Old SS amps

 I have 3 power amps, 2 vintage and a newer one. I like my old Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amp. Sounds as good as anything newer IMO. Could do with larger power supply caps and and more reliable output transistors. But for that investment it would well worth it. 400 watt amplifiers are insanely expensive now.

I bought a gently used B&K ST-202 power amp in the early '90s. That thing worked perfectly from day-1 to now. Sounds pretty good, too.

Tinned Compressed Air with a Straw Nozzle and Deoxit is a real friend when entering the inner sanctity of the Vintage Circuits, Panel Control Dials and connections scream their thank you when getting Deoxit Treated from the Devices innards. 

Many Many sing once more with a few minutes of this care being administered.  

Was listening to a couple of days ago with a friend's Dynaco ST-70 which he had it recapped a few years back. He claimed that he spent some $$ to put in premium parts. Well that really paid off. Driving some JBL speakers, they really sound great. but he claimed that before the re-cap, the music was really unlistenable. Those ST70 he got were from the 70's and was never recap till recently.

I have quite a few vintage or old amps that I use every day. In my living room system I have a Thredhold S200 class A amp running through an Audio Resesrch SP1 preamp into Wilson Watt/ Puppies.

    The Threshold I got was a one owner who had it serviced before I bought it, new caps,etc.. It works and sound very nice. I also have a Krell KSA 150 which I bought after it was serviced by the previous owner. It’s my main amp in my dedicated system and I will never part with it. 
  Some older gear is just as nice sounding as newer stuff, maybe not as low a noise floor and the cosmetics might not be up to snuff for the wife but I wholeheartedly believe you can get some excellent equipment at good prices that will last another 20 years.

   Then at that age they probably would be collector items and fetch a good price on the market. Don’t be afraid to take the plunge and buy vintage gear if it’s been properly maintained. I haven’t regretted one purchase yet and I have a ton of vintage gear.

I don't have the high end stuff that's dominating this discussion, but I recently got my Denon PMA 547 up and running. I bought the amp new in 1987 and shelved it in the early 2000s for an Adcom set up since sold. Took the Denon in and basically just cleaned things up and  it works perfectly. Bench fee was $89.  And it sounds surprisingly clean and really rips. Also have a Yamaha CR 450 bought new in 1976 cleaned up, replaced a couple bulbs, and it also works nicely, though the right channel has just started cutting out. 

People often have their amps recapped unnecessarily. Many amps can go 40+ years before a capacitor goes bad. 

More often, in class A and A/B amps, the bias drifts. 

Outside of Class D and THX AAA designs, amp technology really hasn’t improved much in the last 35 years. Buying a flagship amp that is 20 years old but in great condition is a good way to get top-shelf performance for reasonable money, even if you do have to spend $1K to have it refurbished. 

@bdp24 Thank You for the reply.

I asked about the IV Bass Panel as their are reports to be found of it used as a Bass Extension.

My 57's are Stacked, and I will one day produce a Ripole Bass to be coupled to them. This design has a Figure if Eight Radiation that has similarities to the 57 Radiation.

To date, but not with 57's all ESL Speakers heard with a Bass augmentation from a Typical Driver has been noticeable for the add on. This is not saying not liked, but noticeable is a distraction. The Ripole description commonly suggest the Bass Source is lost in the space and not detectable. That is the same description I can add for the 57's, hence the attraction to the design.

Many many years past I was demo'd at a Commercial Audio Event a Gradient Dipole with ESL 63's, I don't remember being that impressed, maybe the price at the time to feel the need to pursue the set up.

The most impressive / indelible demonstration and my Benchmark is the Tim De Paravicini 57''s directly coupled to Valve Power Amp's, his demo' room was non emptying, the experience changed my interest in End Sound for life. I have a close mimic version of this End Sound able to be produced today in my own system.   

Usually when I want substantially noticeable bass presence, I bring in the Cabinet Speakers to be hooked up and give them a run for a period of time.

I am not monogamous about End Sound or Orientated to one formed sound only. , This does not cause any concerns, being able to have variances in the flavour of the Sound acle to be produced, there are other Upstream devices at hand to do similar for the Speakers Types when in use.  

I bought my Quad 303 new in 1978. It was still sounding great when I had it serviced by Quad in 2021. My Sumo Polaris II was untouched and working beautifully when I sold it in 2023, at 28 years old. I bought a recapped Mark Levinson 331 in 2020 - zero problems, and sold it for a profit last year. My star SS amps are my Michell Alecto II monoblocs, serviced by their designer in 2019 and still sounding fantastic at 30.

So I’ve had precisely zero problems with old SS amps over many years. As base class A/AB technology is pretty mature, they’re a good buy, and are a good way to experience different design philosophies and circuit topologies.

@pindac: No but using Tympani bass panels with Quads is a very interesting idea! The problem for me would be the required room size; the two Tympani bass panels are about 40 inches wide, the Quads about 34". Side-by-side the Tympani/Quad pairing requires just over 6 feet per channel! That 12 feet (for both channels) plus say 8 feet between left and right speakers requires 20 feet, and that’s with the Tympani/Quad pairing being right against the side walls. 

In the 90’s I put my Quads on top of ESS Transtatics, the Transtatics laid on their sides (20" tall when so placed). I used the Transtatics as subs; they feature a transmissionline-loaded KEF B139 woofer (Dave Wilson used a pair of that woofer in each of his original 1970’s WAMM super speaker).

In the 80’s and 90’s the Finnish company Gradient offered dipole/open baffle subs designed specifically for both Quad 57’s and 63’s. Those subs also served as bases for their respective speakers. The dipole/open baffle sub now offered by GR Research and Rythmik Audio is a much improved version of the ob/dipole design, and work splendidly with all dipole/panel speakers, including of course Quads. My Quads are now in storage, as I am currently listening to Eminent Technology LFT-8b’s and LFT-4’s. The GRR/Rythmik OB/Dipole Sub may be used in place of the LFT-8b’s stock 8" sealed woofer; the LFT planar-magnetic driver plays down to 180Hz (crossing over to the 8" dynamic woofer), and while "normal" subs can typically play no higher than 100-120Hz, the GRR/Rythmik OB/Dipole woofer can be used up to 300Hz.

@bdp24 Was the Tympani Bass Panels used in Conjunction with the 57's?

I'm assuming in recent times the Bass Panels from a 25ish Year Old Speaker to augment a 65ish Year Old Speakers Bass.

 The Circular Economy is thriving.

If Yes to my assumption, I would like it if you would be willing to share more.

@jasonbourne71:

My Eagle 2 still works (and sounds) fine. I sold my Bedini 25/25 when it needed it's transformers replaced. I paired it only with QUAD 57 ESL's.

I never had a BEL 1001, but still have a PS Audio 200C, which I use with the bass panels of my Magneplanar Tympani T-IVa speakers. I guess I could have included the PS Audio amp in my list, but I don't know how it rates when compared with the others (I haven''t heard it in a while).

Many older power amps are still excellent - check them out and have them recapped if they need it. I still run small production Class A amps like the Belles A, a pair of bridged Classe DR3 VHC, a stereo Classe DR3, a Jeff Rowland 5, and a Robertson  4010 in various systems,

In 1979, I purchased a McIntosh MC2120 power amp for $800, if I recall correctly, from which I graduated to Odyssey monobloc amps in early 2024.  The 2120 was in use the entire 45 years, less one month in the early 2000s for a refurb, which included an LED, capacitors, and other minor parts replacements, which cost me about half of the original purchase price.  The amplifier performed superbly, and I upgraded because I realized that I would better sound with more power for the speakers, and I actually considered seeking another MC2120 to bi-amp the speakers, but I was convinced to purchase more powerful monobloc amps.  With appropriate care, SS amps can serve a long time quite well. 

@boomerbillone 

What you need is a dim bulb tester, not a gas mask 😂

You need recapping if you turn the unit on, there is a flash of flame and the room fills with smoke. I found it (enormous, heavy, Adcom receiver) in a thrift store for $30. For $80 in parts (power supply capacitors) and a bit of work it now sounds wonderful. It's built like a tank! I'm still hunting for bargains but will wear goggles and a mask when powering them up for the first time. Perhaps I can find one of those flame proof suits Nascar drivers wear. That $12 Yamaha tape deck didn''t blow up, but it didn't play tapes ether.

@drmuso 

Thumbs up from a fellow Classé owner! The David Reich designs were fantastic. I definitely have a pair of DR-3 VHC on my bucket list. 

Happy listening!

+1 for McCormack.

Have a 225 if you're interested..

My Classé Audio DR-9 amps are over 35 yrs. old and functioning fine.  They came with a lifetime warranty.  Try to get one of those these days.  I expect they were built to last.  They are Class AB, so never get as hot as Class A amps, so that also helps with their longevity.  I use them in bridged mode, so they provide loads of power and current.

About a year ago I removed the lids to remove dust, and I think I inspected the caps and didn't see anything suspicious.

I have 3 old Yamaha AVRs.  One is 29 years old, another is 25 and the third is 21.  They all still work.  Amps last forever as long as the on/off switch works in my experience.  I bought the newest one used for $25 at a yard sale.  A great deal.  

@bdp24: I have all three! My Bedini 25/25 still doesn’t work despite being sent to John Bedini (RIP) in Idaho three times. The Brown Electronics Lab (BEL) 1001 amp worked briefly after I acquired it from the original owner. He was a friend of Richard Brown (RIP). It is the first production one - serial no. 0001. The John Iverson (RIP) Electron Kinetics Eagle 2A is still working. All three are competitive sonically with today's six-figure made-in-Switzerland amps!

I still use an 8002 Aragon solid state dual monaural for my power amp. It is clear as a bell and puts out 400 watts into 4 ohms and is about 30 years old. Bought it new and have never been disappointed.

Might not have all the numbers straight but

I like the 74ish Marantz 2035. 2135?  Cat Steven's,!  

I didn't like Sansui, Kenwood, Pioneer but could be mixed up.

Magnapans were too much for Ampzilla, Quattre.  I believe we settled on SAE.

We had Carvers and Leaches. Nice sounding amps.  The leach was reliable, Carver no.  

Around the mid ’80’s Bob Carver made some very good sounding amplifiers with an unusual and very light power supply. He challenged critics to hear any difference between his M1.0 and an expensive high-end tube amp (forgot which one) - and he proved his point- they couldn’t hear a difference.
Subsequent designs like the PM1.5t and PM2.0t were made for the pro audio industry and they were immediately accepted for their light weight and superb audio quality - and now you can find these used on eBay for around $500. 
I don’t think anything these days at any price will give you better performance than these vintage Carvers- even at at ten times the price.

Only down side: A little bit of fan noise, but in a home system where these will be barely whispering, you can easily disconnect the fan, like I did with mine, running the woofers in a bi-amped system.
 

Marc Stager
and check out my cables:
https://silversolids.com/

I am 'Tipping my Hat' to those giving a Boost to and Promotion of the environmental considerate Circular Economy.

Land Fills need not be the Journey's End.

I know many who are Participant and unknowing, I am a knowing Participant and am Proud of the collective Walk the Walk being done.

@emergingsoul sadly there is no variac for wine! 😁

Old to some, boat anchors to others, missing the bells and whistles of modern…time spent (hobby) irrelevant, its about the sound quality. The make doesn’t matter if it’s liked and breaks ya fix it new or old.

@1971gto455ho 

+1 That's exactly how I look at it. Giving great gear a new lease on life is worth the while in my opinion. Congrats on refurbishing your PC5002M, these are gorgeous amps!

Often manufacturers would glue caps to the PCB. Although you'd like to think they did this for the sake of microphonics, the glue was there to hold the components in place while they were being soldered.

Sometimes with age and heat that glue kind of decomposes and spreads out over the PCB from under the cap. For all the world it looks like the cap is leaking, but it's not, it's just glue. 

Not that glue is necessarily benign: in rare cases it becomes conductive and causes short-circuits.

I’ve just finished restoring/tuning a Yamaha Pc5002m, better than spec and 8.5 looking. I’ve two driving the music section and a Pc4002m on the movie section. Certainly I’ve head room, no strain for anyone. The 5002m’s are truly audiophile be it in PA clothing, a marketing decision a.k.a. 101m reface. All three have had very time consuming and detailed refurbishing. Not a lot of technicians can or are willing to work on these, the detail justifies their spec sheet. Old to some, boat anchors to others, missing the bells and whistles of modern…time spent (hobby) irrelevant, its  about the sound quality. The make doesn’t matter if it’s liked and breaks ya fix it new or old. 
 

Cheers 

@devinplombier 

Fascinating your knowledge on this.

So basically the older wine bottles I opened a few months ago, all bad and disturbing, are foreshadowing problems I may have connecting some pieces of equipment I haven't used for years. 

A variac is absolutely the way to go if not sure about caps, you can reform then through a process of starting off with low voltage and increasing in steps. Also, I'd open up and visually check every cap, look for leakage, swelling.

@emergingsoul 

Manufacturers of electrolytics usually say shelf life is 2 years but it depends on storage conditions, mainly temperature. It's generally accepted that the rate of electrolyte degradation doubles every 10 C increase. In addition, high humidity causes lead corrosion. Climate-controlled storage is pretty critical.

Personally, I would restart anything that hasn't been turned on in a year on a variac.

@devinplombier 

Any idea how long this is? so It’s a good idea to turn them on every once in a while.

Should probably get rid of the stuff in the boxes if I’m not gonna use it. 

It's nice to know solid amps just like us the way they self heal.  Self healing is underrated. Pretty incredible.

OP

20-year-old amps, as other have posted is just at its prime (as long as it is not abused). If it's a Pass, then it can be recapped if you wish at the factory.

I would grab that offer (if it's a Pass) right away assuming the price is right

My old amps were Rotel and one of the first Decware amps. these were about 20 years to this day, and they all sounded great, no need for CAP changes. 

I love my carver stuff.the 500 is on ferris buler day off movie.i have nelon audio refresh them.epic and enjoy the music.he puts blue led in the meters and they think there mcintosh.

I have/use a Yamaha RX-Z9 bought new in 2003 now with over 35,000 hours that still functions like new.  Maybe the fan is a bit louder.

How long will a amplifier last if it's stored away in a box? Is there a shelf?

@emergingsoul 

The process by which electrolytic caps self-heal is suspended when not powered. Caps can become severely dried out as a result.

There is no hard expiration date, but any equipment that uses electrolytic caps (not just amps) and has been in storage for a long time should be brought back to life slowly and safely on a variac, as long as it has a linear power supply (SMPS-powered equipment is another story, but few audiophiles own any). The variac process allows caps to reform. Long-stored equipment should never be plugged straight into the wall.

A variac is a variable AC supply. It's quite inexpensive and well-worth buying if you plan on putting any long-stored gear back in service.

I have a Mark Levinson No.23 and a No.27.5 which I acquired used about twenty years ago. Although they have not in in use for several years now, I am confident that I can plug either one into my system and they will do just fine.

How long will a amplifier last if it's stored away in a box? Is there a shelf?

@dynacohum I have some Great American Sound (GAS) gear: two Sons of Ampzilla, a Grandson and a Thoebe preamp. One Son and the preamp need repair.

Also in present use is a Carver TFM-15cb that I bought fifteen years ago at my local Goodwill for $25. Working fine!

I have an Adcom GFA-1 and a Carver M400 cube amp in my collection yet to be tried out. Along with several tube amps of varying ages.

I have a 40-year old Sumo Andromeda 200wpc amp in 24/7 use for the last seven years. Designed by James Bongiorno of SAE, SWTP, GAS, Dynaco, SST fame. All original parts! Sounds fine! Bought it on eBay for $450. 

Ive read that electrolitic capacitors dry up, leak, swell after about 15 to 20 years.

@bikefi10 

That’s mostly an urban legend though. Look at your Carver M400: these amps are notably unreliable due to their tight packaging and, well, Carver - yet the caps in it have lasted 40 years.

Id plan on having amp recapped at some point if you buy it. Ive read that electrolitic capacitors dry up, leak, swell after about 15 to 20 years. Probably factors such as cap quality, use, environment play a part.

Bought a Carver M400 amp and C4000 pre  new in 1980.

Waited a bit too long, but had them recapped 40 years later. They were in storage about 10 years of that time.  Definately needed it.

I have a vintage 1982ish Adcom GFA-2 that I bought used in the early 90s. It was my first hi-fi component that I owned that wasn't a hand-me-down from my father. It's slated to be recapped. As is, the GFA-2 is a fun amp to use but it's not the daily driver. I only keep it for sentimental reasons, but I imagine, once recapped I could sell it for more than what I paid for it. I think I paid $150 for it at the time. So I'd say I got more than my money's worth for 30+ years of service. 

As with so many things in life, I believe the answer is "It depends.". I would say that looking for something from a company with a good reputation for quality and, even better, one that still services their gear, might be optimal but I wouldn't let it scare me off if they don't.

The key is finding a good, reputable shop. If you're looking at Pass, then the answer is likely just send it to them. If you're looking at other gear, then finding a good shop is paramount. 

I had the luxury of visiting the shop I'll be using out of Austin. I feel very good about working with them. 

Happy listening.

Been using a Sony 3200f since new in the early seventy's.  It was a party amp and quiet listening amp.  Always and the only problem is a burned out "on" lamp.  .  Took it to a McIntosh test and was told by Mac tech it was a "good little amp."  Never serviced but the "on" lamp burned out about 30 years ago.  Now it shares duty with a Decware for fun.  The differences are there but not huge.   A good find would be a bargain.  Good ventilation is essential.

I was given a McIntosh MC2250, it was many years old, I used it trouble free for many more years, until I went back to efficient horn speakers and tube preamp/amp. 

https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/legacy-products/amplifiers/MC2250

Had it checked by McIntosh at a lab day at Harvey’s NYC when I got it, checked perfect, beyond spec, needed one LED replaced; and had it checked/certified by McIntosh factory in Binghamton, NY prior to selling it, needed nothing.

I’ve bought nearly 20 used amps of various vintage, many 20-30 years old by now.  Only two have had sound problems (as opposed to needing new bulbs in meters and that sort of thing): a Levinson 23 which are known to cook themselves to death, and a Classe that still works but has occasional right channel fussiness. 

The rest work great. 

IMHO, buying new vs used says more about the personality of the owner than the reliability of the gear (not saying either is superior).  I have friends that just won’t own used.