Honestly, I would stay away from the Cary SLP-05. It is a massive unit and too “tubey” sounding to the point that it loses the holography. It also doesn’t have a very low noise floor, which is very important for headphones.
My pics would be:
PS Audio BHK Preamp - can be had used for $3500 or less. Hybrid tube input stage. Fully balanced topology. Incredible imaging and tone across the board.
Audio Mirror Linea - this delivers a more liquid, organic and warm sound while still retaining a good amount of detail. In my opinion the best bang for the buck if you are truly looking for a barebones solution. It’s $3K new and only has three sets of single ended inputs and one set of outputs.
I’ve heard both units beat out other preamps exponentially more expensive than them.
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@cming0038 : Hi, if I were looking for a new preamp in the $10K or less price range the Aric Audio Motherlode II or the Barkert Labs Rythm would be on my short list. Good hunting. Jeff
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I was in your shoes recently and I went with an ALLNIC L-6500 and love it!
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Thank you @blisshifi @yoby @ervikingo for your great suggestions! Now I remember PS Audio and Backert are occassionally mentioned on here as well.
Considering I live in Asia region, it seems that Audio Mirror and Aric Audio are out of my reach for audition sadly...I might be able to try out PS Audio and Allnic given that there are distributors here.
As for Backert, even though there's not a demo, it's good that you can return the preamp within 14 days in case not satisfied. I will try to contact them and see if they provide shipping service across half the earth haha.
@ervikingo could you share more about your experience with the L-6500? Would love to have some understanding about it before I get the chance to audition!
Thanks again!!
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The Aesthetix Pallene should be added to your list...
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I moved from a Rogue RP-07 to a Cary SLP-05 and it added like to my music. I hear the RP-09 is an all around better SQ than the 07. One thing that drew to the Cary was the tube rectified power supply. It is two larger separate units but if you have the space I might give it a try. It was an end game unit for me. Very happy. I know there has been some negative reviews on support but I have not experienced any issues. I do know there are many very positive reviews and happy owners. I’m not sure you can wrong.
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If you do not want warmth and want a perfectly silent background, then check out the Holo Serene and Benchmark LA4. I used the HPA4 (same as LA4) with a warm Meze headphones and it was very good. I have not heard the Serene yet but the LA4 is my fav with 2-channel systems, since you do not hear it.
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++ Aesthetix and Backert. Currently own the Calypso and have heard the Rhumba Extreme. Outstanding linestages.
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I would recommend a used Audio Research Ref 5SE or REF 6. The current model is Ref 6SE which is nearly $20K… very worth the money. I have owned many. It REF 6SE is the center of my system. But from your description this is likely best fit. Or Conrad Johnson or VAC… these are the top tier and well worth it. Used is fine they are built to last decades.
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Ear-Yoshino 912, Atma-Sphere MP-3 (or MP-1 used).
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I’m going to second the ARC Ref 6SE. They come up used once in a while at $12k ish….
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Conrad Johnson ET5 or ET7
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That sounds like an unusual arrangement for a Stax amp. Bypass its internal preamp with an external one? There is no such preamp stage in most direct-drive Stax amps, which need to supply 50 - 60 dB net gain (more similar to phono stage, minus the EQ). I guess you could bypass the volume control, or perhaps you’re dealing with a design that puts traditional pre & power amp stages before some output step-up transformers to supply the needed gain.
Anyways, you can’t go wrong with the ARC Reference 6 or 6SE. They’re fantastic. Or a VAC Signature (used) if you want more midrange sweetness. I’ve tested both (well, a VAC Master in my case) feeding headphone amps, and yep they sound great. I also had an RP-9, and it has a leaner midrange with less sweetness than the ARC and VAC. Though I did also try the RP-9 feeding a headphone amp, and it can indeed work well too - nice punchy bass. The Ref 6 and VAC have a lower noise floor than RP-9. There are reasons they cost more.
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Also, quite honestly I prefer Rogue’s older Athena and Hera models over the 9, but I understand I’m a bit of an oddball ;)
I currently have a VAC Master, ARC Ref 6, and VAC Renaissance III in my stable and I STILL hang onto an Athena because I just like it and it’s so good for the money (I regretted selling my Hera). It's dirt cheap compared to these other preamps, when it does pop up for sale.
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Zesto Leto Ultra is a fantastic preamp
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Take a hard look at the SST Ambrosia. World Class pre with excellent phono and headphone amp as well as single ended and fully balanced connections. Competes with about anything out there and can be found used on occasion
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You can also check out some postamps
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Luxman. Easily accessible in Asia for demo. You can choose between SS or tube.
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I am trying to add a slight bit of warmth, plus better dynamics and imaging.
@cming0038
Hmm.. I am thinking like this ..
I am NOT a headphones guy at all for me the soundstage is weird when the singer is IN my head and not the normal/natural in front of me.. Another unnatural thing is how ever you turn your body/head the singer and song is unaffected meaning if some sound is has a source from a point in the space. It should still be coming from the same point in space regardless how I turn my head.
But all that is easily getting used to but for me speakers is my preference.
Saying all that my testing has been only with speakers of old research from Dr Floyd Toole on how our hearing more precisely works. He for example come up with "interaural crosstalk cancelation" and the issues that brings us audiophiles (those that sit in the sweet spot and listen).
That has been since then tried to be solved from his findings by Carver and Polk Audio among others.
Those old attempts were done in old HW realms today we have powerful computing powers..
So a modern and much more effective and accurate system is in the market today.
That WILL improve imaging to a point that can't be matched by ANY speaker cost no object (when they can't cancel out the crosstalk to the other ear, just that simple.) Now I can only talk about speakers when I have not tested with headphones.
But there is also a headphone add-on (that i haven't tried) that is fooling people at shows when the listening to headphones and sitting in front of a pair of speakers they thought that the sound were coming from the speakers itself.. and when they took the headphones of their he'd they realize that the speakers were off! (That is what I am calling soundstage!)
So when/if you have that money to burn then instead of swap out a good component to gain something maybe marginal better and just a little bit different..
Instead ADD this filter to your existing gear and GAIN so much more than you will ever be able to get by swapping gear that is doing the same duty and having diminishing returns working against you.
Look into BACCH4Mac that is their most price worthy gear:
Theoretica was founded by Dr. Edgar Choueiri, a Professor of Applied Physics in the Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering Department at Princeton University, Associated Faculty of the Department of Astrophysical Sciences, and Director of the University's Engineering Physics Program. He is Chief Scientist at the University's Electric Propulsion and Plasma Dynamics Lab, a leading research laboratory in the field of advanced spacecraft propulsion. He is also the Director of Princeton University's 3D Audio and Applied Acoustics (3D3A) Lab, where the BACCH 3D Sound technology, which lies at the heart of many Theoretica products, was initially developed.
This is the most bang for your buck you can get in my opinion. And why nobody else is blurring about this on the net i don't know maybe the new product addition is rather new and bringing the pricing down with use if the Mac, considerably (tenfold).
So this technology that is founded on solid and proved science regarding our hearing and how our brain process it. And more or less all of these types of upgrades is wasteful in comparison.
I have been playing around the Interaural Crosstalk Cancellation (ICC) with speakers and the effects is big. The best analogi i can come up with is :
If you are old enough you remember there were on some amplifiers a "Stereo" button there you could engaging and disengaging stereo or not. It were such success that the stereo is now default and the button is gone! When I go back and forth with engage and disengage the ICC i can't imagine who does NOT want to use it.. And should be the new standard and norm!
Today another "silly" analogy:
Imagine when "stereo" were introduced at the 50-ties. And a audiophile is still sitting and investing cost no object mono system and switching components. And thinking that he could get the same effects that the neighbour basic new stereo system has.
And no he has physical not the preconditions to begin able to create stereo with one speaker regardless of if it is THE best speaker in the whole world.. 😜
And that is what I basically is upset about when I see all the (~>97%) YouTube, forums like this place talking about:
Should I buy X or Y ? or The best Y for under $10000. And so on..
And they ALL just get a FRACTION of the experience for their money by swapping out the same gear!
Maybe the technology with tracking head (.. and ears) and system calibration with frequency sweeps with binaural (your) head calibration is just swishing over peoples heads! 🤔
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@op - it always helps to provide as much information as possible.
Which Stax Earspeakers and which energiser are you currently using?
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You absolutely should try the Backert Rhumba Extreme or Rhythm.
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The one we build! LOL At $10K you can afford one!
Happy Listening.
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My journey in the last few years has been BHK, replaced with Rogue RP7, replaced with ARC 6SE, finally replaced with Backert Labs Rhythm.
The BHK sounded best with 6-7 volt tubes, but was noisy with them in my admittedly overpowered system.
The Rogue was nice but I wanted a bit more resolution.
The ARC was hard and aggressive sounding.
The Backert is wonderful! Perfect balance of warm, resolving, no issues, only two tubes, responds well to tube rolling, including 12sn7 with adapters.
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Question for the group. The OP is looking for "slight bit of warmth, plus better dynamics and imaging" and is asking for pre-amp suggestions to help with that. Is a pre-amp the right tool to solve this issue? Or would looking at different headphones make more sense?
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Question for the group. The OP is looking for "slight bit of warmth, plus better dynamics and imaging" and is asking for pre-amp suggestions to help with that. Is a pre-amp the right tool to solve this issue? Or would looking at different headphones make more sense?
It (somewhat) depends who you ask. This approach is not without precedence. The traditional "problem" with Stax headphones specifically, compared to dynamics and planars, has been lack of warmth (on some models, like 009) and weight in bass. There's a guy who was using a high-end tube preamp into a $14K Eksonic T2 (direct drive electrostatic amp) to try and "flesh out" the sound. But after reporting initial success, I'm not sure he stuck with that setup. Another example: the Woo 3ES is reportedly a fancy 300B preamp stage bolted in before an Apex op-amp based direct drive circuit. The implication being that the 300B stage in this case is not really necessary; it's there to color the sound in a pleasing manner.
In my somewhat limited experience on the matter of pre-amping a headphone amp - you can move the needle a bit in the intended direction with a preamp, but indeed I would lean to the camp that one should keep searching to choose a headphone + amp combo that is more attuned to your preferences, rather than try to add another preamp upstream. I found my "match" with a different T2 build (different HV transistors makes a HUGE difference, more than rolling the tubes in these amps) and Stax 009 headphones :)
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Most will agree (or not!) that ARC is known for quality pre-amps. I would not be shy about buying a used one, but check the reviews. Some are "better" than others for certain types of systems. They started in the 1970's with the SP-3, and even those go for HUGE dollars still today. Newer ones are improved. I personally use an SP-6B with Maggies and it is amazingly good. BUT, it has to sound good to YOU in YOUR ROOM. Happy shopping!
Cheers.
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Thank you everyone for your suggestions and elaborate reply! I feel so welcomed here <3 Very nice of you all!
I have been jotting down the names of these brands, and looking up where I can try all of them...seems Backert and ARC are rated pretty highly here!
@bdp24 I've come across EAR Yoshino too! Though if I don't use phono, is 912L still worthit, or 868L will be more good for buck?
@celtic66 I've actually used Luxman's DA-250 some time ago. It had great sound except a rather weak bass XD. Which model would you suggest? Given that their CL-1000 costs like 14k in my place lol
@optimize I would like to get into speakers one day as well. The prices of housing in my city is just crazy. We're talking about an average of 2k per sq. ft. and so. my room is just too small to create a good setup :P
@yoyoyaya I'm currently using Stax T-8000 amp and SR-009 (BK version if it make a difference). I've never tried out a BHSE due to lack of distributor, but T-8000 dtill delivered a good sound imo, good treble, vocal. Dynamic and bass was lacking a little, but improved (especially the bass) as I rolled some Telefunken CCA tubes. Currently a happy man, but just want to go even further by adding some sweetness and dynamic!
@mulveling hello! Your opinion on RP-9 here was part of why I got interested in this preamp! Fact that it could keep up with a Ref 6 SE (despite less warmth) was great! It must be nice to have a T2 as well, and I'm jealous haha. The reason I've been looking for a preamp is that, reportedly (in some local forums) the T-8000 would benefit much with a good preamp. In fact even when I was trying out T-8000 with BYPASS on, connected to a DAC/AMP combo (burson conductor 3), there was some improvement already. That gives me a high expectation on what a good, decidated preamp can do to this amp!
Again thanks all!
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There's a used deHavilland ultraverve on USAM which is a steal and huge value. That's where I'd go.
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@cming0038
Thanks, you forgot the part were I said that there is also a filter for headphones 🎧 😜😀
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@cming0038: I don't believe there is a line-stage only version of the EAR 912, so the 868L would be the EAR to get. It has hookup connections you might like for your Stax-based system: a balanced input (via Tim de Paravicini's renown transformers, on XLR jacks), and two pair each of both balanced and single-ended outputs. Plus excellent sound quality via a pair of 7DJ8 tubes.
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@cming0038 @bdp24
So far I’ve only owned the MC SUT’s by EAR (absolutely fantastic SUT’s), but I’ve long been curious about their other tube electronics. Especially their preamps and HP-4 headphone amp. I bet they’re fantastic. If I were to pick another brand to try on a whim, EAR would be atop my list, then Manley :)
Interesting, I didn’t realize the T-8000 had that feature. Must be a volume control bypass intended for DAC’s with a digital control. What you’re trying to achieve here seems reasonable!
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@mulveling: David Manley was also active in the Pro Audio sector, as was Tim de Paravicini (Pink Floyd’s studio, Kav Alexander’s Water Lily Records fantastic tape recorder, on which was recorded A Meeting By The River album). I have an old friend (they’re all old ;-) who has a Manley mic pre-amp in his recording studio, and loves it. I’ve spent some time conversing with EveAnna at a coupla CESes and Stereophile shows, and found her to be a very cool, interesting person.
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I own 2 LA-4 pre-amps from Benchmark Audio and Love them. Considerably cheaper than 10K. With remote (metal) about 3K free shipping, 30 day trial period, 5 year warranty, USA upstate NY, been around for ages Rory is excellent to deal with. did I mention balanced What do you have to lose? A human always answers the phone and promptly too. Robert TN
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@cming0038. Thanks for clarifying that you have top of the range Stax equipment.
To be frank, I don't think what you are trying to do makes sense. The only thing the bypass function on the 8000 does is to remove the volume control from the circuit. So your signal will still be going through all of the 8000s amplification circuitry and all you will be doing is to precondition the signal by putting it through a preamp before you input it to the 8000.
I don't think that will radically alter the sonic character of the 8000 though that can only be known by trying it, I suppose.
Though I rarely recommend buying two of anything, you might be better investing in an alternative setup with a top quality pair of dynamic headphones. You may have done that already, but you'd description of what you want to change in the Stax's is, to me, fairly reflective of the basic differences in character between electrostatic and dynamic designs.
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I haven't heard it myself, but am interested in knowing how many would consider a BAT VK-80 to have a slight bit of warmth the OP is inquiring about.
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Also - don’t know how you feel about "Stax Mafia" / Kevin Gilmore electrostatic amp designs, but you might consider snagging a KGST (cheaper), KGGG (more expensive), or BHSE (Headamp, more expensive) when they come up on the used market. Just avoid any Chinese builds and stick to known builders.
Even the T-8000 is reportedly significantly underpowered compared to the Gilmore designs. I admittedly listen pretty loud, and have heard the Stax 727 absolutely fall apart, to mush, as I raised volume. You won’t get good dynamics and solid imaging if it’s going that way, and a more powerful amp would have a much bigger impact than adding the preamp in that case. The Mafia’s all-solid-state deigns (KGSShv, Carbon) can be a bit on the leaner and brighter side, which I definitely don’t prefer, but their tube hybrid designs really pull it together for my tastes.
In particular I find the KGST a nice pairing with L700 and 009 without breaking the bank.
- KGST - Kevin Gilmore Single Triode, using 6S4A tubes. It's the simplest amp in this lineup.
- KGGG - Kevin Gilmore Grounded Grid (EL34 driven with grounded grid)
- KGSShv - Kevin Gilmore Solid State, High Voltage version
- Carbon - Modified & improved KGSShv with Silicon Carbide FET output transistors
- BHSE - Blue Hawaii was Kevin’s first attempt to replicate Stax’s legendary T2 amplifier before he had access to its circuit diagram. Her scribbled out this design on a cocktail napkin while drinking Blue Hawaii’s on vacation lol. The "SE" indicates Headamp’s (Justin Wilson) improved and modified version.
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I suggest you take a look at Thomas Mayer's 10y Line Preamp.
https://www.vinylsavor.com/
His tube gear is hand built by him to custom order with numerous options available.
He is a very experienced world class engineer and designer. The parts and build quality are at the highest level. He is even producing his own tubes (Elrog brand). How many tube amp designer/builders are doing that?
You mentioned being in Asia and I believe he has a shop representing him in Hong Kong where you could audition his designs. It might also be possible in Singapore but maybe only Hong Kong.
You can email him to find out more. He answers promptly and deals personally with each customer. Very few (if any) others offer all that.
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I purchased a used Pass XP-32 for 11.5K. I would highly recommend it. Great sound stage. Super quiet. Very natural sounding. This was a significant step up over my Cary SLP 05 with the upgrade and NOS tubes.
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Potentially consider First Sound if you don’t need balanced connections.
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I have a solution for about 8k
Angela-Gilbert Yeung
C318 Line Stage Preamplifier
We have to make a lot of decisions every day - 1% or 2% milk? Chicken or beef? Donut or Bagel? White socks or black socks? When it comes to preamplifiers, the usual question is, "Tubes or solid state?". And I say "Why not both?". The C318 offers the opportunity to create the perfect sound by offering separate 6922 and 6SN7 tube circuits, and a solid state circuit. Each circuit has its own volume control so that you can mix and match to create the ultimate tonal balance for your speakers, your room, and your music. Standard inputs are two balanced and three RCA, along with both both RCA and balanced outputs, and a separate line output. The C318 also has a beefy separate power supply, and rear panel jacks for both SP Capacitor Pack and FCF plug and play upgrades. I should also mention that it sounds amazing.
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@cming0038 If your interest/curiosity is are leaning toward EAR, I am\very familiar with the Brand as the Companies models are owned within my local HiFi Group.
I know the Acute very well and am Very Impressed, there is a infrequent attendee who has The Head SUT and this is rated as the best SUT to be demo'd during the get togethers.
There is Power Amp' Owners with models from the past and recently one the most recent models from the Brand has been bought in place of a earlier produced model.
Additionally there is a Tim De Paravicini Designed 300b and a Imported VAC Amp.
There was a want to bring in a New Pre Amp, where money was not too much of a constraint for a option on a New Pre Amp' for the owner of the exchanged model EAR Power Amp. The monies available for the Pre Amp' was working towards £7K, which shares a similarity to your own situation.
A host of Pre Amp's were available for Home Demo's of which one was the EAR 868. Out of the Commercial Pre's being demo'd the EAR was the one that impressed the most. Note: The 868 is not a Lush or Rich Toned Pre Amp, it has clarity and detail retrieval with unnoticeable smearing affecting the micro details.
Here is a curve ball, there was also at the Pre Amp Demo's a PASS KB1 Pre Amp present, and it delivered in a manner that was not easy to overlook. It was also commanding a cost that was very very attractive, and suggested methods to upgrade were also made known and the cost that would be needed to include these.
The EAR owner has chosen the Pass KB1 as their Pre Amp and a few other Valve Power Amp owners within the Group are also using the Pass KB1. At present I am having a Balanced Design of the Pre Amp' produced to couple to my monoblock Power Amp's.
A Pass KB1 can be acquired for a very respectable outlay. If it does not deliver to your preference, it will sell on and a valuable experience will have been encountered.
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Thank you all again!
I would like to share some of my experience with RP-7 and RP-9 last week too! Turns out a preamp does improve the sound a lot, compared to only T-8000. Especially with RP-9, my SR-009 was starting to sound like a little speaker and it felt so real! Resolution upgraded signifcantly, and dynamics improved as well. The sound is more laid back, and a little thinner (might be because of increase in resolution). As for sound signature, I have yet distinguished whether it was "warm" or "cold" (the dealer who was quite familiar with tubes actually said RP-9 was more tubey than RP-7🤔). RP-7 in comparison has less resolution and extension, and a "thicker and more rounded" sound. The dealer said that with some burn-in, RP-9 would sound sweeter and more dynamic. So I might go for another audition! (I was sitting there for 7 hours lol)
The friend who accompanied me (and likes IEM like Fitear 333), said the preamp took away the "musicality" of my setup, while I was still jamming to the instruments played by both preamps, even more so with RP-9.
That makes me wonder, what feelings should I get if a machine sounds musical/warmer and sweeter? I wonder whether I am blown away by the upgrade in quality (resolution, dynamics, extension, etc), or the sound signature (sweetness, passion, warmth). What do you guys think would hint at the sound signature of a machine?
Either way, just want to share my experience and say adding a preamp did bring some changes to my setup!
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@cming0038 Nice! If you’re happy with the resultant sound, that is what matters.
Having a reference system (or systems) and comparing gear over time will develop your ability to quickly pick out a specific component’s sonic disposition (warm & sweet or dry and analytical etc).
For me, the RP-9 was not warm nor sweet compared to the ARC Ref 6 or VAC Master or VAC Renaissance III (or even the older Rogue Athena and Hera). However, I did like its bass punchiness, and overall clarity & detail. To be fair, I may never have burned it in "fully". But the VAC's were sweet from hour #1 lol. Maybe Rogue should do some initial burn-in and auditioning like VAC does (if a VAC component doesn't make the cut in audition, it goes back to the line).
Your post is making think I should experiment more along these lines -- since I have a few nice preamps, headphone amps, and headphones at my disposal :)
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+1 Backert Labs Rhythm 1.3 linestage tube preamplifier
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@mulveling hope your ARC & T2 combo will bring good result!
So I finally found a place to try VAC, though it only has Master preamp for demo...still want to try it! The Renaissance Mk V is priced at 13-14k (which is a bit out of my budget). Could you share more of your experience with VAC, espeically compared to RP-7 & RP-9?
@kennyc regarding Backert Labs, I emailed Andy a few days ago, and he told me about the 14 day refund (kinda) policy. That's one way to audition haha. And it turns out they will release Rhythm 1.4 soon. I am looking forward to what upgrades it brings
Also, what do you guys think about Accuphase? There's a shop which could import it's preamps at a rather low price (e.g. their latest flagship model at 17k). Heard it offers a sweet sound as well!
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