Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System vs SGC Optical Isolation System

Thanks for the prompt reply. Unfortuneately, the reference model unaffordable forme. What was the Innuos device of your friend's that you guys compared it to? Jeff

I wish I was home where I could give a breakdown. I have used the EXT 1 and also the ref unit. Both are amazing and better than any of the optical devices or the medical filters I’ve used. They just make the music more correct. I think the ref one may lower jitter too as it take my digital as close to analog as I’ve heard it in my room. There is a significant jump when going to the ref unit. If one can afford going that route, you should.  If you can only afford the entry level unit, don’t hesitate. A buddy brought over his innuos device and the ref unit was preferred as it gives a much darker background and with the Vandy Quatro’s, the micro and macro detail was better than I’ve heard even when I was auditioning more expensive DACs. It doesn’t change the sound of the dac as all so if you live the signature, this just gives you more. Not sure how to describe it as I’ve never heard any digital device do what this does and that includes external clocks.  

@ctsooner : Did you get the Waversa unit in yet? I value your assessment of it compared to the Gigafoil V4. Good listening. Jeff

I know this thread is old, but it's still relevant.  My system consists of Vandersteen Quatro CT speakers on granite plinths, Matching Vandersteen M5 amps, Brinkmann Nyquist MK2 DAC with streamer, The Music Player server/streamer (nearly all high res music and DSD) into the DAC, Audioquest Niagara 3000 conditioner, 2 dedicated, individually grounded power circuits with the amps and Niagara plugged directly into the AQ Niagara outlets.  Power cord from outlet to Niagara is the AQ Dragon and the other units all have the AQ high power Hurricane cords. The balanced interconnect is the AQ Fire (upgrading to the new ones once I sell my Fire and Horizon interconnects). Speaker cable is 3' run of AQ William Tell Silver.  I go router directly out via WireWorld Platinum ethernet into a medical filter for EMI/RF into the Laufer Memory Player using another run of WireWorld Platinum. 

I've had many optical isolation units in the system over the years.  Some were the 'upgraded' audiophile switches etc... and some were the all in one boxes that friends have brought over. I run the router and modem off a dedicated LPS, but honestly I don't hear a difference from that at all.  

I just placed an order for the Gigafoil V4 based on a few friends with reference Vandersteen systems as they love how it's lowered the noise floor etc...  It's a really nice upgrade for around 1k when you add shipping, an LPS (a must from what I've heard at a buddy's house) and power cord for LPS if you go that route.  I then remembered that Waversa makes an under 1k passive unit that uses a magnet and some other tech that does even more than just lower the noise floor. I have no idea how it will sound as it's not here yet.  I spoke with John at Waversa and it's already in the mail.  I'll be sharing my thoughts once I get it in and really broken in.  I'll keep reading threads on the net about filters etc..., but no matter which way you go, it seems like the EMI/RF nasty's really degrade digital sound.  

I can say that a few of the one box optical devices has added timing errors (jitter) and that's also a concern.  The biggest question about this whole thing is why am I so neurotic about my digital?  lol....I need the best digital possibly as I can no longer play my albums as my MS makes it too difficult to constantly get up, clean and play albums.  I have an awesome system and need it to have awesome digital which I feel I already do. Basic tweak time. 

I agree simple MAY be best, all depends on implementation. If one doesn't have good filtering, clocks, PS on essential network components, these will have to be supplied via add ons.

Here is example of simple and optimized network. Modem with internal lps> router with attention paid to noise suppression and OXCO clock> streamer with built in NET filter and optimal rendering via any optimized port>dac. Optimal streamer network via three boxes! Expect long time or never for this fantasy modem, still waiting for this router, already have the net filters within streamers solved.

simple seems to sound best”

@mitch2  👍

+2 😊

Charles

“simple seems to sound best”

@mitch2  👍

Splitting Hairs

I will get this figured out someday. Right now, simple seems to sound best; starting with modem and router (both powered by HD Plex LPS), then 45 feet of CAT 8 to Bonn switch (powered by LPS) then Network Acoustics muon LAN cable from switch to muon filter, then captive muon LAN cable from muon filter to Mojo server, then muon USB cable from server to Mojo DAC. This sounds better than any other front end configuration so far, even without the optical isolation.

Here is my finalized network setup. It uses a generic switch and generic FO converters. I found the final tuning came down to cabling, nothing outrageous, just good old trusty Pangea! Results : blackest background, spacious soundstage, boat-loads of air, transparency to source, and completely fatigue free listening. Nine little boxes, but who is counting because it works!

01-23-2023 at 02:23pm

@mitch2 got it sorry..

Thank you @charles1dad for the response, and other replies.  Learning a lot about the 'in house' side of getting things best established for streaming.

I typically use wifi to stream from computer to Black Ice FX DAC, or to a Chromecast Ultra HD puck to stream audio and video to TV; and then thru Toslink into the DAC. I am wondering if I should be moving the cable modem closer to the audio system, (it's like 3-4' away) and then using the Ethernet out to the Chromecast Ultra which has an Ethernet in thru their power adapter (odd, I know).  I 'feel' like I am getting some very high end glare or high frequency sort of whistle regardless of streaming method or DAC, leading me to wonder if it's from the wifi/modem/cable integration to begin with?  

Very helpful info about the ground loop potential with distant set ups.  That made a ton of sense.

@sns

With close to audio system setup I can use my already installed dedicated power lines, power conditioner, also running network components on separate AC lines may promote noise from ground loops, generally we want all components in audio system to be on same circuit, less noise with grounding potential differences. I’ve tried modems/routers and/or LPS on different AC lines, diminished sound quality, although this could have been attributed to other variables.

This approach is eminently logical.

Charles

Obviously the same number of LAN/ethernet cables so possibility of rfi entry through connectors exactly the same. The differences are more signal loss with long runs of ethernet vs coax, also best quality LAN/ethernet cable becomes affordable with close to system placement. Now if one doesn't believe ethernet cables sound different that doesn't matter. I and many others hear differences in ethernet cables so it matters to us.

Now I can see  a possible competitor to close modem/router setup in going to optical conversion close to modem/router, long optical better than long ethernet. This issue then becomes all the peripherals, therefore, lps, power cables, power conditioning used with modem/router. I've found quality of AC/DC cables, LPS, and power conditioning to affect sound quality. With close to audio system setup I can use my already installed dedicated power lines, power conditioner, also running network components on separate AC lines may promote noise from ground loops, generally we want all components  in audio system to be on same circuit, less noise with grounding potential differences. I've tried modems/routers and/or LPS on different AC lines, diminished sound quality, although this could have been attributed to other variables.

Nope close modem/router is best and not that costly to implement. Two options here, DIY or technician runs long coax to listening room or have ISP  entry to listening room. In either case wifi can be run from second router connected to unmanaged or managed router, that router can be placed in best location for whole house wifi, this means no wifi/rfi noise on audio system network. So add up advantages, shorter higher quality LAN cables, less signal loss LAN vs Coax, ability to use same AC circuit for network, no chance for AC ground loops, finally best quality power conditioning via audio system PC.

@jerryg123

The GigaFOILv4–INLINE is the newest generation of the FOIL™ brand of Ethernet filters. Based on patented Fiber Optic Isolation Link (“FOIL”) technology, the GigaFOILv4–INLINE utilizes fiber optics and specially designed circuitry to prevent 99.99999999% of electromagnetic interference (“EMI”) from passing through the filter. The filter covers a frequency range of below 14kHz to beyond 18GHz and does not require a passband, meaning the only signal passing through the filter is the clean digital Ethernet signal.

FOIL = Fiber Optic Isolation Link

@amtprod 

Is it better to have both the cable modem and the wifi router as close to your equipment as possible, or should the two be separated some distance?

There is not a consensus regarding this. Some very knowledgeable audio streamers advocate close proximity to the audio system and others advocate remote separation.Both sides report excellent sonic outcomes. Once again, implementation is key.

Charles

@mitch2 no not at all the OPT bridge is fiber optic conversion/isolation. The Gigafoil is and expensive version of galvanic isolatior like the Ever Star products. 

No?

It seems like a more expensive GigaFOILv4 

Total noob with this side of stereo and streaming, so hope I don't annoy anyone with simple questions.

Is it better to have both the cable modem and the wifi router as close to your equipment as possible, or should the two be separated some distance?

I've always had them next to each other in the basement, and mainly use wifi but I want to move towards wire cabling from basement to the stereo (ethernet?) and then contend with it from there. 

Folks, here is another option to optically isolate your Ethernet (RJ45) based setups. I’ve asked my dealer @gestalt to secure Optical Bridge as soon as it becomes available in North America. The OPT Bridge, powered by my JCAT OPTIMO 3 DUO LPS will be placed ahead of my Telegartner M12 switch.

@lalitk 

Thanks.

@charles1dad

I believe Muon Pro is now using Telegartner MFP8 Cat.8.1 connectors which are very good but probably not good as M12 X-coded connector. The M12 X-coded connectors are designed exclusively for M12 ethernet switch.

@lalitk 

Are similar noise reduction connectors used for the Muon products?
Charles  

“Certainly the cables themselves are immune to RFI, issue is connectors is how rfi enters, rfi rides the gound on these cables to next component in chain.”
@sns 

If I understand your comment, a 50FT or a short run LAN/Ethernet cables are both susceptible to RFI through its connectors. So in your setup, how does a modem or router fed by a Coax cable with a short LAN cable eliminates the possibility of RFI riding through the connectors of that short LAN cable? What I am missing?  For clarity, I do not have any router/modem type of device in my audio room. 

You may know this, the M12 type connectors on my Telegartner M12 Gold switch and LAN cables offers industry best noise reduction.

Here is a link to LINKUP Ethernet cable you asked for, 

One can get fine sound quality with top line streamers and dacs, this even with less than optimal networks. This based on latik and many other's experience, mine as well. We are talking marginal gains with most of these 'in the weeds' network optimizations, these are the sort of things you do when main components in streaming chain taken care of. So what you have is the usual thing when adding several marginal gains together, that being very meaningful improvements at highest levels of resolution/transparency.

And there is in fact and will probably always be multiple paths towards network optimization. I don't doubt for a second the benefits of products like Telegartner switch, Network Acoustics Muon. There is no doubt I'd be using  one or both  if having gone in different direction with my streamer. Eliminating noise on network pays off handsomely, based on reports from respected individuals both are excellent devices and deserving of placement in best audio systems. See, we can agree!

@sns ​​​​@lalitk 

I appreciate both of your comments and impressions. Both of you speak from genuine hands on and listening experiences. As has been readily understood, much of this is individual circumstances influenced. So naturally different solutions for varying situations.

I have a 2 story (4600SF) plus  a finish basement (3rd level) where my audio system resides. My modem and separate router are in a 1st floor library. Bill (grannyring) has suggested a high quality modem/router combo unit and this is very appealing for me. Broadcom chip rather than Intel chip (sns 😊).

I am leaning toward this combo unit in my audio room connected via the Muon filter system to the audio streaming component (Yet to be chosen). This for for me would be a very simple yet effective and clean ethernet network circuit. My thought is the Muon is sufficient and would eliminate the need for a switch (Which entails another box/LAN cable/LPS/power cable). I just prefer simple.😊

Charles

@lalitk Perhaps I'm not finding exact product you're pointing to, but all I can find on Linkup is ethernet cables. They may call them LAN cables, LAN cables are in actual fact eithernet cables, theirs are shielded which is simply CAT 7 and CAT 8 ethernet cables. Certainly the cables themselves are immune to RFI, issue is connectors is how rfi enters, rfi rides the gound on these cables to next component in chain. Coax eliminates this. Please inform me to actual product in case I'm not looking in correct place.

Now, if this LAN cable is indeed actual cat 7 or 8 ethernet the issue of  getting wifi to rest of house solved by connecting second router to primary router, primary router located in listening room, secondary router located wherever in house connected by cheapo etherenet/LAN cable, this supplies wifi to rest of house.

With setup I'm speaking of, you not only have the short runs of LAN/ethernet cables, but you're also entirely isolating audio network from wifi and rfi contamination.

Again, please inform me if LINkup has some new fangled cable I'm not aware of, if this true could be nice alternative.

“My network path is clean as a whistle and may beat you to it.”
@jerryg123 

I am happy for you. Looking forward to learn more about your next project. 

@sns

No one is suggesting to spend crazy money on a AQ Vodka 50’, 25’ run. Let me reiterate what I said in one of my earlier post to @charles1dad

“My recommendation would be to use LINKUP LAN from your modem to Muon Pro Filter + Muon LAN pigtail into your Streamer”.

The cost here is $115 for a very high quality 50FT LAN cable plus Muon Filter which comes with a captive LAN on streamer end. This solution if it works for @charles1dad, keeps his gorgeous audio room clutter free (no modem or router with LPS in his audio room).

In my case, if I follow your suggestion by moving the Xfinity modem to my audio room (3rd floor) to keep short LAN to my switch (next to my streamer)…the problem with this scenario, it weakens the Wi-Fi signal to my devices on 1st floor. Keeping my modem on 2nd floor is most effective way to serve 30 plus devices that are operating on Wi-Fi signal. As I said numerous times, each of us have unique needs and priorities. We are here to share our experiences for our readers. We can only hope, they learn from our trials and adapt to what may works better in their unique environment. I always try to take the approach of less is more and it has served me very well.

BTW, Ethernet LAN cables are good upto 100 meters….zero latency. And the shielded LAN‘s are immune to EMI/RFI interferences.

@lalitk thanks for the update. My network path is clean as a whistle and may beat you to it. Thinking about pulling the trigger this week, Have some business in Charolette, this week. Also giving the Silent Angel some thought. 

@charles1dad Other than listening comparisons, which I've obviously done, here are the issues at hand.

Coax has less signal loss over longer distances vs ethernet. Coax more resistant to emi/rfi intrusion. Plus you get advantage of using top flight ethernet cable for entire network, I'd never spend the kind of money 50', 25', whatever long lengths of Audioquest Vodka would cost, price this length of the Vodka and see!

@sns I’ve conducted a ton of network experiments. Long ethernet cables not the way to go, long coax, short ethernet best,

I have heard from others making this same recommendation. And yet others suggesting long Ethernet cable runs such as @lalitk . As is typical for High End audio, a variety of ways to skin the cat. I recognize each can be very successful depending upon the circumstances. Audio streaming is a prime example of alternative roads leading toward a destination.

Charles

Combo modem/router may or may not be best, who can say without direct comparison. I'd still advocate individuals at least try  modem and router close to audio system, hard wired with quality ethernet cable. Compare the two and report. While I've not done wifi to ethernet comparison in years, the modem and router close to system paid off big time, one of the biggest improvements for network, and I've conducted a ton of network experiments. Long ethernet cables not the way to go, long coax, short ethernet best, other advantage is higher quality ethernet cable becomes more affordable.

@lalitk 

@charles1dad 

The Linkup Cat 8 cable pictured above is what I've been using for over one year now. As Lalit says, it is better than Supra 8+. For me, it is no contest, Linkup is superior; better bandwidth, smoother and more revealing, and above all, musical. I also use if for my connection to my TV and it also results in better PQ and SQ.

Lalit, glad you had such great success with the Linkup cable. Really great news.

BTW, I deployed a Shunyata Hydra 6 power conditioner that is probably 12-15 years old on the network side of my system powering the router, 1 Gbs fiber endpoint coming into the house, and ER + Paul Hynes LPS (router/modem is in another room about 15-20' away) and this brought about a very nice and noticeable sound quality improvement. Makes me want to try a better more modern power conditioner, but I'll work on other areas of the network first.

@rareace

I was using a pair of Apple Extreme that doesn’t have DC input to facilitate outboard LPS. Based on what I’m hearing, I’m never going back to any Wi-Fi routers installation in my dedicated room. This is easily one of the best $115 tweaks in my streaming setup. Whoever says digital streaming cannot rival CD or Vinyl playback, well they haven’t really explored all the possibilities.

@jerryg123

Not yet. I thought prioritizing the network path first is more important than bringing another switch. Turns out, I was spot on. Looking back, I wish I’d done this sooner :-)

@sns

Turns out, atleast in my setup; a separate router or mesh network is absolutely unnecessary. My Xfinity modem/router (50FT) away from my audio room clocks in >700Mb/s speed over Wi-Fi.

Caught my miss. What I meant to say, long coax to modem, short ethernet to router, this versus long ethernet to router. Bottom line bring modem to router, even to point of having ISP coming into listening room, this is my setup.

For everyone, getting rid of wifi, going to hard wired is great upgrade for many reasons given here and elsewhere. But instead of using long ethernet cable from modem, use long coax, coax much less susceptible to emi/rfi. The filters work in part because rifi leakage into our ethernet cables. Hopefully Rich Truss will see this and speak to this leakage issue.

@lalitk What mesh system were you using? Did you power it with an LPS?

@lalitk did you ever demo the sotm switch? 

@charles1dad

I know you’re in midst of setting up your streaming setup. Thought I chime in with my recent experiment with the Ethernet network. I’ve been using mesh network in my audio room for few years now, mainly due to my modem being more centrally located in my 3 story home. I always wanted to go direct wired connection between my streamer and modem for obvious reasons as wire being more secure, faster consistent speeds and Wi-FI routers prone to injecting both RFI/EMI interferences in your immediate environment. I recently removed my mesh network between my streamer and Xfinity modem that supports upto 1GB/s speeds and the results were not subtle, actually quite stellar. Frankly, I wasn’t expecting this level of improvement, given my Xfinity network speed. Well, removing mesh network pods was like opening the floodgates. The immediate jump in realism, level of details and separation with instruments and voices…WOW!

I know running a long wire from modem may not be ideal for many but MAN, if you could do it, you’re in a for a royal treat. Thank to @pokey77 for recommending LINKUP LAN, this cable is stupendously good for the money. I believe LINKUP is better than Supra CAT 8, not only in build quality but also in sound. Much more organic, natural and none of the edginess (brightness) you hear slightly with Supra CAT 8. I bought a 50FT run plus Ethernet Coupler to connect my modem and M12 Switch.

My recommendation would be to use LINKUP LAN from your modem to Muon Pro Filter + Muon LAN pigtail into your Streamer.

@maurice89 

👍

Charles

@charles1dad

Yes the filter makes sense, but I meant it was counter intuive for me to spend so much for a filter. But I am glad I did!  I will report when I receive the switch.

Best

@maurice89 

Already, the sound is so much more natural. I was anxious it wouldn't do a big difference, it's counter intuitive to spend so much money on an ethernet filter

Congratulations with your successful outcome.

Counter intuitive? It seems very logical and intuitive to me. Given all of the attention and concern with regard to Network noise/contamination, an effective passive filter is a rational solution. Actually it seems that it’d be more useful than a switch. I’m interested to read about your upcoming encounter with a network switch. The Muon appears to be the real deal.

Charles

Chassis grounding the fmc to an Entreq grounding device along with any switches you have improves things further.

That’s great news

very encouraging

I went a more budget route and just received a SOTM iso-Cat7 filter

haven’t plugged it in yet

Iso Cat7

I received my Muon system 3 days ago, it only has 20 hours burn in time, and I haven't put a switch yet between the router and the streamer, but wow!

Already, the sound is so much more natural. I was anxious it wouldn't do a big difference, it's counter intuitive to spend so much money on an ethernet filter. But it works, my streaming setup is no longer fatiguing, it makes all the difference. Now I can just sit back and enjoy the music, so for me it is worth every penny. I can't wait for my switch to arrive to see if there is anymore improvement on an already superb sounding setup.

Highly recommended to anyone that wants to remove the digital glare from the streaming chain.

@toro3

yes that’s what I’m saying. I think there were a few here who have said they have such an arrangement and I’m trying to figure out why. Perhaps I was reading that wrong though.  I don’t have a need for a nucleus so will likely use a scenario like you’ve described except adding a more budget Ethernet filter after the last fmc and before the streamer

JS are you saying:

Ethernet > FMC > optical (10 meters) > FMC > Ethernet > Switch (?) > streamer

Here’s what I have:

Switch > Ethernet > FMC > optical > FMC > Ethernet (0.5”) > streamer (Roon end point)

One of the ports from the switch is then:

Switch [same switch as above] > Ethernet > Roon Nucleus server

Switch is needed in my case for server and streamer, but I’ve also heard on other threads that audiophile switches clean up the signal even more before the FMCs. I’m having the FMCs [essentially last FMC with LPS] clean up the signal after my generic switch and right before my streamer. I haven’t heard of adding a switch after FMC utilization, but perhaps people are? I’ll let more experienced people chime in if such is the case.

Just read through this whole thread again. Such a vault of great information!

I’m still gathering information on what route (no pun intended) I’m going to take on optimizing my network before my streamer.

I’m planning to upgrade my streamer soon...currently using an Ifi Zen Stream and likely going to invest in the new Pulse line from Innuos soon.

But first, I want to focus on the cabling to the streamer before doing that.

My options: Go cheap and get some fiber converters and some of those low priced ethernet filters from amazon...or do a step up from that with a Sonore Optical Module or...skip all that and get a N.A. Eno or something similar.

Also my initial upstream gear is basic modern and router from Spectrum on wall warts...so there is work to do there too.

I do have one question though that I can’t figure out the answer to. I’m not very well educated in ethernet networking and switches so ...my question is

Why are some of you utilizing a switch downstream right before the streamer?

For instance:

Say someone has a fiber converter at their router and then has 10 meters of optical cable going up to another fiber converter near the audio system. At that point they could run an ether cable out of the converter ...potentially employ some kind of ethernet filtering device and on into the streamer.

What purpose would a switch right there do? You go ethernet out of the converter into the switch and run the ethernet filter out from one of the ports on the switch into the streamer?

Thanks in advance

JS

Charles, my Technicolor model # is E31T2ul. My ISP is Spectrum, have up to 1gbps service available. Anyone can check on their modem quality via various modem rating services on web,

Getting modem and router close to system was impressive upgrade for me, makes much better cabling affordable and allows lps to be connected to power conditioning on dedicated AC. I also tried powering modem and router with lps to lithium ion battery pack, nice way to go if can't power with system power conditioner. Also, experimented with better power cords to these conditioners, smaller incremental improvements here, lps is the important thing.

While modem and router quality hasn't been a concern for audiophile streamers up to recent times, it has long been of concern to enterprise scale users, some of these users such as precision engineering and measurement devices rely on maximally jitter and noise free networks.

Installed my Netgear XR1000 today, much versatility with this router. Can monitor ping time, jitter, While doubtful I can change Spectrum server feeding my network still interesting to monitor this, may be able to play with various settings to improve, initially I'm getting A+ and A ratings for ping, this great for lowest jitter,  only B for speed, likely need 1gbps for A+ rating. Quality of service (QOS) has great configuratively, vast majority of band width being allocated to streamer and/or NAS, can leave relatively little for general service computers and other devices since upgrading service to 500mbps. With 1gb I could allocate even larger percentage and still maintain decent speed with the other devices. I'm also turning off wifi either permanently or minimally when running audio system streaming. I can either hard wire every wifi device in house off second router or use wifi capabilities of the second router. Issue here is not sure second router can be run in wifi mode when connected to primary router with wifi turned off, second router may not see wireless devices on network in this mode. I should get to bottom of this in next day or two. Running router with wifi turned off somewhat replicates a switch but with IP addressing abilitiy. One thing missing is the nice clocks the best audiophile switches have, self generated noise should be greatly diminished via lps power and wifi turned off. A switch is superfluous with my JCAT net card  with it's two ethernet ports in any case, this card provides the high quality clocking a switch would provide.

@sns 

You comments about ISP made me curious as my provider is Xfinity. They offer a modem/router tri-band 1 GB unit called XFi Advanced Gateway manufactured by Technicolor. I assume that this may be similar to your unit. 
Charles