New to audio. Is there a good DAC that can produce layers of sound?

It's ALL in the recording! You can't make a silk purse out of a ...

Even the sound stage and imaging?

Topping D50 + P50 linear power supply. $200 + $120 = $320. Why spend way more? 

Yes, even the soundstage and imaging! These are ALL subject to the whims of the recording/mixdown engineer!

"It's ALL in the recording! You can't make a silk purse out of a ... "

This is off course a big part of the picture but still not all of it. Most of todays dac`s (and amps) sounds too "clean" or dry. This gives an impressive stereo-focus and a focus on "details" (= transient-starts) that might impress near-field listeners while the reverberation, the room-echoes and instrument-sound that makes 3D/stereo suffers. 

So you`re asking a good question  talkskiwon. And the smartest thing you can do is to ask experienced audiophiles. But be careful with who you listen too, it is too easy to be an expert on the internet.

What you are searching for is a dac who not only makes sound but plays music, with full bodied rythm and 3D, room or air intact.  One that will make you play the whole record instead of just listen to one song. 


A good start here is to buy the professional dac Behringer DEQ2496. Beside beeing a surpricingly good dac it can do a lot of stuff, like adjustable dynamic expansion, digital equalizer & room correction iuf you need so.
It has only balanced xlr audio out, so if you do not have a free xlr in, buy this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/XLR-Female-XLR-Male-to-RCA-Female-Socket-Adapter-Gold-connector/163722639597?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=463226403992&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

A rather cheap dac this but good sounding. And you can then use it as a referance if you`re curious at other hifi-dacs later on, to compare. 

Thanks everyone. I see where you guys are coming from and I do respect all opinions. The sound I want? I do not even know what I am looking for. So far, what I know is that Sonos Amp suck really bad, and SVS ultra bookshelf as a speaker is great but kinda strong in high pitch, so I am now looking for a smooth sounding speaker. My next trial is going to be Gold 100 5G from Monitor Audio. DAC-wise I have absolute zero clue, so your opinions really help.

I will definitely take a hard look on the Behringer DEQ2496 for sure. Thanks unfairlane.

You should check out the Audio Mirror Tubadour III that was just listed here last night. A VERY worthy DAC to consider, especially with the upgrades! No affiliation with the seller, btw... just a happy owner of one of these TIIIs.

From personal experience: Behringer is CRAP. I went through 4 of them. Emerald Physics used to sell them with their speakers and had similar issues to mine

An excellent option is the Audio Alchemy DDP 1 + PS 5

It’s a combination preamp and dac, but doesn’t come on song without the matching PS 5, which is an outboard power supply. They don't come up for sale often, but well worth the wait. Virtually impossible to get the PS 5 separate, so not a good idea to buy the DDP-1 unless it comes with the PS 5

hth

I love my MHDT Orchid DAC, but more for it's natural presentation of music than soundstaging.  I have it set up in a small room with the speakers nearfield, so I'm not getting the best soundstage I could.  

If you don't like bright speakers, switching to Monitor Audio speakers might not be the best choice, that's one of the things they are known for.  I haven't heard the ones you're looking at, so maybe they are less bright than in the past.  If you want a set of small speakers with nice soundstage and luscious mids and detailed but not bright highs, take a look at Harbeth P3ESR or a similar BBC monitor type speaker.

"  From personal experience: Behringer is CRAP. I went through 4 of them "

The first model suicided from overheating, recent model is improved and has upgraded analog in-/outputs as well but they can still not be totally trusted. 
My second now and I`ve got a four year guarantee for a few bucks extra. Playing from youtube right now with a 3db dynamic expansion added. 

The Audio Achemy predac is good enough but even a used one cost ten times the price of a DEQ2496. 

You probably want an R2R tube-based DAC.  MHDT and Audio Mirror are two distinct possibilities; Border Patrol would be another.  Search the forum for various threads on these DACs--you'll find other relevant ones named there also.

Wow. Thank you all. This thread really helps me to find some awesome DACs. I can do my own research on google, but the names I see here are not easy to find. Also, I know there are youtubers promoting certain products and they have special interests shared with companies, but do you guys know about EISA award? One of the integrated amp has won this award, the Hegel Rost, and it seem pretty close to what I am hoping to hear from my music setups. That is "according to youtubers reviews".

Not long ago, I purchased a Benchmark DAC 1 PRE. I was flabbergasted at how it sounds. They don't sell cheap, but there's a reason for that, they're that good. I got mine for $500, in perfect shape, and as far as I'm concerned, it's all the DAC I'll ever need, also the headphone amp is just killer good.

Best of luck,
Dan

Wow...Just took a look at the DAC1 and its used price...it seems like absolute steal...especially for a beginner like myself. Thanks a lot. My question is, are they going to hook up well with more updated amps and streamers? due to somewhat outdated drivers, inputs, and outputs, given it was release almost 10yrs ago. 

Chord qutest is the one to get at your price point.  Look at "the music room" website.  They have some good deals.  I bought a hugo 2 used from them and they were great to deal with.  They're an authorized chord dealer also.

You need a nos r2r tube dac like someone had already stated. It’ll give you a nice, airy, clear presentation. I’ve got a real old grant fidelity tube dac 11 and it still holds up. I’ve got my eyes on an audio mirror next. 

R2Rs do not measure well at all. Do what Roberjerman says and get Topping D50. Completely transparent. It will give you EXACTLY what's on the recording

What’s your budget for speakers and what’s the size of your listening room?

You really need vinyl for depth, but the Ayre Codex is the best DAC near your price

You might consider the totally reengineered Sonos Connect made by magna hifi, www.magnahifi.com. If you are like me and appreciate the ease of use of Sonos, but are not impressed with the quality of the sound, you might appreciate the substantive changes that Magna Hifi makes to the Connect, making the sound greatly improved IMO. 

How about a streamer with a nice DAC??
Audiolab 6000N

Hi-res, multi-room and DLNA support allowing wireless streaming from networked songs on NAS drives and PCs in multiple rooms of a house, the dedicated app also offers direct access to the likes of Spotify, Tidal, Deezer, Amazon Music, HD Tracks and Sirius XM.

It borrows from its siblings, utilising the ESS Sabre32 DAC as seen in the 6000A, and the isolated power supply found in the 6000CDT.

There is also a smattering of both digital and analogue connections.

mmporsche My budget for speaker is less than $2300 My new apartment living room is pretty tiny about...14ft by 13ft ish

If you are not using something soft further downstream from a Benchmark DAC1 then you may find it a little fatiguing. I have owned DAC1, DAC2, and DAC3. I would suggest a used DAC2. If you do not need a volume control in your DAC then Benchmark has a brand new DAC3 B for $1700.

I prefer a separate preamp or integrated vs a DAC with volume control (I have owned both types).

For a low cost you can try out the Peachtree Nova 150, 300, or 500 integrateds (includes a DAC) in the $1300 - $4000 price range. I use the Nova 150 in my office and it is rather good for the $1100 used I got it for. Just add speakers and a streamer like a Sonore microRendu (if you stream from a computer) and you have a Low Mass and Low Cost solution.

Lumin t2. 

I can't say enough thanks to everyone who put their comments in this thread. The Internet is full of commercial, pouring in only the commissioned products, so it is hard to find real gems. Maybe the ones I often come across are good enough, but what I wanted was a greater spectrum of choices and I really appreciate you guys for bringing me more options. Opens my eyes to see further. Inspires me as a beginner audiophile. 

A little heard of Dac in North America is Beresford.

I first had the Bushmaster II, which was a step up in EQ for me in 2013.
That now is my work Dac.

Now have the Beresford SEG. Combine that with a Dorado power supply, and it ends up being a pretty good Dac for reasonable money.

Found at homehifi.co.uk

 Had mods done to push it even further.

Check out the Mytek Brooklyn Dac+. If you want one with a streamer, check out Bluesound Node 2i.

The Mytek is a higher quality sound and in your budget, but the Bluesound isn’t far behind and is a fraction of the price.

The recording has a lot to do with it, also the design of the dac 
has also a lot to do with it .i have owned every type out there pretty much in design ,the often over looked digital cable 
absolutely makes a difference the Excellent Final Audio cable 
sold by Lampizator North America make great naturally sounding cables . Usb cable retail around $750 not cheap but the best under $1500 out there I have found, also in the Lampizator dacs 
have a vacuim tubes in the circuit makes a Big difference in 
soundstsge depth and imaging,as well as you can tune your system to be more detailed on top ,more nuetral or full, as well  as changing different rectifier tubes that convert the AC to DC that too can add dynamics. Their world class dacs go past $25k in the Pacific but their New Amber 3 Dac  recently received a great 
5 star review in enjoy the music .com ,and thst was with stock NOS  tubes . Myself put all early 1950s vintage in which are the best and ladt a long time if bought by expert tube sellers like Andy at Vintage tube services, or Brent Jesse recordings . Myself mod - upgrade Everything I buy and have found ways to make the 
Amber3 dac  better still, top fuse,very good powercord such as 
the excellent Triode Audio Labs digital American power cord for $500 a steal I just bought another HC for my amp. This dac is 
so musical I sold my $6k p.s Audio dac ,which is excellent  which may be a bit more extended but does not have the natural realism 
of the Lampizator it is a Steal fir under $3k , the Final touch usb cable replaced the Wireworld platinum I bought a year ago.
and AQ Diamond .

Not true about monitor audio ,I have the studios with the amt tweeter ,not bright at all very nuetral and Very accurate your amp,sourse,and cables will dictate 
the sonic balance.

I've owned the SVS Ultra Bookshelf speakers for five years now. I've powered them with a class A Threshold amp, a Primaluna tube amp and a baby Parasound Zamp3...all to great affect. I stream with an Aurender N100h and my first dac was a delta/sigma Arcam iRdac, a modest but highly rated dac. I was pretty happy with the system but always looking to improve so I bought a Schiit Gungnir multibit (Darko also loves this) with the Gen5 usb. To make a long story short...I didn't hear a big difference, it didn't transform a really good sounding system to an incredibly awesome system.

I think you need to take a hard look at the system as a whole instead of just one component. I don't think a particular type (D/S or multibit) or a brand or tube output this or that can change what might be an unbalanced system. Perhaps nailing down the speakers and amp first and then finding a dac you would be happy with...? 

The SVS speakers are a lot of fun and perhaps hard to beat for the 1 kilobuck price, but I'm moving up the chain too. Enjoy your journey!!!

Thanks treynolds115

I did thought about keeping the SVS ultra and just swap the streamer+amp, but did find something that I can really enjoy and decided to move on. I can see why people enjoy that speaker. I understand the mix and match of components can result unintended sound, so maybe I am saving some money and get a do-able integrated amp like Hegel Rost that is on sale at the moment. Just hook up a streamer and that will probably going to justify my first audio setup. Anyhow. Thanks for the input. Might going to take years to finally have my end game. I will just enjoy as you say :)

I'm looking to go with an integrated now too, just for the simplicity...less wires and all. I've always been intrigued by Hegel and noticed the Rost on sale too...lol. I've also been looking at Simaudio, their ACE has a dac and streamer built in. So many great options out there now for reasonable $$. 

Louis at Omega speakers is currently building me a custom set of CAMs which opens up my options to low powered components due to their high sensitivity/efficiency.  Oh what fun it is... :)

If you've decided to go for an integrated, consider the Peachtree Nova 300.  You can get a new one for $2k or a used one for under your budget.  The DAC is quite good.  I have one in my office system and am very happy with it.  It will sing with the right speakers, but is not a good match with "warm" speakers, IMO.  I'm currently using it with Focal Electra 1008 BE speakers.

I would like to suggest to see around here;

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/master-index-of-measurement-comparison-ch...

better SINAD means better DAC in most cases.

My opinion is the Matrix X-Sabre pro (non MQA) is a great DAC and preamplifier at the top of the list. 1200$ a used one.

Better than Chord Qutest, I had both. With a good (low THD %) power amplifier you will hear layers and depth of the soundstage. I use Purifi 1ET400A eval board (0.0002% THD+N) and this couple is incredible. Matrix X-Sabre replaces the preamplifier so you can connect it to a power amplifier directly.

But you can choose under $1000, for example new Sabaj D5 DAC around 450$, measurements in the top class for that little price (preamplifier and headphone amps are built in)
 and Topping DACs are good as well, but under Sabaj D5, just check the measurement list I linked.

For good music layering, soundstage depth, DAC and power amplifier must be in the same league. 

I started with the NAD M12 preamp. The included DAC was waaaaay too bright and forward in my system. I tried a Mytek Liberty DAC and while better it was still a bit too bright. I recently purchased the Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE tube DAC and I’m quite satisfied.

BTW, I replaced the NAD M12 with a Herron VSTP tube pre amp. Imaging, sound stage, detail, musicality, pretty much everything is much, much improved.

treynolds115, big_greg, istvan1976, oldschool1948
Wow. All of those. It surprises me that I can still find one fantastic gear after another. All week. Thanks for the notice. In terms of the brightness of M12, try looking at this guys review. It help me to cross out forward sounding dacs.

https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/benchmark-dac-3l-vs-mytek-brooklyn-dac-vs-matrix-audio-element-x-vs-matrix-audio-x-sabre-pro/

Cambridge may offer a dac/streamer. hifi at low prices even new.


used jolida dac for $300 can be had. very musical.

L.K.S Audio LKS MH-DA004 is an option.

Know a couple of guys who have ended up with this Dac.

2nd the Jolida tube DAC. Love mine. There was a shootout a few years ago with some pricier dacs and the Jolida won. Im sure you could find with some googling. 

Don’t know if anyone here has mentioned any of the variety of Denafrips r2r dacs, but I’m considering the Ares II. Many seem to share that it hits way above its class, provides both an nos and oversampling mode, and manages better detail and trueness than other r2r’s. Another one (off the beaten path) would be a Musical Paradise tube dac. Also considered way better than price would suggest. 

+1 MHDT Orchid.  Tubed DAC that generally do a better job with layering and soundstage, and you can fine tune it to your tastes with a simple tube swap. You can read member Teajay’s review on 6moons — he bought the review sample, which says a lot.  

Just curious, which speakers did you get?

Recordings are a big part of this.  Good full range neutral speakers are also a must.

Soix

I am getting either a 

1. Monitor Audio Gold 100 5G or
2. Dali Rubicon 2 or
3. Elac Vela

Now I don't have any. Returned my first speaker SVS Ultra last week.
It was great, but little harsh on my ears sometimes.

The best DAC in this case would be the proper setup of your speakers in the room.
Believe me. I was asking the same question years ago.

Hi @talkskiwon - first off, welcome to the wonderful world of hifi! It's a fun, if maddening/eccentric/crazy, hobby. :)

I think I understand what you mean by "layered" - it's one of the special qualities of high-end reproduction that makes it so alluring. Many audiophiles call this "dimensional." Once you hear it, everything else sounds flat, 2D and dry by comparison. So let's help you get a good dose of that on a budget.

My general advice here starting out is to pick out speaker/amp combo that you like. It does not have to be expensive, it just depends on what qualities matter to you most and what compromises you're happy living with. On speakers, my sense is a good 2-way monitor with a minimal crossover and high-quality traditional drivers (paper/silk/etc.) are a good place to start. It looks like you're on that track! Minimalist crossovers, when done well with good drivers, tend to image very well and give you more of the layering you're looking for.

A brand that fits that bill and I can strongly recommend is Silverline Audio - e.g. I have a review of their Minuet Grand here, and it is an amazing speaker if within your budget ($2k):
https://taww.co/post/170777975517/review-silverline-minuet-grand-loudspeakers

Another great speaker for the money is the Dynaudio Special Forty. It's got big bass, a little big/bloated for my tastes, but a very full and fun sound. It might just a little beyond your budget, but the less expensive Dynaudios like the Emit series might also be worth a listen if you can find a shop.

I have not heard the Elac, Monitor Audio or Dali you mention but have heard good things. I've found Monitor Audio to be a bit dry in the past, and might need careful amp pairing to avoid getting bright. I was quite impressed with the Elac Uni-Fi a friend got when paired with my Bryston B60 integrated, but I think there are more layered-sounding speakers out there and they need careful amp matching.

There are many great 2-way monitors in the $2k price range so definitely keep listening to as you can and get a feel for what you like. They will vary in tonal balance, bass extension, dynamics, etc. and no one formula is perfect for everyone. At a given price point a designer has certain ingredients available and the recipe they have chosen will cater to different tastes. If you can provide more of what you're looking for (musical tastes, room size, what you thought about a particular speaker) that will help people give more tips. It's clear you don't like bright sound, though I don't know if the SVS speaker was to fault - it could have been the Sonos amp. The amp choice is going to be super important.

Now, on your original question of DAC. You've gotten a bunch of advice here, and TBH, I don't think random recommendations of "get this" or "get that" are particularly helpful. Best we an do is tell you what we've heard and what we thought of them relative to other things, and you can take with a grain of salt. I will say this though. I have a PS Audio DirectStream DAC, it's fairly expensive and gives a very natural, dimensional sound. Before that I used a $1k Cambridge StreamMagic. No it was not as layered, but it sounded quite good! Dynamic, punchy, fun and with decent depth. When the PS Audio was out of commission, I used an Ayre Codex (~$1k used, I'm actually selling one) and a $179 Topping NX4 from Amazon. Honestly, they all sounded pretty good in my system, the Topping being the least "layered" as you'd expect, but still capable of a nice soundstage. I don't think there are very many bad-sounding DACs these days; when you start getting really picky, the expensive ones will do some really nice things the cheap ones can't, and there's no way any of them will replace my PS Audio. But I think if you're just getting started with your system, it wouldn't be the worst idea to start with something simple under $1k like something from Cambridge (or even Topping if you just want to get the system up and running), figure out the rest of the system and then see what you want from the DAC. In general DACs have less variable "flavor" to them - bright, dark, warm, dynamic, etc. - than amps and speakers, they are more about fine tuning and refinement. If you do want to spend a bit more, Chord DACs are always musical and nice, though perhaps not the best value - I don't find them to be quite as amazing as they're chalked up to being.

Another electronics brand to consider if you like a warm, dimensional sound is Rega. Not the best made stuff, not particularly transparent, but very listenable with a pleasing warmth. My first amp was the Brio integrated some 25 years ago (with Tannoy monitors and a Radio Shack CD3400) and it gave me a nice initial taste of hi-fi.

Anyway, hope this is somewhat helpful. Feel free to check out my blog (taww.co) and FB page (fb.com/audiophileww) and lean on the people there for ideas. Good luck!

Cheers,
TAWW