No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need

 what speakers do the customer use with the TELOS 600 ?

 My answers to your questions here under:

 1) we chose this heavy duty Swiss Made silver Coaxial connector in order to perefectly match the speed of Goldmund amplifiers to speakers of various origins . Also for its fastest and most neutral design.

 2) The connectors are not available for sale without the cables which are custom made at Goldmund.

3) What is the maximum gauge of a speaker cable, that this connector can use? : hereafter the info I received from our technician:

--> Please find the specification of the Goldmund Speaker cable for your information:

     - Power Handling : 8.5 kW at 10 MHz.

    - Section : Inner conductor 5.63 mm2. Outer conductor : 2 x 7.4 mm2 crossed shielding.

    - Nominal Impedance : 50 +/- 2 Ohms.

    - Insulation  : > 6 kV.

    - Material : Inner conductor : Cu 99%. Outer conductor : tuned mix Cu 96% & Cu 94%.

    - Weight  : 30 kg / 100 m.

    - Dynamic Minimum Bending Radius : 200 mm.

 Hope it helps.

 Thanks.

 Best Regards.

 Rodolphe BOULANGER 

For your waiting for me to describe this formula, I would kindly advice you don't hold your breath…

Without insulting Mr. John Atkinson, if he would answer this question already, you wouldn't ask for it from me now.

However, if you think that he can help you out, why you are not asking him?

You better do, because this is the last time for me to answer you.

When you (or other) get in a debate to the stage you cannot answer a point, and you go to bring quotes of others, it's a sign that you went short and out of ideas. As so, you most likely bring to the table a quote you do not understand. So the bottom line of such a case is you pull your idol into a debate they never asked for, represented wrongly and badly.

Mr. dill

I'm happy you are back. For a little while, everyone was pro and positive, being busy with their own DIY… I kind of missed the pickles, those who are going against my idea in all possible way and also trying to get the knowhow for free.

Why do you think I should give my formula to you and others?

I have a feeling that some of our pickles are planted represents fom firms or dealers from the cable industry. Having me spreading the idea, without them having the formula, is a big concern. I can understand that.

So far, I helped all who asked for.

Never said NO!

I Did it for free.

So no one can blame me of anything. Some guys already trying to get themselves the proposed cable. One already did. I would kindly advice you to read what he had to say. With some more patients, more will get to the finish line and be kind to share. I would predict that their new sound will be also way better than they had before.

The thing is "Big" because the speaker's cable industry kept you all from accomplish the full potential of your sound system. Systems that cost in a range of $5,000.- to $250,000.- and from this reason you enjoyed only a part (sometimes as small as 20%!) of that investment rather than all of it. As they spent that kind of money, they think that they have a high-end sound. Well if you read the first sharing on this thread, you may understand what the sound was before and after he replaced his cables. It reminds me the sharing of my friend who got a set from me and I posted his impressions. You can connect the dots. A clear picture will unfold here pretty soon. A beautiful one.

For asking the formula, in some aggressive and ugly ways, I wonder if you believe this is the right approach to get it? The funny thing is that all the pickles so far, showed very poor understanding in this subject.  

Mr. geoffkait

What a story over nothing.

Your first par. refers to the burn-in (BI) process without calling it by that specific name.

Burn in to a cooper cables!

I'll ask you again (asked you already on the BI thread, you avoid from answering with your perfect manners):

What is a burn in?

How long does it takes?

When is it required and why?

Your second par. You do a statement, as you are the absolute authority to define what cable is hi-fi, hi-end or extra-hi-end, and what cable is not (trash cable). You are actually bringing here the lord's word on cables grading. You are the messenger. If you would understand the original old testimony it its original language (Hebrew) you would know that the miss translated word "Angle" to English is "Messenger" in Hebrew. From your extensive postings on my thread and other's threads, you are none of the two for sure.

Just kindly remind you, that cooper as an element has fixed (k) conductivity (ρ). It is 1.68x10-8. Or 1.59x10-8 for Silver and it is only 5.3% better than cooper (I know this will make your day…).

A wire (cable) has a resistance (R cable) that is: R = ρ  x  L/S

L is the lengths in meters and S is the cross section in mm^2

I assume that your judgmental approach is based on the cables isolator look, the color and a scale of reputation given by the firm that you are doing all this for.

Your Third par. You go into some lyrics about the sound. The sound of music…That is fascinating observation, that all the sudden you can tell what someone's system sound's, in someone's room you never heard with any cable, of what it sounds like now with a blue colored thick cable, in incredible detail. 

I'm impressed Mr. geoffkait from your lyrics, but I don't like the tune, the rendition. You've got my attention and I got suspicious. For the amount of time and effort you put into your crusade, you must have a motive and maybe a sponsor.

Mr. conradnash

Thanks.

Here is the excell of this subject as so far two had acomplished their cables and shared their impressions:

imgur.com/a/dPO2o1p (add the http...when use the URL)

If you would like to change the level of satisfaction, please tell me what your score is.

For the rest, who haven’t yet got to the finish line, please enter your sharing in the same format as Mr. conradnash did. Thanks.

Mr. geoffkait

What is between resistance and conductivity?

Yes, silver is by 5.4% better than cooper. But the cost...Mr. geoffkait, the cost. Is 94 times higher. You can add 6% to the cross section and save the cost of silver.

For the rest, as you are not responding to my questions, I'll take the liberty to do the same.

I'll do answer myself regarding Burn In (BI)

In the military and airborne industry, regarding reliability the attitude is serious. As so, they came out with MIL-STD-785B, MILITARY STANDARD: RELIABILITY PROGRAM FOR SYSTEMS AND EQUIPMENT DEVELOPMENT AND PRODUCTION and  MIL-HDBK-217F, MILITARY HANDBOOK: RELIABILITY PREDICTION OF ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT.

The theory (I'll save you from reading all of it), is that a LRU (line replaceable unit) has a life cycle and a life span. Most of its failures accrue during its childhood and at the end of its days. A BI process (mandatory!) is done on each unit (100% of all batches), in which the units are entered into a temperature chamber that has a bottom vibration plate for 10 cycles. Those cycles are calculated as the MIL STD requires, and their cycle's length and durations are set. By the end of this BI process, the LRU is over its childhood and starts its failure free life cycle.

At the same time the BI also surface craftsmanship and components with poor margins. At an event of a failure, an analysis is conducted and the data is accumulated. Pattern failures will surface engineering or reliability issues if any. During the process, the LRU is turned off at extreme cold (-54 Deg. C) and turned on at -40C. After some time at -40, it will climb to +55 or +70C for a longer period of time. During all that the LRU is "ON" and runs a BI test loop.

So how is that relevant to a speaker cable? As the LRU is not performing any better at the end of the BI process, nether is a cable. BI is not about performance. It is about reliability.

No one, even in the military and airborne industry ever do reliability predictions or reliability verification for single wire. Also the MIL STDs don't require it (it is required only for: SYSTEMS AND EQUIPMENT and ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT, as the MIL STD specifies).

The swindler part of the audio industry and sales borrowed this say to get things working for them. When a guy gets an expensive cable or is demonstrated with one, to be convinced to buy it, and the impression from hearing cession, doesn't cut the deal, The BI comes to their help. It will buy them time to send a full customer home with that item, waist its time (as really nothing changes in the physical level, it remains the same cooper wire with the same properties as before the BI), and the deal is sealed. Don't be full and don't fall into this scheme. Another way to call it, is a full's story over a bad product. An excellent deal for the sales man, but not a good deal for you. Never buy the BI story. Don't be full.

The cables prices do not reflect the elements prices of the crud market. You know and all know that they are price is irrelevant of the material cost they are made of. You have a tendency to twist everything in your favor, regardless of what the truth is. It may show who you are and what your priorities are. Still, none have to do with my thread. So far the prove of two dear members who posted their share is on my side. I have one more of a friend from Vancouver BC. (Was posted at an early stage of this thread). More will follow soon. What is it you have on your side? Pickles (sour) posts. The Burn was your issue. You brought it up. I condemned it from the beginning. It is mostly relevant to equipment and systems never over a wire. Your support over the other thread on the subject is clear. You also hold about 50% of the 756 posts of that thread, even thou it's not yours.

I'm no king and I'm no liar. A man is only as good as his word. I stand behind my word. Do you.

Whom are you representing? Most cable manufacturers have no idea what they are doing. They spread the message of unproved crap: Directionality, copper purity, cryo treatment, or burn in. Some even add some box with passive components on the cable.

I had this Sun. a job interview at RAFAEL. They asked for a phenomena of a system they showed me the schematics,  that got a problem of oscillating and under voltage. I asked for the distance from the power supply and how thick were the wires? I nailed it. It was way less than 160 ft. Your 160 ft cable shows that you have no idea what a speaker's cable roll in a sound system. However, you do sound as the average ignorant Joe that sales them.

Thanks Mr. geoffkait. I am so relived.

On the other hand, I wrote that you are from the cables industry and you never denied.

So, that’s an admit!

It's nothing wrong with being one of them, as long as you state it with your name, for all to know, but you don't! That’s wrong. It is obvious you are caring their message and care for them.

They have no idea about speaker cables. They provide cables to all, without having any knowledge of what is the cable each of us need. No calculations, no science, no engineering, nada. Only urban myths they created to cover their unfortunate ignorance. This is about "your" truth.

As you stated, in your own words, the rest are lies and you are a king of lies.

Look at those who already made the recommended cables. They spent money before on cables that didn't deliver. Some shared of many thousands spent and not being happy with the result! Now, at first attempts, with my help – it is on spot!

It would make more sense if the cable industry would be able to do so and not a b4icu guy from Israel, first time on this forum. Unfortunately, the cables industry been established a reality you try to protect and support, that is taking advantage of the audio clients. As you are part of that industry, it is clear and understood from where your endless effort and perseverance is coming from.

Mr. skyscraper (Mike)

Speaker cables are wires to connect between your speakers and amplifier. They should be of a specific resistance that mostly depends on the Amplifiers and speakers specifications and the required length. Unfortunately, no cable maker is kind enough to tell you what right cable is for you, using an engineering method. They mostly tell you of some properties, like directional wire, cryo treatment, burn in process and more. All this has nothing to do with the subject but an elegant excuse to charge a lot for it.

As for my method (calculated) cables, some are getting really thick. Cable brands charge for that kind of cables (0 AWG and thicker) an arm and a leg. This is why it is best to keep those cables as short as possible. Sometimes two mono blocks would cost you less than a set of long and thick speaker cable. For every time you double the length of a cable, you need to double its cross section too.

DIY is up to you. Find your materials, put them together by yourself and you are ready to go. Some who did it here ended up under $60 for a set. Do they look as nice as a readymade cable that you buy? No. Do they do the job? Yes. VFM: excellent and beyond!

By reading their sharing, they absolutely do. It was on spot from the first try. One guy already spent in the past as much as $2,000 on a single cable, and way more on multiple cables and none was as good as the one he made by my recommendation. His sharing is absolutely amazing.

Not all have the skills or are handy to get along with such a project. It is not easy to work with thick cables. When you need cables thicker than 0 AWG, as 2x 0 AWG or 4x 0AWG, no one I know about, can do that. I can. I developed a way of getting there…It involves ordering special made CNC parts of cooper bars and more.

Tell me what equipment you have and I can calculate for you the cable that would serve you best.

Mr. Dill

Obviously you do NOT read this thread nor understand what it is about.

Please add the https:// in front and than imgur.com/a/WeAn11u

All who made this DIY and shared got a 0 AWG. Some recommendations were for 4 AWG.

But for some, who insisted of longer cables because a fire place or the management, or one guy who approached me on the private messages that had an exceptional amplifier,

because of that needed more than 0 AWG.

If I would be a cable's dealer of a maker who have non 0 AWG on its line, I would state the same!

b4icu,

I have been following this thread and accepted your reluctance to reveal the formula you have.

However, looking at responses and recommendations, I noticed some patterns and came up with a few conclusions.

Getting a thicker cable than necessary minimum may not improve the sound, but will not be detrimental either. It will be more expensive because thicker cables tend to be so.

Cables that posters who reported improvement following your recommendations used are, overall, quite affordable when talking about audio equipment. Altogether, $100-200 for runs of a few meters. Definitely much cheaper than "real" audio cables.

Your recommendations seem to be, in most cases, limited to, at largest, 0 AWG. That seems to be enough for most of the users, unless they are running 20 meters of cable which many are probably not.

Is it safe to assume that most of the users who are using maybe 2-3-4 meter cables and are not concerned about the difference of a $50-100 between minimally necessary (let's say AWG 4) and AWG 0 would be sufficiently served by simply buying AWG 0? That would eliminate your formula and need to bother you with calculations while giving some inexpensive window where thickness is enough, if not more than enough.

One of the posters published pictures of his new cable. It is quite thick (I forgot actual numbers) and has much thinner and very short one embedded at the end with that thinner one being attached to a banana which then goes in the amplifier. If there is a need for a very thick cable, does this thinner piece negate the benefits of all the thickness before it?

If my assumptions are correct, for most of the posters, the actual focus would need to shift on technical aspect of constructing a usable cable rather than on how thick the cable should be. AWG 0 would suffice in most cases and would not cost too much. More difficult question would be how to connect to speakers and amplifier.

Mr. glupson

Thanks. For an educated summery and for bringing this thread back to a civilized conversation. This mod wrestling with the industry hidden representative is so wrong.

I try to avoid a "one cable solution for all" as it is not the right engineering approach. Even your 2-3-4 suggestion is not proper. A 4m long cable must be of the double the cross section of a 2m long, to keep the same resistance. On the gauge table it is like going from 1 AWG to 5 AWG! The 2m would be a 3 AWG etc'. For those who cannot do with a short cable, and they must use a long one, the cable will get thicker. It easily can get as thick as 4x 0 AWG at some lengths.

I said loud and clear that the cable resistance is up to the amplifier (some speakers might be different, but most apply to the say: No matter what speaker you are using!). Different amplifiers would imply different cables thickness, even if we stick to a short 2.5m length.

Tube amplifiers have such a low DF that a home phone cords would do. As the DF rise, so gets the cable thicker (lower the AWG). When DF is 150 the cable you need is different than when the DF is 500 or even higher.

Some D class amplification, have extremely high DFs to exceed 5000! The more practical way to relate that (by the Amp designer help) is to say the actual DF is 1000. Still a relatively very high figure.

I'm not sure that the DIY is a solution for everyone. My friend in Vancouver, even I've told him everything he needed, he asked me to make him the cable. He was willing to pay me for the expanses and labor. I charged him only for my expanses.

I will repeat that it is difficult to work with such thick cables. I've been in that movie. My embracing for all cable's ending is a banana plugs. Spades are not as good, and so is the bare wire (not practical for an 8 AWG or thicker). I'm aware that some binding posts cannot have banana plugs!

The way to go from a 0 AWG cable to a banana plug, is with a short wire that will fit the banana plug and then to connect it to the thick cable. This wire shall be as thick as possible and so as short. It shall still have some length to enable the cable's strain relief. A 0 AWG cable is stiff. It is recommended to use a crimping method and not soldering. The entire end shall be protected and isolated with some shrinking sleeve. The cable must be reliable and last long. It also must be safe to use and never risk your equipment.

I do not think that the cable or the banana plug needs to be expensive or get into the definition of hi-end. This say piss's me off, as the 12-14 AWG ordinary cables on the market, are practically limiting a good sound system by 50%-80%. They still sold for a lot and called hi-end. A bit awkward. What wouldn't the maker say to get it sold for more $. I'd found that some materials are better to work with over others and do the job as well or better. So I gave up the obsession on the say and criticism, over practicality and good compliance to the engineering requirements.

So far, I didn't say much over the DIY solutions that some members of this forum came up with. They were creative and their cables do the job. They also ended up with extremely low cost. They might have some reliability problems on the long run. How your presidents say: "We will see. Something will happen". I assume that the average sound systems involved were of $10,000 range. A $60 cable cost is respectably amazingly low. From the comments of the difference in sound, the VFM is outstanding. You know the audio market. No one can upgrade that much a $10,000.- system for a $60.- investment. The only way to get better than that (VFM) is to place better the speakers. But that is a shame on who didn't done that already (-: Another way is to drink a nice glass of wine (-: