mount their TT on to it.
If their Tonearm of choice is not able to be mounted the offer is available to assist with enabling the individual expressing an interest to hear their TT in a P'holz plinth.
There is not a penny for myself to make from such an offer, it is just an extension of the social activities I engage in with HiFi and other enthusiasts, either known or not known to myself. This is something I would not consider for any other Plinth Material, but for some reason the P'holz material is seemingly worthy.
The only reason I can see, why Plinth Materials are presented as a subject within this Thread, is because a design for Two Tonearms might require a New Plinth to be produced, so an individual contemplating this is to be aware of the options on materials. Indirectly a user of a Typical TT > Tonearm set up, might become curious as to how different materials as a support for a TT > Tonearm might impact on their set up. Plenty of us are from that background, so no need to discourage it.
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I have a table with 2 arms (feikert blackbird, Kuzma 4pt and schick 9,6. Koetsu Onyx on the Kuzma arm, Ortofon SPU grand royal on the Schick. I also have a Rega P8 with Hana Umami Red. Phonostage is Manley steelhead so I can plug all 3 in at once. I really like them all. If you have the room, I say the more the merrier. I find a time and place for all of these sounds coming from these setups. Yes the Kuzma/Koestsu is the best but I still have a lot of fun listening to the others and get a different sound and vibe from them. I would have more turntables if space was no issue. I think probably 2 turntables is more fun than one with 2 arms. Get tables you can add an arm to and maybe you can end up with 4 arms!
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I am not in anyway meaning to denigrate Panzerholz, but the prior discussion centered in many cases on "hardness" not just of Panzerholz but of other materials mentioned. And I wondered why. Seems to me that hardness is concomitant with the necessary characteristics of a good plinth material but is not THE reason why a material is good or bad for a plinth. Yes, a plinth ought to be good at dissipating energy put into it by the turntable chassis. By the same token, granite ought to be good too, but many (not including Pindac) have found it to be less good than other choices. Until now, I did not realize that Pindac had a favorable opinion of granite. For that matter, slate might seem to be a good choice, and it is what I chose back when slate was all the rage and OMA were selling slate plinths for a wide variety of turntables. (Given my contrarian nature, I created my plinths for the DP80, SP10 MK3, and Lenco "from scratch" but using professionals to do it the way I wanted. When I wrote about my slate adventure on line, OMA were not happy with me.) I am satisfied with the outcome, but I am not going to claim slate (Pennsylvania black variety) is the best choice. Around that time, Albert Porter was selling Panzerholz plinths for SP10s Mk2 and Mk3. I’m sure those are excellent too. It’s interesting to me that Panzerholz is good because it’s made by glue-ing together layers of material. Glue creates a boundary between layers. Energy arriving at the glue line would be partially reflected back and partially transferred across the boundary. I am guessing that because the whole is compressed under very high pressure, that potential issue is ameliorated. Another choice is concrete; I have used large square pavers from Home Depot as audio shelving. It works pretty well for that. Would be hard to conceive of making a plinth of it but fun to try.
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lewm,
It's not. Just stating the physical characteristic of Panzerholz. That characteristic produces very clean and crisp parts as oppossed to say plywood or MDF.
I would imagine that the hardness would contribute to the speed at which mechanical vibration travels throught the material (velocity).
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Why do we seem to think “hardness” is the most important criterion for a material used to build a plinth?
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I have a 75mm Thick 'Permali' Densified Wood Board.
I am familiar with Panzerholz produced with 25mm and 32mm Thickness Boards.
The individual from Qualia Lab's who has caarried out the Testing on a large selection of materials chosen as a Structure to be used within HiFi, has made it known on regular exchanges that a 10mm Thickness Panzerholz or Permali are able to deliver the ideal Damping and Dissipation properties for HiFi related purposes, especially in relation to what more commonly selected material are able to offer.
A very good friend used a 25mm P'holz Plinth for many years, and then had been able to source a Thicker 32mm Board.
This allowed for the 25mm Plinth to be compared to a 32mm P'holz Plinth, their assessment was the Bass and Air from a presentation was an improvement when using the 32mm material, the 32mm remains in use today, and I hear this whenever I visit.
Another individual used a 25mm P'holz Plinth naked and another which had a Material called Newplast added, each were able to use the same TT > Tonearm > Cart'.
After a long period of trials, the Newplast was removed, as it was said to have created an overdamped sound which was not as attractive as the Naked Material only.
I have moved away from Mass Material Plinths, as the Perception of being overdamped was noticeable, and not dissimilar to the presence detected when certain designs of a Cabinet Speaker are used. Either of these being detected is an unattractive presence I am not comfortable with, when it is detected during a replay.
There is only one method to discover if a Densified Wood is suitable to an individual as a Plinth or Sub Plinth, and that is to experience it in use.
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When routing Panzerholz carbine tooling is necessary. Not carbine tipped. It machines incredible well but you will go through some tooling as it is tough on. tooling.
Yes slowing Rpm down and using a low flute tool, so it does not gum up, helps tremendously , but nonetheless to get a high quality part it takes a certain skill set for sure.
Try performing locking miter joints on 25mm for speaker cabinet.
I took some samples of 25mm Panzerholz locking miter joint compared to 25mm Finnish Birch (Baltic Birch void free) doing the same locking miter joint to an audio show this year.
Every speaker manufacturer I showed it to they were impressed at the difference between the two materials and the locking miter joint.
You would think that the $40,000 and up speakers would use this joint and material, at least for front baffle. It takes veneer and paints incredible well.
We've made numerous 100 mm plinths and you will find yourself in very deep water quickly if you are not careful. The plinths you see using the Panzerholz do not machine from 100 mm. They instead use 25mm and cut four parts and glue them up. Glueing eliminates the structural integrity of the Panzerholz and yet this is how its done.
Even Kaiser speakers, if you read carefully their marking description carefully, use Panzerholz in bracing and other key areas. The speaker is not made entirely from Panzerholz.
Sorry if I got off topic from the point of this discussion.
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@dover
Perhaps you should learn to read before your stupidity and keyboard cowardice rise to the surface..
Panzerholz is a very hard surface resistant to impact quite significantly. How it machines is another story. This is what I said about it as far as working with it. Ive been working with it since the late seventies. However I think your density it would appear is far denser....
I find Panzerholz very easy to work with.
Sharp tools and lower Rpms. It machines
very well. Its not hard to work with but it is
hard on bits and blades due to the resins
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One turntable with two arms, or two turntables with one each - which would you prefer?
An Inquiry of this type is able to suggest that a New Plith is a requirement.
One turntable with two arms: This as a method has seen many Bespoke Built Designs to suit an individual's specific needs or wanted aesthetic.
or two turntables with one each: This can have various permutations, where one of them is for the use of Two TT's of the same design used with different Plinth Materials and the same Tonearm and Cart' used for both.
Either of the above, to suit one's specific needs, can require a Bespoke Plinth.
Plinth Materials are always going to surface when an Inquiry lends itself to potentially having to have Bespoke Equipment at hand to realise the method proposed.
@syntax Your statement is correct, My Granite Plinth which weighed in at 9 Stone, was produced as a design using professional services from a Stone Mason Company. There was no Middleman's mark-up, for the era it was produced, it was quite expensive, from recollection approaching £500, I'm sure another £500 was able to be added if Purchased through a Dealership.
When P'holz was in regular supply, it was approx' £150-200 for a Plinth Blank from an individual supplying Blanks, and even cheaper if sourced as an off cut through another source.
I would have selected P'holz over the Granite, if I knew what I do now, through the experiences of both in use.
Today I have selected P'holz for Plinth Purposes, over other owned Board Materials and other Structures available to me as a Plinth Material.
As said Sub Plinths in this material can be found selling at £1000, so sourcing and working with a Board of Densified Wood, if very cost effective.
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Panzerholz is a material like any other. It has it's uses in places which require good rigidity and high damping, like tonearm wands for low compliance cartridges and turntable motor boards. No magic, just engineering.
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@syntax
Why are you posting here - this is the thread for those who think a bit of floobydust and magic material will turn their Thorens 160, Garrard sp25, Teac into the best TT on the planet - bar none.
Some wag here thinks panzerholz is hard - on my CNC machine it is so soft it cuts like butter. Engineered quartz cuts like butter too - these materials are epoxy in reality.
But what do I know - I've machined, drilled, cut, tapped, CNC'd both.
Corian was trialled by a few TT guru's back in the 80's and never took off. Maybe this is for the baby boomers who want the 80's back along with their bell bottomed jeans and paisley Viyella shirts.
Now compare this to $16000 pounds for a phono cable from LFD that has a lovely electrostatic inducing plastic shroud, big chunky metal connectors so those micro wires know what a real man looks like and contains an assortment of different wires based on listening over 30 years, and of course they can voice them for you - you can have Freddy Mercury on helium, or Dolly Parton sound like Nat King Cole - now thats a real audio high end product.
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Who cares. Buy the one which is the best bargain
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In motorsports engineers do not like to try other things if what they have works.
We create our own densified wood to our specs. We consolidate it at a higher psi and are hold times are longer.
This makes it even more stiff and rigid.
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@duramax747 You have a very long experience with Densified Wood and have potentially seen it evolve to the production methods used today.
When I first started to learn about Densified Wood and the applications it is selected for, one memorable info' is that the development has now about a100 years of history.
I have no doubt, there is a noticeable value to be had from producing a Rack, I have seen owners with a 'stash', start using their Plinth Blanks as Sub Plinths after my introducing them to the positive effects of it combined with a P'holz Plinth.
As stated on previous occasions, it has really been an attractive addition with suspension footers under a few other TT's and Digital Source.
There are Companies asking for up to a £1000 for a P'holz Sub Plinth, even more if a swirly rebate is milled into it. I am confident my Water-Stained Blanks are as good; the surface markings have a real impact on SQ 😎.
You are fortunate to have a ready access to the materials, in the UK, P'holz has almost stopped being imported, at present a source of importer of a full board is not known. I may have been the last person to import a full board.
Have you any knowledge of Dynawood, as this is looking to be quite common in the US.
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I must admit I have not heard the Panzerholz warps. Thinner thicknesses can bow but I've never seen it warp.
We use it for professional motorsports and never had a part returned because it warp. We have been using densified wood for a few decades so have some experience.
We have racks of this material from 3mm-100mm and have used it in many applications.
Currently I'm building a three teir component rack with 40mm Panzerholz.
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One TT with one arm and one cart . Why complicate life. Enjoy the MUSIC. Good sounding music is enough, you done need perfect sounding music as there is no sich thing
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Corian is potentially the earliest form of a Composite Stone to be produced an available mainstream material, it has a Patent, and it is this Patent that is the fundamental guidance referenced to produce alternative Composite Stone products that followed.
It is hard to see how a 66% inclusion of Bauxite Stone with the rest as an Adhesive Resin, used in the mixture for Corian, disqualifies it from being termed as a Manufactured/Engineered Stone.
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I am also an owner of Manufactured Stone as a Plinth, which has the Brand Name Corian.
Corian is about 1/3 resin 2/3 mineral.
Engineered quartz stone is 95% quartz / 5% resin.
These materials are quite different. I would never describe corian as a manufactured stone.
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@dogberry It is not madness to have a plan in mind for Four Tonearms, it is a little unusual to have four in use consecutively, but definitely not unusual to own Four Tonearms and a selection of usable Cart's to match that number or more even.
I have owned and used approx' Nine Tonearms to get to the place I am today with a Tonearm.
Today with only one Tonearm in use, I still have a selection of Seven retained, along with LOMC, HOMC and MM Cart's, all with a usable number of hours left on a Stylus. I don't know how ageism may be affecting some through the time in storage.
As for the offer for the Permali, the offer is for a piece of the size that would be able to be turned into a Tonearm Pod, that by design, when finished will be able to be stored in a cupboard when not in use, or only be as intrusive as a Black Brass, if kept in use.
A Slab to not be accepted by SWMBO will be very expensive to send onto you.
I was given my own room without any dispute for the HiFi, it was like an approval to go off the scale with madness. To get the idea, the Power Amps are seated on a 250Kg slab of Granite. In the Room I would refer to that one as adventurous.
There are more quirks to be found.
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Very kind of you, John, but I shall decline. My two turntables sit atop a very heavy 17th century oak chest, which I have carefully levelled. I don't think a slab of anything, however good it is in the audio realm, will be acceptable to SWMBO.
I started out just trying to find a cartridge I could live with when my London Reference is finally done, and I ended up with a handful of rather nice carts and a second turntable! And now the madness proceeds towards four tonearms...
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@dogberry Both Natural and Manufactured Stone has been regularly seen in use as a Plinth Material for too many years, the Trend I recollect commenced in the 90's with the Garrard 401 being championed in a Company called Slate Audio's Slate Plinth. The Trend grew to other Decks and even Speaker Cabinets.
Not all can successfully Market Slate, hence new Natural Stone was becoming more mainstream, I chose Granite as my material, as I preferred the demonstrations of Granite on a 401, to those I had been to when Slate was demonstrated.
Being brutally honest, I may have even been more attracted to Granite as I preferred the individuals that were advocates of it for the purpose as a Plinth.
Within my HiFi Group, one member has a paraphernalia of ideas, why Slate is inferior to Granite as a Material to be used within HiFi.
I am not without Granite, I utilise it in plenty of places within my System, but mainly now as one of the materials used in an assembly of various Materials that functions as a Structure.
I am also an owner of Manufactured Stone as a Plinth, which has the Brand Name Corian. Again, this is another material I have chosen not to use as a regular choice, it is pretty much reserved for demonstration purposes.
My Friend who has recently converted to Densified Wood - Panzerholz, has a quantity of Corian in Slabs, as the P'holz has been capable of persuading them to rethink their previous thoughts on Plinth Materials, they are remaining curious, and are in the process of utilising the Corian, to try this material out as a comparison.
Lucky for me I will be able to hear this in use, on a TT and Tonearm of the same design I own. This will allow for Two Set Ups to be used of the same equipment mounted on two different Plinth Materials, additionally this will also allow me to have my Cart' used during a demonstration along with the Two standard Ortofon K'bs available.
If all seems worthwhile, I do believe the Kaneta Designs will be produced in both materials, to take the investigations further.
@dogberry In relation to your notification of your next venture to have a Standalone Tonearm Pod Produced, to be used with the SME 10 and SME M2-9 Tonearms.
I have no doubt the Headshell Design used on the M2-9 is a much-improved mechanical interface over any Products it Superseded from SME.
It does not matter one iota, who is pleased, you are the end listener, and you are the one making choices for how monies are used that leave your account.
I am sure you are to share in many hours of fun filled investigation when these arrive at your home. I sincerely hope there will certainly be a room full of music on a regular occasion.
If it is off interest, the answer does not have to be immediate. I can donate to you, to assist with having an extension of the experience of a Tonearm Pod, a piece of Densified Wood - Permali that is a 75mm (3 inch ) Thick Material, cut to a dimension that would suit having a Standalone Tonearm Pod produced from it.
Let me know, there is no rush.
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@dullgrin Thank You for a very fair assessment and your encouragement.
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Thanks for the interesting conversation, everyone. I've been reading with interest all the responses.
This thread, for me, was not so much a 'tell me what to do' or 'help me make a decision' type thread, more conversation starter, born of a genuine interest in how others approach their desired analog playback chain. I don't think there's any universal 'right' answer - just what works for each of us. It's interesting to see the responses.
I will say that my interest in the topic arose as I started to think about a second, all analog system. I've had a turntable in my system for at least 20 years, now, about as long as I've been in the audio hobby.
Over the last couple of weeks, I've assembled that second system - with the assistance of some great dealers and distributors. They're out there. Shout out to the teams at Kevalin Audio, Next Level HiFi, Bluebird and Nashville HiFi (no affiliation, just a happy customer - they all have been fantastic to work with and I think they're worth knowing about).
For now I've landed on one turntable and tonearm in my main system, and one in my second system. Neither of my current tables really has an option for a second tonearm, so I will look to add another table - maybe with two tonearms, maybe not - to the second system once my checkbook has recovered (!!!!). Adding a dedicated option for a mono cartridge in the second system is my next goal.
In any case, thanks for the responses all. Keep 'em coming. And happy spinning.
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@lewm With respect to granite, presumably the crystalline nature of rocks can affect their ability to resonate? All I know about them is to do with their abrasive qualities when lapped and used for honing straight razors. And now I shall be accused of going off topic again, so...
My plans for tonearm pods are underway. They will be made of brass rather than stainless steel, and black ceramic coated just for visual matching purposes. SME mounting plates on top, and three spikes underneath. The mounting plate will be precisely 90mm above the tips of the spikes, which is the same as the built in arm plates on the Model 10 tables. My next choice will not please everyone: I shall place a pair of SME M2-9 tonearms on them. These are pretty much like the 3009, but straight instead of curved, using 309 type headshells instead of the 3009 type, and have a damping trough. I have half a dozen 309-style headshells being one reason, and trust in the wisdom of Alastair Robertson-Aikman is another. It will probably be a couple of months for the machinist to finish the pods, so I'll have to be patient in the interim.
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maybe @dullgrin would like to make a further follow up contribution to confirm if the information offered since his last contribution, is satisfactory to help with the initial inquiry made.
" Nor do I fret about whether or not Panzerholz or some other material might sound better. "
The journey for myself through HiFi Encounters and building a HiFi System, is based on growing in experiences through being demonstrated different options that can be incorporated into an owned system.
I don't see myself as a lone entity in this understanding of a Journey with HiFi as the interest.
There is for me, a pursuit of knowledge, especially about how one is stimulated by the use of certain components or an assembly of certain components.
As one's experiences grow, they are quick to identify where a stimulus is present that is an attractor or a repellent.
As one's experiences grow, the likelihood is that there is a much more selective mind set in place, and a willingness to change prevails, the stimulus encountered can prove to be very persuasive. To the point an outright rejection of an idea or immersion into an idea takes precedent.
I am not one who is to Stagnate and be found Resting on One's Laurels, and especially not one who will Show Contempt Prior to Investigation.
There are tremendous discoveries to be made, when a mind is open to what others are doing, where differences are obvious to one's own choices.
It is with the open approach and willingness to learn that new discoveries have been very persuasive, bringing change, hence I was introduced to Plinths produced that were very different to my 'one time favoured' Mass Material Plinth Design. With the result being the Mass Material Design are no longer favoured and wanted to be used as the regular method.
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I have 3 turntables mounted in slate plinths, using Pennsylvania black slate. (I assume not all slate from all sources is created equal.) The quarry in PA that sold me the slabs also was able to hone both sides of each slab perfectly flat and champfer the edges. Then in York, PA, I found a waterjet company that "learned" to cut my 3 slate slabs so to fit respectively, my Denon DP80 (50mm thick), my Lenco with PTP top plate (50mm thick), and my SP10 Mk3 (75mm thick). In the case of the Mk3, the slate alone weighs about 75lbs, after cutting out the hole for the chassis. I had a subplinth made out of solid cherrywood, for the Mk3 only, and bolted that to the bottom side of the slate slab. I tell myself I can hear a tick better performance due to combining slate with cherrywood. This all sounds very good to me, but once having made the effort, I would not do it again. Nor do I fret about whether or not Panzerholz or some other material might sound better. Suffice to say I think all these materials are excellent choices. Slate is just the road I went down. I also agree, granite not a good choice; I don't really know what it is about the internal structure of granite that makes it less suitable than these other materials.
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One turntable with two arms, or two turntables with one each - which would you prefer?"
I said "original" question...thats it above.
Evolved or not the thread topic is multiple arms
or not for personal preference.
Now with the brilliant deduction that borinized
steel is harder than wood I suppose your back
on track...
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It is compared to boronized steel!
Panzerholz is not a "soft" material.
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"I'm curious to hear how people would decide for themselves the answer to this question. Or maybe you've already made this decision - what do you like about your decision or what would you differently next time? "
Cheers.
" Besides we're off track on the OPs
original question... "
There are those who not only like to have an option on how many Tonearms are mounted to work with one Turntable, but this can also be achieved through a design that is not offered by a TT's Manufacturer. It is achieved through an individual deciding on a Material to support the Turntable and Tonearm/Tonearms.
Hence P'holz has come into the discussion, as there has been earlier discussion on Bespoke Plinths being produced, to support the usage of Multiple Arms.
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Panzerholz is not a "soft" material.
Beech is chosen not for being waterproof ,
but because it is one of the hardest woods
and with high rigidity. Whether or not panzerholz
is your preference to use through experience
or not is all fine but the lack of basic knowledge of
it from its ingrediants to why they are chosen seems to undermine the relevence of "opinions". Long wordy explanations of what is basicly constrained layering
wont change the way some hear and choose. The popularity of light weight Rega tables proves that.
I’m quite certain that a slab of panzerholz can dissipate
the energy of a turntables self noise and the music
playback in its environment . The foundation it sits
on is actually a seperate problem.
Solve that first , ....
Besides we're off track on the OPs
original question...
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I find it interesting that beech is used for making a resin impregnated wood. Beech has a reputation as being one of the most waterproof woods available - it used to be used for the construction of waterwheels at mills and is still used as handles for shaving brushes for that reason. No doubt the pressures used in the impregnation manage to overcome this resistance, but all the same, there are woods that would be far easier to impregnate.
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Firstly, I will make it known, I have a familiarity with the Garrard 401, used in Granite Plinth for a Long-Tem usage. Admittedly this TT has not been owned for approx’ 6 years, time flies.
Recently within my Group two consecutive session were arranged to be demonstrated Idler drives used on the same system. My PTP with a Corian Plinth was the first to make a show, which was mounted on a Sub Plinth using my P’holz Boards. The footer was a AT 616 under the Sub Plinth and the TT. The group had their revisit to an Idler Drive experience, and for the first time experienced one used in comparison to a SP10R.,
The second arrangement was to be given a demonstration of a Garrard 401. This was mounted onto a Compressed Bamboo Plinth, which for me was of interest as I know it is well liked Sub Plinth Material.
The Garrard was given a little better lore than the PTP, as it was mounted onto Two Sub Plinths made from P’holz with AT 616 Feet as the base footer and Sub Plinth Separator. The TT was seated onto Gaia Footers.
The TT had an Origin Live Illustrious with a Sumiko Pearwood Cart’. For the record, I have been introduced to the Tonearm and Cart’ on previous occasions and have been very impressed.
On this occasion in this environment and system, and drawing on recollections, resulting from the very positive impression made, I was to state, this use of the Garrard 401, to be the best performance I have heard from a one, and I have heard numerous over many years during the first decade of the new millennium.
I can’t tell you the Spec for the Bamboo Board used a Plinth, the Spec for the P’holz used is known.
I have investigated compressed Bamboo, and in general the Board is found if ’correctly compressed’ to be a weight of approx’ 700Kg per m3.
A newer to the Market Dense Bamboo - ’Tiger Bamboo’ is to be found at a weight of approx’ 1000Kg per m3.
None of these are plasticised through using Resins as a Densified Wood is.
In general Densified Woods are found at approx’ 1200Kg - 1500Kg per m3, of which P’holz falls in at around 1400Kg.
I have been a follower of the individual who may have put the information forward, that identified Densified Wood as an attractive material for Plinth Building Purposes. The Web Pages containing many useful comparisons to other materials and the criteria used for measuring a materials damping factor is to be seen at qualia.web.com
I have in the past discovered alternative materials of interest and sent in material samples to be tested by the producer of this Web Site.
From my understanding it is Densified Wood that is the most efficient at managing Transferred Energies, in a manner that will reduce the level of superfluous mechanical energies migrating to the point it reaches the Styli and impacts on the Signal Path.
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B25 was what I used.
The 40mm compressed bamboo ply I used was dead flat - really impressed with the quality and easy to refinish the surface if required. I used a 60ft bed CNC router used for yacht manufacturing and it knackered the cutter - its a tough material.
Very dead plinth the liveliness that the metal brings would be missed by some so balance is a key here. Its a valid point one must be wary of over deadening in this application where one surface meets another for preference.
or the deadness of Panzerholz could be missed.
My reference TT was specifically designed in the 70’s as an energy dissipation device.
The primary material used, SPZ, was a specially formulated engineering supermaterial, developed in the 1970’s in Japan for earthquake proofing buildings, that has superplasticity at room temperature - any vibration or energy between 10hz to 100hz entering the material disappears through grain sliding at a molecular level. It is no longer available - too expensive to produce.
The secondary material gunmetal is a high lead content naval bronze and was specifically chosen to encourage the transmission of unwanted energy from the arm to the SPZ slab with minimal backward reflection. Having a propagation speed of 2 materials close together improves damping ( sometimes referred to as bi-metallic damping ) and more importantly minimises backward reflection of energy at the material junction - in this case minimises backward reflection into the arm/stylus.
In layman’s terms the greater the disparity between 2 conjoint materials in terms of energy transfer and propagation speeds of any disturbances, the worse the damping and backward reflection is. Something to remember when you are combining different materials in a turntable structure.
Soft material like Panzerholz can absorb a lot of surplus energy, but at some stage that energy has to go somewhere, eventually the unwanted energy will be released in an.uncontrolled manner in terms of time - leading to a smearing of the leading edge in replay.
Ideally you really want a path to ground for the unwanted energy rather than a temporary sink.
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Beech B25 Panzerholz, are you talking about the same thing
"Never used these words - have no idea what you are referring to."
You said Panzerholz and that you used it and it warped.
I assumed then you knew enough about this product that you would know it comes in either B15 or B25. Either 15 layers of Beech veneer per 25 mm thick or 25 layers per 25 mm thick.
I reiterated the word beech as even in this thread others claim its birch wood.
Sorry, I would assume anyone familiar with the product would know exactly what I was refering to...apologies
As far as the panzer armboard being inferior to the gunmetal on a specific table. I can see that preference. Very dead plinth the liveliness that the metal brings would be missed by some so balance is a key here. Its a valid point one must be wary of over deadening in this application where one surface meets another for preference. As far as being out less than half a mm. Its sheet goods not d4s finished stock. For armboards some surface milling like any othe material be it aluminum , brass, stainless, ebony etc. etc...that would be a basic step.
Non of those materials come without the same variations in raw standard plate or bar uniformity.
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Beech B25 Panzerholz, are you talking about the same thing
Never used these words - have no idea what you are referring to.
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I find that Pz warps only when left unsealed. Is your experience otherwise? Thanks!
Yes. Panzerholz is hard to get in New Zealand.
I purchased from the importer, checked the flatness of the raw material and found the sheets were not dead flat.
Basically I had to laminate 2 pieces, choosing adjacent material and inverting one so that when I laminated the 2 pieces the warp was eliminated. We are talking half a mm across 12 inches, but for me thats too much - I want the arm and bearing to be precisely on the same plain. And I would not want to machine the material flat and disturb the surface - hence the lamination process seemed the best option for me to resolve the warp issue.
Soundwise used as an armboard it damped resonances very well compared to my usual gunmetal armbands. for example it worked well with my FR64S, but these results can be very much dependent on the turntable itself and how the armbands are terminated. For example on my reference TT the armboards are terminated with a 60kg SPZ ( superplastic zinc alloy ) plinth that is as dead as a dodo - on this specific TT the panzerholz armboard is inferior to the gunmetal.
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"Panzerholz is not stable -it can warp"
In all the years I have known of B25 Panzerholz ply ,
I have never seen anything even remotely to suggest
it is unstable or will warp. 25 mm and up in my experience is VERY stable to the point of being used
structuraly in many building applications . I have used
pieces removed from the base of massive machinery shipped in the late 70’s that were stored in the factory basement left leaning against a cold damp concrete floor in winter and hot humid in summer for almost 4 decades with zero warps or instability.
The layers of BEECH [its not birch] are layered between with the resins. The vacuum and compression leaves the Beech impermiated with the resins throughout. I simply cannot see any scenario in the home or shop that could cause an inch or more thickness of what is essentionly more phenolic resin than wood now warp or not be stable. Loft condos use it for self supporting stair structures. As far as sealing it, my experience tells me the edges seal themsevles when the blade heats and seals as it cuts. You can literaly polish it to a shine exactly as you would the paint on a car with a polishing compound.
Im with pindac on this claim in my experience for certain. Too many critical items are being made from it whom would not do so without data and reason to hang their shingle on.
Beech B25 Panzerholz, are you talking about the same thing. As my experience mirrors Pindacs and I know of no one elses whos doesn’t...Just know what Ive seen and experienced and never seen proof to refute it...
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Modern Densified Woods by their very design are produced to be a material which is low in conductivity and selected for its properties where it is resilient to change when submerged in water, the Spec's show minimum uptake following 24 Hours Submergence.
Drawing on my whole experience of P'holz from the long-time owners, who steered myself toward the material, through to the most recent owners I am in contact with. Where across the Group, thicknesses up to 32mm are in use.
The purchase guidance given has been to buy Cross Grain Construction in B25 with a minimum thickness of 25mm.
There is absolutely nothing made known to me to over many years of knowing P'holz users to suggest a Cross Grain Lamination Structure in B25 of a minimum of 25mm Thickness is showing a tendency to warp.
I have my own supply of P'holz for nearly 18 months now.
A P'holz Plinth Produced, that is not in my possession at present, it is out on loan to an owner of the same model TT, the Plinth is produced for.
Additionally, I have a batch of boards that are cut to a dimension of 400mm x 500mm, I have just put a steel rule across these, and can report there is nothing seen to be considered as a concern.
I am even familiar with a Standard Type Head shell design made from Cross Grain B25 P'holz that is now about six months old. I was handling a couple of the produced Items from a batch only a few weeks past. The Material to receive the Cart' is approx' 4-5mm in thickness, there certainly has not been any obvious signs of showing a deformation.
I have no concerns for the above production specification for a P'holz material.
There is another specification for P'holz, where it can be obtained with a Longitudinal Grain Structure. A board of this at a particular thickness might have a tendency to warp, but I am not familiar with boards created using this Grain Orientation on P'holz.
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I find that Pz warps only when left unsealed. Is your experience otherwise? Thanks!
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I have built several TT plinths - here are my observations
Panzerholz is not stable -it can warp and I would only use it in conjunction with another material that is dimensionally stable.
Granite - rings - no matter how thick.
Slate is ok, doesn't ring like granite due to its stratafied structure.
2 Materials that I have had very good results with are
Engineered Stone ( high quality euro ) 95% quartz. Relatively easy to cut, you can source it cheaply from kitchen bench manufacturers ( offcuts ). Some have CNC facilities which makes it a doddle.
Compressed high density Bamboo ply. It is 50% more dense than Maple, and dimensionally very stable. I use this with my modified Garrard 301 and the result is exceptional. Even my mate with a Kuzma M/4point combo was gobsmacked when he heard my modded Garrard 301 with my compressed bamboo ply/birch ply hybrid plinth - medium mass, rigid, inert.
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I have a very nice Slab of 30mm Thick Slate, that I purchased which would produce Two Plinths.
Since my moving away from Massey Plinths, I have not been motivated to use it, or concern myself with learning how it works in comparison to Granite or Corian.
A Granite Plinth has not been experienced for quite some time, and this was with a Garrard 401. The PTP Solid Nine is readily available mounted on Corian.
I only use the PTP now to introduce others to the Idler Drive system and do the odd comparison to show how the TT drives can produce different sonic signatures.
I see the PTP as a very successful method to be used on an Idler Drive system, and in fairness, it is possibly the best use of the amalgamation of a modern design meeting design from an olden era.
I am at present excited about an upcoming experience I will be introduced to.
I see the PTP Design and the Kaneta Design as both coming from a similar line of thought, which is to have the engine decoupled from it usual mounting and attached to a material that is much more suitable for the purpose.
I have been instrumental in presenting this design to individuals who are with the Skill Set in both machining and electronics to produce this design for the SP10 MkII.
The Kaneta Design produced from Densified Wood will be in place for myself to receive a demonstration very soon.
Additionally, it is to be produced to have a New Design Platter.
The Kaneta Design is flexible with Platters, which enables this version to be used with a variety of Platters, i.e, Original, Original Modified, New Design (Acetal with Increased Inertia and a Gunmetal Platter.
The Design is to enable up to Three Tonearms mounted of which one can be a 12" Inch design.
This one has been a long time in the waiting to experience, it is a whole new territory of investigation, and I am chuffed at the thought of it now coming to fruit.
There is also a great opportunity be made available, to compare Tonearms against each other, as within my Group, there are a selection of sought after Branded Tonearms and Bespoke Produce Designed Arms.
Even better is that there are MC Cart's of the same Brand/Models with similar hours that can be donated to get the most from the new experiences to be encountered.
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@pindac Have you tried slate? I have a 50mm Pennsylvania slate plinth under my rebuilt Garrard 401 with excellent results. interestingly, I tried granite and found it to sound quite poor.
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best groove
I nearly bought the hard to find JVC Victor CL-P3 Three arm-board plinth.
Luckily, the seller showed a ruler in the photos, and I realized: in order to get a 3rd removable arm board on the left, and not be too wide overall, they moved the main arm board on the right side closer to the TT by cutting the arm board into a curved shape.
Luckily I realized, my 12.5" long arm will not fit. My CL-P2 plinth main armboard is further away, allows my longer spindle to pivot length needed. I’m not sure what the longest arm a CL-P3 fits.
Victor's 7082 long arm is actually only 270 s/p and 12mm overhang: total effective length 282mm (11-1/8")
my blackbird needs 304mm s/p plus 13mm overhang: 317mm effective length (12.5")
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"Dogberry, what phono stage provides 5 pairs of phono inputs?"
Five inputs are available in the huge and delightful Musical Fidelity NuVistor Vinyl. It remembers what you have set for each one (each can be MM - with eight capacitative loading settings, or MC - with eight resistance loadings, +6dB or no - which helps to make the output similar such that by changing from one table/tonearm to another you don't have to dash to the pre-amp to alter the volume).
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2 turntables and a microphone for me.
Beck.
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No question, more is better. My sample of B25 is 19 layers of birch, 18 of phenolic in 19mm, right on spec.
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@terry9 A very welcome report, the benefits of use are once more shared.
I once offered a DIY Tonearm Builder a Blank of Permali to be used as a wand material, which was declined. You have seemingly worked out how to use it for this role to its best, with the attention to detail for the laminations.
There are only two other Densified Wood types, I am aware of that would offer more layers of laminations to P'holz B25, one is another Delignit Material and the other is referred to as Picowood. If I read the Spec' correct, I think the compression reduces the thickness of the uncompressed stack by 60%, so more layers are able to be used per given thickness of the end produced board.
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No harm in having a little surplus, when it comes to Vintage TT's.
It's a bit like land, 'they are not making in it anymore'.
Getting the time is crucial to getting the experimentation ventures put in place.
After encouragement to a semi-retired friend over a period of time, they have at present machined a Panzerholz Plinth, and have now used the P'holz to produce a design for a Kaneta Plinth Design, to be used with a surplus owned SP10 MkII.
The end design has been produced and allows for Three Tonearms to be used, of which one can also be a up to 12" inch.
The initial demonstrations/comparisons will be using 9" inch arms, of which one is to be a fixed Head shell Arm, i.e, the SME IV or Audiomods Series Five. There is also an Origin Live 'Illustrious' that might be made available. The fixed Head shell arm will be used in comparison, to the Kaneta Builders own Tonearm Design with a rare method used to produce a detachable Head shell. The third Tonearm Design is the Tonearm both me and the Kaneta Builder own and use, that in this build guise, has a conventional removable Head shell design, and not the most recent Head shell connection produced.
Awaiting their opportunity to be used with the arms, there are two Ortofon Kontrapunk B's in original build guise, that both share similar hours of usage and Two unique types of Bespoke Built Ortofon Kontrapunkt B's, with not too far apart hours of usage.
The original build K'b, has proven itself within the group of individuals I regular spend time with, to be a Cart' that can be extremely impressive through to underwhelming depending on the arm chosen.
One of the rebuilt K'bs to be used, has been used in a variety of demonstrations has been proven to make a very good account of itself.
The earliest talk on the structure of the investigations to be undertaken, will be to learn where the Tonearms are seemingly most noticeable at being effacious in their ability to not impart a sense of mechanical impediment when in use.
For myself, the sense that a Tonearms mechanical function is not having an effect on the replay being presented is a real attractor and a desirable trait.
I personally removed the SME IV and Audiomods out of regular use, for the reason, there was a sense of there being an impediment to the mechanical function being detected. It will be good to revisit this old experience/influence and see, 'what is', in the comparisons taking place.
The method chosen for the demonstration/comparisons will have the beneficial advantage of having little time delay between the demonstration and assessments.
The Tonearm interface with the 'Standard Built K'bs' and the 'Derivative K'b Versions', will certainly be very carefully assessed to see where the attractive and less attractive presentation is to be found.
This will keep a Group of assessors busy for a reasonable period and might also entice other Tonearms to be offered for the assessments to extend.
There has been Talk of Trying out different continuous length wand wires, for a later down the line comparison session when much more is understood.
One Turntable with Three Arms for this type of venture seems quite fitting, Three identical Cart's would be the icing on the Cake, but 'hey ho'.
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Dogberry, what phono stage provides 5 pairs of phono inputs?
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@pindac I use Panzerholz quite a bit. My DIY air bearing turntable uses a platter board made of Pz topped with carbon composite. Dead as a tomb - and quite unnecessary as the air bearing produces no noise whatsoever (it’s air in all 3 dimensions). So that was an unnecessary expense but it looks pretty fine.
The motor board is where a massive slab of Pz really makes a difference. It’s one of several measures to reduce motor noise, and that is down to the noise of the sleeve bearings in a low power precision motor. I've tested that and can demonstrate.
I also use Pz in my DIY air bearing tonearm wand. The cartridge has a very low compliance and couples nicely with a heavy, resonance-resisting wand. What works best is to have the Pz layers perpendicular to the axis of the wand, so that there are hundreds of birch / phenolic boundaries between the stylus and the air bushing.
DIY forever!
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