No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
b4icu Geoffkait - You can not chalange me on technical arguments, so you push it to none relevant subjects. >>Two things. I can spell challenge and non. And I pointed out your technical error regarding the relative conducting capabilities of silver and copper. You were off by 30%. Looks relevant to me. “Little errors lead to big errors.” |
@b4icu As mentioned before, the cables were made by Kharma. (grand reference speaker cable). Did not buy new, but at an auction. This is a silver/gold alloy cable, with an anti-vibration tube around it. Does it matter? I don’t know, all I know is that I’m happy with what I’m hearing. Price?? This is an old cable, which many years ago would cost US $ 20k or more, I paid about 1/10th of that amount for a 3 meter set. The diameter of the conductor going into one spade (factory terminated, and bigger spades than usual) is about 8mm. So I’m using two of that. Why? because it’s there anyway. Bought the cables years ago for another speaker set-up. By the way, in principle I don’t buy many new cables. Prices of second hand cables drop quite a bit, prices of cables at auctions are even much lower yet. Used to use Siltech cables in the past, did like those as well. Again, never bought new cables. |
Mr.
glupson Thanks. If only we could keep talking on the subject. Now most of the posts are none relevant. |
Mr.
geoffkait How low can you go? Little errors lead to big errors - No more error talking to you! |
Mr. han_n
I'd call CH Swiss to check about your M1 Amp.: " Dear Michael, Thank you for your interest in our
products. The damping factor of an amplifier being the ratio between the connected loudspeaker's impedance and the amplifier's output impedance, we can not publish a single number. We would need to publish a damping factor for each possible load (like any amplifier manufacturer should), but also for every setting of global versus local feedback ratio of our amplifier (which is user-adjustable on the fly from fully global to fully local, with 9 evenly-spaced steps in between), as this setting has a direct effect on the M1's output impedance. At full global feedback, the M1's output impedance is measured at 0.013 Ohm. So in a 8 Ohm loudspeaker, this means a damping factor of 615. At full local feedback (no global feedback at all), the M1's output impedance is 0.09 Ohm. So in a 8 Ohm loudspeaker, this means a damping factor of about 90. As a loudspeaker cable of a few meters probably has an impedance of more than 10 mOhm, it might actually have a dominant effect compared to the amplifier's output load, at full global feedback. I hope this answers your question. Best regards, Loris Stehlé" If we go for the best I would say that the M1 \'s DF is >500. But when I looked into your speakers: Gryphon Pendragon http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/media/1408/manual-pendragonv2.pdf I found that the bass unit is self amplified by a 1,000W amp. It is connected to your Pre. by XLR and no speaker cable is required. The Mid/High unit is a ribbon. So a regular wire (12 AWG would do). Even thou your system is very expensive, you can save big on the cables. :-) The Bi wire - Bi amp on the Gryphon Pendragon Mid/High unit won't give you any improvement. only cost way more, if you think of another pair of CH M1's ($37,000.- each). |
I assume, that my word wouldn't count till now, from your lovely response. However, maybe this answer from a Swiss respected firm's engineer (CH), would: "As a loudspeaker cable of a few meters probably has an impedance of more than 10 mOhm, it might actually have a dominant effect compared to the amplifier's output load, at full global feedback". Even thou in the case of the Gryphon Pendragon , none would apply. But Mr. Loris Stehlé couldn't know that. I'm amazed that CH official answer didn't involved any of the most preposterous claims, of that cable's directionality, the skin effect, the burn in or some of the even none relevant of your posts. Why is it so difficult for you to accept this?
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@b4icu First of all thanks for going the distance and trying to help. It's really appreciated. As for the cable, as mentioned before, this cable is an old cable, which I had bought several years ago at a very reasonable price. Any money spent on buying a 12 AWG wire is extra money in my case. Most likely my current very thick cable won't harm either. The main reason I reacted is for you to show that you don't just talk, but will take the opportunity to TRY to help people. Some may appreciate, others won't. That's okay, accept it as a matter of fact. Of course I know that in my particular case the power amp is inside the bass towers, and I know that for ribbons other rules apply. That's also the reason I haven't spent any money on buying speaker cables specifically for the ribbons. I'm a ribbon lover, (the sound they produce) have used Apogee Grands before. Again, appreciated for the effort you have put in. Did not expect that. |
@b4icu You wrote "The Bi wire - Bi amp on the Gryphon Pendragon Mid/High unit won't give you any improvement. only cost way more, if you think of another pair of CH M1's ($37,000.- each)." No, that's a little misunderstanding, I have no intention to buy another pair of M1 amps. Currently I'm using one M1 in stereo mode. Later I will add another M1 and will operate the units in mono mode. So no bi-amping. just mono blocks. The bi-wiring cable is just there because it has been there for many years, not specifically for this set up. I have no intention of buying another cable, just use as is. |
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@b4icu This has been interesting and might I add amusing to read.........OK, I'll play, why not, I might learn something useful.........Bryston 4BST amp, bi-wired to Vandersteen 3A signature speakers. Advertised DF is 500+ if I recall correctly.........Currently using 15 foot runs of Belden 10AWG, two per speaker to single terminal on the amp.............What's your suggestion? |
Mr. shadowcat2016 For your setup, a 2x0 AWG is recommanded. A 10 AWG has 10 times the resistance of a 0 AWG. The Bi-wire is a mistaken concept. A single wire that has the added thickness of the two of Bi-wire, would do better. If you would run this simulation on "Spice" you would see that. For the wire you have and the wire you need, it is x20 times worst. Whay do you say: "I’ll play, why not, I might learn something useful". This service (doing the calculation for you) is given for free. At least for now... :-) |
Mr. stevecham
For example, if you would connect a cable, that has a 0.005 Ohms (one red and one black) that have a combined value of the same 0.010 Ohm, your DF would drop due to those cables from 500 to 250. That's like paying for that amp $37,000 but enjoy only 1/2 of that. Most, use long an thin cables that would reflect a resistance that would limit the amps DF by 80% or more. This is paying $37,000 but using only $7,400 of its potential. The rest, $29,600 will wait for a better time when a better cable will come…if it will ever come.
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Mr. han_n
I found it here: https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/ch-precision-m1-mono-amplifier/ The Gryphon Pendragon speakers are $195,000.- : http://www.milliondollarstereos.com/speakerlist.php?category=speakers&pagenum=4 I hope you have the time to enjoy it. Must be a fantastic sound. |
@b4icu I believe that the current retail for a set of M1's is little over US $ 100k, however the Pendragons were sold for about US 175k. Bargaining on this kind of equipment is not easy. Even where I live (Indonesia) where indeed you are expected to bargain, however the moment you go for so called "high-end" there is not much bargaining anymore. You may get a good discount on a Toyota, but will pay the full price for a Lamborghini. As mentioned before, I'm happy with the sound I'm getting. Unfortunately current main issue is my room acoustics, I have moved house some time ago, and haven't tuned my new room yet. Major/alarming difference compared to my previous room. But a bit off-topic to elaborate about that on this thread. |
@b4icu Thank you sir, I'm not sure I buy what you're selling..........for free as you say:), but I may look for some 0 awg and give it a try. It could prove interesting..............It's obvious that I have a WAY smaller budget than many here, and my system reflects that. That said, I'm always looking for ways to improve what I hear.........If the "0" gauge wire doesn't do anything for my system, I can always use it to tow a car or something :) |
Mr.
shadowcat2016 Please no "Sir". Before
you spend some money on a 0 AWG speaker cable, I would recommend you an
experiment, that might cost you little of nothing. |
b4icu..........thank you again. I did have my amp between the speakers until recently, with shorter cables. The spot was inconvenient, but I understand your point, shorter is better.......and less expensive :)............Most here seem to be male, I made that assumption in your case.............My apologies. |
Does it all come down to "use the thickest and shortest cable there is" or am I simplifying it way too much? The idea about jumper cables, as extreme as it may be, seems brilliant for this discussion. If they work, and they should to some extent at least, it would take away a lots of wire statements frequently thrown around on many a thread. |
Mr. glupson1 It is not that simple. As if it would, it would be an old story, everybody knows. In some cases, when the DF is low, as it is often with Tube amplification, a thick and short cable won't help. For amplifiers with other than A or A/B class (like D-class) it is also not applicable. So it is with none coil speakers (as ribbon). For the main stream, that do use A/B class and coil loaded, there is a formula to get an optimum thickness, based on the DF and cable length. However, it is most recommended to have the optimum thickness and length recommended. Getting thicker or shorter or both, above that optimum, would cost more, but not be of any sonic benefit (improvement). It is rather recommended to keep the cable shorter, than get it thicker due to its extra length. |
Seems to be the case. Shorter/thicker generally gets the nod. Not sure how much audible difference there would be. That said, just did a quick search for "0" AWG OFC wire, pretty cheap, especially by A-phile standards. Seems to be popular for car installs. Guess it can't hurt to try.......Not sure if terminations for that stuff would fit standard binding posts or strips, but I'm sure there are methods..............Any non-audiophile would surely think you'd lost your senses seeing battery cable hanging off your speakers. Lots of things in this hobby are/seem crazy, but if they work for you in your system, I guess it's not crazy........I might try it. Looks doable for less than $100. |
Mr. shadowcat2016
All with this hobby are male. If there is a women there, please be kind to step up. During my 45 with this hobby, I never had an acceptation! Well, there was one. She came for the boys that played with this audio toys. Pretty quick, she found a guy with a motorbike! Then she stopped her interest in audio.
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Mr.
shadowcat2016 I'll be happy to continue this conversation with you after you get the 0 AWG cables and you find the way the get them 2x 0 AWG into a standard binding post or banana plug, in a way it will last and not be a danger of loss contact or a short circuit over an amp. channel's output! |
b4icu, Getting thicker or shorter or both, above that optimum, would cost more, but not be of any sonic benefit (improvement). If we forget about cost/benefit ratio, or the total price altogether, would getting thicker and/or shorter cable than necessary (optimum) be detrimental to the sound? I have no idea how thick 0 AWG really is but would be willing to follow shadowcat2016's example for the fun of it. |
Mr. geoffkait
In Israel the Military is compulsory. My older daughter was dismissed as a lieutenant, than promoted in reserves to captain. My younger daughter served at the NAVY as coast guard shift commander. Lady's as men can be Audiophiles. For some reason only men do. No lady's were found in this hobby. If you find one, please let me know. Maybe the same reason why men die before their wives. Because they want to! :-) |
Mr. glupson
Not detrimental, but also no effective either. Keep in mind that it is very difficult to work with thick cables as 0 AWG. It is even more difficult to get a 2x 0 AWG or 4x AWG. For the length, every time the length doubles, so shall the cross section. So if there is no other option, you will need double the thickness… But if there is an option, you better keep the cable length short. Another problem, with 0 AWG and above cables, is the weight they put on the binding posts. That is no problem if the amp and speakers are on the floor. But if they get hanging 2' from ground, that might be a problem. |
As far as I can see, there’s awg 1/0, 2/0, 3/0 and 4/0, or 0000. This last is nearly 1/2 inch thick. This is clearly the stuff you need--and it gives a whole new meaning to speaker jumper cables. Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/KnuKonceptz-Kolossus-Kable-Oxygen-Copper/dp/B0156WE2MI |
b4icu, Thanks for all of this. I completely forgot about the weight which may become an issue. I guess, I could try with a little thinner cable that would be easier fit. It just seems like some easy game that is not that hard to do and costs quite close to a dinner for two around here. I think that it my case it would be sonically completely unimportant, but why not try. If my cables were any shorter, my speakers would be called headphones. I am sure you have noticed the difference in attitude that other posters have towards your original post and ideas after you have started explaining your thoughts and giving practical examples. Now, if everyone tried to do what you suggest, we may get an answer if you are correct in your convictions about cable manufacturers. Luckily, there are other threads that deal with that. |
Mr. twoleftears
A
4/0 AWG or 0000 AWG has a cross section of "only" 2x a 0 AWG as well
as better resistance. When someone have a fireplace between the speakers and requires 20'+ to make the distance between the amp. and the speakers, It takes the extra thickness, to compensate for the length. The cable resistance formula: R = ρ x L/S when ρ is the cooper conductivity (1.68x10-8), L is the length in meters and S is the cross section in square mm. If length gets twice longer, so needs the cross section, to keep the same resistance: R |
OK, had to run an errand, so I stopped in Home Depot to check out 0 AWG wire.............Smallest/largest they had on hand was 2 AWG.............My God, the stuff is huge, heavy and stiff and this was stranded, sort of..............I'm not an electrician, so I wasn't quite sure what to expect. The biggest stuff I've used around the house was 10 AWG.........Cut a couple feet of this stuff and you could beat somebody to death with it!!.......I can't begin to imagine how you would properly connect it to binding posts or terminal strips.................Did I mention that it's huge? and that wasn't even the 0 AWG I went looking for......Amps and speakers, at least the ones I've seen and own aren't set up for anything nearly that big, heavy or stiff...............Hope you have a workable fix for that little problem b4icu!!...................The upside is that it's pretty inexpensive by audiophile standards, especially if you can keep it on the shorter side. At least from a cost perspective it would be a reasonable experiment. |
Quick check of car audio sites has "speaker wire" in the sizes we're talking about. The stranding is very fine and likely to be much more flexible than what I saw at HD today. That had 19 strands, each of which was quite thick and not bendy.............The weight and size will still be about the same I guess............0 AWG is still 0 AWG..............Starts to get a bit pricier though since now we're talking about speaker wires Vs welding cable!!......Anything "special" costs more :( |
I've found a seller in the UK (chameleoncable on ebay) that sells 0 awg OFC copper cable. b4icu was kind enough to advise me that my set up (classe ct5300 -> B&W 802) would need 4 awg. I've spoken with the seller and he'll make me up 4 x 2.5m 0awg cables with spades on each end for around £150. I think that's not a bad experiment for the money. My amp and speaker terminals are all at floor level so the weight won't be a problem. If there's no sonic difference from my Van Dam blue 4mm, it should look cooler using 0 awg cable! And if that doesn't work, I've also ordered some of that 12 awg silver cable mentioned earlier in the thread. Again, $120 for 10m of cable, you can't really go wrong. Once I've had them made up and I've tried them out I'll post my findings. by all accounts I'm looking at a 60% upgrade. |
Mr. shadowcat2016
We have a say in Hebrew: The beginning of an act shall be thinking ahead. No, the HD wire is not for us. It is too rigid. A car audio or some other stuff would be better. Some car audio do not have the gauge they claim. I did a car audio project, needed some 4 AWG kit and ordered one from the US. The actual cable that arrived was more like an 8 AWG!
I'll repeat my say: After you hold a 0 AWG cable of whatever the length you need, how are going to use it? No banana plug nor binding post can support it. Soldering a 0 AWG is not a good idea. By the time it will heat up to melt the tin, the plastic cover will be melted at the ends... A 0 AWG wire, when used in car battery applications, welding machines etc'. are crimped. So with airborne and military applications. To press a 0 AWG cable shoe, a heavy duty tool is required. This entire thing can become a project of its own. Just by getting a 0 AWG wire, you are not yet set. If you have no choice but to have a longer cable and it needs to be 2x 0 AWG, you need more than that crimping tool. Much more. There is a reason why most speaker cables are not coming at that gauge and those that does have a hefty price tag. All I'm asking, once you have the recommanded cable (as calculated) please be kind to share it here. Tell us please what cable it replaced and what were your listening impressions. Thanks. |
I am assuming, based on your posts, that if I got the amp back closer/between the speakers and could reduce the length by half, that I could then use a slightly smaller gauge, perhaps a 3AWG x 2 would then suffice?.......Or did I forget something?...........I agree that attempting to solder cable that heavy without a professional level machine would be a bad idea, so crimping seems to be the way to go.........However, I still don't see how I connect them to my amp's binding posts. I could use some sort of stand-off on the speaker terminal blocks, but the binding posts on the amp are unlikely to accept that large a spade lug..............I'll have to pull my amp and make some measurements to be certain. If I do this, I will of course pass on the results for the benefit of anyone else who may be interested. |
Mr. glupson
Regarding your say: "I am sure you have noticed the difference in attitude that other posters have towards your original post and ideas after you have started explaining your thoughts and giving practical examples", I
can't explain any of that attitude as long as we are dealing with a pure
technical thread. You can rather accept, decline or ask about it. What would
the attitude do with it? Showing off with my resume would help ether. I
also had to keep my ground put, against all the "attitude stuff" to
pass that storm.
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Can't believe that anyone could really buy into this preposterous notion. Thanks morg111! Back to reality, once more: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm On the other hand, I'm sure glad to be using one of those low DF tube amps and can forgo the double run jumper cables.....Jim |
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Dumping
Factor When solid state (SS) was introduced, DF was one of the issues to tackle. Amplifiers, not only audio, but in general, have a tendency to be made with some basic spec's. to keep it ideal. The very first two are: · Infinite input impedance (zero effect on source) and, · Zero output resistance (in a way, an Infinite DF) that would ensure zero effect by the load. Those are the very basics of amplifiers in electronics. That's before flat FR, low noise (SNR), THD etc'. So for all who find DF (or Ro) to be unimportant, why not look how it became a first in ideal amplification? The DF or output resistance can be achieved (by design) in several ways. Feedback (FB) is one of them. Not the best way to get there, but a common one. FB is not a bad thing in general, but may have bad side effects when used too much or in a wrong way. One benefit of FB is to stabilize the output at complex loads. That must be limited by FR to avoid oscillations. The others, are using very high current low R-on output devices (transistors) and a very powerful power supply (PS). Firms like Naim, that have a method of using external PS, are paying a price on DF with that approach. Most high power amps need more than one output device in parallel to provide the power. Some designs emphasize one feature over the other, so as in life, it is difficult to be spot on, on every parameter. When it does, it has a price. Some amplifiers behave bad on low speakers impedance. Most do not double output power when load (8 Ohms) drops to half (4 Ohms) and quadruple when load drops to a quarter (2 Ohms). Some would keep up even at 1 Ohm. If you think it is a good amplifier, what would the Ro (DF) of such amp be, to keep it cool? Amplifiers, with different DF have different sound. Some like the laid back and relaxed tube sound. Some (like McIntosh) would imitate it with SS topology but with an output transformer. For those who like it dynamic and vivid, a higher DF and power are required. The Amplifier – Speaker relation is more complex, as it is depends on the speaker's load (8,4,2 Ohms!) the speaker's efficiency (dB/w/m SPL) and more. The cable between the two are also playing an important role. Some more and some less. The key for that role is the amplifier's DF. For all who may think other, that's ok. Just be fair enough to bring a technical argument to this conversation, rather than just a say aomething with no support. That's an insult to intelligence. All those who add a link to some guru's article on the web, that support their say, but the article has no technical support (no foundation to explain that say), please don't. It's the same insult. A say with no technical support is no good on this thread. You need better. |
