No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need

Actually, silver is 7% more conductive than copper but who’s counting?

I bet you’re not too thrilled with directionality or cryogenics or burn in. 😛

Two things about the Waldo Nell 43 page anti audiophile “scientific” extravaganza. First, the third word in his diatribe is pseudoscience. I think I already see where this is headed. Two, the correct grammar is, “a lot of pseudoscience is being tossed around.” Waldo Emerson he’s not. Audiophile shops? What in heaven’s name are those? Anyway, for those reasons I’m out.

“A lot of pseudoscience are being tossed around audiophile shops, manufacturers and the internet regarding speaker wiring and how it affects sound quality. Manufacturers and resellers want you to believe that spending thousands of dollars on speaker wires are justified as it can make a substantial difference in audio quality when compared to cheaper wires.”

b4icu
Mr. geoffkait
You bett right.
On cryogenics or burn inI answered already.
Directionality: Audio is an AC. That means that every 1/2 wave is flowing in the opposite direction of the other 1/2.
Please be kind to explain, who is changing the cables directionality so many times a second...?

>>>Easy question. The reason wire direction matters in an AC circuit is because the signal that is traveling in the “opposite direction” doesn’t matter in terms of what you hear from your speakers. You only hear the signal that is traveling toward the speakers. So you can forget about the 1/2 wave traveling in the opposite direction. That’s why you want the best direction of the wire in the cable or fuse or power cord aiming toward the speakers. That’s precisely why the new Audioquest power cords are “controlled for directionality.” I.e., each tiny strand in the power cord is controlled for directionality.  It’s because direction of wire matters in an AC circuit. Get with the program.

I mentioned Audioquest since power cords are obviously in an AC circuit. No, I’m not an Audioquest sales guy. Would that make a difference? Do you think Audioquest is lying? I’m talking about all wires, obviously. To be honest, I’m not sure you are understanding what is meant by cable or wire “directionality.” It doesn’t mean wire acts like a diode. What I’m saying, don’t put words in my mouth, is that AC current travels in both directions, but you only need to worry about the current traveling toward the speaker. That’s why reversing speaker cables, interconnects, fuses is audible. And why power cords should be controlled for directionality like any other cable. Even though directional differences in resistance are very small, they are not entirely symmetrical, differences in sound are quite audible and often quite pronounced. Even for a teeny tiny little fuse. This is not my first rodeo. 🤠

So sayeth The Iron Sheik.  Pro wrestling at its worst? You mean there’s a best?

People are free to believe what they wish to believe. But I wouldn’t expect audiophiles as a group, who demonstrate a good amount of skepticism, to necessarily automatically buy into any hog swallop that might be tossed their way, but I also suspect skeptics like yourself are outweighed by the great numbers of audiophiles who do hear directionality and have for twenty years. Time to wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️

My relationship to engineering is that I am one. And my understandings are by no means unique. Actually, my understandings are rather with the majority of high end audiophiles. Better luck next time. 

“If I could explain it to the average person they wouldn’t have given me the Nobel prize.” 

I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears you don’t even know what wire directionality is. How can I in good conscience argue with you any longer?

Anytime someone says silver is 9% more conductive than copper should be a tell. It’s a tell that he has a broken calculator.

You do know there’s such a thing as being overly skeptical, don’t you? It’s gullible’s ugly sister. 🤪

Hey, how come we never get complaints from folks who buy expensive high end cables? Only from those who can’t afford them. 🤔

Is there an interpreter in the building? 😳

A real skeptic has curiosity and investigates and tries to get to the bottom of things. A real skeptic can sometimes change his mind, you know, based on experience or evidence. An overly skeptical person, on the other hand, ✋refuses to change his mind for any reason, even in the face of contradicting evidence. I.e., his mind 🧠 is closed on the subject. Capish? That’s where the P word comes from, you know, the word that’s been uh, outlawed. 

Next up, the $10,000 Challenge. 

b4icu
Geoffkait - You can not chalange me on technical arguments, so you push it to none relevant subjects.

>>Two things. I can spell challenge and non. And I pointed out your technical error regarding the relative conducting capabilities of silver and copper. You were off by 30%. Looks relevant to me.

“Little errors lead to big errors.”

So, let me get this straight. In Israel women can be in the military but they can’t be audiophiles? 

Be careful, kosst, he might show you his credentials. 🤭

b4icu
What "buying spots and clocks" has to do with this? You found out that all the rest, like directional cables, burn in, cryogenic treat and skin effect were un useful so you dig the buying spots and clocks In a forgotten drawer, never yet used with speaker cables, maybe it will work now?

>>>>So, just because you declare these things irrelevant, hotshot, doesn’t make it so. Nor does ignoring metal purity enhance your self proclaimed expertise. Maybe if you close your eyes and hold your breath and stomp your foot they’ll just go away.

We see this sort of thing from time to time, where someone is working in a vacuum without access to or ignoring all the advancements that have been made in cable performance, fuse performance, and power cord performance. It’s called Stove Piping. 🏭 I did not create reality.

b4icu OP
Mr. geoffkait

Well done. You reached 11,881 posts. Yes, this is the way to have 12,000 posts soon. This may explain your reluctant nagging since I opened this thread.
Clock in a digital audio device is jitter related. What jitter has to do with a speaker cable?
Do you even understand what jitter is?
Why it is of any concern, how much jitter is audible, and when does jitter becomes valid?
You are accusing me of: " So, just because you declare these things irrelevant, hotshot, doesn’t make it so".
At a time you just bring up things without supporting them by any technical background or sense, I doubt you if you understand them at all!

Good luck chuck with the 12,000 posts. Must be the achievement of your life time.

Do you collect any other points? Wal-Mart, Safeway, Gas station? Must be a lot of fun.

>>>>Wow! Let me point out it was you who misspoke technically when you stated the conductivity of silver is 9% greater than copper. Why you would assume you’re the only one who understands technical things here is simply bizarre. Can I suggest you might not be quite ready for prime time?

Audioquest checks in on the dodgy subject of bi wiring,

http://www1.audioquest.com/resource_tools/downloads/literature/learning_modules/Understanding-BiWiri...

B4icu, by the way, as instated previously, you don’t seem to know what bi wiring actually is. 

Methinks he doesn’t know what bi wire is. A myth is as good as a mile. 

On the other hand, who really cares what SPICE says about bi wiring. None other than John Atkinson of Stereophile reports otherwise. So, this appears to be one of those talkers vs doers type arguments. 😬 Or, perhaps a measurements vs listener argument. 😛

“Some audiophiles feel that bi-wiring produces an audible improvement over standard single cabling. For example, John Atkinson, writing in Stereophile, states that he observes "subtle but important" differences, particularly in reduction of treble hardness and improvement in bass control in one review.”

And this from Definitive Technology,

“Does doubling the connections double the sound quality?

Bi-wiring is intended to minimize impedance differences between high and low frequencies and its impact on the overall sound you experience. The result is an improvement in the midrange that many enthusiasts believe is significant enough to justify running the additional cable. You may not double the quality of your playback, but you will likely notice a major boost in clarity.”

There’s also this from Polk Audio, who knows something about speakers,

”What is it?

Bi-wiring is the using separate speaker wire connections to split the signal between high and low frequencies.

What does it accomplish?

The theory behind bi-wiring is that it can elevate a great sounding speaker and produce subtle, enjoyable, improvements in overall sound quality. In a sense, bi-wiring is to speaker connections as “star grounding” is to electronics connections.

When a piece of audio equipment uses a single circuit grounding point for all electronic sections as opposed to connecting them in a “daisy-chain” fashion, this is referred to as “star grounding.” The integrity of each ground path is maintained by individual connections to a low impedance point.

The same concept is applied when bi-wiring your audio system. Each “section” of your speaker is independently connected to the low impedance point (output transistors) in your receiver or amplifier. The effects of bi-wiring have been described as “lifting a veil from the mid-range” and that “voices seem clearer, more distinct, and less muffled.””

I guess you’re probably right, b4icu. It’s a giant conspiracy. Very carefully choreographed by big money - and it’s worldwide. Especially in the US. You see everything, don’t you? 😬

Yes, exactly! Audioquest is a cable maker. And you are not. Polk is a speaker maker and you are not. Definitive Technology is a speaker maker and you are not. See the pattern? Furthermore, there is no financial advantage for a speaker company or an audiophile magazine editor to promote bi wiring. Hey-loo!

See my post today at 12:01 pm. That should help. There seems to be some confusion as to what bi wiring actually is. Not everyone is in a position to be able to try it, consequently, even if he wanted to.

If it looks like a 🦆 and it talks like a 🦆 and it walks like a 🦆 it’s probably a 🦆

Compared to what?

Rather quickly this review of the Van Damm Blue speaker cables popped up in my search. Interesting, no? Apparently anything would sound more transparent than Van Damme Blue cables. Perhaps even coat hangers. 

(Everything is relative. - Albert Einstein)

“Sound (Blue series cable)
Taking into account this cable was deemed to be unused and fresh off the reel, it required some running in to let it settle down. It VAnDamétook what seemed to be an exceptional length of time to become listen-able so I would advise new owners to be a little bit patient when first installed and not to make hasty judgments at first hearing.

Given that the Blue is not considered to be a “hi-fi” cable in a domestic setting and aimed more at being a rugged studio workhorse, it was evident from the sound that refinement is not at the top of this cable’s priorities. I wish I could point out to you where exactly its strengths and weaknesses lie, because one CD track where I was listening to it would sound fine, another less so and variations in between, so I will try and pick out the reliable consistencies that I experienced.

Midrange was certainly congested sounding, with female vocals having a lack of air and grace that I know is there in the recording. Treble had a slightly steely edge that was prevalent with cymbals in particular, while bass didn’t have the rich fullness that a cable of this diameter should be delivering with ease in my opinion. It is a listen-able cable nonetheless and I wouldn’t condemn it out of hand as I know there are many folks out there that own and enjoy the sound it makes for them.”

b4icu OP
Mr. geoffkait

What a story over nothing.

Your first par. refers to the burn-in (BI) process without calling it by that specific name.

Burn in to a cooper cables!

I’ll ask you again (asked you already on the BI thread, you avoid from answering with your perfect manners):

What is a burn in?

How long does it takes?

When is it required and why?

Your second par. You do a statement, as you are the absolute authority to define what cable is hi-fi, hi-end or extra-hi-end, and what cable is not (trash cable). You are actually bringing here the lord’s word on cables grading. You are the messenger. If you would understand the original old testimony it its original language (Hebrew) you would know that the miss translated word "Angle" to English is "Messenger" in Hebrew. From your extensive postings on my thread and other’s threads, you are none of the two for sure.

Just kindly remind you, that cooper as an element has fixed (k) conductivity (ρ). It is 1.68x10-8. Or 1.59x10-8 for Silver and it is only 5.3% better than cooper (I know this will make your day…).

A wire (cable) has a resistance (R cable) that is: R = ρ x L/S

L is the lengths in meters and S is the cross section in mm^2

I assume that your judgmental approach is based on the cables isolator look, the color and a scale of reputation given by the firm that you are doing all this for.

Your Third par. You go into some lyrics about the sound. The sound of music…That is fascinating observation, that all the sudden you can tell what someone’s system sound’s, in someone’s room you never heard with any cable, of what it sounds like now with a blue colored thick cable, in incredible detail.

I’m impressed Mr. geoffkait from your lyrics, but I don’t like the tune, the rendition. You’ve got my attention and I got suspicious. For the amount of time and effort you put into your crusade, you must have a motive and maybe a sponsor.

>>>>>A few comments. One, the numbers you give for copper and silver are actually their respective resistance, not conductivity. Thus, the resistance for copper is higher than for silver. From what I gather from the review of the Van Damm Blue cables they are very average in terms of sound quality. Almost ANY cable compared to them would seem fantastic. Lastly, I included the cable burn in comments by the reviewer to suggest that unless the Van Damm cables were properly burned in they would sound even worse than if they were.

Yes, I know the difference between crap sounding cables and high end cables. I doubt that you do, however.

conradnash
I went with Van Dam cable as that’s offered by Mark Grant Cables, a well known and well respected cable maker (in the UK at least).

its also the cables they use in Abbey Road studios, who also happen to use classe amps and B&W speakers.

>>>>One can only hope Abbey Road studios doesn’t employ Van Damme Blue cables in the recording chain. 😀 One can’t help wondering if Abbey Road is cognizant of cable burn in. Probably not. Nevermind.

For your info, b4icu, I’m not one of those runny nose, naive, gullible teenagers you’re trying so hard to protect. As far as the relative costs of silver and copper cables your facts seem to be as screwy as always. Maybe your calculator is broken, who knows? As far as MIL Standards go, they are irrelevant to the discussion and can be ignored. But you get an A for name dropping.

b4icu - I’m not accusing you of lying. I’m accusing you of being misinformed. It’s not your fault. You don’t know what you don’t know. It’s no big deal.

I am King of Lies and King of Truth. I did not bring up burn-in. You did. I brought up directionality and cryogenics. You may carry on with your Inquisition.

b4icu
No speaker’s cable maker, have a tiniest clue of what cable we need. They also do not know why one cable sounds better over the other. They have no idea what are the electrical (engineering) values that make one cable better over another. An absolute groping in the darkness. For that reason, they "invented" a lot of preposterous pleas to cover the misunderstanding and ignorance: directional cables, cryogenic treatment, cooper purity, skin effect, burn in and more. None would hold a scientific confirmation or any evidence. No other field using wires got such an attention. From NASA and space programs, to the highest level of airborne and military equipment, life saving medical equipment or cell phones. Only audio cables did.

>>>>>>>What a drama queen! In the first place you act as though all cable manufacturers are colluding or choreographing some sort of conspiracy designed to trick young naive audiophiles. But that is far from the truth since cable manufactures - in reality, not your paranoid fantasy - tend to develop and evolve their own theories and manufacturing processes over a long period of time based on their own experience. They rarely agree with each other. Many cable makers employ cryogenics, but some don’t. Most cable makers probably don’t control directionality. And there are many differences in purity and type of metal conductor among and within cable makers. You appear to be, judging by your own words, the poster child for anti audiophile naysayers.

Further, there is no requirement for “scientific confirmation,” as you call it. The most obvious mistake in your reasoning is that audio is the only field that is interested in how cables sound. capish? So you can throw out all the other things, military, NASA, hospitals, whatever. Follow? If you told the military or NASA they must use uber thick cables as you suggest they would laugh you out of the office.

Bring it on! The companies I worked for taught them everything they know. But not everything we know.

Well, yes, maybe it is. As well as claptrap. 

I’ve been buying high end cables for forty years and never spent as much as what it costs for the extra thick car battery type cables. The whole premise that audiophiles are being duped into paying great amounts for cables is ridiculous and simply not true. Of course, their are some audiophiles who buy very expensive cables. This is especially true since the Great Depression. Just like some people buy Ferraris and Lamborghinis. But they’re outliers. They don’t represent a trend or average or anything. Most people have learned to be financially conservative. We buy used. Hel-loo! I don’t see too many audiophiles buying $100,000 turntables, either, these days especially. You’re the only one who’s not happy. Everybody else is happy. Where’s the beef? 🐂

Cable manufacturers have provided more bang for the buck by evolving the whole cable technology, you know, by incorporating very pure metals, advanced geometries, long crystal copper, advanced welding techniques, cryogenics, controlling wire directionality and establishing data for cable burn in. What’s not to like? Revel in your time! 😀

When you say that you could have saved thousands of dollars one assumes you must have thrown your old cables in the trash. Most people break even when they sell their used cables, if not make money on the deal. Remember, don’t throw them in the trash next time.

This debate regarding brass and pure metals for connectors is probably best written off as just another high end vs mid fi misunderstanding.

The cables that were replaced by the dudes you mentioned were not (rpt not) high end cables, or they did not (rpt not) have pure metal connectors. Just because you say they were doesn’t make it true. For example we already know the cables the guy in UK was using were not (rpt not) high end cables. Those Blue things.

It’s the editorial “we.” We’ve already discussed the UK and his Blue cables, the ones that did not fair too well in at least one review. It was about two months ago on this thread. Of course, many posts have mysteriously disappeared since then. But I have a photographic memory, thank goodness. 

Not sure I go along with the presumption that Kimber 12TC are “high end cables.” I guess we need to define what high end cables means.  Kimber does have good name recognition going for him, however. I’ll give him that. By the way sales of fake Kimber 12TC cables appears to be rather brisk on eBay. Maybe I’m missing something.

On another subject I’m not sure why people assume that a given set of components have a certain predictable level of sound quality or that photos of a system reveal anything about how it sounds. There are way too many variables to be able to make such judgements.

Changes in sound between two cables, no matter how expensive or how cheap, can be explained solely by directionality. Mystery solved! 

b4icu

Audio signal is an AC (Alternated Current). An audio signal as complex it may be can be simplified by a set of sine waves (of different frequency and amplitude). This is what the Nyquist sampling is about and all digital sound (CD, PCM and on) is based on.

A sine wave is a symmetrical wave (above and below the zero voltage line). So is the energy (Integral) of its positive and negative value (Sum equals to zero).

As so, every half wave, the current flow one way and the other half in the opposite way. If a cable would be directional or have a directional property, it would be a disaster to one half.

>>>>>Let’s not make this so difficult. The sound is worse when the current goes in one direction, but that direction is back toward the wall outlet.🔜 So it can be ignored. The ONLY DIRECTION that matters sonically is the direction toward the speakers. It’s not rocket science. 🚀 That’s why all wires in cables should be controlled for directionality, you know, if you’re at all concerned about the sound. When the cable is in the wrong direction it IS a relative disaster for the sound. Oh, it will work, but it just sounds worse. It’s an audiophile thing. It’s the reason fuses sound better in one direction vs the other, also why Audioquest controls directionality for all their high end cables AND power cords. 

conradnash30 posts12-10-2018 3:35pm@geoffkait

Regarding directionality, while I’m skeptical, I hope I’ve shown that I’m always willing to experiment and to find out for myself. If I’ve understood you correctly, all wire is directional and the difference between the "right" way and the "wrong" way (or maybe "most appropriate" and "least appropriate" ways) should be audible.

My questions to you are:
- do I need to get all cables the "right" way around to hear the benefit, so will it only work if I have the power cable, the interconnect, and the speaker cable all the "right" way around? Or will just the speaker cable be enough?

>>>>All cables, fuses in the system do not have to be in the correct direction to hear effects of one test but the more cables and fuses that are correct the easier it will be to hear the effect of reversing one cable or fuse. Some wire obviously cannot be reversed, e.g., transformer wire, capacitor, internal wiring of electronics or speaker. Not sure how you can have a power cord reversed since plugs prevent experimenting. Audioquest controls direction during manufacturer but I think they’re the only one.

- would you expect a difference on only the positive leg of the speaker cable? Given that the negative leg is returning to the amplifier, this should be less audible, right? In the same way that the return path of an AC signal is heading back towards the amp and is therefore less audible/important.

>>>>>I am pretty sure the plus and minus on each speaker operate push/pull AC, so both legs are directional. That’s why if you reverse the legs the speakers still play music but the music is in reverse Polarity.

- should the change be immediately obvious or do I need a burn in for the directional crystals to settle or something?

>>>>>The change should be immediate. If unsure if better or worse, repeat. The more cables and fuses that are correct the easier it will be to hear the next one you reverse, and so on.

I’m asking as this is a very easy experiment for me to try. Given my new 0AWG cables I can flip the positive, negative, or both cables with reasonable ease. If I only need to get the positive "right" then I only have one cable to flip. If I have to get both "right" then one of the four combinations should sound better than the others. I guess one combination would sound worst (both "wrong"), two would sound similar (one "right" and one "wrong") and one should sound best (both "right").

>>>>>>If cables are brand new I’d give them a while to break in before making any judgements regarding direction. Or save them for last. The issue I foresee when you have two cables involved like ICs is one could be the opposite direction of the other, especially if you cut them yourself. The odds for any cable being “right” by accident is 50%. So, it makes it tricky to test, as you rightly assume. I have no idea if all conductor strands in your thick cable are in the same direction, they probably are - it would make things pretty impossible if they weren’t. If there is any writing on the thick cable jackets you can use that to keep the cables consistent since the jacket was most likely put on as the bare twisted wires came off the assembly line, but that’s a guess. You have to make some assumptions.

Am I right there? If so, I’ll try it when I get home and let you know. My guess is it should only take 10 minutes.

>>>>>I think that for interconnects or fuse it should take ten minutes. Speaker cables might be trickier.

I already explained why wire is directional in both DC and AC circuits. Several times. You have twisted what I said to suit your own imagination. I do not (rpt not) represent Audioquest or any other cable company. I only represent myself. Why would anyone have to represent some company to resister a different opinion? Hel-loo! You act as though you never heard of fuse or cable directionality. Which is OK. But directionality of cables and fuses has been well established, documented and experienced by *many tens of thousands of customers* since Audioquest and other progressive cable companies first started controlling cables for directionality twenty-five years ago and since high end fuse companies first determined fuses are directional. More than 80,000 Aftermarket Fuses, most of which I dare say are for AC circuits, have been sold since they were first introduced fifteen years ago. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Finally, you are still mistaken about what I mean by directionality. I do not (rpt not) mean wire acts like a diode, not at all. What I mean by directionality is simply that wire, all wire SOUNDS BETTER in one direction than the other. You would be hard pressed to observe any other phenomenon by reversing cables or fuses other than a change in the sound. Follow?

b4icu, maybe there’s a language or communication problem but I already explained it to you - the differences in sound between cables, ANY cables, even between cheap cables and very expensive cables, can be explained SOLELY by directionality. If you wish to be the proverbial ostrich with his head in the sand that’s your prerogative. Besides, I actually do not (rpt not) define the high end strictly by price. It is all about sound, not price. Sometimes price is correlated to sound quality, sometimes it’s not. So I’d appreciate it if you don’t put words in my mouth.

What we have here is failure to communicate. This whole “misunderstanding” regarding advanced audio concepts like directionality, burn in and purity of metals can probably best be explained by quantum physics. You see, think of me as an electron in a higher energy shell and you’re a lower energy electric orbiting in a lower energy electron shell. It takes too much energy for you to get to the higher energy electron shell, up where I am.