@atdavid Agreed on the ethernet cable but clearly routers and switches aren't always galvanically isolated. Ethernet is always galvanically isolated. The connection is through a transformer. |
Let me say first that I'm no expert at all in things digital. But what I know as an indisputable fact is that there is RF noise associated with the interaction between toroidal transformers, amplifiers, other gear and routers/switches/cables. This is easy to observe when I get LOUD obnoxious "motorboating" pulsing depending on placement of my router near my rack. I get very audible noise carried on the physical ethernet cable as well if I'm not careful with placement relative to the rest of my gear. I think none of this has to do with the 1's and 0's being transmitted as part part of the signal and has EVERYTHING to do with shielding and RF/EM interference. Noise can get carried on the physical line (antenna essentially). The materials that are used to shield the cable so it's not acting as a noise conduit is incredibly important. I'm not convinced the "quality" of the bits transferred has anything to do with what my ears are capable of hearing. I think separating the switch from the renderer in the router can reduce RF noise. I used a $20 Netgear switch and observed this myself. I will never pay $2000 for a network switch though! |
@jason_k2017
This isn't about degrading a digital signal, it's about electrical noise riding on the line. What do you think shields ethernet cable? It's wrapped in foil or braided wires - yes, conductors of electricity. So if electrical noise does not degrade the digital signal, why do I need this special switch? |
@jason
how a switch working at level 2 or 3 can affect the encoded audio
Just because the sound is better after inserting a new switch does not mean the switch affected the encoded audio. Couldn't improvements be due solely to a reduction of RF/EM noise in the chain? All I want is a yes or no. |
Why, if the digital signal is not being degraded and is therefore reaching its destination intact (which is all that matters), do I need a 'special' switch?
@jason
I don't think a special switch is needed unless the hardware is adding noise to the chain via RF/EM interference. One way to address this noise, if being introduced via the switch hardware, "could" be using a different switch that doesn't introduce this noise on the line. I personally do not subscribe to any theory about digital signal getting degraded but I know as a fact that electrical gear can be sources of noise in an audio system. Do you deny this???? I strongly disagree with your assertion that a digital signal reaching its destination intact is all that matters. Introducing new electrical noise along the path also matters! Why are you choosing to ignore this? It's because you're cherry picking your argument. Very few disagree with your assertion on the bits arriving intact! Yes - we get that.
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I don't understand why people think it's technically impossible for a switch to introduce noise in the component chain. Switches are powered by electricity and contain fans, chips, printed circuit boards and power supplies. This isn't an argument about bits are bit and 0's and 1's or buffering or any of the well understood ethernet data transfer protocols - its about noise. Why is this so difficult? |
@jason - very cute, answering my question with a question. Since you choose not to answer my question I will answer for you. Of course a switch that doesn't introduce RF/EM noise to a line can sound better than one that does. You know this as well as I do. Every component in your chain that runs on electricity has the potential to add noise - it doesn't matter if the gear is transmitting analog or digital signals.
Do you deny this? And please, don't respond with another question. A yes or no is requested. |
@jnorris2005 Despite my attempts to educate people that if RF/EM noise introduction at the switch will really affect the audio signal,
I don't for a second think that RF/EM affects the audio signal! In fact I went to great lengths to say I don't believe it does at all. What I'm saying is that the electrical powered gear - routers, amps, switches, etc can all introduce RF/EM noise into your chain whether it's riding the physical line (not the 1's and 0's) or just being in close proximity to other equipment. Just admit it, power supplies etc associated with switches and routers can introduce RF/EM noise to your set up. |
@jason
This is so very frustrating.
I couldn't agree more. Why won't you answer the question about routers and switches possibly introducing EM/RF noise OUTSIDE of the signal path just like any other piece of electrical powered gear??? The quality of the signal is not the end-all in audio. I'm still patiently waiting. |
@jason_k2017 You must try to understand that almost everything can introduce EM/RF noise. Every single device from the audio server, through every device my audio passes through on the internet and then my exchange to my router to my DAC can. Dozens and possibly hundreds of devices. But none of those sites think it necessary to use a magic cable or a magic switch. You really, really ought to attend a course on digital audio, or research it yourself
You must be kidding me, right??? No one believes it’s necessary to use cables or other devices to negate the negative effects of EM/RF noise that you finally concede can contribute to an audio chain via every source with an electricity source?? Seriously? Nordost, AQ, Isotek, PS Audio, Furman, Synergistic etc all have entire product lines to deal with EXACTLY this issue. No one calls it "magic" like you do - it’s all just reasonable isolation, shielding, grounding, and energy dissipation techniques that measurably work. Why should I take a course on digital? This noise has NOTHING to do with the digital signal. Go do your own research. |
My IQ is 165 and I demand that everyone consider my viewpoints to therefore be the most credible on this forum! At least until a 166 guy comes along. |
@david_uk_22
I have an open mind on the subject, but I am wondering why commercial and professional applications such as television and radio networks don’t need the same level of equipment as is being promoted for home cinema/music room applications. That's like asking why drive a Ferrari when a Kia serves the same basic purpose of delivering you from point A to point B. It's about eeking out extra performance...and not just making a successful transmission of data. I feel that any piece of gear powered by electricity, including digital gear, can benefit from reducing the effects of RF/EM noise. |
@david_uk_22
"It" meaning all of your audio gear, and NOT the digital signal! All of your gear is susceptible to to the RF/EM noise created by digital equipment and their power supplies, etc. Sorry for the ambiguous "it". Is this more clear now? |
@david_uk_22
But I don't think that your Ferrari/Kia comparison works. If the sole purpose is to get from a to b and the Kia will do that, then the Ferrari is not needed
Of course the Kia/Ferrari analogy works. If you care about audio you don’t just want to hear music come out (i.e. getting you from point A to B), whether it’s from phono or 192 stream, you want it to present with the least amount of noise layered on top of it. My point is that regardless if whether the digital signal is perfect, it is susceptible to RF/EM noise riding along or being created by power supplies and any gear (including switches) that pass electric current. If another switch can keep this noise out then you can potentially recognize better sound. This isnt about 1s and 0s getting through or not. |
@david_uk_22
So If all of my gear is susceptible to RF/EM noise then why is, and this is my only and original question , the gear in a professional network not susceptible to the same type of noise?
Because the BBC or any other professional network is only concerned with broadcasting an accurate digital signal. They could care less what the effects of RF/EM noise are having in their own studio - which would be the only positive result that using quieter electrical gear would have at their point of broadcast. Anything they do to minimize this type of noise in their own space would have ZERO impact to end user. It's up to the end user to decide whether he/she wants to reduce the negative affects of ALL potential sources of electrical-based noise, including routers, switches, transformers, and power supplies. Again, I agree that their digital signal that arrives in your home is perfect - yet your overall listening experience could be improved with quieter gear - none of which alters that perfect digital signal. Make sense now? |
@david_uk_22 Sorry but I still don't follow how the digital signal can be susceptible to your
"RF/EM noise"
Ok David you have to stop this. Again I am NOT saying that the digital signal is susceptible to noise. I have gone to great lengths to say quite the contrary. This is NOT about the signal so please stop. What I am saying is that noise can get introduced to your system equipment (not the friggin signal!) via electrical gear including routers and switches etc just like power supplies in any other piece of gear can create RF/EM noise that get transmitted through the air or hitches along the foil/shielding on an ethernet cable (or any other cable) causing an affect on other equipment - and consequently sound quality. Please, this must make some sense to you. |
@david_uk_22
I am talking post digitizing and " the negative affects of ALL potential sources of electrical-based noise, including routers, switches, transformers, and power supplies " before it gets to my house.
In my view (I know others disagree) there is nothing that can be going on in that BBC studio as a result of electrical-based noise that's going to pose a negative impact on the digital signal coming into your house. The digital signal is just fine leaving BBC and just fine when it arrives to your home and even your DAC. I'm simply saying whether it's a nearby TV, florescent light, network switch, router, or amplifier...everything near your audio system that is powered by electricity has the potential to cause noise. Reducing these effects can be beneficial. Again, I am not in the camp that any of this is related to the digital signal. I had to move my router 10 feet away from my rack because initially it's close proximity to the rest of my gear was causing very loud "motorboating". In this case the digital signal was of course not degraded bu there was incredible noise coming through my speakers due to the RF/EM noise. This really shouldn't be confusing. |
@david_uk_22
Ah I think I get it now.
You are saying that adding an extra piece of equipment, a switch or anything , is adding further potential to add noise to your audio system. Nothing to do with the digital audio it is switching.
Yes, that is the perspective I'm engaging on here. Therefore, as it applies to network switches I'm mainly interested in the noise reduction they are applying to the power supplies for example as a potential source of noise and unrelated to the digital signal. I see many of the models that the OP provided at the beginning of thread did include measures to reduce EM/RF noise but for now I don't think those incremental gains justify the costs - at least not in my realm of budgets and a value proposition. |
Does anyone actually have and use an EtherREGEN yet or all they all on order still? I'm just very curious to read some reviews of actual users. |
@discopants I'm surprised that your system is only Spotify premium at 320kbps. Don't you feel you're leaving a ton of meat on the bone by not upgrading to a hi-res service? Compared to the money you've put into the switch, gear, power conditioners etc....surely you will hear the biggest sonic sea change moving up to at least CD-quality streaming. |
So the sonic benefits can only be recognized in areas that no one yet knows how to measure? Then what's the basis behind the design of such a product? I now have zero desire to even try this out. There are many other areas of sound reproduction I'd rather direct my energy and resources towards. Just one guy's opinion. |
So this is where the conversation apparently ends - it's impossible to measure the benefits, so either you believe benefits exist and criticize someone who measures no change as a non-careful listener or you believe they make no difference due to lack of measurement proof. How unsatisfying. I'm happy for anyone who enjoys the product and perceives a benefit but this just isn't a product for me to look into further, at least not at this time. |
