No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need

Mr. han_n

I think that all the combination of the elements (cooper/silver/gold) is only to have a certain resistance. If that resistance is equal with two cables built different and from different elements, they will sound the same on a given system.

Regarding the feedback of the M1, it is interesting. It might be the strongest sales point of this amp. and for you any setup from 0% to full scale feedback, doesn't make any different. why is this amp. better for you than any other amp.?

Mr. grannyring

I think very different on the matter. A sound of a system should not be played with speaker cables or any cables. Hi-end pushed away the old (70’s) tone controls, EQ and other options to fiddle with the sound, on demand for purity. No distortion, no phase shift and no unnatural effects to the source. So why let some cable, we know nothing about its properties, or how it affects sound take command?

Using ears to measure the sound quality. You may know that our ears are not a measurement instrument. Have you done lately a hearing test by lab? You know that a man’s hearing is dropping with age and may be damaged by some noise to exposed to in the past. This method of accepting someone’s word claiming he has the golden years, would need more proof than a calculation method.

As I said before (I don’t like repeating myself), when a speaker cable has a higher resistance than it should (not optimal vs. the amplification), it disables the system to deliver its full potential. The way I see it, that you play with that figure and practically do more damage than good. Who wants a sound system that he paid for $10,000.- to be used at only 20% or 50%? It’s like throwing $5,000 - $8,000 to the garbage can. I would like to believe that if you put this question to all clients, they would ask for the full 100%.

At a time you have the impression that you are getting someone’s system better, you just play along that range of how much of the optimal sound it will deliver. Even when you apply a cable that you and the customer likes, you may have no idea where are you on that optimal scale between almost nothing to 100%. It is a blind shot in the dark. I would rather take an approach I can deliver the full 100% every time (using some math rather than be depended on someone else likes and experience).

With my way, I can not only calculate, what the optimal cable is, but also calculate a given cable, how good or far it is from being optimal. That may give you an idea of some of your recent recommendations, how close and good, or how far and bad you did.

You never answered me of what is the thickest cable you got in your shop and how much that costs?

However, you did rest my case about no one really know what is the right cable especially those who make them. If I would try several dealers, with different experience and taste to sound, I would end up with as many different cables as dealers. To my perception its wrong!

Speaker cables and their sonic influence.

A speaker cable is a wire. It has no components (well, some do have a box on the cable, like MIT), and no power source. So it is a passive element. A speaker cable roll is to pass the amplifier's output to the speakers 1:1.

Any cable that doesn't do that is actually attenuating that amp's output in some way. If you connect two (or more cables) between the same amp and speakers, and they sound different, all but one, or all do some damage by not passing that signal 100% to the speakers. Only that could explain the difference.

Capacitance (C) and inductance (L) even if there is some, its value is very small. The capacitance is in pF (10-9) and the inductance in uH (10-6). Such small value, in a circuit that the amp's output resistance is close to null, has no audible (more than +/-0.1dB) effect on FR.

In a sound system we have plenty of elements that do influence the end result. It starts with the speakers of choice, the room we place them in, the placement of the speakers in that room, and then the electronics. Why do I need more variables, like cables to modify our sound? Where did you go wrong with that list, ending up looking for a remedy with the cables, and also willing to pay for that?

As we gave up the EQ stuff, when each slide had its clear frequency and gain set, we are getting back an EQ (sought of) with no idea what it really does on the frequency band or at the level of attenuation to our sound. We just follow blind folded our ears or a sales guy say, without having the tiniest clue of where we were and what do we ended up with. Throwing a dice has fewer options!

Mr. kosst_amojan

Please watch your language. I gave you no titles and kept this thread respectful. This will be your last slip.

A speaker cable is a wire. Wires should not have other than resistance value. What turns a resistive component into impedance are capacitance and inductive elements. A cable that brings lots of that is a bad cable. Most cables (that has the red and black wires together into a single cable, are having some of that as they are having some isolation and they tend to be a twisted pair). My idea as presented to your convenience DIY, are singles!

But even if you use a cable with such impedance properties, they are tiny. As the amplifier's output resistance is very low (exclude tube and tube alike) those impedance values are negligible. So they are with the capacitors and coils values found inside the speaker (crossover).

I wouldn't put my money on that cable impedance, unless you can prove some FR variation by calculations or measurements. It may have a FR deviation on interconnect cables. They are connected between two relatively higher input and output resistance of the components they connect.

An audio component input resistance is of 10k Ohms or more (A MM is 47k Ohms). A speaker's input impedance is 4-8 Ohms. So is the output resistance ratio. Interconnects have way higher impedance values than speaker cables, due to the shield and structure. So what may apply to an interconnect cable, is far from being correct for a speaker cable. Please be kindly reminded that this thread is for speaker cables.

I will report back on my 0 gauge cables in the future based on how they sound to my ears🙂 just the same as others have done here with your recipe. You have but one recipe in a speaker cable cookbook offering near endless recipe ideas. Remember, you are just one recipe and it may or may not taste the best based on the taster’s preferences.

@b4icu Why I choose the M1 ?
The M1 provides me the highest dynamics and is more transparent than any other amp I've had or heard. But I have to admit that the difference may also be caused partially by the pre-amp, which I switched at the same time. I have a set-up using everything from the same manufacturer, and this combination is just amazing. 

Mr. grannyring

Thanks.

When do you think you will get that 0 AWG cable and share with us?

Please be kindly reminded to use my format to present that data. Thanks.

Mr. han_n

At the time you were looking into the M1, did you know of FM Acoustics?

They are also Swiss made and have some excellent stuff.

For those who are worried of a speaker cables impedance (none resistance values, of capacitance and inductance, in addition to the resistance):

Capacitance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor#Parallel-plate_model

The Parallel-plate model, of two thin parallel conductive plates resembling the two speaker wires (red and black) with a dielectric material in between (the cable's isolators).

The structure of such speaker cable is provided by how the two wires are embedded into the isolator. Some are round and twisted, some are flat and are one next to the other (not top over the other!). This is mostly defined by the length and width of the cable (equal area of a capacitor plates) the distance in between (the two wires) and the isolating material that gets in between. It is always about two of them: the red wire isolator and the black wire isolator.

Some designs separate the two cables (my DIY approach), to be of two different cables. Then they are apart from each other and not run in parallel as with some other designs.

In most cables, such a capacitance is of a few Pico farads (10-9) and it is a very small value in general, especially when refer to a voltage source as a SS, with very low output resistance and at audio frequencies (up to 100kHz).

  

Inductance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductance

The Mutual inductance of two parallel straight wires is the more relevant to speaker cables, unless you have a long cable coiled on the floor. Again, if the two are separate (my DIY approach) the inductance is null. In some cables that would run the two wires in parallel as in flat cables, of the twisted pair approach, it is more of a concern. But even there, at most times the value of such Inductance is of micro Henry (10-6). Also a tiny value compared to the cross over coils and the speaker drivers. The value is too small to be of a concern with most SS amplification and the audio frequency range.

The ideal cable would be one with no Inductance and no Capacitance (also no resistance). Presence of such impedance of a speaker cable (or any cable) might work as a filter, depends of topology and values. No one wants that over a cable. Some of the amplifiers (tube and tube alike) are more susceptible to cable impedance and those would color the sound. At those cases a negligible thing might become noticeable.

A cable that would present a capacitance between two ends of a speaker cable (as seen by the amp.) is called Low Pass Filter (LPF) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter

The higher the FR, the more of that energy is absolved by the capacitor. If a cable is presented with an inductance, it would be serial. That is also a LPF. (Ref. to the RLC model).

Summary:  

Cables with impedance are less good for a 1:1 transfer function as a speaker cable.

Separate cables as my DIY approach, would be the best to decrease any impedance to null.

Cables that are molded in a parallel structure, flat or in twisted pairs, may have an impedance factor. Try to avoid them as much as possible.

A cable's impedance (of significant values) would act as a LPF on an audio signal and will dim the highs vs. other FR.

From now on, please keep the impedance issue out of my cables solution. They do not apply.

@b4icu I have not had the chance to compare the FM Acoustics directly to the CH Precision using the same speakers. It’s a known fact that FM Acoustics produces very nice electronics, they have been around for many years as well. I’m quite sure that a full line up of FM Acoustics would perform very well indeed, and so there are still quite a few other manufacturers who produce very nice equipment at the highest level. The point is that they are not always available in the country of residence, so choices are not always as divers as in other (your) countries. What I usually do is use electronics from the same origin, so either a full set up of brand A, or a full set up of brand B. That’s the reason I currently play with C1/X1, D1/X1, L1/X1, M1 all made by CH Precision. (Only the bass towers use Gryphon dedicated amplifiers). Cables are either by CH Precision or Gryphon. Only the speaker cables are made by Kharma, and are also the oldest components in the line up. Usually a manufacturer will do its utmost to "tune" the components to each other, and often a combination of such equipment may perform better than a mixture of different brands. Another point to consider is that it also looks good, to me that’s important too. Speakers may be an exception, and are of a different brand. (Gryphon Pendragon). Sorry, this is a little off topic, but as you had asked for it ;)

He keeps banging on about damping factor too when it is NOT predictive as to how an amp, cable, speaker will sound. In fact, damping factor means nothing. To my ears, those amps with the highest DF sound like (your favorite scatological noun here) because they implement excessive feedback to control an otherwise unstable circuit!

Mr. stevecham

It is not me to invent DF or plant it into your amplifier you already own. If your DF is achieved by feedback, it is the amplifier designer and maker's choice and not mine. This thread is not about modifying a given amplifier's DF to make you happy. All here have an Amp. with a given DF, whatever it is.

There is nothing wrong if a well designed amplifier has a high DF even if it is achieved by feedback. Feedback is not a bad word. Some excellent stuff out there is just made like that, to include the M1.

Whatever you like it or not, getting a cable by others experiences (more or less, whatever they might say) or by a listening judgment is so wrong. A speaker cable shall be tailored by the amplifier it is connected to, with calculated values and characteristics. Not empirical guess or a blind listening cession. Sorry if that is against your convention. See no issue for you to try it and hear it by yourself. For those who already did, it is a win-win situation.

Mr. stevecham

Why do you come back with a say of DF when you own a Manley NEO 250 with 1.5% THD and a DF of 14.8! https://www.manley.com/hifi/n250/

None of this thread is relevant in your case. So what is your goal in your last post? I thought that we were well done on page 7.

Once you have proved all cable manufacturers wrong how do you think they are going to feed their children?

I don't think you have any social conscience.

Mr. pesky_wabbit

I would like to think that the cables industry will catch up and fix the wrong, to get things done properly. Not a big deal. It is not that all the sudden we won't need cables any more. We just need a different type of cable to be made per spec. That spec. shall be calculated and not guessed.

On that issue, without undermined your concern to be fair with the cables industry, what about us, the customers that were told wrong so long and been asked to pay an arm and a leg for that? Do you think it was fair?

I also would check how we would trust such an industry that had no idea for so long, what they were doing and taking advantage of us. What about all the urbn myths that they spread efficiently. So efficiently that people brought it up on this thread as an argument! You don't mind about all that?

"In fact, damping factor means nothing."

I know close to nothing about damping factor but am perplexed by such a finite statement. Why do manufacturers of not-so-shabby products mention damping factor then? Is there any reason why a manufacturer of an amplifier would write in a promo material that "damping factor was increased from 205 to 260"? I know it is a promo material, but they get their stripes not on those numbers most of the time.

I’ve been buying high end cables for forty years and never spent as much as what it costs for the extra thick car battery type cables. The whole premise that audiophiles are being duped into paying great amounts for cables is ridiculous and simply not true. Of course, their are some audiophiles who buy very expensive cables. This is especially true since the Great Depression. Just like some people buy Ferraris and Lamborghinis. But they’re outliers. They don’t represent a trend or average or anything. Most people have learned to be financially conservative. We buy used. Hel-loo! I don’t see too many audiophiles buying $100,000 turntables, either, these days especially. You’re the only one who’s not happy. Everybody else is happy. Where’s the beef? 🐂

Cable manufacturers have provided more bang for the buck by evolving the whole cable technology, you know, by incorporating very pure metals, advanced geometries, long crystal copper, advanced welding techniques, cryogenics, controlling wire directionality and establishing data for cable burn in. What’s not to like? Revel in your time! 😀

After reading and following this thread from the beginning, I still fail to understand how a fraction of an ohm (or a few milliohms for that matter) can have such a profound effect? When you consider the average speaker's actual impedance curve does not adhere to the rated impedance. My 10GA cables are estimated to pass around 60 or 70 amps. Will a 300A rating make difference? Do I risk the threat of copper thieves breaking into my house and stealing my speaker cable? Please excuse my rambling

Good info! Winter is coming. Maybe with 4/0 cables, I can jump start my car using my (10 output tubes per monoblock) OTLs playing some heavy metal?

Mr. glupson

DF is an amplifier design and making matter that may advertised whatever they felt its right.

The high DF is all about controlling the speaker. In electronics, the common idea about it is: the more the better. (Just the opposite of THD or noise: which is the less the better). However, some likes better the sound of amplification with higher THD and very low DF: tubes. That’s Ok too.

The new kind of D-class (digital amplifiers, using direct DAC as PWM) have DF of 5000! Even thou those need to be related more like a DF of 1000 (way of calculation).

I'm not into say what amp is better for you (it might be another thread) but I do say, for the amp you already own, what would be the best speaker cable.

Mr. flapjack

What could be better than a dual purpose cable?

If you would read my thread, you could already know that tube amplification have a very low DF, so you could practically borrow your line phone cable and use it for your speakers. If that would be also a long one, you could use it in between listening to your tubes and speaking on the phone, to hang your wet laundry.

Looks like you have altered your exell sheet. Your original spreadsheet had 3 participants your game, you have deleted Willson and now only have conradnash & keppertup on the latest version. It looks like the satisfaction level has dropped a half point too, from 9 to 8.5. You also removed keppertop's cost for the project. What's up with that?

https://imgur.com/a/dPO2o1p

Mr. stevecham

Your post is way off the subject and your attitude is rude. But I'll clear a few facts about your Manley Neo 250 with your speakers. https://www.manley.com/hifi/n250/

At a DF of 14.8 / 17.2 (output resistance = 0.5 Ohms) and a 4 Ohms load @ 218W, 1/8 or 12.5% of that power is dropping on the amp's and 7/8 on the speaker. So you are wasting 27W of the 218W. This is way the cable in your case has no significance. I really would care, if I would you, in such case about the DF.

At the time tube amplification first introduced, the amps had very moderate power: 10W-20W. At that time the DF was the same and it was not a problem. Some designs looked into tube as "what was missing is more power", made it to deliver a 250W but over looked all other aspects.

Your speakers demand way more than 1W. They are very demanding on impedance and low efficiency. So why would you bring up the 218W power, if you think you need only 1W? It is true that as close as you get to 0W, all problems are gone!

The spec. defines 1.5% THD (it's a lot!) and I can't hear it because I'm 10,000 miles away. But anything above 0.2% is audible. 1.5% is a bad figure for today amps.

b4icu

"But anything above 0.2% is audible. 1.5% is a bad figure for today amps."

,As true as it may be, don’t forget that people tend to like some sound so that particular distortion, as presented in numbers, may actually be beneficial and preferred by a given owner. It may not be exactly what came into the amplifier, but may be what makes an owner enjoy more. In 2018, it may be possible to make it closer to perfection, but that perfection may not be pleasant for someone. In some way like putting sugar in the lemonade or some spice in the dish recipe. Others may not like it, but who are they to say anything.

Mr. glupson

Gentlemen don't argue about facts and feelings. So as a fact, 1.5% THD is not good. If someone likes it – Shall it be.

Audio as a concept has two ways to go:

The first would take the challenge to try reproducing the source as close as possible.

The second would claim, that this goal can't be achieved, so let's go for a sound we like.

I'm Ok with both ways to some extent.

It is hard for me to like a sound that I know up front it is contaminated with "bad" stuff:

High THD, high IMD, high background noise, limited bandwidth, limited dynamic range, bad DF etc'. Than when we go for tube it is also a life cycle that could be different by the day. I liked it so much last week but since, I can't get again the same sound…

At the same time, it is impossible to claim that a 1.5% THD is loyal to the origin! The origin had no THD. This figure is mostly get bigger as some is coming from vinyl with 3.5-5% THD and goes to a speaker that might have some THD too. Yes, people like it. I don't.

I've heard a say after a live concert that the piano sounds better on his system! Well, is it good for him, or not so good for him?

Looks like you have been visiting The Emotiva Lounge. It seems you have been making "friends" there too. It is beginning to seem you are trying to push your "secret formula" on us, in hopes of positive reviews so you can start selling speaker cables. You where a bit more revealing of your intentions over there.

"Tell me what amplifier and speakers you use, the desired length, and I'll tell you what AWG would do. I may also give you a quote for such a cable, if you would like to have one."

"I am not a cable manufacturer (yet)."

Yet you disparage cable makers here. Maybe, after all, you are just another cable maker with a different spiel ...

Emotiva Lounge

I may visit any lounge and as many I wish. I never in my life sold a cable. My story and claim is the same. Nothing had changed. I do disparage an industry (speaker cables) that has no idea of what they are doing, why one cable is better than another, tell a bunch of urban myths and charge an arm and a leg for that. Do you respect that? It looks that you do!

At least I can say that the dealers at the Emotiva Lounge were fair enough to come forward. Not like some other guys here that just fight me with anything they can grab, to throw at me. None of your accusations would stick. I am saying my truth, I always did.

You don't! even the excel tables were advertised in the oposite way you claimed. So you take bits from here and bits from there and try to get them alingned with your agenda, no matter what. Even if that is a lie. 

"Nothing had changed. I do disparage an industry (speaker cables) that has no idea of what they are doing, why one cable is better than another, tell a bunch of urban myths and charge an arm and a leg for that."

-You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I and many others here would disagree.

"At least I can say that the dealers at the Emotiva Lounge were fair enough to come forward. Not like some other guys here that just fight me with anything they can grab, to throw at me. None of your accusations would stick. I am saying my truth, I always did."

- As far as I know, grannyring is the only one on this thread selling cables, he did come forward and uses the AudioGon classifieds. He voices his cables based on listening, the way most of us like to decide what sounds best to us. You do make some questionable claims, based on a ’secret’ formula.

"You don’t! even the excel tables were advertised in the oposite way you claimed. So you take bits from here and bits from there and try to get them alingned with your agenda, no matter what. Even if that is a lie."

- I have a screen shot of the first excel table you posted first and the second one you posted inplace of the first, they are different. Do I need to post them here for the forum members to read? I have no agenda and I am not lying. 

From your posts in the Emotiva Lounge & here, makes me think you might have one.

This thread has three angles:

1. The cables industry: Doing cables and sale them, do not understand the product we need and keep us in the dark with urban myths.

   They can keep the situation as is: Good for them.

   Change the way they do cables: Good for us, the customers.

    

2. Me, the one opening this thread. I have a way to calculate that cable and for those who got the courage to try it, the results were always beneficial and positive.

   If you take my word: I'll be happy.

   If you don't: I am still happy.

   I gave it a try and now I understand the forces on this market. I did what I did for no profit so I cannot lose a penny.

    

3. You, the consumers. You can go either way,

   Keep buying the cables the way you did before we met, get only a part of your system potential and still go with the urban myths. Bad for you.

   Or: you can use my method and get the best out of your system, in an engineering method. Good for you.

For the clutter of some persistent annoying members, you can realize to what part they belong and why they are so persistent. Bad for them!

Your cables?

Who calculated their gauge by your equipment and length?

Who told you what is beneath that nylon net and thick plastic isolation?

What are your cable electrical characteristics?

You think that by a say you can win a technical debate, but you will need much more then that. As far, it is my calculation (and implementation accordingly) vs. your say, based on thin air and some urban myths, you can keep saying anything.

Making choices with setting a sound system by hearing.

Some components shall be selected with the ears. Like the speakers.

Some components shall not! Like the speaker cables.

The roll of speaker cables in a sound system is not to tweak the sound. As previously described, the cables are a pair of conductors that should pass 1:1 (transfer function) the audio content of the amplifier’s output to the speakers. Just as a driveshaft pass the motion from the engine to the wheels. Picking a thin cable, is like getting a thin (soft driveshaft) some of the engine power (horse power (=Watts) and torque (=DF) will be lost with a poor driveshaft. Some of the amplifier’s strength and power will be lost with a poor speaker cable.

That’s not the way to get a sonic difference. This is only playing on the range between using 100% of that amplifier’s potential to some part of it (sometimes as small as 20%!).

The right way, is to get the entire potential (100%). It makes no sense buying powerful amplifiers, spend money on that power and not using its potential.

Speaker cables can and should be tailored to your system, to fit its demand and enable the full potential of the amplifier reach the speakers. This is practically the say behind some of the sharing brought here. The change is significant to dramatic.

"Making choices with setting a sound system by hearing.

Some components shall be selected with the ears. Like the speakers. Some components shall not! Like the speaker cables."

If what you say is true, why after 40+ years of high-end cable use, the preferred way of choice is by ear and not by the numbers?

All parts of the system impact the resulting sound including, wire, cable, tubes, trannys, footers, caps, inductors etc.... Since they all impact the sound, then we should listen and make decisions. A cable is also a component and should be listened to wether 24 gauge or 0 gauge. This is after all a hobby and passion for the ears. Engineering and math will tell us an ideal amplifier for a given set of speakers based on the speakers efficiency, sensitivity, impedance curve, room size and listening volumes. Now will the mathematically chosen amp sound as good to the listener as the one he chooses based on actual listening tests? Well we all know the one picked based on actual listening tests will no doubt sound better to the individual. Cables are no different.

No I dont want to load in my system needs and have a computer printout what I should buy based on specs and numbers. Goodness no. I want to hear it.

Mr. grannnyring

Why do you say your word in plural and not in singular? The best would be if everyone would make that decision for himself. Even not by listening to a dealer!

You try to describe the audio hobby and the system building as a chaotic process that only can be sought out by listening. At a time that the number of combinations is endless. Well, it is not. There are rules that apply. It is just that there are people who know them and others who don’t. For those who don’t know the rules, others need to help them out by advice. It is mostly working well and also profitable for the one who is giving the advice, not so well for the one who is getting the advice. The journey you try to describe, in this endless possibilities jungle, just using your ears, is impossible. Most will never get there. There must be a more systematic and logical way to do this.

There is!

Whatever you like it or not, some physics rules apply and you better follow. Acoustics, power, electric compliance and more. Even with the LEGO bricks not all fit. Your desecration is required.

I’ve heard a lot this point of view, of getting to the right sound only by using hearing. This is mostly true for those who have no other way to do it, like using knowledge. Is your post actually is a declaration about yourself, only using plural to hide it?

For speaker cables that are the subject of this thread, if someone forgot, till now, you were right. From now on, there is a method (new way) to be used, by those who really want the best, not only say they have the best. Read the sharing’s and assimilate.

I only offer a new tool in your toolbox to be used and benefit from. This tool is good for speaker cables selection. Hearing is not and never have been a (measuring) tool.

Using the wrong speaker cables, have a bad sounding. I don’t buy your say that a poor engineered cable will be the one to sound best. I’m in this hobby for 45 years and I know it is not. So those who gave it a try know. What you are trying to convince me (and others) can benefit only one: the speaker cables industry! Why you don’t simply give your bank a standing order to deposit those 30% of your annual income and get the same feeling? You may save the trouble with the bank and just flash it down the toilet.