No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
It goes back to cable manufaturars, mostly provide no relevant data! to sales and the users. None will answer this! Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup? I think I've figured it out.
I'll try to describe the current state of the speaker's cable industry.
After all, if we want to know where we are heading, we need to know from where
we are coming…
No speaker's cable maker, have a tiniest clue of what cable we need.
They also do not know why one cable sounds better over the other. They have no
idea what are the electrical (engineering) values that make one cable better
over another. An absolute groping in the darkness. For that reason, they
"invented" a lot of preposterous pleas to cover the misunderstanding
and ignorance: directional cables, cryogenic treatment, cooper purity, skin
effect, burn in and more. None would hold a scientific confirmation or
any evidence. No other field using wires got such an attention. From
NASA and space programs, to the highest level of airborne and military equipment,
life saving medical equipment or cell phones. Only audio cables did.
Most speaker cables are made thin (12-14 AWG) because it is easy to use
with spades and banana plugs that are common in the market. They won't go thinner,
as it would be ridicules but they won't go thicker as it is difficult to do. So
we ended up with an average 12-14 AWG, regardless of what we actually need.
At the same time, speaker cables (unfortunately also other cables) were
priced absurdly high. As this is the holy grail of the audio industry. I
must admit that marketing went well and the industry flourishes. A ridiculous
situation with poor consequences.
Now comes the worst part, after understanding that the speaker cable
makers were fooling us since dome of days. A speaker cable is actually crucial
for a good sound. A poor cable can ruin it and it really does. At a time the cable
makers were title their product as High End, they were practically destroying a
good sound system that could sound terrific, with a "so wrong" cable
that would prevent up to 50%-80% of its potential. If they call a cable that
kills 50%-80% of the sound a high end cable, what should they call a cable that
delivers the absolute 100%?
Unfortunately it is not their cable, so you have seen some of those say
on previous posts. Such words, are shallow and do not tells you the truth. They
only cover over a mediocre or bad product wrapped with pretentious
words.
To show you the difference, between a ready purchased, reputed cable
maker cable and a cable that is DIY (less complete in structure) but of the
right electrical properties, here are two testimonies:
Mr. Wilson, who exchanged a
Transparent Audio Laboratory 14 AWG 12 feet long cable, that costs About $250,
with a 0 AWG 2.5m long cable:
"My initial impressions: It’s
like having new speakers. The sound is pure and clean. Minute details are
suddenly apparent. The range is amazing. Highs, mid-tones and a new bass that I
didn’t know my speakers were capable of. I wonder now what I need the new …
subwoofer for!
It feels that for all these years my
speakers were being chocked and suddenly they can breathe and have their full
voice.
To say I’m happy about my new speaker cables is an understatement. I’m
thrilled. Thank you for building these superbly engineered cables to unleash
the full potential of my home sound system".
Mr. keppertup
who replaced a 16 AWG 1.5n long cable with a 0 AWG cable of the same length,
that cost him $57.00 ($45 plus shipping):
"The results are stunning. The amount of undistorted energy
filling the room, is jaw dropping. I keep turning up the volume to levels
that previously irritated my ears, and experience no irritation. In the
modified lyrics of B.B. King, “The shrill is gone.” My wife is hearing
new detail in cuts she has listened to many times before".
No other components or placement
were involved, only one speaker cable over the other. This kind of testimony reflects
my say of a maker so called "Hi End" speaker cable, replaced with an unlabeled
cable that delivers 100% and not only 20% or 50%. I would grade those testimonies
as 10/10.
This may not be that
dramatic to all. If those testimonies were on the upper side of the scale, Mr. conradnash
had a experience like 7/10. Not bad at all for that kind of investment.
I look at it, as I'm
holding in my left hand, the speaker cables industry, with all that history and
tell and my theory and cables made accordingly in my right hand. This is a clue
of where we are heading, and from where we are coming.
Let me share a thought with you. When anyone starts saying no one else in an entire industry has a clue, but he and he alone, then that person has lost all credibility. It is not reasonable or logical to suggest that you alone possess the knowledge and integrity needed for correct speaker cable design. You are saying only you have that knowledge and integrity. Only you!
That is a remarkable thought and perhaps so remarkable as to expose your personal shortcoming. We all have shortcomings and yours has just been exposed more clearly than ever before in this thread. You must see the absurdity in your proclamation that you alone have the needed integrity and wisdom? I hope you can see and own it. A measure of humility would go a long way here.
This industry has many brilliant minds. Yes, many who hold advanced degrees, have personal integrity and a sincere passion for extracting the best sound possible from a stereo system. You are not the sole person with such a resume and righteous motive.
You seem like like a smart and well educated man. In an audio world full of ideas I and others are opened minded enough to consider and try out your idea. That has not changed for me. However what has changed for me is my assessment of your wisdom and perhaps grip on reality.
b4icu No speaker’s cable maker, have a tiniest clue of what cable we need. They also do not know why one cable sounds better over the other. They have no idea what are the electrical (engineering) values that make one cable better over another. An absolute groping in the darkness. For that reason, they "invented" a lot of preposterous pleas to cover the misunderstanding and ignorance: directional cables, cryogenic treatment, cooper purity, skin effect, burn in and more. None would hold a scientific confirmation or any evidence. No other field using wires got such an attention. From NASA and space programs, to the highest level of airborne and military equipment, life saving medical equipment or cell phones. Only audio cables did.
>>>>>>>What a drama queen! In the first place you act as though all cable manufacturers are colluding or choreographing some sort of conspiracy designed to trick young naive audiophiles. But that is far from the truth since cable manufactures - in reality, not your paranoid fantasy - tend to develop and evolve their own theories and manufacturing processes over a long period of time based on their own experience. They rarely agree with each other. Many cable makers employ cryogenics, but some don’t. Most cable makers probably don’t control directionality. And there are many differences in purity and type of metal conductor among and within cable makers. You appear to be, judging by your own words, the poster child for anti audiophile naysayers.
Further, there is no requirement for “scientific confirmation,” as you call it. The most obvious mistake in your reasoning is that audio is the only field that is interested in how cables sound. capish? So you can throw out all the other things, military, NASA, hospitals, whatever. Follow? If you told the military or NASA they must use uber thick cables as you suggest they would laugh you out of the office.
grannyring & geoff: He has 3 people that have tried and approved of his design & theory. After many posts and thousands of words posted over less than a month, the OP has the proof, no doubt and all other cable companies are bunk. It is now fact, end of arguement. I would not be surprised that ofter a few weeks, the three that engaged in the test, will have different speaker cable in their systems.
Sorry for your long post. I know it is hard to accept when someone claim such a thing. I had asked this question, of what shall be the right speaker cable for long and never been answered properly. So I took things in my own hand and figured it out. When that happened, I realized how much the industry leaks knowledge on the subject. I never said that the people in this industry are not smart or gifted. I only say that none put the effort to find out the truth over this subject. It is most likely, that if they would, they might come out with something. But so far, they didn’t.
I would expect that you prove me wrong by bringing up someone (from the industry) that has the knowhow. From that long list of smart people, you proclaim from the industry, you can’t point at one who has the solution. You don’t for a reason. So you don’t have even one to prove me wrong. On the other hand, those testimonies prove me right. The more will do it and share, the better. At the same time, the cable market is not doing any good to this disturbing question either: What is the right cable for me?
Even thou you put it a bit awkward I am not shamed but proud of it. I am sure that if you would do this discovery, you might have been proud too. I am even more proud I could help already some to get a way better sound with their DIY cable. You have no idea, what those testimonies mean to me. With a little help, people all over, in the US, Canada and the UK did it and they are happy. I’ll remind you that it is all for free.
If you would read my post on the previous page over a job interview at
RAFAEL (you can go to their site and see what they do! – From space to military
at the top technology available. They developed the iron dome and the wind shield
systems), you would find out that me telling them to use a shorter and thicker
cable, over a problem they presented, was my ticket in. Unfortunately, your
understanding on the subject is so dull that you can't tell left from right. I
hope it is not too late for you to study.
Ok since you have claimed to solve the cable question: "What is the right cable for me"? Please solve these .... What is the right car for me?
What is the right
boat for me?
What is the right
watch for me?
What is the right
house for me?
What is the right amplifier for me?
What is the right
job for me?
What is the right
city for me?
What is the right
mate for me? What is the right for me?
OK here’s a little factoid since we’re so engrossed in AUDIO cables. VIDEO cables are FAR more demanding of the TRANSMISSION of the SIGNAL relative to AUDIO. Low capacitance and resistance are REQUIRED to do this and over long distances. If such cables work well for VIDEO, they will also work well for AUDIO. VIDEO transmission has had MUCH R&D to succeed.
All very interesting and somewhat entertaining...............b4icu MAY have a valid point concerning what is best or at least better, vs what is PRACTICAL..........As some have already seen, connecting "0" awg to any gear I've ever seen is at the least challenging. They're simply not designed for welding cable, per se, so cable makers are forced by physical constraints to work with what fits, even (possibly) knowing that they could do better.............just a theory............Still haven't tried this myself, as I have other priorities at the moment, but I do plan to give it a whorl at some point...............worst case it does nothing impressive and didn't cost much to find out. Best case, a little money well spent and my system sounds better................We can argue theory, intelligence, credentials, integrity, etc. all day.............Bottom line, as with everything audio, is that you will hear an improvement, or you won't.........It's a cheap enough tweek to roll the dice............How many tweeks do you already have collecting dust, what's one more if it works??
Cardas, AQ, Furutech and others make their own connectors and could easily make a connector to handle up to 0 gauge if they wanted to or felt they needed to. They would love to sell such huge cables and connectors and could charge big bucks for them. They would make even more money. This whole idea of huge gauge, when needed, would be a brand new marketing and sales opportunity for them to capitalize on. The argument suggesting they only make and sell smaller gauge wire and connectors out of nessesity is just plain out of step with the truth. The truth is these companies just don’t buy into this notion based on their own base of knowledge and testing. Are they right? Is the OP right? I think various methods and designs can sound great.
Mapleshade, Michael Green Audio and others passionately believe that the smallest of gauge wire makes for the best sound. Polar opposite of the OP. Just their particular theory and notion.
Thus far we have a couple of examples where the OP style cable sounded better than the prior cable being used. Problem is in two of these cases the original cables were nothing special. In looking at pictures one set had bare copper wire ends that appeared to be completely oxidized and needed to be cut away and re-stripped for better sound.
Looking forward to seeing the OP cables being compared to higher quality, properly built cables that have been well maintained.
I agree with @shadowcat2016 and am planning a build. It is fun for me both as an avid DIYer and cable seller.
@glupson,I am very well aware.But going through all the pages, there is a lot of confusion and conflict. Anyone who opposes the OP is seen as a dealer. Only OP has the best technology. Not sure if he can prove that by comparing or challenging anyone. I also don't see OP's system for the actual wire he has created or using.
It seems that a lot of posts were clutter. Not a big deal. Lesson was learned, especially when those who wrote them have a clear interest on this thread. From now on I’ll try to avoid them. Let’s call it spam.
I’ll rather concentrate on answering people’s questions, of what cable I recommend to their setup, and add new sharing to my table and post it, with comments if any.
Regarding some big names in the industry that do their own spades and banana plugs, I doubt it. It is most likely they have an OEM source, to order and buy from. However, even if they do make spades and banana plugs, it is not a good idea to connect those directly to the thick cable (like a 4-0 AWG). From my point of view, they never wonted too, as they never thought this is the solution for the speaker cables problem. If they would, they most likely would try it already.
If audio signals and video signals would be the same, most likely we
would need only one name for them. They have a different nature, especially
that speaker cables deliver a higher power / current than a signal cable, like
an interconnect cable or a cable TV.
For the same reason, USB cables are different than video, and so is LAN.
All for a reason. Video and interconnect cables need shield (EMI / RFI) while
speaker cables don't. The idea to put them all on the same pile and assume that
if it is a cable it can be any cable, is basically wrong. Every type of cable
has its individual design and rules, its individual property and its individual
task.
Thanks for coming forward and saying you are a cable seller. Just
for a curiosity, how do you match and offer a speaker cable to a customer?
Could you please describe the process and the method to do that match? Thanks.
I tend to agree to your say regarding the so far made DIY cables to be properly built cables
that have been well maintained (for under $60 they are very nice and good).
They can do to improve that DIY in time. You say "higher quality". Do
you mean higher quality built?
What is higher quality cable, if the new DIY tried here provided way
better sound than the previous cable. The only parameter that a speaker cable
has as a quality is its resistance, to match the amp's spec. Nothing is of a higher quality than a
perfect resistance match.
The cable I built and sent to Vancouver BC, my friend took it to a Hi-Fi
store to compare it. The sales man used a Nordost cable worth $3,000 to compare
with. My cable performed better than the Nordost. It was not a perfect match to
that amp. (Anthem) that they hooked up with. Most likely that the Nordost was
even a worst match. When my friend hooked it up to his amp (Emotiva) things
really got nice. You can read his testimony…a few posts earlier.
@b4icu. I voice my cables by ear. I use what some refer to as “tone” wire and change the gauge, construction and connectors based on what folks want sonically. I am a custom builder. I love the sound of Duelund stranded and tinned copper in oil impregnated cotton and use it often.
I also perform modifications to speaker crossovers and tube gear. I know what parts sound like based on my long experiece using them and match this knowledge with what the customer is looking for. Yes, I use my ears and known sonic differences between types and brands of wire, caps, resistors, inductors, rectifiers etc....
It is just me making cables out of a spare bedroom driven by a passion to help fellow Aphiles enjoy their systems more fully for reasonable money. Very small part time business that is gratifying.
I assume this method of "voice cables by ear" would apply when you sale a complete system, to include the amp and the speakers.
What if a customer comes in just for a speaker cable, and has a gear that you are not so familiar with its sound?
If I may summarize your method, it is mostly based on your intuition and some past experience that is based on your personal likes and dislikes. I have a little problem with that. You may know by now, that two people can listen to a system playing in an environment, and have different say about the very same sound. Wouldn’t you feel better if you would have a blue print or a formula in hand, that would specify by engineering methods what is the optimum cable that customer really needs?
What is the thickest cable you can offer a customer? How much that cable cost?
Wouldn’t you feel better if you would have a blue print or a formula in hand, that would specify by engineering methods what is the optimum cable that customer really needs?
When you find one then by all means clue us in. If everyone had the same opinion of how the “optimum” cable sounds then we would only need one cable manufacturer.
No, based on my customers likes and dislikes and areas they want to improve on. They know how their rig sounds and what they want more or less of etc...Many thrilled customers as my feedback testifies to.
I sell lots of ICs and USB cables right now.
There is no blueprint that can handle human preferences and the countless system iterations and room environments that exist. It always comes down to the ears of the customer are our own ears. Always.
Sorry you missed some of this tread, explaining that every amp-speaker
has its optimum cable, by engineering calculation. The tweaks of a sound system
shall be done other than on a copper wire between the amp and the speakers. No,
no one cable for all. The cables are different by the equipment they serve and length
required.
Not to say, that the claim is of having a speaker cable that would bring
out 100% of a system, rather than have a wire you or others might suggest, that
you think is good sounding, but would deliver only 20%-50% of that system's
potential.
Please be kind to read the sharing on this thread, of people who made
the change and were kind to share. None of the cable you are talking about
would get this kind of improvement.
Do any cable maker provides with their product some guidance,
instructions or suggestions, what cable may fit best a given system or be the
right answer for a customer need?
Or they leave it all in your (and many other sales people) hands?
In your words, if someone would come and say that his sound is on the
bright side, you would suggest a speaker cable that would solve that? Or if a
customer would ask for a cable that would bring to live the highs, you have a
solution for that, with a speaker cable?
So for a customer that would like to improve his bass. Have it stronger
and tighter?
Could you please answer what is the thicker cable you have to offer and
what it costs?
Wire alone cannot possibly cure all the ills or preferences of a given system. The right cabling can help directionally get to the end goal.
Even various 0 gauge cabling will sound different based on the cable’s design and materials employed. A tinned finely stranded copper will sound different than un-tinned stranded copper. The gauge of the strands can impact the sound in obvious ways. Copper clad aluminum cabling will sound far different than any cables mentioned above. All these cables will sound different even if they are all 0 gauge. We haven’t even talked about the outer jacket material which also impacts the sound.
@mitch2 and others know this from experience.
You can see my ads here on Agon. I have built several sets of 7 gauge speaker cables. 12 and 10 gauge seem most popular. I am interested in trying thicker gauge and will test over time. Over the years I have learned that there is no ONE WAY to build anything in Audio that is always the best for all people. The best you can hope for is a recipe that pleases as many Aphiles as possible.
Sorry you missed some of this tread, explaining that every amp-speaker has its optimum cable, by engineering calculation.
You are in fact correct, I previously had only read parts of the thread, so I went back and read the whole thing. Between ROTFLMFAO and taking aspirin to make my headache go away, I learned there are apparently 3 lucky beneficiaries of the secret engineering calculation that primarily shows just about everyone (except the three) is using speaker cables that are too small. Not sure why 6 pages of posts were required to uncover this sensational revelation but hey, whatever it takes to move the industry forward.
It all started in 1977 (or there about) with Polk Cobra Cable, high capacitance, loudspeaker cable from Japan, followed by Fulton Gold 4ga., then Monster. It is interesting that after 40+ years and hundred of thousands of speaker cables bought and used, that this secret formula has just been discovered and released. This cure all theory is backed by a half dozen experimenters that have given early praise of first impressions. It has been my experience that long term use will reveal warts that go undetected during the initial experience.
@b4icu Ok, so let us agree that the wire gauge (cable resistance) is an indicator, and let's say that that has been addressed, so what is your opinion about cable materials, OCC copper, Silver, Silver alloys (Silver/gold) cable construction, possible vibration reducing measures etc. Would you agree that the above variances could possibly result in audible differences? I don't want to touch on other issues like burn in or other possible treatments which are claimed by others to have an impact on the overall sound. At least I find this thread interesting, it provides us with another "point of view". It may or may not have been a coincidence that when many years ago when I bought the -most likely- biggest gauge speaker cables on the market, that I heard a real improvement with the speakers I was using at that point of time (B&W 802D with Bryston 7B2). I've used these cables ever since, but as you mentioned before, when using with Ribbons different rules apply. (Just for your information as you had asked some time ago about the global feedback settings on my M1, I have checked and found that many month ago I had chosen 0% Global Feedback. But as mentioned earlier, I could not really hear differences with my ears and my speakers. Again, thanks for your contribution, it's one of the more meaningful threads at this moment.
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