I've found a seller in the UK (chameleoncable on ebay) that sells 0 awg OFC copper cable. b4icu was kind enough to advise me that my set up (classe ct5300 -> B&W 802) would need 4 awg.
I've spoken with the seller and he'll make me up 4 x 2.5m 0awg cables with spades on each end for around £150. I think that's not a bad experiment for the money. My amp and speaker terminals are all at floor level so the weight won't be a problem.
If there's no sonic difference from my Van Dam blue 4mm, it should look cooler using 0 awg cable!
And if that doesn't work, I've also ordered some of that 12 awg silver cable mentioned earlier in the thread. Again, $120 for 10m of cable, you can't really go wrong.
Once I've had them made up and I've tried them out I'll post my findings. by all accounts I'm looking at a 60% upgrade. |
I'm assuming that the spade comments are for my benefit? If so, thanks.
I can get the cable unterminated and use a cable reducer to drop the cable down to 4awg. Once it's 4awg it'll fit in a banana plug. Or I can use a distribution block to join 0awg and 4awg and run a very short length of 4awg direct to the terminal on both ends. Would either of those approaches work? |
The cable I’m considering is actually closer to 2/0 awg, it has an area of 65mm, and he has the tools to crimp the spades on so I’m probably just going to go with that. I have good clearance around the binding posts on both the amp and the speakers.
separately:
What I don’t understand about this thread is that, usually, when a new product is brought to market everyone says "listen to it", "it depends on your system", "you’re the only one that can say for sure". Yet I’m suggesting I’m going to do exactly that and I’m branded a "sucker".
It’s a cheap experiment. If it does half of what’s claimed then great. If it does nothing, there’s nothing much lost. I’m going into this with a doubtful, but open, mind. |
Thanks for the image, the cables sure are going to be monsters.
I'm going to get them terminated with spades (spades/forks, not rings as in your picture) so there'll be no cutting of the terminals required.
Everything is very close to the floor so weight shouldn't be an issue, but I appreciate it might. If they won't fit then I might use a connecting block to convert the 0awg to 4mm cable for the last inch or two.
I appreciate the concern and I take your advice on board; I'll be careful. |
I ordered them from chameleoncables on ebay: 2 of these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192412561182And 1 of these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192044378960I spoke with the shop owner and he's going to cut the cable into 4 x 2.5 m lengths and terminate them so I have four black ends and four red ends. I might need to use a reducer or a termination block to connect the binding posts, but I have lots of room so it might fit directly. |
I ordered mine and they came in slightly cheaper than I was expecting, £125. They're being cut and crimped this weekend and will be shipped to me on Monday, I should have them hooked up at the end of the week so I'll report back with images. |
Do you have a link to those adaptors? I don’t think I came across any.
Nevermind actually, I googled. I might already have some bananas that’ll work.
My plan is to bend the spades back by 45 degrees to give myself additional clearance if needed. it’ll be interesting.
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@geoffkait , absolutely. While the logic and absolute-ness (in audio, indeed!) might not be agreed on by everyone, I'm an advocate of trying it and seeing how I get on. If bi-wiring has claims to work (ignoring any bi-amping, whether active or passive) then swapping the cable for one double thick run instead of two thinner runs should achive a similar effect. Maybe that's what's being seen here? Either way, agreeing that bi-wiring might work but this can't seems like a contradictory argument.
Again, I'm putting aside the argument presentation, the use of DF as a variable, and the maths involved in the calculation. I'm just talking about increasing the cable size, which is all we're really doing.
@b4icu, can we see inside those cables to see what's under the heat shrink? I'd be interested in to see how you've stepped down from 0 awg to bananas. Doesn't the thinner bridge cable act as a limiter? The weak link in the chain, if you will?
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I may be mistaken here, but isn’t the net effect of this and bi-wiring the same? My understanding is that bi-wiring
connects one pair of terminals at the amp end along four lengths of wire, connecting to four terminals at the speaker end. Given that both pairs of cable carry full range signals, what you’re effectively doing is increasing the gauge of the cable that’s delivering the signal to the speaker.
And that’s the same principle we’re talking about in this thread.
What b4icu is doing is setting a lower limit on the gauge of the cable that connects the speakers and amp. He’s been saying all along (I think) that it doesn’t matter whether you use one cable, two, or 10, as long as the combined gauge meets that lower limit, you’ll get the improvement.
Now, whether you agree that the DF of an amp is in any way an indicator of what cable you need, or whether b4icu has a formula that works, or even whether there’s a theoretical maximum gauge of cable for an amps DF (why not just go 8/0 and be done with it), is a separate point. As are cable weaves and twists, insulation material, termination solder material, etc.
My point is, like for like, bi-wired 12 awg should be the same as a single cable of 9 awg, so why wouldn’t upping the gauge to 0 have a bigger difference? Or is there some benefit to carrying the same full range signal along two cables?
Happy to be schooled, but I’m also going to try this idea out. |
I understand. I mistyped. I mean bi-wiring. I’ll edit my message so it’s consistent. |
Bringing this back to topic, b4icu, did you say that this doesn't work on class D amplifiers? If so, does that also go for class T as well? And what about for budget receivers and speakers, for example, I have this amp: https://www.cnet.com/products/sony-str-dh820/specs/ and B&W 684 speakers. What would the optimal cable be for that pairing, and, in your opinion, would it be worth it? As for bi-wiring, I'm going to test my current cable in a bi wire set up. If that offers an improvement over single wire with a solid silver jumper cable then I'll compare that against the 0 awg when it arrives. If that sounds better again, I might even bi wire the 0 awg. If it works, great. If it doesn't I can use it in another system. |
You're right, sorry, I forgot cable length. The length is 2m for that system.
No, I'm not going to connect that receiver with two 0 awg wires, apologies for the confusion.
I have three "systems".
An HT/listening room: classe ct5300 -> 2.5m cable -> B&W 802
A family room TV: Sony DH820 -> 2m cable -> B&W 604
An office system: Class T amp -> 2m cable -> B&W 805
You could say I like the B&W house sound :)
The plan is to use 0 awg in the HT
Prior to that upgrade I'll try bi-wiring with my current 4mm cable. If that makes a significant improvement, and the 0 awg is an improvement over the bi-wire, then I might order more 0 awg and see what bi-wiring does with that. Again, that's all in the HT.
If the bi-wire in the cinema offers no improvement I was thinking about where else I could use that cable. I'm probably getting ahead of myself. I'm sure you're going to tell me not to bother bi-wiring with 0 awg anyway, in which case I'll likely leave it.
Thanks again for all this information and time. My new cable ships tomorrow so I'll tell you how it sounds and give you pictures later this week. |
Good point. I won't involve myself and perpetuate the misunderstanding.
That said, I am in a position to try it, so I will.
Much like b4icu's 0 awg cable recommendation. It's going to be an experimentation week. |
I appreciate your instructions and they're what I'm following. 2.5m of 0 awg. I'm really just thinking aloud about other possibilities.
Also, in the course of this thread I've come to realise that I can test out bi-wiring my 802s. But that's of no real relevance here, you're right.
To be clear, I'm taking your advice, I've ordered what you suggested, and that's what I'll feed back on. Thanks. |
@geoffkait I think I know what it is, but I don't understand the reasons behind it offering any improvement. I'm no electrical engineer so I'm no position to talk about impedance, conductance, and resistance, or how the length, gauge, or number of cables alters their relationship. I'll freely admit that.
Like I said, I'll try bi-wiring as well as part of my experiments. I don't need to understand why it works to hear the difference. |
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My cables arrived today. They're beasts! As suspected the forks won't sit in binding posts without an adaptor. I'm currently using banana plugs. Here's an image of the before and after cables: https://imgur.com/a/De0LmuG (credit card for scale). I hooked them up and there's a definite improvement. The sound is more transparent. I need to listen more but I'm happy with this investment. I'm going to replace the bananas with some bolt on ones: https://uk.farnell.com/staubli/22-1053/banana-plug-50a-4mm-screw-m4/dp/1085560, that'll give me a better connection. The current plugs are on tight, but it'll be nice to get a stronger hold. The stiffness of the cables means that there's actually very little weight on the binding posts as the cables stand up straight from the floor. Thank you b4icu. As you said to me, where else can I get that level of upgrade for that money. I'm interested in getting another set for my centre now. |
My previous cables, Van Damm Blue 4mm, as in the picture. |
Of course:
Amp: Classe CT-5300
Speakers: B&W 802 Nautilus
Previous Cable: 4mm / 12 awg, 2.5 m
Cost is £25 for the 5 meters
New cable: 0 awg, 2.5 m (I was recommended at 4 awg but was told 0 would be fine)
Impressions: more detailed, more transparent. Like another layer has been peeled back from what was, in my opinion, an already transparent system. |
I went with Van Dam cable as that’s offered by Mark Grant Cables, a well known and well respected cable maker (in the UK at least).
its also the cables they use in Abbey Road studios, who also happen to use classe amps and B&W speakers.
when I got the amp I spoke with Classe about the best implementation (bi-wire, bi-amp, cables, etc) and their response was: single channel on the amp for each speaker, balanced cables on longer runs, and the van damme cable would be fine.
finally, there’s plenty of user reviews comparing VDB to audioquest, chord etc, some preferring the VD and some not.
Either way, b4icu said he’d recommend a cable that would give me an improvement. I tried it, it did. I don’t see the problem.
And now he’s two for two. |
Thanks, I reviewed.
It looks good for me in terms of score.
I replaced like for like in terms of length (so 2 x 2.5m was replaced with 2 x 2.5m). The cost of the new cables was £130 ($170) for a stereo pair of 5 m. |
That looks like tin plated copper rather than OFC. |
Yup. I bought this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5M-0-AWG-65mm-OVERSIZED-BLUE-POWER-CABLE-5-METRES-PURE-COPPER-0-GAUGE-OFC...and had the guy cut and crimp spade connectors on to the ends. I then added bolt on bananas to the spades which work really well. It improved the sound quality of my speakers (B&W 802N). Sounds are clearer and less congested. Continued listening and swapping back and forth reveals the same result. Others have said the same, including my wife. For the £150 or so it cost me I would heartily recommend it. I upgraded from Van Dam blue speaker cable. I stopped posting on the thread as everything that's being said is just getting shouted down by a very vocal few who are apparently unwilling to believe that there could possibly be something in this. I've been called an idiot, told that my cables were crap, and that they were oxidising (they're not). The improvements were put down to me swtiching from unterminated cable to terminated, at one point. Personally I think it's to do with argument presentation. If this had been presented as "guys, I think I might have found something, have a go, what do you think..." we would have had a lot more traction. Much like happened in the Doug Schroder Method thread. It baffles me how that idea can be so lauded and recieved with open minds when this is just met with closed doors. No doubt I'll get a bunch of responses explaining why I'm wrong and how I don't understand anything. I'm going back to lurking. If you want more info feel free to message me. |
For what it’s worth, I’d never spoken to Michael before this thread, we didn’t know each other. I’m not some plant for his grand marketing plan. (Exactly what a plant would say, right?)
I approached him via PM about how to do this, what I’d need, and whether he’d be able to build and supply (for a fee). He said he would. Unfortunately his prices are beyond my reach so, with his help, I went DIY. |
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I’m the UK guy. Geoff’s right, the cable I replaced with the custom 0AWG cables aren’t “high end” (van damme blue). I read the review of them, and it’s not great. I’ve also given my reasons for choosing them.
My personal dilemma with this whole thing was whether I think speaker cables matter at all. If they don’t, then what cable I choose doesn’t matter so the van dame blue or the 0AWG should be the same. If they do then it’s a gamble as to whether they’re an upgrade or not. Lots of variables. The 0AWG sounded better, but that could have been for lots of reasons: oxidation, the cable, or just the matter of re-seating them.
Anyway, to test, ive bought myself a length of kimber 12TC cable. Hopefully we can agree that cable is closer to “high end” and that my “mid-high end” system, as I’m guessing some would call it
would reveal the differences? I would hope so.
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I’ve EQd the room <1000Hz to within +-3db down to about 8Hz. My mic isn’t accurate above that. I’m waiting on my calibrated mic which I’ll get in March.
im using all digital sources ranging from Spotify through flac from HDTracks up to Sacd (Telarc, plus others) and DSD 512. My dac is only good until 24/192, but I have an alternative dac that supports full DSD as well, it’s just not in my main system (it’s only 2 channel).
So, all things being equal, my system is high-end (RME HDSP, Classé ct-5300, B&W 802N) The cable is high end? The room is ok? The sources are ok? I should hear a difference, right? |
I’m not trying to be cryptic or trap anyone. An important factor in any good experiment design is to determine what success looks like.
I’ve done everything I think I can: dedicated power circuits, decent components, good sources, good speakers, room analysis, there’s really not much more I can do. I’m trying to put myself in the best position to determine if I can hear a difference between speaker cables. If I can, great, if I can’t, then they’re going back. They might go back anyway if they don’t make enough of a difference. And no, I don’t know what “enough” is for me to feel like I’m getting good value.
anyway. I’ll report back when I’ve tried them out. |
@geoffkait
Regarding directionality, while I'm skeptical, I hope I've shown that I'm always willing to experiment and to find out for myself. If I've understood you correctly, all wire is directional and the difference between the "right" way and the "wrong" way (or maybe "most appropriate" and "least appropriate" ways) should be audible.
My questions to you are:
- do I need to get all cables the "right" way around to hear the benefit, so will it only work if I have the power cable, the interconnect, and the speaker cable all the "right" way around? Or will just the speaker cable be enough?
- would you expect a difference on only the positive leg of the speaker cable? Given that the negative leg is returning to the amplifier, this should be less audible, right? In the same way that the return path of an AC signal is heading back towards the amp and is therefore less audible/important.
- should the change be immediately obvious or do I need a burn in for the directional crystals to settle or something?
I'm asking as this is a very easy experiment for me to try. Given my new 0AWG cables I can flip the positive, negative, or both cables with reasonable ease. If I only need to get the positive "right" then I only have one cable to flip. If I have to get both "right" then one of the four combinations should sound better than the others. I guess one combination would sound worst (both "wrong"), two would sound similar (one "right" and one "wrong") and one should sound best (both "right").
Am I right there? If so, I'll try it when I get home and let you know. My guess is it should only take 10 minutes. |
Good stuff, thanks for the info. I'll do some tests.
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Not quite. I didn't stick to the rules about gauge for these.
And I was on 0 gauge before. :) |
I swapped mine out for solid silver cables. Partly to tidy up on the cables in what is a fairly tight space.
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I'm very happy with them.
I got 2x1m and 1x2m cables, each with 8 silver solid core wire, cryo'd, with built in jumpers at the speaker ends, solid sliver spades, and made with silver solder. Each cable is in a teflon sleeve, then litz braided, then covered in an outer sleeve. Additionally I had mine covered in nylon braid, just for aesthetics.
I also got 5x1m XLR cables. Total cost was £540.
I'm was going to get some clearday and cabledyne cables as well, to compare, but clearday aren't making any more and cabledyne aren't in stock.
As for sound, they're very nice. Not too much added brightness, a little more clarity and transparency, and better instrument placement. I think I'm limited by my physical space now, rather than any component or cable.
So far I've tried: van damme blue (not highly rated), 0 gauge battery cable (a step up from van damme, but that might just be a cable maintenance issue), kimber 12TC (nice, but a nightmare to work with).
I've got to a point where I'm probably going to stop looking at cables for this system until I move. Once I have a larger room with better dimensions I'll come back to them. At the moment I feel I've got about the right level of price vs performance that I can get in my current space. |
