Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System vs SGC Optical Isolation System

@jerryg123 

Well, I doubt many would wanna try Waversa products or deal with Kevalin Audio. 

“Kevalin Audio website has a 30 (thirty) day home trial period, with the option to return for refund less a 20% restocking fee.”

I know, I am out! 

@lalitk thanks for the info on the Muon Pro! Very interesting. I’ll add that to my list!

@lalitk 

The MUON filter system  has received really excellent reviews and owner feedback. I wonder how the “Pro” version is presumably better in a home audio system environment. IOW what’s to be gained in a practical day to day sense?

Charles

Hello @lalitk and all,  As you know I also have the M12 Gold switch, and agree it is amazing, especially with the JCAT power supply.  I also have the Muon Filter System x 2. (Two systems)  I had them prior to the M12, and simply kept them inline after my switch which serves both of my systems.  Tonight, I decide to evaluate my Makua with onboard Tambaqui system to see if the Muon still makes a difference with the M12.  My wife and I Listened to Liberty about 6 times, with and without the Muon.

The answer was clear to us; the Muon still makes a noticeable improvement, even with the M12 Gold.  And we each independently heard this.  With the Muon, sound was richer, smoother, bigger, more air and space and just plain easier feeling. She described it as warmer feeling.

Now I too am anxious to hear the pro.  Some lucky person will be acquiring my Muon!  BTW, I do not feel the ER is still needed.

good thread guys.

I'm an Etherregen user and I feed it with optical from a Cisco 2960. Adding in the optical was very noticeable.

I have a cheap Chinese 10mhz clock on the ER. That does make an audible difference. 

I too am drawn to the simplicity of passive network acoustic filters. I might be up for trying the pro this year.

I have very good power supplies (Ferrum Hypsos on the ER and a long dog audio LPS on the clock.

Adding fiber to my Ethernet connection produced the biggest impact of any tweek I’ve done to my system. Combine that with a linear power supply, and a wireworld starlight platinum Ethernet cable and it’s even gone to the next level. Btw, I’m using a node with a pd creative power supply upgrade. This has all been so inexpensive to do it’s been fun! Best tweek I’ve ever done. 

I have always wondered about so many filters, switches in the streaming setup.  Diminishing returns?  With that being said I  have DX Engineering filters and an Add Powr symphony I O.  I think each item does different things.  The results are space around the voices and instrument, very good detail.  Excellent soundstage.  Adding finishing touches to a streaming setup really takes the music to OK I'm satisfied now phase!!

@charles1dad

Sorry for late reply. As per Rich at Network Acoustics, Muon Pro is designed for the professional ’studio’ market and streamers that require Gigabit Ethernet. The Muon Pro works at 1Gb/s so no issues with devices that demand Gigabit Ethernet connectivity. Back to your query, if your streamer doesn’t require Gigabit Ethernet, you’re unlikely to hear any differences between Muon Pro and standard version. Speaking from my experience, I would go for Pro version thus allowing future compatibility with any devices that may require Gigabit Ethernet.

Also when you are shopping LAN Cable, please ensure they support 1Gbit/100Mbit/10Mbit connection speed (minimum CAT 6A specification).

@lalitk 

Thank you very much for the additional information.

Charles

The Waversa Roon Core looks interesting as well.  But I use a usb attached Raid Hard Drive for my music storage vs network attached so this would not be compatible?  I would like to consider upgrading my Roon Core.  But I  think I need only a core, not a Core and Streamer and I want to keep Roon.

More thoughts in regard to complexity of streaming systems. Streaming is likely the most inherently complex source we have, even vinyl pales somewhat in comparison. We necessarily have to deal with networks, this means ISP, modems, routers, cabling, perhaps switches. Then we need means to deliver music, this requires music player software and server to utilize that software. Next is means of delivering this information to dac which is the rendering function. Finally we have dac to deliver these bits to our system.

So we have this inherent complexity to which we can add all manner of optimizations to each of these functions. Cabling, filtering, lps, power cords, power conditioning, ethernet vs optical, choice of OS, motherboards, music player software, RAM, NAS, local drives, etc. ad nauseam. I could go on and on, suffice to say one can really go into weeds, check out whatsbestforum, audiophilestyle forums to get an idea of how far some have gone. My own experience has been that optimization of every link in chain can pay off in improved sound quality. The key is discovering how to implement these optimizations, some of my changes have been retrograde, most have been incrementally positive. As for the incrementally positive, one must always ask themselves could I do better? In some cases I have improved things by further optimizing what I already thought fully optimized.

This optimization of the already optimized is where I find myself at this point in my streaming experiments. In exploration of more network optimizations, I changed out my ISP plan from 300mbps to 500, real world performance went from 330mbps download, 11.5 upload to 548 dowload, 21.5 upload. As part of this upgrade modem was necessarily changed from Netgear CM500 to Technicolor 1GB capable modem. Both run off same 12V LPS into BPT 3.5 Signature modified power conditioner, both utilize Broadcom chipset vs inferior Intel Puma, Technicolor runs DOCSIS 3.1 vs 3.0.  Changing service and modem has resulted in further lowering of noise floor, something I would not have believed possible to further improve prior. While incremental, this has been meaningful improvement, well worth the extra $20 per month charge vs prior service.

So in regard to streaming complexity, optimization and further optimization of each and every function in streaming system, its been proven once again how every single little thing can affect the entire system. For those willing to go down path of extracting max potential from their streaming source I recommend paying great attention to ISP quality, modem and routers. Research latency/jitter and noise propagation of these devices, not all created equal. Use lps, power conditioning with these devices as well. Further possible improvements may be possible with higher quality lps and power cords to modem, already have done this with router.

For those skeptical about modem and router optimization, I can only suggest one experiment here, assuming one's system has necessary resolving/transparency, improvements should be easily heard. Based on idea all links in chain important, first links need to be optimized in order to hear optimizations further down chain. Perhaps some of these filters we use would become unnecessary with more fundamental optimizations?

@sns 

I appreciate your insightful perspective. Certainly food for thought.

Charles

@sns well said. 

@sns

Thanks for your post. This is ‘network optimization ONE-oh-ONE’ for anyone looking to extract most out of their digital streaming.

@sns - nice post and my recent efforts lead me to agree wholeheartedly.

I have a bunch of stuff here, like the eno system, Gigafoilv4, fiber and converters, switches, LPSs, and more.  Starting over and moving things around in configurations that don't necessarily make logical sense, was ear-opening.  I was amazed at being able to hear differences in almost every configuration based on three consistent music selections and quick A/B comparisons.  I ended up with a sound that works well for my ears, and got there with less stuff in the chain.   Most surprisingly was the improvement I heard from having the end of the line stuff (switch and eno) positioned very close to the streamer/server input rather than a couple of shelves away.  My take-away is ya just never know, so try everything and listen for the sound you want to hear. 

@sns 

You comments about ISP made me curious as my provider is Xfinity. They offer a modem/router tri-band 1 GB unit called XFi Advanced Gateway manufactured by Technicolor. I assume that this may be similar to your unit. 
Charles

Charles, my Technicolor model # is E31T2ul. My ISP is Spectrum, have up to 1gbps service available. Anyone can check on their modem quality via various modem rating services on web,

Getting modem and router close to system was impressive upgrade for me, makes much better cabling affordable and allows lps to be connected to power conditioning on dedicated AC. I also tried powering modem and router with lps to lithium ion battery pack, nice way to go if can't power with system power conditioner. Also, experimented with better power cords to these conditioners, smaller incremental improvements here, lps is the important thing.

While modem and router quality hasn't been a concern for audiophile streamers up to recent times, it has long been of concern to enterprise scale users, some of these users such as precision engineering and measurement devices rely on maximally jitter and noise free networks.

Installed my Netgear XR1000 today, much versatility with this router. Can monitor ping time, jitter, While doubtful I can change Spectrum server feeding my network still interesting to monitor this, may be able to play with various settings to improve, initially I'm getting A+ and A ratings for ping, this great for lowest jitter,  only B for speed, likely need 1gbps for A+ rating. Quality of service (QOS) has great configuratively, vast majority of band width being allocated to streamer and/or NAS, can leave relatively little for general service computers and other devices since upgrading service to 500mbps. With 1gb I could allocate even larger percentage and still maintain decent speed with the other devices. I'm also turning off wifi either permanently or minimally when running audio system streaming. I can either hard wire every wifi device in house off second router or use wifi capabilities of the second router. Issue here is not sure second router can be run in wifi mode when connected to primary router with wifi turned off, second router may not see wireless devices on network in this mode. I should get to bottom of this in next day or two. Running router with wifi turned off somewhat replicates a switch but with IP addressing abilitiy. One thing missing is the nice clocks the best audiophile switches have, self generated noise should be greatly diminished via lps power and wifi turned off. A switch is superfluous with my JCAT net card  with it's two ethernet ports in any case, this card provides the high quality clocking a switch would provide.

Just read through this whole thread again. Such a vault of great information!

I’m still gathering information on what route (no pun intended) I’m going to take on optimizing my network before my streamer.

I’m planning to upgrade my streamer soon...currently using an Ifi Zen Stream and likely going to invest in the new Pulse line from Innuos soon.

But first, I want to focus on the cabling to the streamer before doing that.

My options: Go cheap and get some fiber converters and some of those low priced ethernet filters from amazon...or do a step up from that with a Sonore Optical Module or...skip all that and get a N.A. Eno or something similar.

Also my initial upstream gear is basic modern and router from Spectrum on wall warts...so there is work to do there too.

I do have one question though that I can’t figure out the answer to. I’m not very well educated in ethernet networking and switches so ...my question is

Why are some of you utilizing a switch downstream right before the streamer?

For instance:

Say someone has a fiber converter at their router and then has 10 meters of optical cable going up to another fiber converter near the audio system. At that point they could run an ether cable out of the converter ...potentially employ some kind of ethernet filtering device and on into the streamer.

What purpose would a switch right there do? You go ethernet out of the converter into the switch and run the ethernet filter out from one of the ports on the switch into the streamer?

Thanks in advance

JS

JS are you saying:

Ethernet > FMC > optical (10 meters) > FMC > Ethernet > Switch (?) > streamer

Here’s what I have:

Switch > Ethernet > FMC > optical > FMC > Ethernet (0.5”) > streamer (Roon end point)

One of the ports from the switch is then:

Switch [same switch as above] > Ethernet > Roon Nucleus server

Switch is needed in my case for server and streamer, but I’ve also heard on other threads that audiophile switches clean up the signal even more before the FMCs. I’m having the FMCs [essentially last FMC with LPS] clean up the signal after my generic switch and right before my streamer. I haven’t heard of adding a switch after FMC utilization, but perhaps people are? I’ll let more experienced people chime in if such is the case.

@toro3

yes that’s what I’m saying. I think there were a few here who have said they have such an arrangement and I’m trying to figure out why. Perhaps I was reading that wrong though.  I don’t have a need for a nucleus so will likely use a scenario like you’ve described except adding a more budget Ethernet filter after the last fmc and before the streamer

I received my Muon system 3 days ago, it only has 20 hours burn in time, and I haven't put a switch yet between the router and the streamer, but wow!

Already, the sound is so much more natural. I was anxious it wouldn't do a big difference, it's counter intuitive to spend so much money on an ethernet filter. But it works, my streaming setup is no longer fatiguing, it makes all the difference. Now I can just sit back and enjoy the music, so for me it is worth every penny. I can't wait for my switch to arrive to see if there is anymore improvement on an already superb sounding setup.

Highly recommended to anyone that wants to remove the digital glare from the streaming chain.

That’s great news

very encouraging

I went a more budget route and just received a SOTM iso-Cat7 filter

haven’t plugged it in yet

Iso Cat7

Chassis grounding the fmc to an Entreq grounding device along with any switches you have improves things further.

@maurice89 

Already, the sound is so much more natural. I was anxious it wouldn't do a big difference, it's counter intuitive to spend so much money on an ethernet filter

Congratulations with your successful outcome.

Counter intuitive? It seems very logical and intuitive to me. Given all of the attention and concern with regard to Network noise/contamination, an effective passive filter is a rational solution. Actually it seems that it’d be more useful than a switch. I’m interested to read about your upcoming encounter with a network switch. The Muon appears to be the real deal.

Charles

@charles1dad

Yes the filter makes sense, but I meant it was counter intuive for me to spend so much for a filter. But I am glad I did!  I will report when I receive the switch.

Best

@maurice89 

👍

Charles

@charles1dad

I know you’re in midst of setting up your streaming setup. Thought I chime in with my recent experiment with the Ethernet network. I’ve been using mesh network in my audio room for few years now, mainly due to my modem being more centrally located in my 3 story home. I always wanted to go direct wired connection between my streamer and modem for obvious reasons as wire being more secure, faster consistent speeds and Wi-FI routers prone to injecting both RFI/EMI interferences in your immediate environment. I recently removed my mesh network between my streamer and Xfinity modem that supports upto 1GB/s speeds and the results were not subtle, actually quite stellar. Frankly, I wasn’t expecting this level of improvement, given my Xfinity network speed. Well, removing mesh network pods was like opening the floodgates. The immediate jump in realism, level of details and separation with instruments and voices…WOW!

I know running a long wire from modem may not be ideal for many but MAN, if you could do it, you’re in a for a royal treat. Thank to @pokey77 for recommending LINKUP LAN, this cable is stupendously good for the money. I believe LINKUP is better than Supra CAT 8, not only in build quality but also in sound. Much more organic, natural and none of the edginess (brightness) you hear slightly with Supra CAT 8. I bought a 50FT run plus Ethernet Coupler to connect my modem and M12 Switch.

My recommendation would be to use LINKUP LAN from your modem to Muon Pro Filter + Muon LAN pigtail into your Streamer.

@lalitk did you ever demo the sotm switch? 

@lalitk What mesh system were you using? Did you power it with an LPS?

For everyone, getting rid of wifi, going to hard wired is great upgrade for many reasons given here and elsewhere. But instead of using long ethernet cable from modem, use long coax, coax much less susceptible to emi/rfi. The filters work in part because rifi leakage into our ethernet cables. Hopefully Rich Truss will see this and speak to this leakage issue.

Caught my miss. What I meant to say, long coax to modem, short ethernet to router, this versus long ethernet to router. Bottom line bring modem to router, even to point of having ISP coming into listening room, this is my setup.

@rareace

I was using a pair of Apple Extreme that doesn’t have DC input to facilitate outboard LPS. Based on what I’m hearing, I’m never going back to any Wi-Fi routers installation in my dedicated room. This is easily one of the best $115 tweaks in my streaming setup. Whoever says digital streaming cannot rival CD or Vinyl playback, well they haven’t really explored all the possibilities.

@jerryg123

Not yet. I thought prioritizing the network path first is more important than bringing another switch. Turns out, I was spot on. Looking back, I wish I’d done this sooner :-)

@sns

Turns out, atleast in my setup; a separate router or mesh network is absolutely unnecessary. My Xfinity modem/router (50FT) away from my audio room clocks in >700Mb/s speed over Wi-Fi.

@lalitk 

@charles1dad 

The Linkup Cat 8 cable pictured above is what I've been using for over one year now. As Lalit says, it is better than Supra 8+. For me, it is no contest, Linkup is superior; better bandwidth, smoother and more revealing, and above all, musical. I also use if for my connection to my TV and it also results in better PQ and SQ.

Lalit, glad you had such great success with the Linkup cable. Really great news.

BTW, I deployed a Shunyata Hydra 6 power conditioner that is probably 12-15 years old on the network side of my system powering the router, 1 Gbs fiber endpoint coming into the house, and ER + Paul Hynes LPS (router/modem is in another room about 15-20' away) and this brought about a very nice and noticeable sound quality improvement. Makes me want to try a better more modern power conditioner, but I'll work on other areas of the network first.

Combo modem/router may or may not be best, who can say without direct comparison. I'd still advocate individuals at least try  modem and router close to audio system, hard wired with quality ethernet cable. Compare the two and report. While I've not done wifi to ethernet comparison in years, the modem and router close to system paid off big time, one of the biggest improvements for network, and I've conducted a ton of network experiments. Long ethernet cables not the way to go, long coax, short ethernet best, other advantage is higher quality ethernet cable becomes more affordable.

@sns I’ve conducted a ton of network experiments. Long ethernet cables not the way to go, long coax, short ethernet best,

I have heard from others making this same recommendation. And yet others suggesting long Ethernet cable runs such as @lalitk . As is typical for High End audio, a variety of ways to skin the cat. I recognize each can be very successful depending upon the circumstances. Audio streaming is a prime example of alternative roads leading toward a destination.

Charles

@charles1dad Other than listening comparisons, which I've obviously done, here are the issues at hand.

Coax has less signal loss over longer distances vs ethernet. Coax more resistant to emi/rfi intrusion. Plus you get advantage of using top flight ethernet cable for entire network, I'd never spend the kind of money 50', 25', whatever long lengths of Audioquest Vodka would cost, price this length of the Vodka and see!

@lalitk thanks for the update. My network path is clean as a whistle and may beat you to it. Thinking about pulling the trigger this week, Have some business in Charolette, this week. Also giving the Silent Angel some thought. 

@sns

No one is suggesting to spend crazy money on a AQ Vodka 50’, 25’ run. Let me reiterate what I said in one of my earlier post to @charles1dad

“My recommendation would be to use LINKUP LAN from your modem to Muon Pro Filter + Muon LAN pigtail into your Streamer”.

The cost here is $115 for a very high quality 50FT LAN cable plus Muon Filter which comes with a captive LAN on streamer end. This solution if it works for @charles1dad, keeps his gorgeous audio room clutter free (no modem or router with LPS in his audio room).

In my case, if I follow your suggestion by moving the Xfinity modem to my audio room (3rd floor) to keep short LAN to my switch (next to my streamer)…the problem with this scenario, it weakens the Wi-Fi signal to my devices on 1st floor. Keeping my modem on 2nd floor is most effective way to serve 30 plus devices that are operating on Wi-Fi signal. As I said numerous times, each of us have unique needs and priorities. We are here to share our experiences for our readers. We can only hope, they learn from our trials and adapt to what may works better in their unique environment. I always try to take the approach of less is more and it has served me very well.

BTW, Ethernet LAN cables are good upto 100 meters….zero latency. And the shielded LAN‘s are immune to EMI/RFI interferences.

“My network path is clean as a whistle and may beat you to it.”
@jerryg123 

I am happy for you. Looking forward to learn more about your next project. 

@lalitk Perhaps I'm not finding exact product you're pointing to, but all I can find on Linkup is ethernet cables. They may call them LAN cables, LAN cables are in actual fact eithernet cables, theirs are shielded which is simply CAT 7 and CAT 8 ethernet cables. Certainly the cables themselves are immune to RFI, issue is connectors is how rfi enters, rfi rides the gound on these cables to next component in chain. Coax eliminates this. Please inform me to actual product in case I'm not looking in correct place.

Now, if this LAN cable is indeed actual cat 7 or 8 ethernet the issue of  getting wifi to rest of house solved by connecting second router to primary router, primary router located in listening room, secondary router located wherever in house connected by cheapo etherenet/LAN cable, this supplies wifi to rest of house.

With setup I'm speaking of, you not only have the short runs of LAN/ethernet cables, but you're also entirely isolating audio network from wifi and rfi contamination.

Again, please inform me if LINkup has some new fangled cable I'm not aware of, if this true could be nice alternative.

@sns ​​​​@lalitk 

I appreciate both of your comments and impressions. Both of you speak from genuine hands on and listening experiences. As has been readily understood, much of this is individual circumstances influenced. So naturally different solutions for varying situations.

I have a 2 story (4600SF) plus  a finish basement (3rd level) where my audio system resides. My modem and separate router are in a 1st floor library. Bill (grannyring) has suggested a high quality modem/router combo unit and this is very appealing for me. Broadcom chip rather than Intel chip (sns 😊).

I am leaning toward this combo unit in my audio room connected via the Muon filter system to the audio streaming component (Yet to be chosen). This for for me would be a very simple yet effective and clean ethernet network circuit. My thought is the Muon is sufficient and would eliminate the need for a switch (Which entails another box/LAN cable/LPS/power cable). I just prefer simple.😊

Charles

One can get fine sound quality with top line streamers and dacs, this even with less than optimal networks. This based on latik and many other's experience, mine as well. We are talking marginal gains with most of these 'in the weeds' network optimizations, these are the sort of things you do when main components in streaming chain taken care of. So what you have is the usual thing when adding several marginal gains together, that being very meaningful improvements at highest levels of resolution/transparency.

And there is in fact and will probably always be multiple paths towards network optimization. I don't doubt for a second the benefits of products like Telegartner switch, Network Acoustics Muon. There is no doubt I'd be using  one or both  if having gone in different direction with my streamer. Eliminating noise on network pays off handsomely, based on reports from respected individuals both are excellent devices and deserving of placement in best audio systems. See, we can agree!

“Certainly the cables themselves are immune to RFI, issue is connectors is how rfi enters, rfi rides the gound on these cables to next component in chain.”
@sns 

If I understand your comment, a 50FT or a short run LAN/Ethernet cables are both susceptible to RFI through its connectors. So in your setup, how does a modem or router fed by a Coax cable with a short LAN cable eliminates the possibility of RFI riding through the connectors of that short LAN cable? What I am missing?  For clarity, I do not have any router/modem type of device in my audio room. 

You may know this, the M12 type connectors on my Telegartner M12 Gold switch and LAN cables offers industry best noise reduction.

Here is a link to LINKUP Ethernet cable you asked for, 

@lalitk 

Are similar noise reduction connectors used for the Muon products?
Charles  

@charles1dad

I believe Muon Pro is now using Telegartner MFP8 Cat.8.1 connectors which are very good but probably not good as M12 X-coded connector. The M12 X-coded connectors are designed exclusively for M12 ethernet switch.

@lalitk 

Thanks.

Folks, here is another option to optically isolate your Ethernet (RJ45) based setups. I’ve asked my dealer @gestalt to secure Optical Bridge as soon as it becomes available in North America. The OPT Bridge, powered by my JCAT OPTIMO 3 DUO LPS will be placed ahead of my Telegartner M12 switch.

Total noob with this side of stereo and streaming, so hope I don't annoy anyone with simple questions.

Is it better to have both the cable modem and the wifi router as close to your equipment as possible, or should the two be separated some distance?

I've always had them next to each other in the basement, and mainly use wifi but I want to move towards wire cabling from basement to the stereo (ethernet?) and then contend with it from there. 

It seems like a more expensive GigaFOILv4 

@mitch2 no not at all the OPT bridge is fiber optic conversion/isolation. The Gigafoil is and expensive version of galvanic isolatior like the Ever Star products. 

No?