Looking For 18awg Audiophile Power Cable Options

What about all the miles of non-audiophile extremely thin copper wire in the power transformers of all your components? So why should several feet of a power cord matter?

Erm...I thought this was an audiophile forum for people who understand the answer to that question, lol... Did I put this post in the wrong place or something?

@acar83 I’m not aware of 18awg power cords. But if you insist, you can most likely build them yourself using high quality hookup wire and audio grade connectors. Check out Parts Connexion for wires, connectors, etc.

What you’re describing as a problem, at least to me sounds like power supply design issues with the components you are using and the cable gauge isn’t a culprit. Just something to think about. 

I won’t weigh in on your rationale for wanting thinner wire for some of your gear but would suggest you reach out to Karl at Empirical Design. I have been using his higher gauge ED-316 PCs for years on my digital players and linestages and love them—much more flexible for routing and sound great. He will work with you on custom cables that will meet your needs and is a no BS guy who understands his work.

Agree with Dodgealum that you will probably need to reach out to manufacturers to get wire gauge of their products. 

@audphile1 Thanks for your response. Yeah, I’m not the do-it-yourself kind of person unfortunately. I’m not sure what else could be the problem besides the gauge of the wire delivering more energy than the PS is designed to work with (or something). Could it be that most audiophile music systems are just not run for such long stretches for this normally to be an issue? This is all top of the line pro gear I’m working with, not cheap stuff, so if it’s an issue with design, I’m not sure what to do about it. Unfortunately, in the music production world, audiophile products are pretty much seen as "ridiculous" by most, but I’ve done very extensive tests for years and have no doubt in my mind they can make a difference, for better or worse. The Triode Wire Labs Digital American cables absolutely transformed my monitoring system and enhanced the quality of my ADC’s recording performance, and I’ve had no issues with stability or the sound changing when the system is left on for many hours. I think it’s ironic that it’s only the non-digital components that have an issue. The digital components are all from different companies, too. ADC - Mytek, DAC - Lavry, and then the computer is a custom built PC with an RME AES card.

With the other components, the only variable I’ve been able to isolate seems to be the gauge of the power cord. I’ve tried several cables over the years from respected brands, and the 18awg cables, whether the stock cables or slightly upgraded hospital grade cables, are the only ones that don’t give me issues on the analogue components, but then I notice the sibilants are a little harsher and higher frequencies not as smooth, which I’d love to fix. I really don’t know what else to say about it nor do I pretend to understand why, but it’s only after the system has been running for many hours, 8-12, something like that. I’ve done extensive tests where I ran everything on stock with 1 component on an audiophile cable/thicker gauge that’s already been burned-in, let it run for a week to settle (turning off at night), and then listened for a day to assess. It’s been some serious work, lol.

@dodgealum Thanks for the response, I will check it out, thank you.

It seems like the consensus on here is that I’m an idiot for thinking cable gauge is a factor, but I don’t know what else it could be, as that’s the only variable I’ve been able to isolate. And then I think, ok, well current delivery from 18awg is what the gear is designed to work with, but I don’t understand the technology enough to really know what difference massive current delivery would make, I’m just speculating. I do however undoubtedly have the ears to know what I’m hearing. The change is subtle but distinct, and not something I can have happening in a production system for recording and making critical mixing decisions.

Any other ideas are welcome and appreciated. I’ll do custom cables if necessary but if you guys really don’t think it’s the cable gauge, I don’t want to spend a bunch of money on it. Most of this gear is using around an amp of power, so even an 18awg cable is delivering more than it needs. I think the real benefit is more related to keeping the power clear of RFI between the power conditioner (Transparent Power Isolator) and the gear, also it seems high quality connectors make a difference, hence the notable difference with the hospital grade cables. I’ve never really understood the proposed value of flooding the gear with a ton of extra current it’s not needing to operate. Anyway, I’m open to other ideas, if we can refrain from the "you’re clearly an idiot" insinuations. ;) Thank you.

I think that there are two things throwing people off. One is that your components sound different after long periods of use and secondly that thinner power cables provide superior sound. Many of us leave our components on 24/7 due to changes in reproduction after our systems are turned on, but the end result isn’t a reduction in fidelity. If this is a power supply issue where noise is getting back into the system and in a different manner after many hours of use, then speaking with a technical person at Shunyata might be useful. I believe that Shunyata started out trying to provide less noise to sensitive equipment in hospital environments. Richard Rodgers at Shunyata would be the guy to talk to. Their focus has been reducing bleed back noise into an electrical system via their NR power cords. If you have trouble getting through to Richard, message me and I’ll provide his mobile number. I try doing this sparingly.

BTW…. There are a subset of members here that believe that spending large sums of money on power cables is a waste of money and that cable make little, or no difference in component performance.  I don’t believe that most post to criticize the rest of us, but rather are trying, in their view, to save us from wasting our money.

@acar83 I would also recommend reaching out to the manufacturer of your powered speakers and or whatever other components you have noticed this phenomena with. Get their feedback on it. 
 

I’ll add to what I posted above…

Components first, cables last. Consider getting better components rather than spending money on 18awg custom power cords.

Try some of the inexpensive hospital grade cords on Amazon.

Many are of the "iron lung jelly fish" variety (Google "iljf" + "power cord" if not already familiar with them.

I would try them in the 14-18 gauge range and not just limit it to 18 (they are cheap).

One example (18gauge).

DeKay

@dekay 

Those are the cables that I use in 14awg. I have three of them and yes, they are cheap and give piece of mind.

Have you guys wondered why @jasonbourne52 is the first poster on every single cable thread? 💭 🤯. Also, why does he always say the same thing on those first posts / replies 🤯🤔?

I would assume so. I still cannot wrap my head around WHY he does that though. Some type of mental disorder is my guess 🤔

@vonhelmholtz Interesting, okay, so my theory about the system being left on longer than a music listening system doesn’t hold up, haha. I wouldn’t say it’s a reduction in fidelity, it’s that the sounds starts sounding slightly...denser, less open, kind of compressed, more fatiguing from the density, which changes the way I want to mix and process audio.

I don’t think it’s a matter of noise getting back into the system, the components are all on their own duplexes. I actually spoke with Richard at Shunyata years ago. I have their PS8 power conditioning bar (I think it’s called a PS8?) but I don’t use it for the music production system. It was affecting the sound. Works great for my TV and soundbar for watching movies, but not for music production. The Transparent Power Isolator I have is amazing, and I’ve used lots of power conditioners over the years. I’ll never use anything else. Very expensive, but luckily I was able to get one that was refurbished by the company.

I’m down the middle regarding power cables. I know some people think it’s BS but I couldn’t care less, I’ve studied it extensively and the difference in certain applications is not subtle. But as I’ve described here in this thread, it’s not always a good difference. If it’s not the gauge of the cable causing the problem, I have no idea what else it would be, there are no other pertinent variables really.

@audphile1 I did that with most of the companies involved, they said they do not recommend using aftermarket cables. The company that does the speakers, KRK, said I could take them to be inspected, but there are no authorized repair places for KRK anywhere near me. And there are no issues with performance when I use an 18awg cable. I don’t think I need better components. The vocal chain is top of the line professional recording gear, and all works fine on 18awg cables. I just thought maybe I could find options that gave me the smoother top end I was hearing with the other cables. I have a tendency when something is good I always ask, how can I make it even better...

@dekay Those are the exact cables I’ve been using that have been working. The 18awg variety, I did try 16 and 14, but they make the audio sound over-amplified for some reason. And again, somehow I don’t think there is something wrong with all of the power supplies of Manley, Great River, KRK, these are all top tier companies. Anyway, those cables are the cables I mentioned that are notable improvements over the stock cables, I just thought maybe there was something out there with better EMI/RFI rejection. The Transparent Power Isolator does a wonderful job of filtration, I’m just trying to keep the currents as clean as possible from the isolator to the components, for those extra smooth sibilants. If there aren’t other options and custom cables are too expensive, the system is solid as is, maybe just not as "audiophile" as it could be.

@thyname Yeah, I don’t know, seems like a waste of time to troll posts like that. I wasn’t asking, "Hey guys, do you think cables make a difference???" lol.

Anyway, I don’t really understand the purpose of delivering 10x or more current a component needs with a massive gauge cable (even though my Digital American cables sound fantastic and I’m pretty sure are massive gauge, they just work and make such a huge difference in my work flow, I don’t really care if they’re overkill), but the concept of filtering noise out of the power and keeping it clean from ambient RF/EM all the way to the component is not snake-oily to me.

Anyway, thank you all for your feedback.

@acar83 : I appreciate you following up on your own thread. Clearly NOT one of those “drive by posters”.

I have to be honest, and tell you the truth how I see this: I am scratching my head on this. I never experienced myself a lower gauge (read: thicker) can impact the music playback negatively. While not necessary better than a lower gauge cable, cannot hurt at worst. Even for light weight applications like digital. Assuming same quality cable geometry and built. And even brand and tier. Something for me to investigate further. Thanks

@thyname haha, no drive by poster here, no Sir.

Yeah I don't really know, I just did a lot of testing before I came to these conclusions. I don't really understand the science behind some of this. It's ironic because my digital components are the ones doing great on the big audiophile cables. And when I test this stuff, I don't just swap cables and listen and jump to a conclusion; I let the cable break in or re-break in extensively and/or settle and then assess.

Like I said I don't really understand the ideology behind big cable gauge to begin with. I was just looking at a chart because I couldn't remember the numbers, and an 18awg cable accommodates 14 amps! I have a computer, 2 powered 6" inch monitors, a DAC, an ADC, a stereo preamp, a tube compressor, and tube microphone power supply all on one 15 amp circuit and it's not even at 50% last I checked. So 18awg should be plentyyyy for each of these components...

acar83 OP

3 posts

02-12-2023 at 09:18am 

Erm...I thought this was an audiophile forum for people who understand the answer to that question, lol... Did I put this post in the wrong place or something?

Nope. Jason Bourne is the proverbial “our Village Fool”

@acar83 : maybe it will help the people here if you post your full audio chain? Meaning all your components from source to speakers. Or headphones if that’s your thing.

To me, since you have already been using Pete’s TWL cables, it sounds like you have some experience with power cords.

I’m not trying to be a smart ass, but the way that I’ve always viewed this larger power cord or smaller power cord for that matter is that it doesn’t matter how let’s say large it is as soon as it enters the component it goes through a fuse. So if you’ve got a 18 gauge cord or a steel rod that’s an inch in diameter. The power still hast to go through the fuse. then, after the fuse, there’s other electrical things that happened like changing the power to DC that happen. My point being is that don’t these things like the fuse, and then converting to DC act as the smallest common denominator?

@raysmtb1 : how long is the fuse? Do the math. Inches or millimeters. Resistance, capacitance, inductance. Basic stuff. I am not trying to be a smart ass here. Just common misconception all you cable deniers / haters have

The fuse is no longer than an inch long and I think probably around 26 gauge and isn’t it in a vacuum like a lightbulb?

No idea what you are saying. Maybe take on knitting? Instead of this hobby.

P.s. I noticed you have Tekton and McIntosh. That explains it. Carry on

“Nope. Jason Bourne is the proverbial “our Village Fool””

or wise man, depending on your point of view. He has a good bit of experience spanning a diversity of gear. I disagree with his stance regarding power cables and testimonials have never swayed his opinion. I suspect that he would suggest that the claim that cables make a difference won’t stand under double blind tests.

@thyname making fun of other peoples equipment is the part of the hobby that I could do without. Yes I’m a Macintosh  add a tekton guy. I think they both make fine equipment and they’re both made here in the United States. I think I could probably find plenty of people who wouldn’t have a problem with any of my purchases.

I’m not a full on cable denier. I think it’s a little over blown, I think that interconnects and speaker cables can make a difference. I’ll stand behind the power cord argument. Especially since none of the aftermarket ones, are underwriters, laboratories, rated.I hope that you never have a problem with one of these aftermarket cords, messing up any of that fine foreign made equipment that you have.

I probably should’ve taken up knitting. It would’ve been a lot cheaper than the money I spent hiring people… specialists, helping me build my new idea in Speakers called  blueprintacoustic.com. That’s kind of what’s wrong with being an audio file. It’s not really a hobby……riding a bike is a hobby unless you’re going to buy and sell equipment home audio is not really a hobby. Home audio is like buying an expensive home Appliance that you have fallen in love with. I think many people get bored and wish that they could have more interaction with their equipment than just turning it on and listening to music. That explains away why there are so many bizarre tweaks that are available to purchase. There is some seriously bizarre stuff that I’ve seen come up for sale. I don’t think I’ve ever seen things like that and other hobbies. Unless you are a electronics tech, there’s really not much else you can do with your equipment except listen to it.. I don’t know just a crazy thought. 

After I had my accident (riding my bike) and became a quadriplegic. I was looking for something to do. I can’t use my hands like I used to so streaming music seem to be something fun. Then I started buying and selling equipment. Three years ago I decided that I thought I had a pretty novel idea and started doing my research and hiring specialist to see if my speaker idea would work. I’m very proud at what I’ve created, along with some other very talented people. In a way it tries to solve some of the hobby issues. I spoke of previously. We designed a hands on speaker system that encourages you to make changes and gives you hundreds of options that no other speaker company does. We’re very proud of how they sound and how they look. 

when I retired at 40 I thought I would get to ride my bike until I was around 80. That didn’t work out like I planned….so If any of you out there are bored… I’d love to get to know you better, and let’s talk about speakers!

I apologize to all those out there who love their power cables. I wish I could hear what you do, it would give me something else to goof around with. Best wishes to everyone may you find contentment in our audio hobby.

acar83 OP

4 posts

02-12-2023 at 08:18am 

Erm...I thought this was an audiophile forum for people who understand the answer to that question, lol... Did I put this post in the wrong place or something?

Big talk for an "audiophile" wanting 18 ga, power cables.

I think I’m done with my participation in this thread. It was a simple question about whether or not anyone knew of cables that would have the specs of the stock cables that professional audio gear is designed to run with but with higher quality connectors and some kind of RF shielding, but clearly that is too much for people to handle.

But to "secretguy" I will say, being an "audiophile" has nothing to do with needing a gauge or power cord of any specific kind, it’s about getting a certain energetic experience from the system as a whole, whatever it takes to get you there. For me, it was a shift in the way the system felt so that the system kind of disappeared and the music became more real, allowing me to make more objective decisions in the production of music.

Thanks to the few of you who had constructive things to say. Peace.

Yes. Knitting is a good hobby.

And @raysmtb1 everything I see here you posting leads me to believe you are a full blown cable hater and denier. Everything you say is a conjecture.

By the way, you never answered my question on the fuse

oh, and this? 😂😂😂

when I retired at 40

Why would youwant awg 18;, for dacs, preamps awg 14 is the most common 

and much better ,for bigger awg lower resistance ,

for little money the Pangea  awg 14 sig mk2 uses Cardas best  6-9s Copper 

for under $250:a very respectable cable.

@thyname i’m not sure what you mean by that everything I say is conjecture…. If you mean, my ideas are based on bad information or incomplete information, this would not be true. i’ll follow the manufacturers recommendations. It doesn’t matter what I think about the fuse, it was put there by an engineer, who knows more than I do about what size fuse belongs there. As far as the power cards, go, I trust underwriters laboratories…. Not some guy who decided to make power cables are on his kitchen table. I can’t believe that people will spend 50 K on a system and then put power cards on their systems that are not. Underwriters laboratories approved. If God forbid something happened and the house burned down,  it would suck if the claim got denied because they found all these aftermarket power cords that weren’t approved. Those are the kind of things that they look for when there’s an accident…. Things that have been altered.

😂😂😂. Ok buddy. Have a happy and healthy life

18 g is pretty thin……

Check out OCC cable at RAMM Audio. Fantastic cable.

@z32kerber yeah, I really like those RAMM cables! Thanks for the tip

@acar83 I own a Benchmark LA4 and DAC3B. They came with 18AWG power chords that they claim are the best they have been able to find. I tried the 14AWG chords that I use on other components and went back to their outstanding recommendation and could not be happier!

Acar83,

Not debating the reasoning behind your thought, but Morrow Audio has cables that may be near what you are looking for: Their MAP-1 uses Litz construction, and the total is 17 gauge. Their MAP-2 does as well, and the total is 15 gauge.

I have not tried their power cables, but own their RCA interconnects, XLR interconnects, digital co-ax, and speaker cables. Great value for the money, and they have a 30 day return policy.

NOTE: Morrow cables need some break in time, I would use at least their 10 day break in service.....so they come to you ready to demo.

Not that I know all the size cables that they can make from, a thought for a custom cable that will not break the bank you might want to check Iconoclast Cable BAV Power Cables. I have had very good results on my purchases.

Bob Howard has made me a number of cables in 2 different ga. Can send contact info if interested.

SteveA

@acar83 

Very interesting post.

I'm a (very) long term advocate for premium power cables, and I'm trying to wrap my head around the issue of larger gauge cables having performance issues over extended time periods.  I have not observed, nor have I made an attempt to properly observe it.  I guess this proves I still have gaps in my knowledge base, and have something(s) to learn.

My thoughts and observations:

It would be interesting to know if the sonics you describe with Audioquest has been specifically with power cables or other (interconnect, speaker, digital) cables?  It's possible that if this is the "other" catagory, then you might find the power cables to have different sonic characteristics and be more agreeable with you?

Per Audioquest's specs for current power products, models that use 2-prong C7 connectors are 17AWG.  If your equipment uses 3-prong C13 connectors, the smallest Audioquest cable (NRG-X3) is 16AWG, and moves quickly to 14AWG with the next 2 models up.  

While the sonic benefits of the step up models are very apparent (to me anyway), I don't know if the larger gauge with material upgrades. and other noise, impedance improvements will provide a stable extended use benefit in your situation.

Maybe worth a listen?

acar83:

I'm not recommending this, but your query reminded me of a discussion here @ A'Gon (20+ years ago) regarding making power cords out of 47 Labs OTA cable (26 gauge solid core copper in a thick polyvinyl insulation).

If you search OTA + power cord some of the posts will come up (most are contained in this thread - one which I took part in).

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/sakura-systems-ota-cable-kit

DeKay

Hello acar83.  There are snap on ferrite blocks that prevent very high frequency signals from getting through cables. They fit over your power cords and are very inexpensive. I suspect, as some have suggested, that garbage generated in the power supplies of some of your gear age getting into the innerds of other equipment and causing the problems you mention. I have had this sort of problem in some of my gear and have had to remove some well reviewed gear to solve the problem. Putting ferrite blocks on all the power cords can't hurt is might be a very inepensive solution. I live near a Navy base and have about two volts of garbage on my power and phone lines. Good Luck!

Hey OP, what you describe does not make much sense. Sounds like you may need some mains clean up and there are many products that will help. You are under the mistaken impression that heavier/ thicker cables will swamp the system with massive amounts of current.  It does not work that way.   Also do not assume that if wire is able to deliver, say 10 amps (a steady state rating) that it will be adequate for transient dynamics which is what music is, as you know.

A component will only draw the current it needs dependent on the demands of the system, in other words if you connected to the mains with heavy duty truck battery jumpers the system would use the same amount of current.

Start eliminating and narrowing your search by simply connecting a multi-meter to your amplifier terminals with the meter set to DC. Should read no more than a few millivolts and ideally zero. 

A word of caution!  Any cable thread should carry a health warning. Cables make a difference and to me power cables carry the biggest rewards.

The hot rail is not fused, the neutral rail is.

Your amp is regulated and pre.Thin wire can if smaller than the smallest wire in your equipment can impede current. Electricity has interesting qualities in that noise accumulated on the wire can be stripped of with different techniques in the construction of the cord.

Hot rail is not fuse so whats really going on here?