No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
It goes back to cable manufaturars, mostly provide no relevant data! to sales and the users. None will answer this! Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup? I think I've figured it out.
Mr.
han_n In your case (1,000W amplified bass tower and a ribbon mid/high tower), this issue is of less significance. However, if we are here agin, As the CH M1 has a variable fedback (FB) control, what is your FB set, to have the optimum sound? (on my conversation with CH, this was brought out up front, because as you can see from their reply, it has an effect on the DF).
Mr. mechans2 You have tube amplifiers, that's DF is not given by it's chiness spec. Your speaker's cable name do not provide me much data' of length nor gauge. However, thick speaker cables do not apply to tube amplifiers.
Mr. khiak The Goldmund Telos 600 does not specify the DF. Please be kind to check it up for me. The other data I need is the cable
required
length. Thanks
@b4icu Honestly speaking, I have tried some different M1 settings in combination with the ribbons, but to my ears no major differences. I'm working out of town, so I can't check what the last settings are. All I can confirm that even IF there are differences, I can't distinguish them from each other with my ears, and using ribbons. In my case, other factors have a much bigger influence on the overall sound, and mainly with regards to room acoustics. Main reason for acquiring the M1 is related to dynamics and transparency. I can only judge by listening, I'm not an electrical engineer so I have to go with what my ears tell me.
What gauge is your poweramps secondary windings? This size defines how much power your amp will be able to push out. Forget about the amps max wattt rating, it is the amps dynamic capasity that defines the need of wiregauge.
Mine has 2x9awg windings pr side so I`m running 7awg solid to the woofers
Mr.
khiak Could you please provide me the serial numbers of your
Goldmund Telos 600 amplifiers? Mr. Rodolphe from Goldmund Swiss asked me about it. I'm waiting for his replay, but the S/N may help. Thanks It is a mystery that this second Swiss firm, with extremely high end products, dosn't provide the data on their DFs.
Mr.
khiak
Thanks. The data was passed to Mr. Rodolphe at Goldmund. I assume that they will replay tomorrow or Mon. Its is 6 pm now in Swiss, 7pm here in Israel. Sorry for the delay...
They tend to get lose after some time. A continuous maintenance of
fastening the binding posts is required. Banana plugs are way better.
For those who try to implement a thick cable (4 gauge or thicker), the
spades that can fit the cable are too large to fit the binding posts. You may
lose on that contact between the spade and the binding post some of what you
gain from a thicker cable.
For me, if an amp or speaker is not fitted for a banana plug, I'll would
avoid it!
I'm assuming that the spade comments are for my benefit? If so, thanks.
I can get the cable unterminated and use a cable reducer to drop the cable down to 4awg. Once it's 4awg it'll fit in a banana plug. Or I can use a distribution block to join 0awg and 4awg and run a very short length of 4awg direct to the terminal on both ends. Would either of those approaches work?
What
is it you have about speaker cables? Nothing.
It's all against, right?
What is it that you scrawl out under your stone all the sudden after six pages
of this thread is going on?
What
firm is that supporting you, that got all the sudden scared from being exposed?
At
the time you are shouting all over NO, you better come up with something to
explain this speaker cable mystery. In other word, please say what YES.
This
is the pasta party. Not the "Antipasti" party, which is a small pasta
with a negative attitude. This is mirror time.
What
"buying spots and clocks" has to do with this? You found
out that all the rest, like directional cables, burn in, cryogenic treat and
skin effect were un useful so you dig
the buying spots and clocks In a
forgotten drawer, never yet used with speaker cables, maybe it will work now?
Mr. conradnash
The thicker wire to fit a banana plug I know of, is 8 AWG. You better check that the wires / cables are sold to you, are what they claim they are. I wrote on some car cable kit (US made) that were fake in size! they claimed a 4 AWG taht turned out to be an 8 AWG... Try to keep the transaction between the thick cabe (4 AWG or 0 AWG), to the binding post as shord and of the the best qality. Do not trust poor connections or lose once. Some of you here have too good equipment to risk it with a $100 DIY advanture.
The cable I’m considering is actually closer to 2/0 awg, it has an area of 65mm, and he has the tools to crimp the spades on so I’m probably just going to go with that. I have good clearance around the binding posts on both the amp and the speakers.
separately: What I don’t understand about this thread is that, usually, when a new product is brought to market everyone says "listen to it", "it depends on your system", "you’re the only one that can say for sure". Yet I’m suggesting I’m going to do exactly that and I’m branded a "sucker".
It’s a cheap experiment. If it does half of what’s claimed then great. If it does nothing, there’s nothing much lost. I’m going into this with a doubtful, but open, mind.
b4icu What "buying spots and clocks" has to do with this? You found out that all the rest, like directional cables, burn in, cryogenic treat and skin effect were un useful so you dig the buying spots and clocks In a forgotten drawer, never yet used with speaker cables, maybe it will work now?
>>>>So, just because you declare these things irrelevant, hotshot, doesn’t make it so. Nor does ignoring metal purity enhance your self proclaimed expertise. Maybe if you close your eyes and hold your breath and stomp your foot they’ll just go away.
We see this sort of thing from time to time, where someone is working in a vacuum without access to or ignoring all the advancements that have been made in cable performance, fuse performance, and power cord performance. It’s called Stove Piping. 🏭 I did not create reality.
When in doubt, try it out.........isn't that what we all do anyway? Some things seem to work for some people, in some systems, some things don't. If I do something to my system and hear an improvement, but you can't replicate the results, does that make it BS??? .........I recall years ago a product that was called........I think......Maringo dots.......Tiny little things that you were supposed to strategically place in your listening room for wondrous results........Never bought them, thought it HAD to be BS...........but I'm sure some people did and maybe they even thought it made a difference................Stop beating the poor guy up. If you don't buy what's he's selling.........free I might add......don't try it........or try it for a few bucks...........It won't cost anymore than dozens of other "tweeks" that we've tried before, often with questionable results..........How is his theory any crazier than a lot of the stuff that you probably paid good money for in hopes of better sound.........As high tech as this hobby can be....and expensive, isn't it worth a few bucks to at least TRY it before you flame the guy...............Maybe it's BS, maybe it works, haven't had time to try it myself, but until and unless I do I have to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and a little respect at least....Everybody deserves that much and he's not asking you for money, just an open mind............jeez
I have correct speaker cables, for me, when I hear more than I’ve heard before and didn’t spend an arm and a leg to do so. Plus, the overall balance and stage are "just right."
1. The Manley NEO 250 monoblocks is tube amplification (not much of difference with Damping Factor Triode: 14.8). 2. Cable length is missing. 3. You claim: " I have correct speaker cables ". Is that a real request to get help with new cables? 4. At
the time, your posts were so aggressive, that I took the liberty to be polite
and ignore them.
I’ll do say, that there is a no much sense in matching a Thiel CS2.4 to a Manley NEO 250! https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs24-loudspeaker-measurements https://www.manley.com/hifi/n250/ That is a 4 ohms speaker and goes down to 2.73 ohms at 600Hz ! with 88dB/w/m SPL. one of the most difficult to drive. I hope you enjoy the Manley NEO 250 1.5% THD and its 14.8 DF vs. 2.73 ohms... In your case the cables are the last to worry about.
I love Kimber Kable (12TC). 8' pair cost $750. Chinese Kimber cost $45. Found out they have the same specs, so they sound the same. I did not have to listen to the expensive ones.
I’m impressed you had mentioned specs. What specs of the Kimber Kable (12TC) cables is the one that you think would make it a perfect match to your system (Amp. and Speakers)?
Regarding the signal loss graph, I think that the vertical (x) should have been dB rather than m Ohms. Even then, it is a good sample of from where and why the skin effect might have came from…
Kimber always used wire counter on their products. What would do, to make their cable prevail over others? That’s right: The skin effect. As no other makes it that way, skin effect would be a good marketing argument. Is it for real? NO. But those who fall in this scheme, can bring it up on my thread as a saying to earn more points on posts.
From your post, the strongest saying is that you managed to get around with a $45 Chinese Kimber over an original for $750. Well done Sir.
It reminds me a boy who came home and say to his dad: I just saved you $2.50.
How come asks his father?
I run after a bus rather than take a ride.
Well said his dad:
Next time you better run after a taxi and save me $25.-
Here are two spades (I call them also cable shoes: an 8 AWG and a 1/0 AWG. I laid them on a $50 bill, for you to have true size and proportions. Both are quite a tight fit to the wires, to ensure best contact when crimped.
A 2/0 AWG is thicker than a 1/0 AWG. Never used a 2/0 AWG, but the gauge table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm Say that a 1/0 AWG has a 8.25246 mm in diameter, and a 2/0 AWG has a 9.26592 mm in diameter. It’s 10% or 1mm thicker wire.
I do not see a way that the flat side of that spade, even if you cut its front center out, is getting into a standard binding post.
I only try to save you some disappointment, when you get to the "bridge" and want to cross it.
I also would like to remind you, that the weight of a 2/0 AWG pulling down this spade from a binding post, is not the match I would like to see.
Some guys here, have equipment accesses of $1/4M! I would not dear to risk in that way. Please use extra caution.
Mr. khiak I sincerely apologize for the delay. Here is the answer of Mr. Rodolphe BOULANGER, of Goldmund from Swiss, arrived short while ago: 10:58 12/10/2018 (Israel time).
"Dear Michael,
email well received as well as S/N .
The damping factor is Telos 600 damping factor: 400 at 1 KHz, on 8 Ω.
I hope it helps.
Thanks.
Best Regards.
Rodolphe BOULANGER Sales Director"
For 1.5m long cable @ 400DF you will need a 4 AWG cable.
Thanks for the image, the cables sure are going to be monsters.
I'm going to get them terminated with spades (spades/forks, not rings as in your picture) so there'll be no cutting of the terminals required.
Everything is very close to the floor so weight shouldn't be an issue, but I appreciate it might. If they won't fit then I might use a connecting block to convert the 0awg to 4mm cable for the last inch or two.
I appreciate the concern and I take your advice on board; I'll be careful.
Well done. You reached 11,881 posts. Yes, this is the way to have 12,000 posts soon. This may explain your reluctant nagging since I opened this thread. Clock in a digital audio device is jitter related. What jitter has to do with a speaker cable? Do you even understand what jitter is? Why it is of any concern, how much jitter is audible, and when does jitter becomes valid? You are accusing me of: " So, just because you declare these things irrelevant, hotshot, doesn’t make it so". At a time you just bring up things without supporting them by any technical background or sense, I doubt you if you understand them at all!
Good luck chuck with the 12,000 posts. Must be the achievement of your life time.
Do you collect any other points? Wal-Mart, Safeway, Gas station? Must be a lot of fun.
>>>>Wow! Let me point out it was you who misspoke technically when you stated the conductivity of silver is 9% greater than copper. Why you would assume you’re the only one who understands technical things here is simply bizarre. Can I suggest you might not be quite ready for prime time?
b4icu, Many thanks for your advice. Presently I bi-amp the Kharma with a Telos 600 driving the 25mm diamond tweeter and 165mm ceramic mid and another Telos 600 driving the 330mm Nomex-Kevlar woofer. Is both cable the same at 4AWG? What if I move the amps closer to the speaker and have 1 m cables instead? Thanks
Mr. khiak Bi-wire is another urban legend, established in the 90’s. For a single cable at a X AWG is better than Bi-wire that the two, equals to the cross section or resistance of X AWG! This can be proved by simulation of the two circuits on "Spice". A cooper cable can conduct all audio frequencies at the same time. Some older TV designs, used wide band amplifiers, that would amplify two different frequency bande (IF and audio) to save.
As long as you are using your Telos 600, the wires need to be: 4 AWG@1.5m or 6 AWG@1.0m.
Can not find ant spec of your cables. Most are the Enigma...model. Also no Spec.
Mr.
khiak You are welcome. All I'm asking in return, that you share with us your impressions from that exchange. Thanks.
How much did you pay for a set of 2m Kharma KESL Speaker cable?
I did find 5AWG high end bananas. I would like to try the 3/0 cables the OP suggested based on my 20 foot runs and gear. I may try 0 AWG. Problem is the cost to try is $400. I like the sound of stranded tinned copper wire sold by folks like Duelund, Supra, and Western Electric and always wondered if thicker gauge would sound even better based on my long lengths. There is a source for this as thick as 4/0 AWG. If the bananas were stackable I could split the thick conductor into two equal parts and terminate with stacked bananas or a combo of banana and spade. I have not found a high end 5 AWG spade connector however.
If if anyone finds a spade or banana of good quality, very important, that accepts 4 AWG or thicker let us know.
I am open minded to this and if the cost to try was lower I would do it. I would not use anything other than high purity, oxygen free, stranded tinned copper for this however. The strands need to fine. The connectors also need to be of high quality. As mentioned above, one can split the conductor into two equal parts and terminate with a combo of spade and banana connectors.
Here is a link for the 5 AWG banana connectors. Just scroll down to find them.
Here is a link to the stranded and tinned bulk cable I would use. The maker offers all kinds of gauges. I think they were referred to in another post above. I do not know if the wire used sounds as good as Duelund, WE, or Supra. The Duelund is cryo treated and that does make a positive sound quality difference. I know the OP has a different opinion. I have done comparisons and not sure if he has. My opinion is based on actual testing and listening. I suppose one could send out this wire to be cryo treated.
One last point. To effectly reduce noise, especially over long runs, one really must twist the positive and negative runs. Well twisting this thick cable will give you a very thick bundle! Just something to consider.
I read through most of the posts and get the notion of the thicker the better for resistance but might have missed references to the inductance and the capacitance that these very thick cables add to the mix. Wouldn’t the additional inductance and capacitance act as low pass and high pass filters, respectively, and cause frequency roll-offs? Was this issue addressed in the exchanges among the "experts"?
The thick cable are separates. As so, no capacitance is developed. Capacitance is defined as the dielectric value developed between two metal plates at a steady distance... The cables are meant to be as short as possible. There are no extra wire on the floor that get coiled to create inductance. The Z of such a cable, if any, is negligible. Because the R is so low, capacitance or inductance are negligible.
My solution, as seen on one of my posts, was to use a short 8 AWG agent wire, between the banana plug and the thick cable. It is also good for the strain relief on the contact point of the cable with the binding posts.
Even if I would find a banana plug that could take a 0 AWG cable, I doubt it if I would use it.
Keep in mind that it is difficult to work with a 0 AWG cable. It is very different then the ordinary 12-14 AWG cables.
I like the idea of direct connection much better with high quality connectors. The resulting sound will be better. The idea of splitting the cable into two equal portions and terminating with a spade and banana for direct connection to the binding post is a good option. It reduces the strain on each connector also. The wire link I gave is for very finely stranded copper (thousands) with is very flexible and easier to work with. It is pure copper, not copper clad aluminum which would not sound as good.
I ordered mine and they came in slightly cheaper than I was expecting, £125. They're being cut and crimped this weekend and will be shipped to me on Monday, I should have them hooked up at the end of the week so I'll report back with images.
Nice choices. Let us know. I saw those same spades and they should works nicely. If to big or bulky to fit, then you can buy spade to banana high quality connectors.
b4icu, I will share my impression on this exchange. I paid $25k for 2 pair after discount. The Goldmund amp have 2 male BNC output for speaker connections. Anybody know where I can buy the female connectors. I plan to connect the 6AWG cable by this connection if I can source the female connectors. Many thanks to all.
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