No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
"My say to Mr. geoffkait implied he could make them (one or both)…"It is not "geoffkait implied". It is "what I said to Mr. geoffkait implied that he could make them..." b4icu's statement implied that geoffkait could do something. He did not say that geoffkait implied something. Kids, each one to his own room and do the homework. |
"...a bad management decision to launch it in spite of very low temperature that day..."I know nothing about Space Shuttles but was the low temperature at the launch site really that crucial for something designed to, minutes later, be in temperatures that are hardly ever, if ever, observed on Earth’s surface? I am not trying to make this into a Space Shuttle thread, although it is becoming one, but it seems illogical to a complete layman. What am I missing here? Where was that low temperature? |
geoffkait, "...is just one example where inquisitive audiophiles are actually ahead..."Could you, in the future, refer to this statement you just made? You know, on those occasions when you call my questions "what about this and what about that routine"? Change the name of that routine to "an inquisitive mind that is actually ahead". Ahead of you, at least. |
kalali, "BS flows downhill thus directionality exists."I think that plumbers are underappreciated and underpaid. As you pointed out in some way, they know a lot about directionality and narrow points in the flow. Like going from 0 AWG to 8 AWG at the end of the cable. It is still quite a mystery to me why, in this thread, large diameter is a crucial positive influence while narrowing it at the end is negligible. |
b4icu, I was not talking about real fuse or about placing one anywhere. It was a hypothetical question "how thin does the connecting wire have to be before it is called a fuse?". It may not be 12-14 AWG, but at what AWG would it be? Now, when I think about it, that is the question that could probably be answered with a calculation. Not by me, but by some reasonably experienced electrical engineer. "This whole thread is about minimizing the resistance of that loop, so a fuse will not do well to that."and "Some short and not so thin (I always repeated to use as thick as possible) wires at the end, won't change the cables resistance by much."I fully understand what you mean by both statements, but also do notice that you decide to downplay/ignore ("won't change by much") increased resistance on one part while considering the resistance of the other significant. At the same time, both of those resistances cannot be that huge and that is what your "opponents" claim. |
b4icu, "Those observations were both for the reporter and his spouse that confirmed his impression of grate sound improvement. It’s on this the thread, you can find it and read it."I read it. In fact I think I read about 95 % of this thread and I hope it will not count against me on judgment day. Still, my point was only that logic would tell me that thicker wire, as you suggest in all of your responses, conducts better and would measure/calculate better. On the other hand, some would say that measured differences at realistic cable lengths are so small that they could be considered negligible. The only way to determine what happens sonically would be to listen. Which is exactly what you reported in your response above. That would make calculations/measurements marginally useful for anyone interested in sound and not technical lamentations. Now, why thinness of the wire is such a huge factor while it is not a factor when attached between the thick one and a banana plug is a little confusing. I do not expect that answer. Not from you, not from anyone. I feel that answer may have less to do with electrical properties and more with other characteristics of human nature. |
b4icu, You misunderstood my (fully hypothetical) question and cut it in pieces that lost the original meaning in the process. "How thin is that last connecting piece on the 0 AWG wire allowed to be" I'd answered that already before! It should be as thick as possible, or as thick as the banana plug can get. The question was, in fact,... How thin is that last connecting piece on the 0 AWG wire allowed to be before it can be considered a fuse? Not that I expect anyone to have an answer, or speaker cable to become a fuse, but there is a conceptual similarity in things I mentioned (fuses and thin wire attached to the thick wire). "If you think of an 8-10 gauge wire as a fuse, you are wrong! The 0 AWG is the fuse in that system…"You got me on this one. I could have sworn that every fuse I have ever encountered had a filament inside that was thinner than the wires it was placed between. I stand corrected although puzzled by this development in electrical engineering. I will blame the dogma they taught me in elementary school and my lack of keeping up with reality. I am too scared to find out why thicker wire would, in a fuse, burn sooner than the thin one. In my, admittedly mislead, mind I thought the thicker one conducts better and, sort of, more. Not to make it a wall wire thread, although it deserves comparison, but I cannot but think that we should have been putting thinner and thinner wires in the wall if we wanted carefree conduction. Which might have been the point of all those manufacturers selling hair-thin speaker cables. Whatever it is, I am puzzled. |
I just re-read the first page of this thread. I am still laughing. "0 AWG? Call in the crane." (with a link to a 1000 ft of some thick wire shipping only to a commercial address) "We want to listen to speakers, not jump start them." "It might be a good idea to push the bong aside for a few days so you can get back in touch with reality." "This is the oddest thread." |
I doubt many would claim that thicker wire is detrimental to the sound. However we look at it, the narrowing of the conductor at the end is the weak spot. Theoretically, it has to be. Practically, maybe negligible. But many might say that for common cable lengths (2-3-4 meters) it is all negligible anyway. So, if we are talking in technical/calculations terms, decreasing the wire gauge must be of some importance. If we are talking about sound quality, it may not be important at all and the only way to find out is to listen to it. Which makes calculations redundant and those who claimed that cables have to be listened to and not calculated, sort of, right. How thin is that last connecting piece on the 0 AWG wire allowed to be before it can be considered a fuse? Should I ask that on some fuse thread? People there have some strong opinions about similar filaments' impact on the sound. |
b4icu "But anything above 0.2% is audible. 1.5% is a bad figure for today amps.",As true as it may be, don’t forget that people tend to like some sound so that particular distortion, as presented in numbers, may actually be beneficial and preferred by a given owner. It may not be exactly what came into the amplifier, but may be what makes an owner enjoy more. In 2018, it may be possible to make it closer to perfection, but that perfection may not be pleasant for someone. In some way like putting sugar in the lemonade or some spice in the dish recipe. Others may not like it, but who are they to say anything. |
geoffkait may be right (mark this day in your century calendar). This is from some cable test where around 50 people showed up. Obviously, those are people more obsessed with audio reproduction than average. Out of them... "55% of voting audience uses bulk wire (not branded) on their home systems. Of those that use branded cables, 72% cost $500 or less per set in retail dollars. Therefore, 13% of audience use “expensive cables”, 33% use branded cables $500 or less." https://www.stereophile.com/content/minnesota-audio-society-conducts-cable-comparison-tests-0#kR5mmi... |
"In fact, damping factor means nothing."I know close to nothing about damping factor but am perplexed by such a finite statement. Why do manufacturers of not-so-shabby products mention damping factor then? Is there any reason why a manufacturer of an amplifier would write in a promo material that "damping factor was increased from 205 to 260"? I know it is a promo material, but they get their stripes not on those numbers most of the time. |
b4icu, I have been following this thread and accepted your reluctance to reveal the formula you have. However, looking at responses and recommendations, I noticed some patterns and came up with a few conclusions. Getting a thicker cable than necessary minimum may not improve the sound, but will not be detrimental either. It will be more expensive because thicker cables tend to be so. Cables that posters who reported improvement following your recommendations used are, overall, quite affordable when talking about audio equipment. Altogether, $100-200 for runs of a few meters. Definitely much cheaper than "real" audio cables. Your recommendations seem to be, in most cases, limited to, at largest, 0 AWG. That seems to be enough for most of the users, unless they are running 20 meters of cable which many are probably not. Is it safe to assume that most of the users who are using maybe 2-3-4 meter cables and are not concerned about the difference of a $50-100 between minimally necessary (let's say AWG 4) and AWG 0 would be sufficiently served by simply buying AWG 0? That would eliminate your formula and need to bother you with calculations while giving some inexpensive window where thickness is enough, if not more than enough. One of the posters published pictures of his new cable. It is quite thick (I forgot actual numbers) and has much thinner and very short one embedded at the end with that thinner one being attached to a banana which then goes in the amplifier. If there is a need for a very thick cable, does this thinner piece negate the benefits of all the thickness before it? If my assumptions are correct, for most of the posters, the actual focus would need to shift on technical aspect of constructing a usable cable rather than on how thick the cable should be. AWG 0 would suffice in most cases and would not cost too much. More difficult question would be how to connect to speakers and amplifier. |
It is all little game and it is harmless. If it helps someone, great. If it does not, so what. It is a little unusual of an approach, but enough people accepted the challenge so it may not be that wrong of an approach after all. Little by little, people started being interested and trying to do what b4icu suggests. It seems that some had success. That is good enough, I think. |
b4icu, I think you made a few quick statements that are incorrect or, at least partial. "Till my thread you were thinking it is good only for jump start cables!"It may be that way, but it did not seem to me. However, inconvenience of very thick cables is a big factor, as reported by a few people who tried it on this thread, including yourself. What good is a perfection when it is hard to implement? I am not saying that in theory or practice the sound will not be "better" but that for many that may be impossible to achieve due to practical constraints. I was hoping to try and then realized it simply would not work for me in the long run (timewise, not wirewise). So, for many, thick wire may really be good only for jump start cables. "All the sudden, DF is a factor to choose a speaker cable!"Some posters have disputed the importance of DF earlier in the thread. I have not followed that closely so I am not sure if those are the ones you consider "changing skin" in the meantime but I do remember people trying to argue their view of it. It may not be that DF became important but simply that people took your statements seriously, thought of them, and extended their opinion to you/us. Some might have gotten enlightened along the way. Nothing wrong with that. "None of you went into the understanding how and why this additional resistance of a cable is effecting your sound."I am technical-knowledge-challenged but I did ask how does going from a thick (0 AWG) cable to the connecting piece (8? 14?, I forgot but it looked much thinner on the picture) influence the whole cable system. Does it negate, or at least diminish, the benefits of that thick cable that came before it? I would guess, correct me if I am wrong, that it adds resistance so I asked. You might have overlooked my question or I might have overlooked your answer. Either way, someone did think about additional resistance. "Going back to my say, that most of you are having the wrong cable connected in your system!"It may be true, but claiming something so sternly about thousands of systems around the world that one has never heard or combinations that one could hardly imagine may not be the best approach. In some church-like environment, maybe, but, in going "against" multiple adults who may posses many skills you are not aware of, it comes across as a bit arrogant. And, easily, silly in its error. Better leave the door open that you are not infallible, either. "For the naggers, you changed your skin in a second, as a salamander camouflage, even thou nothing really changed in my claim. Is that shows what kind of people you are?"Open-minded, ready to accept different views when presented in a reasonable fashion, willing to improve, not stubborn, not arrogant "my way or no way", etc. In short, great bright people. Hardly lizards. "Do you know how much clutter is on the web?"We all do. This thread is not the only one. It is a fun clutter, though. |
According to that calculator, I need 0 AWG to have the final (calculated) damping factor about the same as what amplifier instructions say it is. Not much of a revelation. Didn't we already conclude that it all comes down to 0 AWG? Making the cable 10 (ten) times longer does bring it down some but 15 meters per channel would mean 30 meters between speakers and that must be a rare occasion in real life. |
b4icu, Thanks for all of this. I completely forgot about the weight which may become an issue. I guess, I could try with a little thinner cable that would be easier fit. It just seems like some easy game that is not that hard to do and costs quite close to a dinner for two around here. I think that it my case it would be sonically completely unimportant, but why not try. If my cables were any shorter, my speakers would be called headphones. I am sure you have noticed the difference in attitude that other posters have towards your original post and ideas after you have started explaining your thoughts and giving practical examples. Now, if everyone tried to do what you suggest, we may get an answer if you are correct in your convictions about cable manufacturers. Luckily, there are other threads that deal with that. |
b4icu, Getting thicker or shorter or both, above that optimum, would cost more, but not be of any sonic benefit (improvement). If we forget about cost/benefit ratio, or the total price altogether, would getting thicker and/or shorter cable than necessary (optimum) be detrimental to the sound? I have no idea how thick 0 AWG really is but would be willing to follow shadowcat2016's example for the fun of it. |
Does it all come down to "use the thickest and shortest cable there is" or am I simplifying it way too much? The idea about jumper cables, as extreme as it may be, seems brilliant for this discussion. If they work, and they should to some extent at least, it would take away a lots of wire statements frequently thrown around on many a thread. |
b4icu, "...you really think that giving away this formula is a brilliant idea, to satisfy your personal need to know?"I do not think it is a brilliant idea but I also see no harm, unless a person is starting a business with that formula. Of course, there is no desperate need to disclose it either way, the world will go on. I am not arguing about validity of questioning and establishing the formula, but the topic and intention of the original post is less than clear. It got even less clear over the ensuing posts. Those people who do buy stories and expensive cables may be happy, too. The value of those cables perceived by you and me may be different than value of those cables perceived by them. It works for them, if for nothing else then because the cable came with a story. Many products are marketed like that and buyers are not only happy but proud, too. The tone of your posts suggests that you dislike expensive cable manufacturers approach and stories they attach to their products. You imply you, to say it simplified, have a formula that is far superior to their stories. As a neutral observer, I would say that putting your facts/formula out would go much further in debunking the myths than just saying "they are bad and I figured it all out". It would simply give more credibility to your statements. I have no personal need to know the formula or any theory behind wires, but I do hope that han_n does find your calculations useful. It would definitely be much-needed first step in some meaningful direction. By the way, out of sheer curiosity, how did you guess that I am "Mr" and not "Mrs"? |
"Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup?"The sound comes out of the speakers. What is this thread about? Four sentences out of which three are statements which seem to imply some undisputable facts. The fourth one is the question above which is either suspiciously easy to answer, or is too vague to answer. If there is some formula, what is the harm of giving it away? Is this some marketing scheme? |
